jrdecat

So my timing belt melted - yes melted while my wife was driving to work 2 weeks ago in our 2000 Acura TL (non type S) with 126k miles. I was gone to Alaska working on a commercial fishing operation so the auto shop took full advantage of the situation to screw us over. As you can see from the pics, one of the pulleys/idlers is actually melted to the timing belt and the pulley from the H20 pump came off as well.
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The shop replaced the pump and timing belt for $1400 and now they're telling me that I have bent valves and need a valve job...so the grand total will be about $4800. While still in Alaska I called these guys and asked about swapping out the engine. They told me that they couldn't find one and that the only place to get one would be to get one new from Acura for $7k. Well now I'm home and made 3 phone calls to wrecking yards. Within 15 minutes I located an '02 engine from a CL with 81k miles. It has been compression tested and tested out at 220-225 and also comes with a 6 month warranty. Oh yah, the engine is going to cost me $400. So these people lied to me, charged me $1400, and my car still doesn't run. This weekend my uncle and I will be learning how to replace an engine in an Acura TL.

Does anyone have any advice / recommendations? I definitely will be purchasing a repair manual, but I'm not sure which one will be the best. I'm pretty good at wrenching, but have never done a swap before. My uncle has experience swapping, but I'm still taking all the advice I can get.

Feel free to chime in and laugh, help, encourage, or advise...maybe all of the above.

phee

iTrader: (5)

Rent a hoist. It's simple. You will need transmission fluid because it will leak when you remoe the trans. The engine has a plastic cover under it by the transmission. Remove that cover and you will have access to the bolts that hold the flex plate to the torque converter.

Pm me if you need help

jrdecat

Thank you very much for the tip. Any advice on a particular brand of repair manual? I appreciate the invite to PM for help, but I am a new member and won't be able to PM for 15 days. I hope to be installing this thing this weekend. Are we unrealistic to think this can be done in a weekend and with less than a 30 pack of beer?

01tl4tl

as a former member of the auto shop industry:
They owe you a refund
If I read correctly it did stop running while being driven? correct?
Any good shop knows these are zero clearance engines, meaning if the timing belt breaks while running it will bend a valve or 3,
and depending on what rpm it happened and how long it continued to run afterwards- could have damaged rod bearings and more.
Those pics are pretty dramatic and should convince others of the need to stick to 105 or less for tbelt life
I have see bent valve turn into new heads real quick

When the car came in not running, and visual showed condition of parts that should have been replaced at 105k miles- next step would be the non destructive testing by `cylinder pressure leakdown`
That would have told them it had a leaking valve or more than one- which changes the work needed to include remove heads and inspect valve damage- as you remove many of the same parts for water pump to get to the heads- combined labor job

NOT do water pump timing belt- seeing the condition they were in,,and see how it runs afterwards

Shops dont want to use junkyard motors- too mush liabilty for them and drudgery of swapping parts- not making as much money as they could by working on something else
or selling you a new one

Ck with your state shop license bureau- consumer affairs
what exactly are your rights- does this shop have complaints of fraud -
then prepare to speak with the shop manager and owner- written complaint

Had they done a most basic of testing when it came in as part of the diagnosis- they should have done the leakdown test before replacing anything else
They didnt because they figured they could screw you like they did

You paid for a diagnosis- they failed to do it fully but charged full price,,,
and didnt properly diagnose

Figure up the cost of the parts they did replace that you can use on the new engine- pump- belt- whatever
Thats what you should pay them for- nothing else-
If their tech is ASE certified he sucks
If untrained tech MISdiagnosed,, thats their problem

You dont get to fix one part that is directly connected to another and then up the estimate because you screwed up and didnt think of valve damage
In small claims you would win

01tl4tl

does this car live in severe temp conditions?

jrdecat

Thank you 01tl4tl. The car was driving when it suddenly lost power. My wife immediately pulled over to the shoulder where the car died. We actually had the timing belt and H2O pump replaced about 20k ago. We did our part and had the service done, I'm just "that guy" I guess! Thank you very much for the valuable information. I will definitely be speaking with shop management!

jrdecat

The car does not live in severe temp conditions. We are in Vancouver, WA...pretty temperate except for this week. We were at 103 yesterday and already at 102 today.

thinhthan

dam that looks crazy when i got my timing belt changed my belt looked brand new still and it was on 175xxx miles on origanal timing belt

Edward'TLS

Initially I thought it was seized water pump. A seized water pump will grind the timing belt smooth, just like in your picture. But if the water pump is fairly new, what could have caused this ?

fsttyms1

Im guessing the pulley thats all gummed up was the culprit. It looks as thought it siezed causing the belt to melt and shred.

01tl4tl

yeah- bet you didnt get the new timing belt tensioner and idler pullies at the water pump/ tbelt replacement time,
not all shops offer it or suggest or think about doing.,, even DIYrs dont!
Dealers dont quote them in the estimate-to keep the price competative to other places you called
Replacement depends on what the tech finds- which should be they need replacement
That guy should get his butt kicked for blowing up your motor

I tell people here to replace everything that moves in there-- so it last another 100
Amazing how many argue that if a critical bearing is good now, it will be good another 100k miles
The problem with that is saving 100 bucks today cost you a broken timing belt not much later
Bearing failure-siezure as shown above- is same as breaking the belt itself, like it had never been replaced
its jumped off time and is beating mercilessly on the valvetrain to pistons

01tl4tl

Id still go after the shop that failed to observe and diagnose

TX-Miner

I think that gummed up pulley was the water pump pulley.

phee

iTrader: (5)

I can swap a tl engine in an afternoon. It's cake . Just remember how everything comes out.

niju321

O_o so much for plans to delay 105k service.

but shouldn't the shop that did the timing belt job be at least somewhat liable for this?

fsttyms1

Devils advocate Why should they. Especially if its a part thats not replaced nor is it usually replaced or told to replace by the customer?

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

G/L with the swap

It's not that hard if you know a little bit about cars

acutee

Just like Tom said, the shop really owes you the money. The car was brought in with the TB and pulleys falling apart, they charged you 1,400 for that, then said the engine is no good. Either they did it on purpose to gauge your money, or they are just monkey techs. From the picture, the TB did not break, so it is either the pulleys seized up, or the water pump pulley fell apart first. It looks like the water pump is not oem part.

It looks like the adjuster pulley seized up leading to this catastrophe. Good luck with the repair.

phee

iTrader: (5)

the shop who did the second timing belt after the failure owes you some money

jrdecat

In speaking more with my wife about how this went down and reading the notes on the invoice from the shop, I'm really seeing how we got hosed. They started out on day 1 by charging her for a diagnostic and noting that the relative compression sounds poor and pointing out that this is an interference engine and that there may be internal damage, so they got permission to change the timing belt out for $650. On day 2 they tell her that the H2O pump (an aftermarket was installed on my 105k maintenance) is bad and that needs to be replaced as well. So they got permission to fix that and upped the charges another $750 to switch the pump, coolant flush, replace cam and crank seals, and clean up all of the melted rubber out of the engine.

So we've all agreed that I got screwed...the question posed now is why would anyone pay $800-$1000 to do a 105k maintenance when they can buy a used engine for $400 and install it in a weekend? My new plan is to just run her till she blows up and then slap in some new guts. Besides, it's a good excuse to drink beer and hang out with your buds.

jrdecat

Hey 01tl4tl (or anyone else who knows), I am being told by a shop other than the one that did the repairs that the cylinder leakdown test is not possible without the timing belt and H2O pump replaced properly. Is this true? If not, can anyone give me the brief version of how this is done?

JR

01tl4tl

Leakdown test- wikipedia for more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_test
the engine is rotated by hand (wrench on crankshaft bolt)
into each cylinders `top dead center` position
Compressed air is injected into the cylinder thru a special fitting in the spark plug hole Guages measure how much pressure is escaping- a little bit is supposed to get by the rings- thats all
You can tell if its a valve leaking or piston ring problem by interpreting the readings and sounds

A more commonly used `compression test` would require the engine to be spinning at normal speed with the starter but not running, the TB belt would need to be working for that test

On the different days and charges: day 1- relative compression sounds bad- they RAN the engine???!!!?? and `sounds like`--not cpmpression test at 200-200-110- 200 200 200
that would be a bent valve
Running it in the condition it came in was a death warrant for it!!!!
You NEED to see the time cards and internal version of the work order
Its going to take your state auto bureau to get those

If it sounded that bad when it came in and they diagnosed timing belt
thats about the right price for that job-750
As part of the initial job in removing plastic covers, the tech would note belt and pullies melted parts etc- so they order what it needs and get extra labor for any cleanup of damamge
As it got deeper into the job and water pump is seen to be bad-
Service Manager contacts customer- `Ok we found the problem and the water pump is right behind the part we are working on, so it will be an extra hour labor and 100 for the pump`
NOT
do the t belt job complete, then start car and decide it needs a water pump and take everything you just did back apart and replace the pump!!
Something is wrong in the story or timeline that needs to be checked out
I worked in shops and they will screw you and smile about it

If this car came to my shop- it would have taken minutes to decide it was driven with a shredding belt and will have internal damage-
now lets discuss options on finding a used motor for this car because it wont last a year even with our best efforts to this one

01tl4tl

Note-= as part of the leakdown test you would remove the valve covers to watch the valve movement as you turn the engine slowly by hand (which lets you feel if there is restriction anywhere- and see if the valves move when they are supposed to, or if the cam gear is off time now- belt jumped a notch
You would see if one was already damaged and stop the testing there!!!!

Removal of cylinder heads is mandatory now with discovery of valve contact, (which they suspected when car came in) some parts to remove are the same as water pump timing belt job- you do everything at once to avoid duplicate labor and make sure exactly whats wrong
Might spend a few hours on deep diagnosis then stop
But a shop thats scum will do 1 job then the next- never making progress and figuring a women was the customer,,,,,

you win in small claims on this one

smartypants

Hi All :

Wow.....this really sucks !!!

I'm more wondering why the parts that you replaced earlier failed and "pooched" your engine. What parts did you replace and what was OEM and what was aftermarket ?

As for legal recourse, I doubt you can convince a court that "they" screwed up your motor, which is the only reason they would award damages given that all other repairs were approved. I know it's not really fair given that the approver did not understand what was being asked but, an approval is just that, an approval to spend money !


smartypants

jrdecat

So I returned to the shop where I had the "work" done and tried to get a clearer picture of the process:
1. Troubleshooting - turning the key and see what happens. The car would not start and this is where they said that "the relative compression sounds poor."

2. Turning key again they removed the sight plugs and could see that the camshafts were not spinning. They put in the notes that this is indicative of a broken or stripped timing belt and that this is an interference engine and may have internal engine damage. $100 diagnostic charge.

3. At this point they got authorization from my wife to replace the timing belt. They charged $175 parts / $369 labor for this.

4. While replacing timing belt they found that the hydraulic tensioner and H2O pump to be bad and got authorization (day 2) to replace those. Also told her that for H2O pump to have warranty it was required to have coolant system flush: $280 parts / $168 labor for pump, tensioner, and flush.

5. They also replaced front cam and crank seals $75 parts / $135 labor and charged $45 more to clean melted rubber off pulleys.

I asked them why at step 3, when they had all of the covers off to install timing belt, did they not leakdown test. They stated that at TDC he could only test cylinders 1 and 6, and he did not have the values for which to rotate the crank and cams so that he could ensure proper alignment and testing. He said that if he did have the values he would have to put an "angle wheel" on each pulley to ensure proper alignment and that would take far more time and $$ than putting everything back on and firing it up. I don't know if this really is true, but sounds "plausible."

All in all, total damage was $1371.21 plus tax and my car is still just sitting there. I'm sure I will learn (and drink) a lot this weekend while doing the engine swap. I'm really excited about it because now I know I will never have another repair over $500... I will just replace the engine from now on if anything goes wrong!

I appreciate all of the input and valuable information that is freely given in the forum. Thank you everyone who helped (and who continues to help).

Aman

at the absolute very least, you should go after a refund for the diagnostics, because that was obviously done wrong. And then go after everything else that was a consequence of the bad diagnostics check. Small claims court should get you the entire $1400 this way. And if I were you, I'd take advantage of the situation to toss in a Type-S motor. They can't be that much more expensive. Good luck with everything man

EDIT: and you could always part out the bad engine to offset the cost of the new one.

jrdecat

A shop replaced the timing belt and H2O pump about 20k ago (at 105k). They did not replace the hydraulic tensioner. I know the pump was aftermarket, don't know about the belt.

I will never have a shop do anything for me again unless absolutely necessary. I learned that paying approx $1k for the 105k service and then $1.4k when that stuff breaks is a lot more expensive than a $400 motor.

jrdecat

I thought about the type S, but then I'd need a new ECU and some wires. Plus my wife doesn't need anything more than the plain ol' 3.2. She drives fast enough as it is and we like the better fuel economy.

timberland73

iTrader: (1)

It's about time you got that thing replaced!

01tl4tl

they are still bsing you- trust me- I made my living doing this

even had a similar case with a porshe 911--
women calls saying visiting in town and suddenly in the morning it wont start... no matter how much she cranks it!~!!
Has it towed in - Tech removes inspection plug and says- Timing Broken Belt, these are interferance engines- did she crank it at ALL?? Yes?- needs head/complete teardown!

Husband picks up car- says his mechanic 100 miles away had recently replaced the timing belt...
He left handing his card- Investigator- Bureau of Automobile Repair and Licensing
Whew!!- if there was ever a guy you were happy to have comp'ed a 5 minute inspection to~

back to this car:
If they saw non moving cams- interferance engine MEANS there will definetly be damage to 1 or more valves
That mandates a cylinder head removal (timing belt covers come off as part of that
and send it to the machine shop for inspection and repair) if not repairable- replacement of complete cylinder head

In COURT the judge will ask them to explain to them like just they did the customer--leaving them baffled and agreeing to repairs that wont fix it
There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to put a timing belt on a car you KNOW is interferance and was running when it broke, Ive seen the results- so have most techs
Plus they tried to start it and nothing moved,,or cranked it and made further damage

In any case- that diagnosis should have been to Pull the cylinder heads and inspect if engine was toast or fixable, AS SOON AS broken timing belt was known

Then seeing the condition of the melted parts and knowing it probably has been running warm to hot from water pump failing...thats not a good sign for it overall, especially with aluminum heads and valve damage

An HONEST shop would have done what I said--thats from inside the biz ok- get it?

I will tell you how it works- because I hated myself doing it, now I work to educate,, and resolve injustice in the auto repair field (brushing back superhero flying cape)

You ask- why do people do a 105 instead of replacing the motor? Now you're thinking Japanese!
Their smog laws are so tight every engine must be replaced after a few years!
service- no,,,replace!!
A used engine still needs a new OEM dealer water pump and timing belt- new tensioners
seafoaming- oil cleaning---new plugs- new thermostat OEM
to make it roadworthy

niju321

i thought the tensioner was always replaced but i've never had the 105k service so i guess i wouldn't know. my dealer made a point to say they replace the tensioner....so i figure if OP had this done at a dealer, and the acura procedure is to replace the tensioner, then the dealer would be liable. if its not acura procedure then damn.

jrdecat

I will definitely be removing the new timing belt, tensioners, and H2O pump from the wrecked engine and putting on the new. I'll throw some new plugs in there also as well as the t-stat as recommended. This should be a lot easier with both engines out and with everything accessible. I'm reading from various posts that the NGK Iridium IK's are the way to go with the G2 TL - am I correct? Platinum vs iridium? Some posts are also recommending the seafoam BEFORE changing plugs to make everything nice and clean for the new plugs. Will there be that much of a difference to justify the extra work of changing plugs with the engine out versus the PITA version? Seafoam in the oil takes care of oil cleaning, right? Are there any other housekeeping items that I should do before I throw this engine in the car? Cleaning throttle body (with what?), etc...? Any add'l supplies I'll need such as coolant, tranny fluid, oil (and recommended brands), beer...? Deschutes Brewery in Bend, OR is my recommendation for beer. Can't beat the Black Butte Porter. By the way, where's the DIY on the engine swap? Just kidding about the DIY. I've found lots of pics with people standing in their engine bay.

Thanks,

JR - king of annoying questions.

01tl4tl

carb spray cleans the round plate in the TB throat

May as well pull the intake manifold and clean the EGR ports- about 75,000 miles is when they need cleaning on a TL

Seafoam in the oil takes care of the oil cleaning

Ok to install new plugs with engine out - then gas and manifold vac seafoam after everything is up and running ok
Wont hurt new plugs at all
NGK Iridium- better plug- platinum was stock gen2- gen3 comes with iridium

yes new coolant- acura approved brand (read label) or direct from honda dealer
yes trans fluid- Honda ZR only! you will lose some in the deal
yes engine oil and filter- anything for the first couple hundred mile run, since you are going to foam the oil then change it again
For regular use: Doesnt matter what brand-synthetic or regular whatever you like
Everyone has a valid reason for the oil they choose, some like shearing action molecules while others buy whatever's in a 5 qt container at wallys

5W30 for summer weather, I always use a good filter- mobil1 or K&N for the 7500 miles

a fram or bosch- whatever's on sale- is installed before this oil foaming so it can catch all the crud, then change oil and filter and drive

I sugest that for any mileage over 50k and first time oil cleaning- huge amounts of crud are in the engine- throw a new filter on for safety-
if a old filter clogs with all the stuff, the bypass valve opens and filter is out of the loop- opposite of the desired result!
Follow foams website directions and driving with it-- allows time to really soften and `liquify` crud grunge stuff, so it travels to the filter and is caught

Digital camera will help as you put it all back together- mark hoses with tape and numbers- take pics- remove parts...those vac hoses and small coolant lines to TB will mess with you if not marked and noted

jrdecat

So I borrowed a friend's Ford Ranger (my only option) and drove to LKQ down in Portland today. I bought an engine and had the forklift load it way in the front. Then I went and bought an engine hoist from some guy off craigslist for $75 and he helped me load the beast in the back. I drove home and unloaded the hoist myself using a little leverage and excellent lifting technique. Then I unloaded the engine with the hoist I had just recently almost dropped. So here she is...this will (hopefully) soon be the pulse of our 2000 TL!

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I will be uploading pics as I go to: http://photobucket.com/JRAcura

SodaLuvr

STP oil filter? Wow, the previous owner really cared about that engine.

Good luck with the swap.

jrdecat

I'm detecting a hint of sarcasm in your voice...

01tl4tl

I was gonna say it- but soda beat me,,, once again~

stp are not highly rated in test, and physical internal inspection of materials

see www.bobtheoilguy.com for info on filters, or search oil filter test

FirePR2002

^^lets not kick the guy while he's down - at least this engine is warranty-ed to work - unlike the one that got him in this predicament.

phee

iTrader: (5)

It's a Honda engine after all...

01tl4tl

I will say that the stp filter does mean someone changed the oil~
could have beed a speedie or a package deal on oil and filter at zone
As long as it was changed....better than nothing