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Specific question on intermittent ignition/starter issue

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Specific question on intermittent ignition/starter issue

 
Old 03-05-2019, 01:17 PM
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Unhappy Specific question on intermittent ignition/starter issue

Hello.

I apologize for starting a new thread on this often discussed topic.
Bleary eyed from searching and reading many discussions on Gen 2 TL ignition gremlins.
I have a questions after sorting through information.

2000 TL, approx 160,000 miles.

My son called (from 3+ hours away).
Nothing happening when ignition key is turned.
All dash lights go dark when key is turned.
Battery is fairly new Interstate installed myself Dec 2017. (We buy direct from the local Interstate store).
Battery terminal connection tight and looks fine. (he sent a picture).
The radio needs to be coded and clock needs to be adjusted.
(Hmmm...maybe the battery terminal/connection needs to be cleaned, maybe ground cable needs replacing.)
Then the car fired up few minutes later. Just like that.
He said this happened after I asked him the turn on the headlights to check the battery. (?)
Headlights are nice and bright when turned on without the engine running.
After about an hour it started fine again.

I am trying to sort through the information at the forum.
If it is the starter/solenoid intermittently not engaging, why did the radio and the clock get reset?
(I read about tapping on the starter to see if the solenoid will engage.)
Can a faulty immobilizer 'ring' on the ignition switch cause the radio and clock to reset as part of the anti theft measure?
Does the immobilizer system affect the radio and clock setting?

Also, if it is the starter relay, why would the radio/clock power get disrupted?

Trying the understand the finer points of immobilizer system, starter/solenoid and starter relay.

Thank you for helping.

VA2000TL
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Old 03-05-2019, 02:43 PM
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It's news to me that there are any "Gen 2 TL ignition gremlins." I've only had problems starting the car twice: 1) dead battery and 2) dead starter.

I've never experienced any problems with the immobilizer; are you using the original keys that came with the car?

Does the radio/clock reset every time the car is turned off?

Your information seems to suggest a lack of charge to the system...the clock and radio being reset. a few things I would check:
  1. the fuse for the "backup" which supports memory of the clock and radio
  2. the length of the positive terminal cable-check inside the red sleeve where the cable connects to the battery clamp, some have seen a cable completely corrode here if not maintained.
  3. the length of the ground cable as it connects the chassis (above the reserve coolant container and down below on the transmission(
and sometimes things fail quickly...Did you have the battery tested?
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:06 PM
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Thank you for replying!

Did not mean to overly generalize with the term "ignition gremlins" in Gen 2 cars.

Still using the two original factory keys/fobs.
Do not have the valet key.
(Car was given to us by a relative.)

I am confused about why the car is firing up and running normal after that incident yesterday.
It is as if there is no problem with the battery and cable connections to it.
System is getting full power from the battery for starting, headlights, etc.
As for the radio/clock, I will follow you suggestion in #1 and look for the backup fuse.
I will ask my son if the radio/clock is maintaining the settings.

I will test the battery first chance when I visit this weekend and also your suggestions in #2 and 3.
Have full compliment of battery tools such as load tester, specific gravity tester, meter, etc. and also maintain our batteries with CTEK stuff.
Unless the alternator is faulty and not properly maintaining the battery I have no reason to suspect the battery is on its way out. Will find out during visit.

Can a bad cable or poor connection at the battery cause such symptom as described?
Zero response at starter from ignition switch, but then start working again.

Thank you.
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:22 PM
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So...if it is an early sign of a failing starter/solenoid, trying to understand the power disruption to the radio/clock.
Will have to wait until this weekend to check the backup fuse.
And most definitely check the battery cables and connections.
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:26 PM
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A few questions

Do you have a aftermarket alarm with auto start. or stock Next yes a fob button can be stuck. Drop 1 out of range at a time or take batt out. Try some or all function of fob. All windows down. By unlock. Then unlock again. High volt alternator would be a looking into and baking soda then vinegar to ground Is the batt cranking volt and amps highly over rated. Or do you have a subwoofer system with a 1 Faried capacitor wired to the car. ?? Use the obd2 port and a ELM327 this will send voltage and computer's faults displayed on your cell phone Tablet or other. Your batt or alt or ground would be my first checks And fuse specs on each fuse box. The rest will tell you in the computer check Record all errors by screenshots from log Clear and monitor alldata has specs on voltage from here to here. if this goto this If not go here. Easy.as that.
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:34 PM
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Skant - thank you for the suggestions and I will try to follow.

The car is still 100% stock except the tires, oil, fiters and driver side rear brake caliper.
Correction: Thanks to this forum was able to repair (instead of buy) the heater control motor. And replaced the pulse air solenoid that was clicking too loud.
Whoops, forgot to add the original HID components were transferred to the new headlamp housings. Amazing they are still in working order.

None of the interior electronics removed or added, including the factory sound system.

Will check the battery and starter cables, connections, etc.

Last edited by VA2000TL; 03-05-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:10 AM
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Before I drive three hours to where the car is sitting I have a question about the positive and ground battery cables.
Testing the battery and tracing the cables for signs of corrosion and deterioration will be the first thing I do.
While doing so will go ahead and also remove the battery for a better look underneath and closer look at the starter area.
(Will also have an assortment of fuses just in case.)

If some or all of the cables need attention/replacement, especially the ground cables, are they readily available in generic lengths from parts stores, especially with the eyelets already soldered onto the ends?
I have soldering equipment if buying the cables and eyelets for forming my own is a better option.

Picture my son sent of the negative terminal on battery post shows green corrosion in the exposed copper wire strands where the cable clamps onto the negative post.
It is not a heavy buildup, just flush with the strands. I am guessing should not interrupt the flow of current in the strands?
When the car does start it cranks normal. Headlights are lit normal when turned on without engine running.

First I will also do is check this backup fuse for the radio and clock mentioned by Whitetiger5 (thank you).
Still puzzled over why the power was disrupted to those. It appears they are maintaining the settings after that one episode the other day.
I was hoping this part of the puzzle would be helpful in narrowing down the suspects.

Eagerly counting down to Sunday when I will get to take a close look at the car.
Rounding up tools, taking the spare factory keys (but no valet).

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to this post.
Continuing to search and read similar threads to better prepare for this weekend's trip.

Last edited by VA2000TL; 03-07-2019 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:29 AM
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I am finding more and more threads that point to the battery ground cable to the block and the starter solenoid.
Mentions of power disruption.
Possible starter solenoid failure, but when the car starts it cranks normal.
So back to possibly a power disruption.

On a separate matter, poor ground cable/connection could also lead to preventing the proper charging of the battery by the alternator and eventual weakening of the battery.
As of now the battery seems to be functioning at normal capacity for cranking the car.
Will check the alternator output to the battery at the alternator and battery posts.
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:29 AM
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Corrosion on cables leads to higher resistance which ultimate leads to poor conductivity of electricity. Basically, the cable can't carry the power where it needs to go. Auto parts stores have cables some with the terminals attached, some without. It may be a good opportunity to just look into something called the "Big 3 upgrade as a guide to how to replace cables. https://www.crutchfield.com/S-skXMJC...lternator.html


I'm not saying you need to add capacitors and fuses and such, just reference it to know how people typically replace the cables with aftermarket solutions
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:38 AM
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Toiboi - Thank you.

Found yet more threads on negative/ground cable/connection issues.
One with very helpful diagram for ground cables.

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-p...g-help-939898/

Assembling tools and items for the road trip to the car.
Will need to disconnect the battery cables - probably 10mm.
Not sure about the bolt head sizes on the chassis end.
Find out when I get there.
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by VA2000TL View Post
Toiboi - Thank you.

Found yet more threads on negative/ground cable/connection issues.
One with very helpful diagram for ground cables.

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-p...g-help-939898/

Assembling tools and items for the road trip to the car.
Will need to disconnect the battery cables - probably 10mm.
Not sure about the bolt head sizes on the chassis end.
Find out when I get there.
10 mm is basically all you need for most of the entire car..


Bring a 12 and a 14mm just in case you need to unbolt the battery tray or other misc parts,
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:45 AM
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Thanks!

With the car three hours away have to just load up the trunk and hope for the best.
Packing several different types of flats and the 3/8 and 1/4" metric 6 point sockets and extensions/swivels.
Not sure if I will need any 1/2" stuff.
Spray bottle for water.
Box of baking soda. Plastic and metal brushes.
Soldering tools - just in case I have to cobble together a new cable.
Tarp/pan/absorbant so I don't mess up my brother's garage floor....

Debating on going ahead and buying a starter.
Drop ship it from Amazon.
Many different brands none requiring a core charge.
Denso is available. Amazon Choice shows a remanufactured Delco at a much higher price.
I would like to avoid the back and forth dealing with the core.
At worst it can be kept as a spare in the trunk as I do expect it to fail at some point.

Last edited by VA2000TL; 03-07-2019 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:00 AM
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You shouldn't need a 1/2" as the 3/8" should be able to take off the starter just fine. I didn't realize you may want to replace the starter, those bolts are 14 if I'm not mistaken, maybe 12mm.


I'd stick with the Denso over the Delco, Having one there from Amazon isn't a bad idea and if you dont' need it, you can always just return it.


Also I should have mentioned earlier, terminals are typically crimp-on and not soldered; that's not to say you can't add some solder if you'd like but it's typically not necessary, hell not even the OEM cables are soldered
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:14 AM
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Will go ahead and order the Denso as a spare.

Will go fully prepared to pull battery, tray, etc. to trace the ground cables.

Saw a thread mentioning the large 120 and 60 amp fuses that are fastened with phillips screws.
Are these common and walk-in available in auto parts stores?
Never noticed such fuses in the past and not sure if that's a 'Honda' thing.

Also, after looking at the owners manual fuse chart I do not see a 'backup' fuse for the circuit that help maintain the clock and radio settings.
Will take another look.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:18 AM
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Backup fuse is by the driver's kick panel. 120 amp fuse is in the fuse box in the top right of the engine bay (closest to driver's side firewall) If you follow the positive cable from the battery to the engine bay fuse box, you'll see it attached in series.

I don't think it's the fuse though
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:22 AM
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Ordered the Denso.
Amazon free delivery tomorrow, not two days.
Sold by Amazon, not a third party vendor.
Nice surprise.

It does mention a $24 core but no information on what's involved.
Price is fine as-is even if I eat the core charge.
Guess will find out when it arrives. Maybe includes a ship label for sending the core.
Probably should keep it in the trunk if not needed.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:26 AM
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Thanks for the backup fuse location!!

I do have the location/diagram for the main fuses.
Not sure if those are readily available from parts stores such as Advance.
In case I end up needing one far away from the nearest dealer parts counter.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:29 AM
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https://www.oemacuraparts.com/v-2000...it-engine-room

120A : 38213-SP0-003

60A: 38214-SS1-003


They're also available on Amazon if you're so inclined...
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:30 AM
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Hmmm...I don't see a fuse description that indicates a power backup for radio and clock.
Checked diagram on both driver and passenger side interior boxes.

I see a 'instrument panel, backup lights, moonroof' 7.5 amp fuse in #9 on driver side.
But it seems if that is blown you would not be able to see the clock/radio display to be able to reset them.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:33 AM
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thoiboi - thank you for the fuse part numbers!
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:34 AM
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I believe that's also the same fuse you pull in case you need to reset the ECU, Also not something you need to worry about Don't get into analysis paralysis, Stick with the facts and keep it simple.
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Old 03-09-2019, 05:44 PM
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My son reported it is still starting and behaving as if there is no problem.
So after that one episode of zero power to the starter and dash lights dimming, no problem.
But he hasn't driven it anywhere out of precaution.

Loading up the van for the 3 hour drive tomorrow.
Thanks to everybody helping me on this thread I think I am taking everything i expect to need to pull the battery/tray/overflow and trace all the cables and inspect the grounding points.
Also have the diagram.
Taking a new Denso starter which will be swapped in while it is easily reachable.

However, I will not be prepared to swap out the cables.
Do not know if I can reuse the eyelets on the chassis side and may have to buy the cable/battery post clamp/eyelets from the parts store for assembling replacements.
I am taking wire brushes, baking soda, etc. to scrub the green corrosion off the attachment points and exposed copper strands.

Taking an assortment of fuses but not expecting to need any.

Also taking battery related tools for testing, charging, etc.

Not sure if I am forgetting anything.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:31 PM
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Thank you for helping on this thread.
Back from the weekend visit.

All went well as far as starter swap, ground cables removal, cleaning, filing all metal contact points, etc.
Had a tub of warm water and baking soda with assortment of metal and plastic brushes.
As I learned in advance via this forum, most definitely pull the battery, metal battery tray and tray support bracket.
Not time consuming and well worth the trouble for easy access to everything.
Ground cables looked perfectly serviceable until a direct replacement is ordered which will also include the positive cables.
Parts stores such as Advance do not offer them but have the separate pieces for cobbling together one.
Managed to 'open' the green cable hold clamps without braking them (!). That was the most time consuming puzzle of this job.
Battery and alternator tested fine before and after.
Turns out the Denso from Amazon is 'remanufactured'. (On the box is a note to return the core but no instructions from Amazon on the routine.)
Had to make a run to Home Dump for a 24" pipe and a breaker bar to crack loose the two 17mm starter bolts.
Accessing the lower bolt wasn't too bad with an extension.
With 173,000 on the car I went ahead and replaced the starter - needed or not.
New starter sounds a lot more aggressive and faster spinning.

Have no idea if that single mystery non-start episode will return at random.
All fuses checked out ok.
I suppose the starter relay could one day act up.

Car started up fine upon my arrival and ran fine on the drive following him to the house/garage.

Last edited by VA2000TL; 03-11-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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