MarcDavidoff

You can try a a 3x3 drain and fill and the filter but if anything it will likely only buy some time. You may not want to use Honda DW1 fluid as it is pretty expensive. Unless you find some like I recently did on CL for $2 a qt. I think others have used Maxlife fluid from Walmart with some success.
It may take a few weeks or so to find a trans for a decent price and mileage.

CP13

I wish I could give you more but I only drove it around the block once and I honestly did not feel any shudder or anything that is concerning... I tried SS, D5, R and all gears but it seemed to engage... granted that I did not drive it for long, I have to consider what the owner is saying.. that is it is slipping once the car gets warmer... he hasn't experienced any lock up or something in that nature... he said the most miles he drove the car in its current condition was about 15 miles one way...

I'm trying to decide if I should just get it for now, park it, and just source up everything I need for the fix and eventually get it done sometime in the summer...

MarcDavidoff

This is what I'd likely do. Take a little while to find a good trans. I looked around casually for quite a few months. Worked out well as a couple months after buying the new one, my trans died

Skirmich

Well I can tell you the trans wont lock up at least that´s not what happends when the trans fails from the design flaw.. The worst it could happen is that the trans wont engage Drive or Reverse..

Now you mention it only fails when its hot so that makes me believe the only issue it has its 3rd gear slipping.. You can change the ATF that will give you some time and clean possible debris that could lead to Drive or Reverse not engage. BUT 3rd gear slippage will always be a problem regardless of ATF changes..

I recommend doing this if you are ever in trouble of 3rd gear slipping.
3rd gear will slip under load always so if you let the trans in D5 it will try to force 3rd gear to save gas so it will shift earlier making it work harder. Go into SS and shift 3rd gear as late as possible if you can go into 2.5-3K RPM and apply very little gas when in 3rd if you press the pedal too hard it will slip hard... When you need power don't be shy and kick down to 2nd and repeat, Obviously avoid hwy and anything above 40mph you will get home eventually.

CP13

Well... I talked to this guy over the phone and he said he has done a swap before... I just saw his post on CL and he had the tranny from an 06 with 100k miles... he said he'll do parts and labor for $1250 including fluids... not sure how comfortable, or confident I am with this guy but at least he's giving me some perspective on how much labor cost should be around my area... he will warrant the tranny for 60 days but not his labor...

another thing that this guy mentioned was that he said the swap will involve using the flywheel from the accord... is this true?

I asked the owner if I can have the code for the CEL be read from advance/autozone and it is likely that they will let me drive it there...

Skirmich

I dunno if the CL has any different procedure but the "FLEX PLATE" (Only Manuals use Flywheels) does not come from the AV6.. You re use the TL Flex plate, But keep the AV6 Torque Convertor.

CP13

Now I'm getting confused... I called a transmission place down in South Carolina called willow Creek transmission... a friend of mine told me they have goox prices on rebuilt transmissions... anyhow, I did ask about doing an AV6 swap and the guy said they've heard it several times but discouraged me from doing it... he said there's really no gains in doing it... he is aware of the flawed acura design but he said once they perform their rebuild, they upgrade components such as pressure valves etc making it perform and last longer than oe... the price for a rebuilt av6 is little more but almost insignificant... he was suggesting to just go for the acura tranny instead... i did ask if the warranty will be voided if i decide to buy the av6 and use it in acura and said it won't at least in their case... but i will forfeit the core since its not a same swap and that is where the price differential will come in play....

I havent given up on the idea of getting a used tranny but was just confused when the guy said that the 06/07 was no different from the earlier versions... i understand the risks of going used so i was thinking of just doing a DIY to at least save up some labor cost in case i get a dud...

Skirmich

Avoid that shop he is obviously pushing you to their rebuild crap so it fails again out of warranty and you rebuild again in an endless cycle.

Just to inform you.. Borg & Warner did a serious diagnose on the trans flaw their result says that the only way tore move the issue is to replace the entire back cover with a re designed unit. Calving won't do crap once the clutch pack missaligns from the shaft.

Trust us that have the actual experience.

CP13

Thanks... I do and I am heavily leaning towards just using an AV6 from the yard... just need to get a decent one and to mnimize some expense, I might just do the swap myself if I can find someone to help me around my area... already posted in the regional section so I hope someone will be willing to lend a hand, space and time.... otherwise, I may need to tow the car all the way to my friends backyard shop in Maryland since I am skeptic to drive the car 50miles from my place... he has a lift and pretty much a fully equipped shop...

MarcDavidoff

I'd say get AAA plus if you don't already and have them tow it to your friends place.

Michael Hinchey

Was the original transmission ever brought in for recall? If not does anyone know if it would be under that recall umbrella? I own a 2002 tl and love it.

MarcDavidoff

No not anymore

CP13

I saw in the service records that the owner complained some shifting problems in 2009 before the warranty expired... the oil jet kit was already done prior to that....on the notes, the dealership just recommended a tranny flush and nothing else and thats what they ended up doing... If thr prior owner pushed the issue then maybe acura would have done something more than just a flush...

Michael Hinchey

That sucks. However your getting a hell of a smooth ride providing you get the kinks worked out with the tranny and other mentioned services. I was wondering if anyone knows for sure, would the bolts on this car be blue for sure if the tranny was recalled an d a new one was put in? I'm pretty sure I used to have records of this car and said it was done before. I do not habe blue bolts on the trans. Unless they can't be seen from just looking at the engine.

CP13

Id probably get the CEL code first to check any other issues it may have that are not tranny related... all codes point to the tranny then at least I know the fix for it... then decide to get it and park it until I am ready with the swap...

Yikes

Did you get the codes pulled?

P0401 is a common one on the Honda J series V6 (the Type-S has the J32A2).

My transmission failed in September but it only threw a P0750, which is a solenoid code. It didn't throw the death codes.

CP13

Not yet. I will try to do so this week, or over the weekend. P0401 is the EGR system right? Can a simple seafoam clean do the trick on that?

Yikes

No, you need to take the intake off of the car and clean it out by hand.

Honestly, the EGR system isn't, at all, vital to the normal operation of the vehicle (at least to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.) All EGR is is an exhaust gas recirculation system. It's put in place so the folks over at the EPA can sleep at night.

Yikes

Basically the code P0401 is "EGR flow insufficient". The late 1990s were a time of more than a few (some fatal) design flaws for Honda. The EGR system fell victim to this. Sometimes the valves themselves go bad, but more often than not the EGR passages get completely blocked with goop and hard carbon.

Sorry, that's the wrong video. Here is the right one:

CP13

Thanks for the info. Is the video the same for the 02 model? I will try to get the codes this weekend and see...

Skirmich

There is a few more steps involved for the 02..

CP13

How involved should I be if I do buy the TL besides the usual maintenance upkeep... I mean for a 13 y/o car with 105000 miles, it is not by any mean perfect but I just won't have much time anymore like I used to when I did not have any kids...
I used to own an E39 540 and that car was too demanding of my time... frequent brakes pad replacement, leaks here and there... cooling system issues, and some electrical gremlins... the car was fun, but at the same time, financially draining...

Granted that the car I am considering has done the T-Belt, recent brake job done, front struts and mounts replaced... no visible leaks so far... I am hoping that the only major thing needs to get done ASAP is the AV6 transmission fix...

For the past 4 years I've owned my nostalgic ST162 Celica, the only thing it demands form me is the usual maintenance and nothing really major... I am hoping that this is the same for the TL since it is a Japanese car...

Skirmich

Honda & Acura cars are not demanding at all.. Keep the engine oil clean and the ATF maintenance guidelines and the car will run for ever. There are no parts that wear out faster is a pretty reliable car all around except the transmission, which you are already resolving with the AV6.

01acls

The E39 is an expensive car to maintain. A car like that will cost a minimum $1k to maintain per year. The Acura is not like that, with the Acura it's more like $300 per year average. With the exception of the major service at 100k mileage $1000-1500.

The trans problems are actually blown out of proportion here on this site. Especially with the current rebuilds and av6 swaps bc of advances in materials and technology. Likewise, most people come on this site bc they're having issues. The truth is the overwhelming majority of 2g TL owners are not having issues. Even if they are, if you take into the account how old the car is, these wear and tear issues are expected.

Also, most people don't understand that a transmission is not ment to last forever. A 100k miles from a trans is considered good and these cars are getting that so no worries. As long as you maintain the trans, I'll be surprise if it doesn't last a 100k miles.

The Acura doesn't break down or start leaking fluids for no reason on a regular basis like the E39 would. I'm not sure why but thats just a fact.

Hope this helps clear up some things for you.

Skirmich

You mean like in the transmission? because.. Craiglist in my area has 4 TLs with blown transmissions right now.. And the VAST majority of Acurazine 2G owners had its trans die. Soo perhaps you mistook our TL with something else.. Because the trans IS AN ISSUE noted by almost every decent car buying page.. Carcomplaints, KBB etc they all note the transmission problems.. So I found your statement "The trans problems are actually blown out of proportion here on this site. " very hilarious...

Also 100K on a trans is good? what is this? a Ford? 100K on a trans is a GIVEN I would sue the shit out of Acura it the trans was Only Supposed to go 100K, I expect at least 300K on the trans alone.. 100K is borderline Taurus Transmission.

01acls

[mod edit -- no need to insult people]

1. What is the mileage on those tls? And how many tls are there in your area... 1000+?

2. You can't sue Acura for the trans not lasting 100k. They only warranty the trans for 3 years/36k, plus the extension.

3. But mostly for stating "I can tell a transmission's condition by it's transmission fluild color".

Yikes

[mod edit -- cleaning up]

The 2G Acura TL is, more than likely, the worst car Honda ever built. This (opinion) is based on the simple laundry list of pattern failures that plague the vehicle: faulty rear view mirrors, SRS sensors, timing belt tensioners, heated seat heating elements, window regulators, motor mounts, headlight seals (which ruin the HID ballast), electrical ignition switches (not a TL specific failure), warped front brake rotors, hood switches for the security system, transmission, tail light gaskets... I could go on. To put that into perspective, think of it like this:

Sex is like pizza. Even if it is terrible, it's still pretty good.

That's to say that by Honda standards, the 2nd generation TL is pretty bad from a reliability standpoint. But relative to other car brands, primarily American (and the Korean ones of the time period) it is still fairly reliable.

The transmission design flaw that plagued the majority of the North American Honda line up during the dawn of the 21st century was so bad that some users on this very board (if you go searching through the posts from the early 2000s) were going through multiple transmissions. One guy, in 2005, claimed to have gone through 7 transmissions in a single year with this TL Type-S. These transmissions could last 100,000 miles, they could last 10.

I've heard stories from Acura technicians that said newly installed transmissions sometimes failed when the customer was leaving the dealership.

All of that having been said, milage isn't a factor necessarily when trying to determine the remaining life inside of these OE transmissions.

Sure you can. In fact, tens of thousands of people across the United States and Canada did sue Honda in the early 2000s for the unacceptable reliability of these transmissions. Rather than drag their feet through a court battle, Honda cut their losses and decided to settle outside of court. This is the warranty extension you're thinking about.

[mod edit -- unnecessary]

01acls

[mod edit -- removing unnecessary chatter]

I don't see how a trans that had issues in 2005 is the same trans in 2016. Advances in technology, materials, updated transmissions, understanding the root causes of the failures, etc.

[mod edit -- removing unnecessary chatter]

Skirmich

What are you talking about?
Did you lost track of the conversation?

IF the car was brand new I would and everyone else could sue if the trans in the new TLX started to die in the 100K range with the same symptoms as ours did (3rd gear slip). Since you seem to be very uninformed let me get you up to speed.. TL trans started to die in the first 3-4 years of ownership a lot of those were already out of warranty, Since the fault was not in use wear but in a design flaw a heck ton of owners SUED Acura/Honda which let them to extend the warranty to 7 years for ALL affected cars that is all 2G TLs, CLs, Accords, MDX, Pilots, etc..

If Acura made the same mistake again today 2016 you can bet your ass we can and would sue Acura again so they extend the warranty and fix our damn cars.

Yikes

Because the only update the transmission in the 2G got was in 2005 (estimated, no one knows for sure when but this is when the 'blue bolt' transmissions started to appear), and that was a casing redesign more than anything else- Honda's attempt to increase the flow of ATF. It worked to help curb the unusually high rate of transmission failure the cars were experiencing, but it in no way solved the problem.

I had the updated case in my 2000 TL and my transmission failed with right around 130,000 miles on it back in September.

These transmission carry the potential to fail in more ways than one. Understanding the root causes doesn't help a rebuilder much because the rebuilder can't install parts from different transmissions into this particular unit- or any transmission they rebuild, for that matter.

Your suggestion about using updated "technology" and "materials" is an engineering problem and the majority of things engineered in the automotive industry today are engineered around cost more than any other factor- design is probably a close second.

When all is said and done, it's a design flaw. No rebuild or material update can fix a design that leads to inevitable failure of internal components.

You didn't really specify what time period you were talking about. You simply said "less than 100k miles".

If you experience transmission failure you can contact Honda customer relation and ask to be considered for a good will replacement, but the chances of Honda even paying for a single cent of the cost are comparable to the chances of winning the lottery.

01acls

^ Lol, I didn't specific what time period we're talking about? What's it say at the top... 2g tl. If you can't figure that out, even if I explain it to you, you won't be able to understand.

^^ Likewise for you Skrim. Mods, please move that post to the TLX forum.

MarcDavidoff

Can't we all get along ha

I agree but I actually think the 2G is a pretty good reliable car overall. Maybe not as bulletproof as some of the early 90s Hondas/Acuras for sure. Most of what you list- yeah they are pretty common issues with the 2G (although luckily I have not had any of the ones you listed happen to mine except for the trans). Motor mounts- yeah but pretty much common with most cars. But otherwise none of those are too terrible minus the obvious trans issue. Most cars have a laundry list of common nuisance failure points

CP13

It was not my intention to start flame wars on this thread... but I do value everyone's opinion as I myself is trying to learn more about the car just like before I decided to purchase an E39... and honestly, the E39 is probably the best designed car for my taste and the only BMW car that I will buy... as a matter of fact, I would buy a touring in a heart beat if I have the time and money to maintain it...

But on to the TL... this will actually serve a dual purpose... a dd and a family car on short trips around town... knowing that my kids will be riding in the backseat, I want to make sure that the car won't leave us stranded somewhere so it is pertinent that I address majority of the issues this car may have...

Some people may suggest just go but a new car for peace of mind, but I really don't have any plans for another car payment... granted that I am buying an older used car, updating the necessary parts and maintenance almost, essentially is, like buying a new car without any monthly dues...

Yikes

Seconded. Don't even get me started on the American stuff.

I couldn't agree more. The E39 5 series is a car that I fell in love with as a little kid way back in the late 90s. Talk about a gorgeous car. I think it's still the best looking 5 series BMW has ever made, but to each their own. I've actually been looking into buying an E39 535i with a stick, but one in decent shape with a decent price tag certainly is hard to come buy. Add the manual trans into the equation and I'm easily crossing state lines (I'm in Virginia) to find what I'm looking for.

Perhaps it's the inner early 20-something in my that is talking, but I've always wanted an E39 M5. When I wrap up my undergrad of engineering, I'm hoping to save some money to afford one. My only fear is the maintenance costs. They're significantly than the regular 5 series. But I digress.

In terms of being stranded on the side of the road, there's not much the 2nd generation TL offers there apart from the transmission failure you've already familiarized yourself with. Despite the list of pattern failures, there's really nothing that will stop you apart from the transmission. Put in an AV6 transmission in there and the car (provided it's maintained properly) is good for 300k miles. The Honda J series V6 is incredibly reliable, durable, and they've withstood the test of time, abuse, and hundreds of thousands of miles.

When I bought my '00 TL in August of 2012, it had just over 200,000 miles on it. It ran like a top- no smoke, ticks, knocks, vibrations, or roughness. It drove buttery smooth, like it had 50,000 miles on it. It still had a lot of pep and pick up. When I got rid of it (trans failure, no money to replace the trans- not even with a shitty rebuild. Long story, had to settle for $400. Still bitter about it to this day) it had just under 220,000 miles. Still ran like a top because I took care of it and only used 93 octane, top tier gasoline.

tl;dr: you have nothing to worry about with your family in the car as long as you sort out the transmission, put a decent set of rubber on it, and ensure the timing belt service is done with OEM parts.

CP13

Timing belt should be covered for now as well as the tires... so pretty much just the transmission and fluid flushes... oh, and a major detail...

One thing that I forgot to ask was fuel consumption... I've read on several pages that the average for a combined 50/50 driving is about 23/24 mpg... do you guys agree? If this is the case, it is decent for the engine size even comparing it to my 4banger that I currently drive now...

01acls

That's about right for MPG. A little less in the city.

01acls

Yikes

LOL, I know a guy that has a 1g M5. What a piece of shit. The car leaks fluilds just sitting there. He rarely drives it.

MarcDavidoff

I usually get between 23 low end to upwards of 30 all highway

Skirmich

22-24 city and 31 tops on hwy for me
The car is very efficient if everything is working properly, specially if the EGR system is in good condition not clogged.

CP13

Thanks... It does take premium right? Do you notice any difference if a lower grade is used? Any tapping whatsoever?