newperson

iTrader: (2)

totaledTL: OK. Maybe once I get that seized screw off without messing up the box it'll just come off. I didn't replace any plugs. I just pulled plug #1 to see how it looked. Didn't look that bad...little redish-brown but nothing major (in my opinion).

gold2003tl(90): Wow that's consoling. I thought the opposite in terms of the previous owner....but then again I was comparing it to my old Chevy.

I still haven't been able to find a replacement screw or air box. sigh. I guess I'll just have to live with this.

But how do these numbers sound (car idling):
Throttle Position: 9.4%
Engine RPMs: 750rpm
Load: 25.9%
Time advance (cylinder #1): 9 degrees, sometimes 12 degrees
Intake Manifold Pressure: 8.0 inHg
Short Term Fuel Trim: between +3 and +4%
Long Term Fuel Trim: +2.3%
Intake Air Temperature: 131 degrees Fahrenheit
Coolant Temperature: 199 degrees Fahrenheit

On this site it says normal manifold intake pressure is between 16 and 22 inHg. Does that apply to our J32A1 engine, cause mine said 8.0Hg? I also discovered when the RPM does its bounce, so does the pressure (down to about 3.0inHg and the back up to 8.0inHG).

totaledTL

Why can't you get a screw & airbox from the dealer?

newperson

iTrader: (2)

They'll probably charge me an arm & a leg for something so simple...and they're about 40 miles away. I was more seeking something from a junkyard/autozone/murrays/advance auto parts/etc., but I guess the dealer is my last resort.

01tl4tl

i didnt read the whole thread- have you CALLED the local junkyard- now called auto dismantler and recycling-
if the local one doesnt have it- they use a special `hotline phone` to other shops and request the part.
Someone will have it and charge about half of the new part cost.

01tl4tl

the vac is way low if measured at the main vac port on the intake manifold or TB connector (year dependant)
my 01 pulls over 20 inches at idle

check all your vac lines- there is a small one on the rear of the manifold, a main one with a squeeze hose clamp at the manifold, and check hose clamps on everything going to the engine--sometimes get loose or left off... and air leaks abound

newperson

iTrader: (2)

So I do in fact have a vacuum leak if I get 8 inches and you get around 20 inches (at idle). This was idling with a warm engine too (fuel was in closed loop).

I didn't measure this stuff directly, I just accessed it from the OBD port with my (elm327) cable & laptop [interfacing with serial port].

So now we figured out the problem (vacuum leak)....now for the solution:

0) Double checking all vacuum & hose lines secure [I've tried this again & again...either I'm missing something or they all actually are secure]

1) Replacing air filter screws

2) Replacing air filter assembly

3) Sticking valves? Does that allude to a valve adjustment as a solution?

4) Actually taking off the TB instead of just the intake tube...and clean it.

5) Maybe EGR port cleaning.

So I guess once I get more than about 15 inHg the problem is solved. It's good to now have a metric which defines the problem.

Thanks again you guys.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Well, I've ordered new filter box screws from acuraoemparts (dealer wants around $5 each....and add in an hours-worth of gas...worth the wait).

Today since I have nothing to do I'm gonna try dismantling my upper intake manifold & throttle body and do some cleaning. So that leaves air filter box & sticking valves left if these procedures do not prove effective (in terms of restoring around 20 inHg of vacuum). I'm sure they are good to do no matter what though. I'll try to shoot some pictures too....hmm I might even replace my spark plugs while I'm at it. I just wanted everything to be good before I replaced them, except this is probably the only time I'll get the chance to with school & work & girlfriend and all.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Got so much stuff done today. Replaced the air filter, cleaned out the throttle body, did the EGR/Intake Manifold cleaning, and replaced cabin filter. Put everything back together and........still only 8 inches of vacuum.

I'll post pictures later (when I'm fully awake) but there's two things that caught my eye:

a) the green gasket between the TB & IM was either torn or got torn when I pulled the TB off the IM. The thing is, there's this brown stuff on it right where it tore. My guess is when you suck seafoam too fast it just sits in the TB under the passageway & gets dried up and weakens the gasket.

b) when I pulled off the IM, the right-most cylinder hole had oil on it. And only that hole, no others. There was oil sitting in the EGR port area too. Anyone know what that could mean?

So I guess I need to grab some new gaskets and see if that fixes the problem.

It feels like I did so much today because I started around 7pm and finished 8 hours later....I just went really slow, but methodically. I think I can handle an IM/TB removal in under half an hour now....it was a lot easier than I had originally thought.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Does anyone know where I can get TB gaskets same-day [e.g., pickup]? Autozone & Partsamerica only let me do online ordering...I need them now though.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

and I don't need #8 or #6, only #5, correct?

newperson

iTrader: (2)

I'm guessing 6 & 8 are only for the Type S. So I got my new TB gasket, gonna put it on tomorrow since it's dark now.

SodaLuvr

NAPA should have all of the gaskets in-stock.

You can spray soapy water on the vacuum leaks and see if you find an area that bubbles. That would tell you if there's a leak.

I would also go ahead and replace all six plugs to rule out the spark plugs as the problem. While one plug may be OK, one or more of the other ones may be damaged from the Seafoam.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Yea I guess I should. I just was hoping that the problem was not the spark plugs so that if I did put on new spark plugs, the problem didn't dirty up the new plugs.

I'm not convinced that I have a vacuum leak after doing some more reading. Main reason is because in the Helm manual, I was looking at the section that details the Manifold Absolute Pressure (page 11-11: Fuel & Emission Systems : PCM Data) and it says that at idle speed, the operating value is 6-10 inHg. My reading was 8.0 which is within that spec.

I'm guessing the difference is that the PCM reports absolute pressure of the vacuum vs. absolute pressure within respect to the atmosphere. What I should really be using is this (if I use the reading from the PCM/OBD):

29.92 inHg (atmospheric pressure) - vacuum_abs_pressure = vacuum pressure. (Wikipedia)

So in my case, my vacuum pressure is actually 29.92 - 8 or about 22inHg, which matches up to 01tl4tl's numbers.

I'm just gonna throw the new TB gasket & spark plugs on today and see what happens. Also gonna clean out the IACV since I didn't do it the other day. And I'm still waiting on my screws for the air box. If these don't fix the problem, don't know what else to do.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Pictures:

Air filter wasn't that bad:
103_0192.jpg?t=1227961720

Air filter box, notice how the bottom right screw is broken off & the body is stuck in the hole:
103_0193.jpg?t=1227962019

Cabin filter was pretty dirty:
103_0196.jpg?t=1227962103

...as was the compartment for the cabin filter:
103_0198.jpg?t=1227962138

EGR port black as well as oil in the well:
103_0214.jpg?t=1227962234

Throttle body gasket. Notice how the bottom portion is brown. My guess is that's dried up seafoam when you suck it in too fast. Gasket is also torn but could be due to just taking off the TB:
103_0212.jpg?t=1227962270

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Replaced my spark plugs, cleaned out the IACV, and installed the new TB gasket. Result: definite power gain and smoother acceleration. But, I still feel like it could be better because my rpms seem to only bounce after I take off my foot from the accelerator in only 1st or 2nd gear. Doing the same (accelerate kind of hard, then remove foot before it shifts) in 3rd or higher gives me a gradual deceleration vs. an abrupt one. I also still hear a "wind" noise and lots of air-related road noise.

I haven't hooked my laptop back up to take some readings but will do that soon. My air filter box still isn't secured all the way so I hope that's the final solution.

In retrospect, if you look at the old picture of the gasket, you can see it's brownish/torn right at the port for the IACV.
103_0212.jpg?t=1227962270

Spark plugs weren't that bad to do except for the fact that I had this 15" bar + spark plug socket that I easily used for the fronts but there was no way it was gonna fit in the limited space to get to the back plugs. So I had to make two trips to autozone to just grab a regular spark plug socket and then because I grabbed the wrong size. Then combine that with thinking I had a 6" extension but which was actually a 3" and it took more time than expected. I just used 2 3" extensions to get the back ones in/out. No misfires or anything (I also reset the ECU) so I'm guessing I did it right. But that damn ticking is still there.

I'm also looking at the questions I asked on the first page of this thread....dang I feel like I've learned alot since then.

SodaLuvr

I would replace the air filter screws then see how it goes. You really need to have all the "basics" covered before you start doing any further diagnosing.

Also, could you please post a video of this so-called "rpm bounce?" Thanks.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

True, need to cover the basics first; I just unfortunately ordered the screws right before Thanksgiving and they haven't shipped yet. But I'm hoping that they are the reason for the RPM bounce.

And I was wrong....it happens in 3rd and 4th gear too. I'll try to describe it some more: If I accelerate let's say half of WOT and get up to 3k rpms and suddenly take my foot off the pedal, the needle on the tach smoothly decreases down to about 1k rpms (over the course of 3 seconds approximately). Once it gets there, it's like the PCM does a "oh snap, the rpms are too low" and quickly adjusts the IACV (I'm guessing) so that the rpms go back up to 1500 rpms...which looks like the tach bounces. There is no noticeable jerk or anything when this happens.

I'm hypothesizing that this only happens at low engine rpms where a loose air filter box probably has a more defined effect on the engine speed. But if the difference between the target idle rpms (1500 rpm) and the right-before-you-let-off-the-pedal-after-accelerating rpms (3000 rpm) is great, then you see the bounce. If I did some acceleration to about 2000 rpms and left off, you see no bounce because I guess the PCM more accurately adjusts the IACV since the consequence of a loose air filter box is more prevalent at low rpms. Coming down from 3k rpms on the other hand, the PCM takes a break and wakes up when it realizes the rpms are too low.

I'll try to take a video but things are gonna be real busy for me next couple of days. Good thing Thanksgiving gave me all this time.

Another symptom is cruise control doesn't work as good when the target velocity requires an engine speed of around 1k-1.5krpms. It under- & over-shoots pretty badly. Not as defined at higher rpms. Same hypothesis is that the loose air filter box throws off the cruise control module, and skews the transfer function for the closed loop.

After driving some more yesterday, I guess I've really seen a huge improvement. It feels like I have torque again! And WOTs now satisfy my soul. Once I fully secure the air filter box, my rpm bounce better go away! I think I have to reset the ECU so it can readjust my idle correctly.

01tl4tl

when the IM was off- you cleaned all the runners and egr ports per acura tech bulletin?- which includes flushing each runner and egr port, then flipping manifold- throat opening down- and repeat cleaning
Should have taken 3 cans of carb clean to get everything clean

When the TB is off- you flip it over and access the IAC- thats IDLE Air Control, not every rpm control!
Clean the TB plate directly- not thru a side tube-
is that how you did seafoam- thru a side tube into the rubber snout, instead of the intake manifold main vac port?

Plugs should be light tan to greyish when running right

rear plus are easy to get with a 3 and 6 inch extension combined on the plug socket.
Easier to break the total length into pieces and access each plug- than fight a full length long extension
ok to remove the strut bar for far easier access too

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Yup, did it til I didn't see any black/brown anywhere. Even got rid of the oil that was sitting.

So the IACV has no effect when the car is in gear & moving & you're decelerating without your foot on the pedal?

In the picture below, the upper-right shaft that sticks out is what I used...which I believe runs to the solenoid control valve?

103_0212.jpg?t=1227962270


My old plugs were pretty reddish. Guess that indicates an over-abundance of fuel used? Yeah the 15" bar I had, there was no chance I was gonna get the rear ones out with that...learned that the hard way; good thing Autozone was located about 6 blocks away. That strut bar really is in the way but what I did was use a 3" extension + socket plug + plug, put it in the hole, screw it on finger tight, then put another 3" extension on and my torque ratchet, then torqued to spec.

totaledTL

My recently replaced plugs were quite reddish too. If you get a long reach plug socket you won't need to fumble with multiple extensions. It's much easier. As a bonus it helps to align the plug so it screws in straight w/out crossthreading.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

The socket I used was a "great neck"or something so it kind of gave me an extra inch or so. That and a 3" extension was enough just to maneuver the plug into the hole (without bumping the tip) & screw it in by hand (regarding the back plugs). I'm guessing I did it alright, engine is quieter and accelerates a lot better with no un-evenness. My idle is quieter but I still get the occasional shakes/vibrations and the ticking is still there.

01tl4tl

try this for the ticking:
install a new cheap `whatever is on sale` brand oil filter
Add 16 ounces of seafoam to current engine oil and drive 100-150 miles over a few days to a week
With engine warm- drain out oil and change filter with the hi-quality parts you normally use
The filter will feel very heavy compared to when it went on, its full of grunge/sludge

See if cleaning glaze crud and unknow combustion byproducts frees things up and helps the ticking. If an oil passage is dirty- low flow might lead to noises downstream.
Never hurts to clean everything and start from square 1

Repeat seafoam in engine using deep creep spray version- use the vac port on the TB (gen2)or near it on top of intake throat (gen3) `that has a hose with a squeeze clamp on it`. There is only 1 hose like it in the area!
Warm engine first per diy - add slowly- 10-15 minutes to get can in- -now shut off engine- wait 10 minutes- start- let stabilize- go for 2000 rpm slow drive till smoth- then 4000 rpm 10 minutes with some quick runs to 5000
that will clean the plugs of any debris seafoam got loose
If you prefer honda's or gm or wynns or bg44 stuff- use them- but give the engine a fair shot at running right
Its loaded up from all the problems, air leaks and trouble-shooting

01tl4tl

A $5 Mechanics Stethascope is the tool for finding ticking clicking whirring grinding type noises. Looks like the Doctors but has a metal probe tip to place against metal parts like the ac tensioner pulley- that goes out and sounds like a valve is loose
Check that out

newperson

iTrader: (2)

So you're saying to do a seafoam again even though I just put on new plugs?

I've seafoamed about 3 times prior to putting the new plugs on.

I'll have to try the oil filter thing out, but be aware that the only oil change I've had since I've had the car has been the one I got at Jiffy Lube, so I'm unaware of the difference between a cheap filter & "high quality parts I [would] normally use".

If I listen to the exhaust closely, the sound at the exhaust closely corresponds with the ticking. When I was looking at buying a TL, just about every TL (4 outt of 4) had the ticking sound and I therefore regarded it as normal. If not, it must be a known issue.

I don't know what valves are supposed to sound like...which makes it harder to diagnose the problem.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

bump....

Seafoam even with new plugs? Yes or no.

What kind of oil filter am I supposed to use and what brand of oil?

Something I thought of: what if the car was running synthetic oil and when I got the oil change at Jiffy lube, they put in regular oil? What types of things can happen?

And it feels like my performance once again is suffering. It's hard to work on this issue when it's cold as heck outside (ps: I live in an apartment, park on the street, no garage).

totaledTL

Probably would do well to just read through the seafoam thread(s) for that quest.,

newperson

iTrader: (2)

I was just under the impression from that thread & others that you want to seafoam on old plugs then install the new ones. Except doing a seafoam now conflicts with that protocol. And I don't wanna replace the plugs 1 week after I just replaced them....my back hurt for 2 days after I replaced them last week.

I finally got my air filter screws in the mail; gonna put 'em in and see how it goes. First I need to get that other screw out the hole though.

01tl4tl

What I meant: Normally people are not seafoaming until 60-70k miles, and for them its do the treatment then change the plugs
On new plugs- you can foam- just do the 4000 rpm after drive to blow the crud off the plugs and out the exhaust
Since they are new and full spark power, it wont be an issue
The only problem is hi miles plugs -- then NO afterdrive- just letting the crud get loose and attach itself back to the plugs- doh!

Jiffy lube is half you problem- is there even oil in the engine?
If you recently changed the oil/filter, add seafoam and drive- then get it changed again
Cleaning the oil passages can get rid of many noises
Avoid the quick lubes and the animals that work on your car there
You can change just the filter in your driveway with a ziplock bag!
If there is a lot of crud, a fresh filter is cheap insurance on catching all of it

I dont know how you were doing the seafoam before you started work on the car- this thread is pretty long without a synopsis

newperson

iTrader: (2)

OK, 01tl4tl, I will try to do an oil change and another seafoam on my new plugs making SURE I do the blowoff afterwards. After my finals, I should have a lot of time.

Synopsis: Bought car, got oil change @ Jiffy Lube, did seafoam. Good performance directly after seafoam. Noticed sluggishness, low performance, rpm problems days later. Possible direct causes: loose air filter cover, bad/clogged oil. Possible indirect causes: Jiffy Lube and/or Seafoam application.


---------

Below will tell you everything I've done to my car since I bought it (around 3 months ago).

Late August: Bought the car (used) from the dealer with 112k miles.

September 20: Got an oil change at Jiffy Lube since I didn't know when the last change was (and because I don't know how to do one).

September 26: Did my first seafoam. Original post on how I did it is in the seafoam thread itself:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=386
About October 1: Noticed performance seemed to decline a little bit. Felt more "grainy" at the accelerator and didn't accelerate as fast. Noticed a low frequency hum at idle.

Oct. 8-27: Wondered if I did the seafoam correctly:
About Nov. 1: Redid seafoam with Deep Creep. Noticed when I removed the vaccuum line the engine starts to pulsate. The engine did not pulsate when I did the seafoam the first time.
Nov. 2: Noticed one my air filter screws was broken and the cover was pretty much secured by 3 screws. Thought I found a link to the hum and loss of power. Wondered if Jiffy Lube was the culprit as on the sheet it said "Air Filter: OK"; could mean they checked it and it was fine and broke a screw off in the process.

About Nov. 12: Got my Timing Belt, Water Pump, and other belts replaced at a shop. Also says they did a coolant flush.

Nov. 14: The first post of this thread.

Nov. 27-30: Thanksgiving weekend I did:
1) EGR & IM cleaning with 2 cans of Carb Cleaner
2) Cleaned the TB plate and IACV
3) Put on a new TB gasket
4) Replaced air & cabin filters [note: air filter screws not replaced yet]
5) Installed new NGK Iridium IX spark plugs

Now: And here we are with my next course of action (in this order):
1) replace air filter screws
2) Seafoam again....I guess I can do it in the oil this time
2) oil filter & oil change
Current mileage: 116k miles.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Finally got around to taking a video of the rpm "bounce". All I'm doing is accelerating til I get to 3k rpms and then letting off the accelerator. RPMs fall, bounce up a little, then stabilize.

http://s365.photobucket.com/albums/o...t=S8000008.flv

newperson

iTrader: (2)

I forgot my transmission replacement....

September 18: New transmission replaced under warranty.

2 days later I got the Jiffy Lube oil change and that's when all hell broke loose....maybe it's the trans?

rp_guy

personally i don't see that as a problem.. it doesn't affect the car in any way and it's not like it's dropping past idle and lugging the car..

if you're that worried you should bring it in to acura and see what they say..

newperson

iTrader: (2)

I can agree that that makes sense, but on the other hand why would it just start all of a sudden?

Update: after two weeks on the new plugs, I'm back to the same sluggish performance. I seafoamed yesterday through the TB (no CEL this time!) did the 4k rpm blowoff in 2nd gear and no change in performance at all. This makes me think of two hypotheses:

1) When I installed the plugs, I reset the ECU. Is it possible that while the ECU was doing it's "relearning" I had good performance and then after it did it's learning, it's reducing the fuel delivery? Bad O2 sensor?

2) The plugs are just getting dirtied up again. I guess I'll pull a plug to see what it looks like. After two weeks and a day after seafoaming, I would expect it to be almost as it was when I first installed it.

Which hypothesis is probably more plausible? Or any other hypotheses?

Note: still bad air filter box. I can't for the life of me get this broken screw out. Tried penetrating oil, rust blocker, freeze off, and can't find a small enough bolt extractor. Help?

totaledTL

Is it possible to cut a slot in it w/ a Dremel tool then back it out with a reg. screwdriver? I've done that many times.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

As much as I've messed with it, the actual bolt is now kind of level with the plastic of the assembly. I'm just gonna take a drill to it with a small enough bit. Hopefully I don't mess up the threads on the actual box though. I'm hoping that this little thing can fix all my problems and yet it's so difficult to do.

totaledTL

Sears sells various sizes of damaged screw head removers- might give that a shot.

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Cool I'll try them out. I'm learning that people who know "cars" not only know how to do stuff but know where to get stuff & pick the right tools!

01tl4tl

use a dremal- and repair any plastic airbox damage with jbweld for plastic!
You cant make it run right with an air leak!!! fix it - then we can dial down anything else
You may have a vac line off the motor mount if its the boosted type
Is the rear vac line to manifold attached ?

BUT

It started after jiffy lube and the invoice says air filter ok- (though they often check the box and not have checked the car- they set tire air to max listed on sidewall too, if you dont watch them and question everything!)

You have a fair LEGAL case for them to replace the entire box or repair the broken screw. Go speak to the actual MANAGER-OWNER about the problem,
give them 1 change before reporting the damage to the State Board of Auto Repair
All shops- even oil change- are licensed and regulated-
not supposed to break the customers car!!!!
The prob started after they touched the car- what does that say to you?
They are responsible

As for foam and new plugs- I bet they are sparkling new perfect- you did the blowoff drive 4000 rpm 10 minutes- thats fine on new plugs
Slightly older plugs may need more heat time to get all the gunk out of the system and not stuck on the plugs
Its only if you foam and then dont drive at all - on olddd plugs- that on startup-
goo will be flung onto the plug electrodes and foul them- making them unable to fire properly, just like if oil leaked on them from bad valve seals (think old chevy)

newperson

iTrader: (2)

Yep all vacuum lines should be in place....I referred to the Helm manual when I did the IM/EGR cleaning to make sure all stuff that should be detached/attached were. I think it is the boosted type...an '02 TL-P?

I'm gonna really try to get that screw out the box today...whatever it takes!

Kulrevon

I have heard of peoples o2 sensors going bad/clogging on occasion after sea foaming.

you might want topull the front one and spray it down with a cleaner.

Just a possible problem.