SilverCU3

I know some of you have been thinking about fitting the Euro front lip to your TSX's. In Europe, this is available as part of the standard-fit bodykit on some CU versions and includes additional side panels and a rear diffuser style bumper. I found these pics of an Australian car fitted with the front lip only - I know it's a matter of opinion, but I think it looks wrong without the rest of the kit.

EUROBRO

Yeah that's definitely an Australian model, the plate's same colour as mine, same state! I would only get it if i am also getting the Modulo side skirt and the rear bumper, hence why i haven't actually got it yet, because that would cost me about 1.5 or so not installed

SilverCU3

Given your suspension, I think ground clearance would be an issue with the front lip.

chibianh

I think if you just had the front lip, having mud guards would also help with the way it flows.

HeavyDuty

What's the purpose of these posts? Post count?

Please, add to a thread or stop cluttering them.

chibianh, that's a good point. There have been examples of front lips only where they don't look out of place, but I agree the mud guards (standard dealer installed optional equipment around here) would soften the look of a front lip.

SilverCU3

I guess colour would make a difference, too. Light colours accentuate individual body lines whereas darker colours tend to look more, ummm, more of a 'whole' and less specific.

Looks odd without the front fogs, too!

SilverCU3

HeavyDuty, what size are your wheels and tyres?? I thought the TL bolt pattern was different to the TSX.

09TSXTech

3G TL has the same bolt pattern as TSX - PCD 5 x 114.3, the 4G TL has 5 x 120.

The TL-S wheels is 17 x 8

SilverCU3

thanks

HeavyDuty

Yeah, whut he said. =)

(The '08 TL-S wheels are 1/2" wider (17X8) but TireRack.com and DiscountTiresDirect.com list the 225/50/17 as the correct tire for a 7.5" *or* 8.0" wheel.)

SilverCU3

Are they 55mm offset - same as stock TSX??

HeavyDuty

Hmm, dunno. Anyone?

If you look at the pics in my gallery, you can see how they fill out the fenderwell more flush than the stockies.

The offset could be the same (+55) but the location of the barrel changes with the width too.

09TSXTech

^^ Part # 42700-SEP-A61

Offset is 45 vs the stock which is 55. That's why HD's look more flush (figuratively speaking of course).

SilverCU3

I did a quick search and the TL-S wheels are 8x18 and ET45. That extra 10mm makes a big difference to the look, plus the tyres look better on the bigger rim. I'm not sure that I'd choose that style, but they certainly look better than my stock rims!

I've been trying to find non-OEM 18s or 19s with something approaching the stock 55mm offset but the closest I can find are RonJons at 52mm. As I live in the UK, these would be hugely expensive for me so the next closest option are Momo FXL-Ones with 50mm offset. However, if I go to 45mm then the choice is massive.

Question is, would there be any clearance issues with ET45 and 235/45x18 or 235/40x19 tyres with stock ride height? Euro Accords have 8x18(ET55) with 235/45x18s as stock and 45mm offset would protrude an additional 10mm - but they already seem to be on the limit with regard to clearance.

Why can't wheel manufacturers just make wheels with the right 55mm offset!!

EUROBRO

ground clearance was a worry when i had the stock 18 inc wheels, because the tein sussy made the car really low, but now with the 20inch my car's height's actually pretty high again so if i really wanted to, a kit shouldn't be too much of a problem

SilverCU3

EUROBRO, you're in Australia, aren't you? Don't you have some law which says you can't increase wheel diameter by more than a certain amount?

I had a quick look at a GT version of the Euro Accord (the one with the front lip fitted) and it doesn't seem to decrease the ground clearance by very much - maybe a 1/2" or so. It sits quite flush to the existing metalwork and protrudes forward far more than it does downwards.

HeavyDuty

Thanks for the p/n & offset, tech.

Our cars take a fairly high offset. Some other cars may do the same, but many others aren't as high. A typical manufacturer uses a 'middle of the road' offset that fits as many apps as possible. As a result, many fitments are so-so and not app specific (too sucked in, stick out a little too much.)

You'd be *amazed* at the difference 1mm can make on a fitment, particularly on a lowered car. (i.e. Volk 17x7.5 +43 vs another manufacturers+42 on a 96-00 Civic.)

This reduces tool-up costs and allows them to fit a broader range of cars without a bunch of different offsets to produce & warehouse.

That's why manufacturers like RonJon are H/A specific not only from an offset standpoint but the ID of the hub is an exact H/A fit, too.

Also, the spoke or wheel design and how it impacts larger brakes (see Derwood's post about his Rotora's) is a HUGE consideration. If he had Konig's and not RonJon's, he might have been hosed.

SilverCU3

I understand all of that and, from a business perspective, it makes perfect sense. It just sucks that I have to pay so much money to get a compromise!

My experience is that correct offset is vital when it comes to handling, steering response, etc ... as well as longevity of hub bearings.

I mean, it's not like there's just a few mm's difference between stock and aftermarket wheels for the Accord (TSX) - even 'quality' manufacturers feel that an additional 10mm on offset is an acceptable alternative to stock.

Does the extra 10mm offset and 1/2" rim width make any difference to the way your car drives?

HeavyDuty

You know, it may just be in my head, but the 08 TL-S 17x8 wheels with my stock tires vs the 17x7.5 stock wheels made a noticeable difference in tracking on my car.

I wasn't doing it thinking it would improve the steering feel, but it appeared to be a unexpected benefit.

The vendor here HeelToe posted a pic of a TSX (for us to see a CF plug cover) and I noticed that it had a hydraulic p/s system vs ours which is electric.

I'm curious, Is yours hydro or electric?

SilverCU3

I'm not surprised that those wheels made a difference to the feel of your car, although I am surprised that the tracking improved with the increase in offset. The tyre sidewalls are slightly stiffer and the contact patch is changed due to the wider rim width so that would improve turn-in. I know it's only a small change, but the Accord (TSX) is highly sensitive to steering geometry changes.

UK Accords have an electric assist system for the steering and it's not too good. It's very slow to respond to steering input and, when it does finally respond, it seems to weight up far too quickly. With the additional mass of the diesel motor up-front, the steering feels very 'artificial' and ponderous. My last Accord (TSX) had a hydraulic system and it was far better. The steering on this car swings between over-assistance to under-assistance in a hearbeat and makes the car feel a lot heavier than it really is at times. And the 50 series tyres don't help! The 45 profiles on the Type S remove a lot of the weird steering feeling.

What's needed is a user-friendly tyre shop who's willing to spend a day trying different wheels and tyres with a test drive after each swap

09TSXTech

I checked the UK website and all Accord there has EPS which is what we have. May be Marcus was using a 1G model to give us an example of the final product.

HeavyDuty

Using Tech's quoted offsets and widths, I picked up 10mm outboard with 10mm less + offset, but also an increase of 1/2" in overall width, so I picked up 11.5mm in increased track per side?

(I just divided the offset difference by 2 = 5mm and divided the increase in width equaling 1/4" = ~6.5mm.)

Is it early or does that math sound right to you guys?

I agree the EPS takes a little getting used to, CU3, but it got a lot better with these wheels.

Tech, yeah, I agree about the EPS/hydro, that's why I asked Marcus and CU3. It would be odd to have both systems simultaneously, but you never know.

SilverCU3

HeavyDuty, your math is fine but the principle isn't quite right. Track width is measured between the centre point of each tyre's contact patch, i.e., measure the tyre width, divide by 2 to find the centre of the contact patch, and then measure between the n/s & o/s contact patch centre points. This is the track width. Using this principle, your track has increased by 20mm (2x10mm).

Changing the rim or tyre width (or both) doesn't alter the track, but changing offset or fitting spacers does. Increasing the offset number causes the exact same changes to handling and bearing load that fitting wheel spacers of the same width would (assuming equal weight wheels/tyres).

Decreasing the offset number reduces the negative scrub radius, thereby increasing steering kickback, creating instability during acceleration & braking, and reducing spring rate. As a down side, it also increases bearing load.

The EPS certainly is a strange thing, and not really conducive to a sporty feel.

09TSXTech

Using the wheel offset calculator on the web http://www.1010tires.com/WheelOffsetCalculator.asp

HD's wheels 17 x 8 ET 45 vs stock 17 x 7.5 ET 55

The inner clearance (the inside of the wheel to the strut housing) is 4mm more.

The outer cleanance (position of the outside edge of the wheel) is 16 mm more.

So that's why HD's TL-S rim looks as flush as mine with 15mm spacers in the rear.

Some of CU3 comments are the reasons why I left my front end alone for the moment.

09TSXTech

Using the same calculator as above, I calculate Darren's Ron Jon which is 19 x 8 ET 48

The inner clearance (the inside of the wheel to the strut housing) is only 1 mm more.

Which means HD you can safely install BBK on your car.

The outer cleanance (position of the outside edge of the wheel) is 13 mm more.

SilverCU3

09TSXTECH, it's important to remember that different makes of tyres vary considerably in actual section width, even though they are nominally the same. This matters a lot when calculating offsets so it's always best to allow a safety margin.

I took a few quick measurements under my car and there's a massive amount of strut/tyre clearance at the rear end. So, given that your stock wheels with 15mm spacers still clear the bodywork, I reckon it's possible to fit 285/30x19 (or 285/35x18) tyres with a 10J/ET65 wheel. No body mods would be needed and it could be lowered as much as you want. Anyone care to try it?

If you're thinking of altering the spec. of your front end, why not fit your 15mm spacers to the front and see how it drives? Theory is one thing but, at the end of the day, it's how it actually feels which matters. HeavyDuty has shown that forcing the track outwards improves upon the dead feeling of the EPS, and the spacers will show what clearance is actually available at the front.

I'd be really interested to hear the result of that experiment

EUROBRO

Yeah there is law about plus sizing here... But the truth is that would involve way too much mathematics for any police and quite frankly so many people do it that very unlikely you'll be pulled over by the police just for that unless it's unreasonably big, plus 20 on euro honestly doesn't look that big at all.

And also I'm actually in the work of getting custom tyre placard done to replace my existing one and on it would say the stock size is 19 instead of 18 and the tyre load rating would also be lower to accommodate the new wheels

HeavyDuty

When I was thinking about track, I was thinking outside or overall width. In the grand scheme of things, I see where the centerline and mouting surface come into play more so than overall. Cool, I learned something.

I don't have anything but a butt gyro to go on with respect to the changed track and improved feel. It did feel less dead on center but mostly I enjoyed the decreased darty-ness at speed. It was so damned sensitive that it required too much concentration to reduce the input to maintain a lane or not oversteer & over-correct when changing lanes. Does that make sense?

CU3's idea would be a worthwhile experiment, Tech, considering all we have to do is wait for you to do the work. =)

Oh, and Tech, check out the uber-scientific 1.5 knuckle clearance between the inside spokes of the TL-S wheels and the stock calipers. https://acurazine.com/forums/album.p...pictureid=8107

When I fitted these wheels, it wasn't that I was in love with them, but I did like the thought of additional width and I knew they had killer brake clearance if I got around to testing TL-S Brembo's for a hand-me-down. Besides, they were just sitting in the garage.

SilverCU3

EUROBRO, I guess your police are like our's in the UK. It's too much trouble seeking out technical infringements - it's far more lucrative to go chasing excess speed.

HD, the changes you describe make perfect sense. No matter what the theory says, the ultimate test is how the car feels to you.

The only problem with non-scientific, objective testing is that you tend to 'want' the change to be an improvement. It's a bit like when you clean your car and it takes 2 seconds off the 0-60 time

I know you guys are craving the diesel TSX but, take it from me, the nose-heavy feeling is even worse in the diesel and, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any suspension kits available for it yet. The only thing in it's favour (aside from better fuel economy) is the ability to easily extract more torque and power due to the turbo installation.

09TSXTech

Well you guys have provided a strong argument , so I ordered another set of 15mm spacers for the front wheels. It should be here within a week or so. I just don't feel like taking the rear ones off and install them in the front.

HD, I liked your most scientific approach in measurement

SilverCU3

Tech, is it too late to change your order for the spacers? I'm thinking that fitting a 15mm spacer gives you the equivalent of an ET40 wheel, which may be too much for the front. It would also give the same appearance as the stock set-up because you'd no longer have a relatively higher offset on the back. Wouldn't a 5mm spacer keep a better balance? i.e., a 10mm differential between front and rear spacing?

I was also thinking that your Rages are the exact same size as the stock wheels (7.5+225+ET55), so the 5mm & 10mm spacers could be used on those, too, when they go back on.

Does this mean we can look forward to four back-to-back evaluations for stock wheels, stock + spacers, Rages, and Rages + spacers??

09TSXTech

I did look at 5 mm and 10 mm spacers but they require the replacement of the stock studs. Too much hassle.

HD's TL-S rims 17 x 8 ET 45 has the same effective outer cleanance (position of the outside edge of the wheel) -16 mm as putting on a 15mm spacers on stock rim. I will report back as soon as the spacers are installed. I won't put the Rage back on till Spring, it's -1 degree Celsius (30 F for our American friends) outside at the moment.

SilverCU3

Ahhh, so the 15mm spacers have their own studs built-in ... I get it.

Looking forward to the results!

SilverCU3

I did some research re. the Honda sports suspension you fitted and it's an option on UK Accords, too. Although the UK brochure states 'sports suspension' as stock, it's not the same as the one you fitted. Your version lowers our stock 'sports suspension' by 20mm in the case of all models, and by 12mm in the case of the Type S. I can only assume that the 20mm measurement is against the base model dimensions and because the 235/45 Type S tyres are 16mm greater in diameter (8mm radius) than lesser models, the calculation is ((20mm drop, less 8mm additional radius, equals 12mm drop over base models))

stinkysab

That euro lip makes the car alot more sporty. Looks clean.