bensonchuong

I'm having issues with a P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Code.
It's not acting like a normal misfire. I have no idle or power issues 95% of the time.

The issue only appears when it's cold outside. The last time I had this issue (P0302, P0305, I think) was in March 2012 when it was really cold outside (-20C). Since then I've seafoamed the intake and gas, replaced pcv, replaced rear main seal (unrelated), cleaned throttle body. I thought it was fixed but, last week we had a 0C (32F) day and the misfire code is back.

The drive prior to the CEL coming on, while the engine was still cold, it would shudder a bit just as you stop at the light, rpms go down to about 500 and the car shakes a bit, 1 or 2 seconds later rpms will go back to 750 and it will idle fine. Happened the first 3 or 4 lights I stopped at, everything was fine after that. Parked the car outside at work for the day and when I was pulling out of the parking lot after work the CEL light came on. Drive home didn't have any shudder issues, pulled codes when I got home.

Here's what I got:

P0304 Cyl 4 Misfire
Freeze Frame Data:
Fuel Sys 1 OL
Calc Load 55.3%
ETC 18C
STFT B1 0%
LTFT B1 -7.0%
MAP 56 kPa
Eng RPM 1829
Veh Speed 26km/h
IAT 7C
TPS 16.9%

P1399 Misfire Any Cyl
P1399 Acura Temp Misfire
P0304 Acura Cyl 4 Misfire

I reset the light and since we haven't had any cold days again, the light hasn't come on. The quick dip in idle doesn't happen when it's warm out either.

Thanks in advance for replying.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Temperature prone misfires are one of the toughest to diagnose due to limited time of the symptom being present. Engine warms up quickly if it occurs on a cold start so one must rely on a broad, live data stream to gather helpful information to assist in pointing the technician in the area of fault. As here, there is much information that is not given in the snapshot therefore not much can be given AND one cannot determine if the issue is electrical, mechanical or BOTH. However, the only thing that catches my concern would be the LT fuel trim being at -7% which is indicating the engine was pulling injector pulse width to make up for excess fuel or not enough air (RICH CONDITION) on last closed loop analysis. Your ST readings are zero obviously because the engine is currently in OL fuel status therefore is determining AF ratio by predetermined numbers that aren't based off of sensor information.

I would most likely suspect one of the following:
1. Loss of ignition on suspect cylinder
2. Leaking injector w/ignition off and fuel rail pressurized (very rare on Honda/Acura)

Code 1399 is has me caught on clogged EGR ports in the plate area and would be the first place I'd investigate. Also, 1399 has suspect of possible valve clearance out of spec. I know that my TL threw a 1399 typically on a cold start when the EGR passages were clogging up. That's the ONLY time I've ever seen that code appear on my own as well as customers TL/CL's. I say this because P0300 is the universal code for 'Multiple misfire detected' and that even appears on my Acura if I'm doing a SeaFoam with too much trickle into the vacuum line. The 1399 code is a different type of random misfire on these J series motors.

bensonchuong

P1399 as indicated in the Service Manual is the first trip misfire code that doesn't turn on the CEL. It's stored temporarily. It's there so that techs can test drive and then scan to make sure the misfire is fixed or still present without 2 drive cycles.

Since you mentioned EGR, I'm going to pull the plate to check if it's dirty. Has anyone done this before, did you need any gaskets or can the old ones be reused. They are very expensive here in Canada, around $40 each. Also is it really important to pull the whole intake or can we just clean it with the top plate off?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Gaskets are reusable, yes. As for the actual job, remove the top plate and inspect the passages that are easily seen right on top. Also, be sure and flip the lid over and clean those passages as well. Then, there will be a hole going down to the EGR valve itself to your right if you're facing the engine bay (still looking beneath the intake plate). I normally pour some SeaFoam in that passage as well and let that soak while cleaning the channels. Once it's soaked into the EGR hole, you will see the SeaFoam begin to seep out of the EGR valve down on the side of the block where it is attached. Be sure that this hole is also cleaned. Once your finished, drive with LIGHT ACCELERATION to prevent the engine from sucking up too much chemical when the EGR valve opens during during it's normal operation. This will help prevent any possibility of vapor locking the engine IF it were even likely to occur.

Let us know how things went.

bensonchuong

I just found a really good video on the EGR cleaning and how not to install the gasket upside down:

When you mentioned pouring seafoam down the EGR hole, did you mean the small ones around or the big one on the right side beside the throttle body (he points to it around 6:30).

01tl4tl

remove the intake manifold from the engine to clean egr system
set on workbench and properly clean all the way thru the LENGTH of the egr passage THRU the manifold
from the 2 holes under egr valve- to the big open end..thats why we suggest a wire coat hanger

clean all 6 ports and passage (99s 1 port)
rinse out all the crud
use of solvent tank helpful, or the water rinse method
remove all sensors so you dont screw them up
rinse well and DRY FULLY

caution:place the top gasket on the work bench exactly `as it came off`
DO NOT FLIP OVER on install or it blocks an egr port in cover- will require removal to flip and fix..it fits but is wrong!

carb cleaner better than seafoam for this job, seafoam loves heat
it takes 3 cans carb cleaner (non chlorine) to really do it well!

multi misfire code is usually 1 bad coil- rough idle and other symptoms all point there as a starting point
Test if its the listed cyl by removing coil power, no rpm change = bad coil
expect slight rpm drop on good coils
its often one of the listed cyls by code, but verify!!

after coil swap to test, or install new coil
pull CLOCK fuse for 1 minute
that clears codes and forces self test scan = so it can see the new part is functioning

01tl4tl

wow just skimmed the vid,,what a pos

the holes he cleans are the egr ports,,well part of them
BUT
you have to ask yourself,,if those holes are clogged,,where does that process begin?
is the passage tube that provides that recycled EXHAUST GAS going to be bigger than the holes it supplies? not likely
so how is cleaning less than 1/2 the system solving the real problem???
It may make it a little better.... but we aim for FIXED around here

see Thermoblock spacer install and EGR Cleaning in the diy section
ignore the part of removing studs to install longer- thats only for install of special spacer
note the pics are a 99, only 1 egr port but same passage thru the manifold length
torque on bolts is critcal !!!!!

lube egr valve arm while its off,,make sure it moves freely-smoothly
egr operates at all times except idle and full throttle
so cruddy exhaust air is always being pumped thru

Note2: clean throttle body air plate with carb cleaner

Note3: Clogged PCV= Positive Crankcase Ventilation device (10$) can cause leakage of engine oil past the rear main seal !!! proven on several ziner cars already
when it cant release pressure, it goes to next easy place-rear main seal,,

victus1

Before you remove the EGR valve for cleaning, make sure you buy that small gasket for it. Mine fell apart after I removed the valve. You need to pull up the center pin of the EGR valve with a flat screwdriver and spray carb cleaner in there. Keep flushing out all the gunk with carb cleaner and let it soak for a half hour. Don't forget to clean the port where the valve sits.


And check out EricTheCarGuy on youtube. He has a nice video on how to clean the IM intake of a TL.

victus1

I am in Canada and I get all my parts from either Rockauto or the US dealer Curry Acura (http://www.curryacuraparts.com/). At your door in 2-3 days and no extra duty/taxes or surprises.

You need to remove the whole intake manifold and the EGR valve itself to clean it and the all the passages. Do it now before the weather gets colder. You will need 4 cans of carb cleaner and lots of rags.

victus1

Also, did you change all your spark plugs? Very easy job. Old plugs may develop micro cracks in the insulator and the cold temps can open them and make them leak electrical current to ground and not spark the combustion chamber at all. Coil packs may develop micro cracks and malfunction too. I would seriously look into this as well and eliminate it from the possible suspects.

bensonchuong

Took off the cover and cleaned out all the channels and holes. Its was pretty dirty maybe 50% clogged on the channels and really plugged up right above the big intake hole.

Used carb cleaner on the cover, didn't work too well. A paint brush dipped in Seafoam worked a lot better to get the gunk off the cover, then rise with carb cleaner to clean it all off. Used q-tips to clean out the egr ports.

Duct taped a small 3/8" rubber hose to the end of my vacume and used it to suck out all the crap from the egr intake (big hole on the right side) tube went down about 3 inches. Then scrapped around all that space, vacumed, poured down seafoam and vacumed that out a few times till clean and wiped clean with carb cleaner. Cleaned out all the oil in the middle. Put it all back. Now we wait and see if it throws codes when it gets cold.

bensonchuong

The hole where the exhause gas comes from is a lot bigger (1/2") than the little holes to to cylinders on the cover (1/4" on the gasket). And his holes were plugged because the gasket was backwards blocking the flow.

Cleaned the throttle and the IAC valve when I had everything out for the rear main seal. Replaced PCV with that seal just in case.

bensonchuong

Plugs only have about 70,000 km on them. I took them all out earlier in the year when I had this issue and they looked fine. OEM plugs from Acura (no other options up here in Canada).

01tl4tl

Yes, buy 1 egr valve gasket for safety
as well as 2 tb spacer to manifold gaskets- 1 per side,,
you need to run a wire hanger thru those 2 -under- egr valve holes=
then all the way thru the entire length of the manifold,,not 3 inches

also get 1, IACV cover gasket in case it tears

you want the OE= NGK plugs, but we can buy them at any parts stores for 8 bucks each instead of 25! at dealer

most of us run the NGK Iridium or NGK IRIDIUM IX,,99s came stock with them,,00-03 had platinums stock, and gen3 went back to irids- so 00-03 are good to upgrade
irids are better and last longer, now they are cheaper than plats!
must be all those people wanting jewelry made of platinum has jacked its price

my point on passage size is that they all clog
there is even a special tool to run the egr passages!
buddy with everything snap-on has a set of different sizes,,going to use them on mine

70KMS canada weather,,see `severe service` schedule for your maitenance needs
Tbelt goes down to 60K Miles,,everything sooner due to colds effect on rubber= not a good thing
and other parts subject to overnight freezing etc
suggest synthetic 0w-20 oil for you guys

01tl4tl

removing a coil can cause its failure sometime down the road
set one down just a little hard and blam- thats the start of its end
many are damaged at plug change, then a few months later get misfire code

bensonchuong

My ex-'99 ran double platinums from the factory.

I will try to pick up some Iridium IX from the states when I head down there. No one carries them here, you can't even special order them. Double Platinums are only avaliable at the dealer. The only NGK plugs our part stores carry are copper V-Power and platinum G-Power ($6 each).

Most dealers here in southern Canada don't even recommend timing belt change at 100k km (60k miles). Acura says its required if you "regularly" drive in -29C (-20F) or colder weather, we might get 2 weeks tops of that type of cold. Spark plug interval remains the same at 168k kms (100k miles). The only things different is more frequent oil changes, air filter changes (due to road salt/sanding in the winter) and transmission fluid (48k intervals) which everything should be doing anyways.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Keep us posted man, hope that takes care of it.

01tl4tl

maybe the 99s with 1 coil had plats, then 6 coil model switched?
I dont know- dont care,,going by what others have posted

main point being= use the correct ngk plugs
and remove intake manifold from engine to properly clean egr system!!

vtec260

I bought mine from Canadian Tire when they had 25% off sale so you can find them locally in Calgary. Part Source will have them, too. BTW, thanks for your pics on fixing heated seats. I had to fix both bottom and back parts over last couple of years and they have been holding up nicely.

photog

if it helps, ive been having the same EXACT situation with my 07 TL 5spd. Been going on for about a year since purchasing the car as "certified-preowned". Aside from never having my CEL appear, I have had all the same symptoms as you. Seems to be cold weather or high altitude that trigger the misfire every time. Happens to me once ever 2 weeks or so, misfire is audible from the intake-manifold area under the hood, and from the rear of the vehicle when it happens. I too have FULLY seafoamed my motor (intake method as well as crank case, and fuel tank...thanks to 01tl4tl's super helpful seafoam posts across the zine), swapped out for brand new NGK iridium plugs at 75k miles, inspected my coils, replaced a leaking fuel pump seal, replaced malfunctioning Purge Control Solenoid, and done a 3x3q trans fluid drain/fill. The car went to an Acura Specialist for a week last month, he could not "replicate the misfire" with the HDS computer hooked up on multiple driving sessions throughout the week (weather never got cold enough). The car is bone stock with no performance mods etc. Been to multiple dealers who cant find anything wrong with car or replicate the misfire either. Scratching my head at this one, car is SUCH a money-pit.

bensonchuong

Here we go again. Yesterday morning, light snow, about -5C outside went to warm up the car and that darn light came on again. This time it wasn't driven yet. Scanned Codes right away and here's what I got:

MIL DTC
P0302 MISFIRE No.2 CYLINDER
Stored Codes
P0300 RANDOM MISFIRE
P0302 MISFIRE No.2 CYLINDER
P0304 MISFIRE No.4 CYLINDER
P0305 MISFIRE No.5 CYLINDER
Pending Codes
P1399 Multiple / Random Misfire Detected (Acura)

Freeze Frame Data
DTC for which Freeze Frame was Stored P0302
Fuel System 1 Status Open Loop
Fuel System 2 Status Not Supported
Calculated LOAD Value 37.25 %
Engine Coolant Temp 11 °C
Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 -1.56 %
Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 -8.59 %
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure 37 kPa
Engine RPM 1,178.75 rpm
Vehicle Speed Sensor 0.00 km/h
Intake Air Temperature 2 °C
Absolute Throttle Position (TPS) 9.41 %

I reset the light and drove off to my friends place. Experienced the RPM dips everytime I stopped at a red light, it always happens twice, rmps go down to around 350 and back to 600 then down to 350 and back to 600, then proper idle. I had the lights on and they would dim a bit. Drives fine when moving, no hesitation or roughness. Parked outside for about 6 hours, restarted fine, no lights but still had to rpm dips on the way home.

Today I'm going to replace my spark plugs. Picked up NGK (4095) IZFR6F-11 Laser Iridium Spark Plugs from O'Reilly in Palm Springs.

So to summarize what's happened:
Previous owner, replaced coil pack 5
Jan 2012: -30C weather, P0300, P0304, P0305
Swapped coils, 4 and 3, 5 and 6
early Oct 2012, 0C weather, P0304
Cleaned EGR Ports
late Oct 2012, -5C weather, see above

bensonchuong

Thanks for the feedback on the heated seats. Glad I could help.

I was actually refering to the Laser Iridium, not the Iridium IX. I heard the IX have a shorter life than the Laser Iridiums.
Source: http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/DYK...idium%20IX.pdf
At $10US a piece for the Lasers (O'Reilly) or $21 a pair for the IX (Canadian Tire), I went with the Laser Iridiums.

3.2TLc

With the "misfire" codes , you may want to consider buying one coil pack and try to isolate the misfire by replacing one coil at a time....until you notice a difference in idle rpm's. Check all the wiring connections and vac hoses.

While you're at the parts store, have the electrical system load tested. Make sure that the cooling system is working properly, have it pressure checked.

bensonchuong

You think I should still try this if I don't notice any issues at idle. Once the car is running or stopped, there is no issue with the idle except for the 2 or 3 shudders right after you come to a stop. A bad coil would cause poor idle all the time (I think).

bensonchuong

So I changed out the spark plugs to the NGK Laser Iridiums. Slight improvement in power at certain rpms. So far it's been cold and no check engine light but the shudder when coming to a stop is still there. The rpms will dip 3 or 4 times (fluctuates between 600 and 300 rpm) right after you come to a stop. Then the car idles perfectly fine. I did notice today I can make it do the three fluctuations once stopped by shifting to N (it will dip three times and then run normal) then when I shift back to P it dips 3 times again. Any Ideas?

01tl4tl

cleaned egr system?

were the lazers 8 bucks each?

bensonchuong

I cleaned the EGR system already. The Lazers are the NGK (4095) IZFR6F-11 Laser Iridium Spark Plugs reg $15 ea, I got them for $10 at O'Reilly.

victus1

It could be an injector not firing properly at lower rpm. But you would need another injector to swap one at a time and troubleshoot this proposal.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Look at your short/long term fuel trims. They're are reading in negative values and when the code was captured your ECM was trying to take fuel from the mixture. This tells me when the issue occurs you're running RICH. I'd call an issue in the ignition system somewhere because if the spark becomes weak/non-existant, the AFR becomes just that: RICH. Try jumping the loop in between the MFI relays points for the primary ignition components just in case the relays sending a reduced voltage. Also, have you already ran SeaFoam through the motor yet? I'd try running that threw the intake by a primary vacuum source. You'd be amazed at what issues that stuff can fix!

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Sorry OP, I just realized that I was the one initially discussing this with you, lol. As I mentioned, both ocassions your PCM caught the problems it was registering a RICH condition. Check and ensure your fuel pressure regulator is attached to a vacuum source. Also, seeing that you have access to a datastream capable scanner, this should be pretty damn easy to resolve given I could talk to you in person and walk you through some things...which I'd be willing to do if you need some extra assistance. Just PM your phone number and I'll call you. Maybe we can get this issue resolved together!

bensonchuong

Seafoam in the inkate, oil and gas tank done during the summer. Not much smoke. I regularly run injector cleaner in my cars.

My code reader is not capable of real time data. It only reads the freeze frames.

The engine running rich makes sense because when it cold outside that helps the engine and converters warm up.

The long term fuel trim seems to be worst from the beginning of the month. -7 vs -8.6. Is this pointing to an injector problem ?

The check engine light came on again today when I went for lunch. Will scan it again later tonight when I get home. Also discovered that traction control is disabled when the light comes on. Had to restart the car to get up an icy hill. 25 cm of snow tonight

cdn_rider

i live in calgary too(well, strathmore) and ive never had this issue until last weekend. i know that i have a cylinder 3 misfire, its been there since the beginning of time(before i even got the car) and ive never gotten a CEL.

that being said, last weekend, i started the car, it was very choppy, RPMs fluctuated and it almost died, then recovered, but no CEL and it hasnt happened since. mind you, i didnt start the car for almost a week before this happened.

im pretty sure it has to do with the spark plugs because i havent done anything that you have done and i still have a similar issue and ive never replaced my plugs, i guess im due.

also, pleasehelp me with my heater element since youre so close lol i have no heat on my cold white ass!

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

The more and more I think about this, the more I start to believe you need a valve adjustment. Quite honestly, I've never seen this problem on a Honda/Acura J-motor except with a clogged EGR system and that never gives negative fuel trims! It would explain the misfire on a cold start issue because there's less tolerance between the valves and rocker than it is on a warm/hot motor. Also, a valve that does not open all the way (due to excess tolerance) will cause a rich condition due to less air entering the combustion chamber.

Have the valves spec'd on a cold motor and tell me what they come out to. I'm very anxious to know the answer to this problem...

bensonchuong

I'd really like to try other alternatives but I guess I should fork out the money for another valve adjustment.

bensonchuong

-10C all day today, drove 4 drive cycles and so far no check engine light or idle shudder. Possibly computer needed to get used to the new plugs?

01tl4tl

have you removed the TB and cleaned the IACV idle air control?
bad coil code/misfore code means buy 1 coil and start trying it
reset ecu via clock fuse method after each move of coil or repacement
clears codes and forces self test

When coils were swapped before-- when codes known, did code follow a certain coil
thats why we move them~ to find the bad one

photog: have your motor mounts ckd, you are gen3 with an 07,,this is gen2 area
BUT
you have vacuum boosted motor mounts front and rear
they soften the vibrations at idle on gen3 for comfort
a bad mount will cause a mystery vac leak and engine miss!!
one of our members drove for a year like that!

on gen2 they stiffen the mount on throttle application

reminder- seafoam smoke is directly related to engine and CAT HEAT reacting with the oils that are seafoam

01tl4tl

just in case: remove PCV, off line in rear valve cover to TB inlet tube
spray clean with carb cleaner or deep creep- ball must move freely!!
any restriction causes problems
new ones 8 bucks in the States

bensonchuong

PCV was changed in summer with rear main seal.

Engine mount was changed with the rear main seal also, vacume system is working normally.

I have swapped the coils around and that hasn't changed the misfire, biggest problem is you don't feel the misfire, not even a hiccup.

IACV was cleaned when I did the rear main seal during the summer. So far no idle problems, on a cold start up rmps go up to 1200 and come down shorty. I think the IACV controls this.

Light poped up again today. Only 2 cylinder misfires this time.

MIL DTC
P0304 MISFIRE No.4 CYLINDER

Stored Codes
P0300 RANDOM MISFIRE
P0304 MISFIRE No.4 CYLINDER
P0305 MISFIRE No.5 CYLINDER

Parameter Description Results
DTC for which Freeze Frame was Stored P0304
Fuel System 1 Status Open Loop
Fuel System 2 Status Not Supported
Calculated LOAD Value 41.96 %
Engine Coolant Temp 59.00 °F
Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 0.00 %
Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 -7.03 %
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure 12.44 inHg
Engine RPM 1,300.50 rpm
Vehicle Speed Sensor 11.81 mph
Intake Air Temperature 42.80 °F
Absolute Throttle Position 10.20 %

bensonchuong

Didn't find time to Post earlier. But here's an update

Over the weekend I did the valve adjustment. Took 6 hours (not including the broken bolt). Most of the intake valves were loose. Exhaust were all too tight. Cylinder 4 exhaust had no gap. Cylinder 5 was getting close. Triple check all the gaps before reinstalling.

I broke a valve cover bolt during the reinstall. had to run to the junk yard on sunday to grab one. Lucky the broken end came out easily. I also cleaned the intake and throtle while it was off. They didn't look dirty at all, just slightly brown. No black carbon deposits. I was amazed how well the cover seals were. They were all still soft and flexible after 265 k km. Egr port was clean under the intake. There wasn't much gunk left after cleaning it from the top cover side.

I've noticed the adjustment has changed the rev noise of the engine. Also my sometimes slightly longer crank time to start the car has so far gone away.
The car runs smoother. Nicer shifts. Better low rpm power. Not sure about has mileage yet but I consistently got 11 l / 100 km prior.

Tomorrow will be cold and snowy again. We'll see if this fixes the problem. Hopefully

I did take some pictures. Let me know if any one want to see them.

3.2TLc

Hey, thanks for posting back. Sounds like you're on the right track. Good luck with all the effort involved working on the solution to the misfire problem.

It'd be considerate to throw up some "Pics" for anybody else needing some help with the valve adjustment. Most of the time, this work is often overlooked and neglected !