acuraguynj

I believe different quality levels does depend on where the vehicle is made.

The Acura TL and TL type S will always be a high quality vehicle made in the Honda Plant in Ohio, however it can't be as good as Made in Japan or made in Germany. I still think the TL is solid and a well built car, but I am always expecting more.

Lexus still makes all their vehicles in Japan and there is something about their cars that are so solid, that you don't expect any problems.

BMW is made in Germany of course, so you are thinking that the quality is very high there too (although some say BMW still has quality issues).

Speaking of which, the Mercedes SUV, ML320 made in AL, is still a great and popular SUV, but people could tell that the finish & quality was not of German caliber.

What it comes down to is that all these cars are of all high quality, but Made in Japan and Made in German as opposed to Made in Ohio is just another level higher in quality.

Just thinking here ;-)

Steveb

Just look at the data compiled in Consumer Reports. Acura TL is above average in reliability across the board whereas BMW recieves more average ratings.

Whether Honda's are built in Ohio or in Japan they have similiar reliability ratings. IMO It's the company, not the workforce.

Guest

I agree about the reliability aspect, but what about the quality (i.e. paint, and other reported problems)?

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Current:
'98 Acura 3.2TL Green/Parchment

Soon:
'02 Acura 3.2TL-S Aegean Blue/Ebony

Steveb

Consumer Reports reliability categories include paint and body rust among others. TL is rated above average. What other reported problems? I think to a certain extent reliability and quality go hand and hand.

Guest

Ppl have report paint not being even or swirl marks, bad moldings and emblems not straight.

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Current:
'98 Acura 3.2TL Green/Parchment

Soon:
'02 Acura 3.2TL-S Aegean Blue/Ebony

OldGuy

I felt the same way a couple of years ago when I bouht a '97 prelude instead of a '98 Accord because the prelude was still built in Japan. I had nothing but trouble with the prelude. Traded it about 18 months later for a TL. The quality of the TL is every bit as good as the prelude was. I also owned an older Integra made in Japan. My Ohio built TL is just as good. I have now ordered a TLS. It is not the country, it is the process and the attitude. I don't know why the big 3 can't duplicate it.

ChrisK

I'm reminded of my younger days when I was just out of High School working at Honda. As you know, back in the those days up to the early/mid 90s Honda Accords where built in 3 different plants. USA, Canada, and Japan. You could tell where one came from via the VIN#. Anyway, according to some of the old school mechanics there, they could usually tell were the car came from. How you ask? Well, as exlpained to me by some of them, when you work on the cars for so long, you start to notice things. USA made Accords used to have many stripped bolts, stripped screw heads, and other jammed in parts when factory workers take their impact wrenches and force things in. There where also some very slight mis aligned things and part too. Sure, all the cars had this from time to time, but the USA ones where the worse, then Canada, then Japan. Now this was no scientific study, just frustated Honda Service Techs experiance over years. Take a look at a general USA factory Union worker who feels under paid, and can't wait to go home. Then take a look at a factory worker in Japan, whos companies for the most part take very good care of their employees, sometimes even house them, and employees generally have long lasting loyalties to their companies. Who do you think will have more pride in their work?

A good example would be to have an aftermarket alarm installed in your car. One place puts everything in wireloom, zip ties everything, hides the brain unit, and uses quality crimps. The the other company installes the same alarm in the same type of car, but take even more time to hide every alarm wire, and makes sure it blends into the OEM wire harness flawlessly. You can't see any aftermarket wire loom, and the black electrical tape matches the OEM almost perfectly. They hide the brain unit well, and solder, and insulate every connection they make. Both installs work, and perform flawless. But are they equal? Or would you rather have one install over the other for the same price?

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Chris K.

chiawei

I have owned 3 honda in the past.

1. 92 Accord LX- leafgreen metallic- assembled in US. No problems except the airbag did not work during a frontal collision.

2. 94 Accord EX- sage green- assembled in Japan. Had numerous problems- damaged sunroof track, blown A/C (twice), failed ABS module, glove box can't be tightly closed.

3.00 TL, had numerous minute problems. lousy gas mileage, broken center console, a lot of rattles.

I really can't say which plant has better quality, because I had problem with both US and Japanese plant.

Owned 3 toyota in the mean time as well.
93 Camry- no trouble at all even after 130K.
98 Sienna- broken passenger rear door that need to be replaced.
01 IS300- no problem.

Again, i may just be unlucky.

bombs

The days of Japanese companies taking care of employees for life ended five to ten years ago. Labor problems are just as common there as here now. Don't let the myth fool you into thinking there is a quality difference. Many auto workers in the US are proud of the jobs they do.

hunter001

The VIN# only shows the source of the engine....not the place of final assembly of the car. For example, a Honda Civic with a VIN# that begins JHxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx could have been assembled in the Marysville plant in the US, with say 65% US/Canadian components. The Engine/Transmission could have been Japanese (35% components).

Also, no Honda or Toyota plant in the US is Unionized. Numerous attempts were made for unionizing these plants but the unionizers were laughed off the plants, every single time they attempted it.

I would certainly not trust a product from a unionized plant. Incidentally, all domestic car divisions be they Cadillac, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler etc., have unionized plants and their products speak louder than their advertisements about their quality.....but do not extrapolate those standards to well run non-unionized plants like those of Honda/Toyota where the quality control standards, manufacturing procedures etc are benchmarked with the sister plants in Japan with continuous, compulsory and rigorous training provided to the associates employed here....a far cry from the Chevy plants that one normally associates with American assembled products.

just my 2c


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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by hunter001 on March 06, 2001 @ ]</font>

acuraguynj

The union labor force is a huge factor in assembly. Sometimes unions just overprotect worker's rights and therefore hinders the manufacturing and quality processes.

It does come down to the overal assembly techniques in the plants. But on the other hand, it's the mind set of the workers using those same techniques that still creates differences in quality and

Mostly everyone wants to do a good job, but the Japanese worker, I believe is still more meticulous and understands the overall concept, since he / she was born in that society.

The odds are still better that you will have a better quality Honda vehicle Made in Japan as opposed to Made in Ohio.

The same goes for Toyotas made in Japan and in the US.

Guest

I agree that non-union plants are more likely to produce better vehicles, but the biggest factor affecting quality is engineering, not the workforce.

If you know anything about TQM (and its father, Demming), you know that it is possible to engineer build quality. With TQM the skill and dedication of the workforce is of secondary importance to the quality control process. The Japanese perfected TQM in the 80's, and I believe that these techniques have made their way to Japanese-brand U.S. plants.

IMO, the training and skill of the non-union Ohio workers combined with Acura's TQM techniques result in well-built vehicles.

hunter001

Have you checked out the number of associates in the ultra-modern Honda plant in Marysville, OH ? Basically, they number just a fraction of the number of workers present in a typical Cadillac/Chevy/Ford plant.

Want to know the reason? These are ultra-modern plants (mirrors of the Japanese plants) using the exact same machines, materials and manufacturing techniques employed in the sister plants in Japan, where human involvement is minimal....hence these are good candidates to implement the company's global standards, which would be the same regardless of the physical location of the plant.....no critical component in the automobile is going to have a human going hammer-and-tongs on it, so to say. Incidentally in vehicles like the MDX, the engine and transmission (35% Japanese components) are built in Japan (even though the final assembly happens in N.America)...the 3.2TL and the 3.2CL-s (with 35% Japanese components) are also final-assembled in the Marysville plant in Ohio (the engines of the 3.2TL/CL are made in the Marysville plant and are also exported to Japan)....components like tires/bodyshell etc that comprise the 65% of the US/Canadian components are not the ones that are prone to fail over time or present any reliability issues.

What are the advantages with the final assembly happening in a US plant ? The automaker can get around the import tariff (which is, I believe 25% in case of Japan - which is HUGE!!) and pass on the savings to the consumer....while a similar product from a competitor may be inferior but may have to be priced much higher for the manufacturer to break even.

The Honda plant that builds the Acura NSX and the Honda S2000 (in Japan) are the only Honda plants that are labor-intensive - has a lot of worker involvement in the assembly. The mid-engined aircraft aluminium alloy bodied Acura NSX ($88,000)incidentally is hand-built....The Honda S2000 is also built there.

Just my 2c

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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by hunter001 on March 07, 2001 @ ]</font>