Levithan9

Hello everyone....

Been reading different stuff on here for a while, so after the great deal I got on this car, thought i'd post some pictures of whats going on.

A few weeks ago, we had a kid and his dad come in our shop. I'm a professional technician, just so everyone knows. Anyway, kid was driving the car, when he heard a pop, then lost all power. They decited to get the problem diagnoised, and went to Wal-Mart to get a to strap....since the car was less than a mile away. They didn't want to pay a towing fee.

I get assigned the car, and about 10 minutes of doing the usual checks, found out the timing belt snapped. UH OH !! Since it's an interference engine, more than likely the pistons got real intimate with the valves. Since it was almost time to go home, we decited to call then the next day.

We gave them the only options avaliable : #1-Put a timing belt on it and see if it runs. There's only about a 5% chance that the engine survived...but the botton line is, either way, it's gonna cost you $1,200 smackers. Option #2-put a used engine in it. But that option is almost $5,000. And believe it or not, but the labor time to R&R and engine on this car is 25 hours. Multiply that by 99.00 a labor hour. Option #3-Drag the car across the scales at a junk yard and get maybe $300 for it. They took a few days to think about it, then one day out of the blue, the kid called and asked if anyone here wanted to buy it. So i said screw it...why not. I looked online and LKQ had a used engine with 170K for $350. I figured i'd have me a summer project car. So, about 2 weeks later...the kid and his dad come by and sign the title over to me, i fork over the cash, and instead of paying the Diag fee, the service writer made the ticket disappear for a 12 pack of Dos Equis.

Next day, on my way to work, i stopped by the parts house and got me a timing belt for $18. I finished most of my cars, then got busy with the timing belt job. I broke my 1/2" breaker bar trying to get the crankshaft bolt off, which told me that the family drove this car 250,000 miles without ever changing out the timing belt. Or, it could have been that I had a 6 foot cheater bar on the end of my breaker bar!! I had a hell of a time getting the cams and crank lined up just right. Turn the crank a little, then the pistons would hit the valves...turn the cams a little, then the crank, then the cams....and so on and so forth....until everything lined up. Put the timing belt on, installed the spark plugs, double checked everything....went to fire it up....everyone holding their breath....AND THE BITCH ROARED TO LIFE !!!

Ok...i'm thinking that i should at least get a misfire...that one...ONE of the valves SHOULD be bent. I had my scanner hooked up and was watching live misfire data streams...and nothing. It was quiet as a church mouse. I coulden't believe my luck. I've been working on cars for god knows how long...and i think this is only the 3rd time i've seen an interference engine break a timing belt and not destroy itself.

I put in new plugs, new P/S belt and new ALT/AC belt, power steering flush, intake decarbon, an oil change, and get this...I went to check the cabin air filter because the air flow didn't seem right (very little with the blower on high) and it had NEVER been changed!! It was completly plugged up. The filter now sits in our Parts Of Shame display that we have in the waiting room. So, throw in a new cabin air filter, new air filter, put air in the tires...and test drove it. Man...this car ran like a scalded beast!!

I took it home 2 days ago, and because some dumb kid was driving it, it's getting a complete make-over. It's not in the best shape on the inside....but thats ok with me. I got the time, the equipment, and the connections to get this baby looking awesome.

I already removed the seats, the entire center console, and dismantled the drivers side lower seat cushion so I can have a new patch of leather sewed in...it's got a big tear on it. I'm planning on doing a step-by-step on my progress and posting it on the fourms here. I'm using my steam cleaner to get the crud out from all the nookes and crannies on the center console, and I rented a carpet cleaner today and spent a good 6 hours getting the interior carpet as good as I can without replacing it. My goal is to make this car look incredible to the lucky person who decides to buy it. It has 250,000 on the odometer, so it HAS to look every bit as clean as a new car would.

I need to replace the valve covers, as they're leaking oil, and 2 new struts with mounts up front....some hood shocks to hold the hood open, a good cleaning with the steam cleaner and my trusty pressure washer...clay bar it, compound it with Meguires 205 and 105, then wax and polish...and slap a for sale sign on it right by the high school.

Looking forward to doing the step-by-step and for your comments and feedback

Until then....

ErickUa5

Good one you got lucky there, Welcome to Acurazine.
Being that you know how to work on cars you'll save a lot of money.

Levithan9

Yeah....that's a no shit statement.

I'll tell ya...if I wasn't a mechanic, i couldn't afford one.

ErickUa5

Bought mine for $1000 back in 2010 with 206k almost everything neglected but running so I can relate.

cant_TL_me_nothing

I just went through replacing the engine in my TL after a "random engine failure" @ 161110miles. Dealership never found exactly what did it, but my new engine in great condition with 89k on it cost me $450. I would keep looking for engines you can definitely find a lower mileage engine just in case. Glad to hear it came back to life though.

3.2TLc

Welcome Levithan9 !!!

That's quite a storybook novel so say the least. Quick fix turnover and flip deal.
Once the car is cleaned up.....call the kid and offer him the car back at wholesale price.

Levithan9

http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/Le...tml?sort=3&o=7

Since I can't post pictures yet....here's a link to the pictures I have right now.

And as for selling the car back to the kid....he's dead set on getting a motorcycle. I live in Houston, Tx, and for a kid under the age of 20 to get a motorcycle...well, he's a dead man walking.

Nicks2001tl

Wait a second. You want to sell this car? It looks great.

dbotteicher

i just got mine 6 months ago with 192000 for 1000 bucks it wasn't in all that bad shape but just as yours the interior was little messed up and a few dings and dents and minor mechanical problems. slowly but surely mine is coming along, ive gotten everything mechanical taken care of and the interior all cleaned up now i just have to fix the couple dings and dents on the outside. other than that i must say that i absolutley love my car it is my favorite out of all the cars ive owned by far. i will keep this baby as long as i can they are great cars.

AznWay

iTrader: (8)

Sorry sound like @ss but quoting a customer $5K is wide too much. For that Price a person could do 6speed swap.. If you said 3K or less that would sound right.

1. Used engine $300-500+ $800
2. Timing Belt kit $50-100 ( OEM $300 ) $300
3. Spark plug, Gasket, Fluid an etc $200+ $400
4. Labor cost 1K $1500
5. Extra labor cost $1K

Bold price is what a shop would charge the customer #1+2+3+4= $3K
Plus #5 = $4K an i still can not see how you get to 5K

Levithan9

Firs off, we're not going to do a swap of anything at our shop. While I can do it, in a shop where production is what matters, its something were not gonna touch. Mostly because of the time consuming process.....customer doesn't have wiring harness, this adapter is wrong, this has these sensors, the other one doesn't. It's a pain in the ass, and we don't have time for it.

Next...$5,000 is about right. Your looking at a job that under the labor rate for flag hours, pays 25 hours. Right there is $2,500. I don't care if the engine it can be done in one day, if the labor is 25 hours....damn it, that's what I'm going to do it for.

Next, the prices you gave for the parts are about right....FOR YOU TO BUY THEM. When parts are bought from a shop, they have to be marked up. That's what pays the rent, that's what buys new equipment in order for your shop to be competitive, that's what keeps the GS (general service) kids employed. Let me give you an example....I got my laptop righ here, and I'm looking at spark plugs for this car. I can go NGK or Denso. Denso is the OEM supplier, and the OEM plugs are 8.99 a piece. That's $53.94 for spark plugs. Next, they need to be marked up....which is usually cost times 2.3. So, the cost of the spark lugs comes out to $124.00. Now, the service writer has a little leeway in what the price is, but he needs to keep his profit margin above 64% in order for the shop to stay afloat.

So, while I agree with you that 5K is a shit load of money for an engine on an old car, its not up to me on what the price should be. I don't own the shop.

AznWay

iTrader: (8)

I understand all about the markup price base on what shop has to charge its customer that why I put it in 2 different prices. I know everybody price is different an mainly base on what person charges per hour. Also I know its not your fault on pricing an customer should always shop around before get work done.

Skirmich

Heck for 5K I rather get another TL-S altogether dunno how your shop stays afloat at all those prices are ridiculous..
25 hours for an engine change? Do they lift the engine with a Rope and Stones? or its a 5 man pull?.


I have like the most common tools in my garage and I can rent a lift on Autozone and still be done faster and cheaper than that.. Seriously.. If your shop charges 25 hour for an engine change they might as well go full GREED with Timing Belt job for 12 hours, Valve Adjustment for 6 hours or a Tire change for 2 Hours.. all = Total Rippoff..




Back in Track.. Sweet deal on the TL! Congrats and Welcome to Acurazine.

Levithan9

Yes....25 hours for an engine change on an Acura TL Type-s. that's what Alldata says, and 24.7 is what Mitchell says. The entire suspension is supposed to come out, evac the ac system, drop exhaust, remove the complete wiring harness, both axles, then drop the entire sub-frame with the trans attached. Then, remove engine and trans from sub frame, then remove trans from engine, then attach new engine ( which is just a short block ) then remove all components from old engine and transfer to new engine, attach engine/trans to sub frame, install sub frame, and so on and so on....

It's a bitch. If you've never been a professional mechanic ( one who does it for a living) then you have no room to speak. It's hard work, and the tools are not cheap. I didn't buy it, I didn't build it, I didn't break it. I just ended up with it.

Now, aside from all that, the problem can almost always be traced back to the owner of the car. 250,000 miles and no timing belt change? Struts that are broken, and chewing up tires every 10,000 miles....but still won't get it fixed. And so from that standpoint, things just get worse and worse...more and more problems until it gets to expensive to fix, or, as in this case, something catastrophic happens that ends the cycle. The kid never intended to take car of his ride...instead he opted to just ride it until it broke.

Which it did.

Then I got it.

Then I will fix whats wrong with it.

Then I'll sell it.

Then I'll go on vacation with the money.

3.2TLc

Ya may be able to take a long cruise or go gambling with all that hard earned work !!!

fsttyms1

Welcome to the forum.

That said, Im sorry but that is beyond hwy robbery. 5k to put a used (one could get a lower mileage motor for 3-500$) engine in? 25 hr to do it?? BS. I could do the job in my garage in 4-5 hours. Yes, it can be done, i have done it.

3.2TLc

Yeah Fsttyms1, ya know these shop owners have a bit more overhead to absorb.....
thus justifying their somewhat unethical business tactics by bending the customer over.

Nicks2001tl

3800.00 was quoted to put an engine in my Jeep GCL. I swear when they quoted me that price they were licking there lips. I said no thanks. My point is he is my mechanic of 25 years and when he quoted me that price that he looked at the book. He has cut me deals on timing belts and other stuff but when I asked him if there is a better option on the engine he said this is it. With 245,000 on it didn`t think twice about junking it. Also needed a tranny.

TLer trash

How about option #4? You spend an hour or two doing a cylinder leakdown test instead of assuming the valves are bent? I've got no problem with your flat rate, or your pricing, as I run a shop and understand that it's never as easy or profitable as everyone thinks. I do however, think the situation was not handled in a very professional manner. As far as I'm concerned, you obtained the car under false pretenses. If the owners thought the car only needed a timing belt, do you think you would have gotten it for $300?

3.2TLc

Sell it to a punk and go on vacation !!!

nb_exit9er

Main reason why i tell people to stay away from these shops. No honesty what so ever. Some of them don't know how to treat people the right way. You don't know their financial situation to judge their lack of maintenance. I bet you are very happy with the $300 dollar car you got. Im sure you will put a huge for sale sign on it and ask $3000-4000 for it.

Skirmich

Seems your trying to explain to me how to drop our J Series.. Well let me point out a few mistakes:


A) No need to remove the entire suspension (Loose ball joint to move the knuckle and remove axle)
B) No need to drop Exhaust just unbolt headers to cat back.
C) Remove the wiring harness? Hell no just pop the main from ECU.
D) No need to remove the entire sub-frame (Loose some bolts at most).
E) Engine and Trans come out from the top with a hoist/lift like most common cars unless you are only dropping the trans which comes out from sub-frame.




I don't care if the Pope says 25 hours its a 6-10 hour top job in my garage should be the same or less in your shop with all the tools or its a ripp-off..

Levithan9

Perhaps I failed to mention it, and after reading my first post, indeed I did. Yes, the customer was given the option of doing a cylinder leak down test, but because we would have charged him another hour on top of the diag, he declined.

You make it seem as if though I plotted and schemed on getting this car when it came in. Shit was broken on it, it's leaking oil, the struts are bad, the inside looked like a dogs ass, and it broke the timing belt on an interference engine. This was not a car I had envisioned on getting into my possession at any time.

If you run a shop, then you know that sometimes the cost of labor and parts can send some customers to the hospital. I've had the opportunity to buy several cars that have come thru our shop...like a 2007 Suzuki forenza that also broke the timing belt and destroyed the engine, or the 2005 Mitsubishi eclipse that had so much wrong with it that you couldn't give it to me. Or a Chevy equinox with a bad transmission.

The customer had every option available to him....he just decided to cut his losses by getting rid of the car. It wasn't me who chased him down and harped and bother him to sell me the car, but instead it was him who asked if anyone here wanted to buy it. Also, I should mention that 3 weeks went by before he made a decision.....and in that time I'm sure he explored other options in which he could get more money for the car.

The only reason I decided to try and buy it was because I knew I could get an engine for about $500-600. Now the shop would NOT have given him that option, and in fact the shop did not give him the option for a junk yard engine. Mostly because using a junk yard engine has caused nothing but headaches for them in the past, and if we're going to warranty an engine, its going to be rebuilt from an engine rebuilder that will also stand behind that engine. From a company standpoint, that makes good business sense. As an individual, I'd go junk yard as well, but I know the risks involved. Over the years, I've put many junker engines in vehicles, installed everything, added oil, coolant, and that jazz, only to try and start it and find out the junk yard engine is seized up as well, or blown rings, or busted valves. Now, your doing the whole damn job all over again. But this time, your doing it for free.

So, while I can understand your judgmental attitude, all I can say is, you weren't there.

TLer trash

If you offered leakdown check, and they declined, I have no problem. Also the fact that they kept you waiting that long makes the transaction sound a lot more legit. I completely agree with you about used parts or even owner supplied parts. For what it's worth, Realtime labor guide shows just over 15 hours to do a remove, install, and transfer parts. I don't think I'd do it as a customer pay job for any less.

number_twelve

People who neglect their cars and don't take care of them have it coming. Cars and homes are what we spend the most money on, so it would be in everyone's interest to care for those items, and learn how to fix and maintain them themselves in order to minimize financial losses on them.
Levathian9, I hope you go to Italy on the money made on this car!