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So after a a successful B7TA rebuild in my 2000 odyssey with 255,000 miles on it...I thought hey, why not try a 5 speed.
Bought a 2001 Acura TL with 185,000 on it with a bad transmission for $500.
After reading acurazine it appears the current m7wa is a pre-2005 rebuild.
No oil-jet kit. Painted bolts on transmission. ATF fill port is 17mm. If I understand correctly, 22mm ATF fill bolt is an indicator of replacement after 2005.
On the bench teardown showed broken main shaft at 5th gear clutch pack.
m7wa 5th gear clutch pack burnt and seized in drum. Had to press out. Frictions completely gone.
Broken main shaft. m7wa
Notorious 3rd gear clutches look pretty good actually.Some signs of heat on steels.
Bell housing side of case.
Top of main case. Bearings appear intact and well seated.
5th gear clutch steels after overheating spun and damaged drum.
outside of 5th gear drum scorched. Inside drum damage is in same location.<br/>
Broken main shaft.
Broken main shaft.
5th gear friction engagement teeth ground down. Had to be pressed out of 5th drum pack.
4th gear has residue of 5th gear friction material that settled down into teeth of 4th gear.
Already have my parts for rebuild. Didn't realize the 06/07 AV6 or 05/06 oddy swap was an option or would have gone that route.
Plan to do the same thing I did with my odyssey. 1000 miles on odyssey rebuild. Buttery smooth. Running dexron lll with lubeguard for first 1000 or so, then plan on Maxlife synthetic per recommendations on odyclub.
m7wa will get:
Translab Superior VB kit
Transtar Master Kit
New TC
valve bores polished with bench buddy from superior
New internal filter
New external filter
New pressure switches
Awesome, I remember diving into mine years ago and rebuilding it (wish i had never done it lol. I should have just converted to a manual then). Keep us updated.
At 8.7 ft/lbs the end cover case bolts are "tender" and yield prior to achieving stated torque. Hardware store for five 6mx1.0 pitch bolts.
I also broke my single linear solenoid connector with air ratchet while maneuvering front lower bell housing bolt.
While waiting for my ebay replacement figured egr cleaning and valve lash was in order. Egr ports filthy and 75% blocked orifices. Channels under steel plenum gasket were even worse. New egr & throttle body gaskets will go on.
Coils and plugs looked good.
do NOT use dextron in the TL trans!!!
That is the reason acura came up with the 3x3 fluid change- in case dex3 was ever accidentally added in any quantity! See owner book for verification of this~
Many a TL (non-ziners of course) went to a trans shop and received a `machine flush` using dex3,,
Lucky if it made it down the road a few days, weeks, or really lucky got a few months before total failure
doesn't 2nd gear share the shaft of 5th gear?
the old problem that caused RECALL to install the external oil jet kit to correct heat stress breakage of the shaft, caused dropping trans from 5th gear on freeway into 2nd gear, result was a few very exciting moments!
Pics show good reason to have ones ATF tested at blackstone labs for 20 bucks
You find out if bad metal particles or excessive clutch material is in the fluid = really bad news
Blue paint on bolt heads = warranty unit from acura- often from the early clutch wearout = before 100kmiles
Not sure on fill bolt sizes = year made, but no external oil jet kit indicates POST feb 2005 build, when the jet kit went internal in the new case design. along with better flow to 3rd gear clutches
do NOT use dextron in the TL trans!!!
That is the reason acura came up with the 3x3 fluid change- in case dex3 was ever accidentally added in any quantity! See owner book for verification of this~
Many a TL (non-ziners of course) went to a trans shop and received a `machine flush` using dex3,,
Lucky if it made it down the road a few days, weeks, or really lucky got a few months before total failure
This combo is in my 2000 ody B7TA right now. 1,000 miles perfect shifts. External cooler.
I've got to read more here on acurazine though. Basically a high temp atf with friction modifiers on a new rebuild seems reasonable if "fed from rebuild". It's high mile drain/fills that can dilute suspended friction material and worsen an already damaged system it would seem.
doesn't 2nd gear share the shaft of 5th gear?
the old problem that caused RECALL to install the external oil jet kit to correct heat stress breakage of the shaft, caused dropping trans from 5th gear on freeway into 2nd gear, result was a few very exciting moments!
Pics show good reason to have ones ATF tested at blackstone labs for 20 bucks
You find out if bad metal particles or excessive clutch material is in the fluid = really bad news
Blue paint on bolt heads = warranty unit from acura- often from the early clutch wearout = before 100kmiles
Not sure on fill bolt sizes = year made, but no external oil jet kit indicates POST feb 2005 build, when the jet kit went internal in the new case design. along with better flow to 3rd gear clutches
I'm seeing 3, 4, 5 gears and 4,5 clutches on mainshaft. My failure occurred between 5th clutch and 5th gear.
My tranny bolts appear to be green. Whatever that means.
Got my used linear solenoid today. Quick bench test for resistance and 12v applied to hear it "click" and swapped out the one I broke.
Well a quick spin around the neighborhood and a run through all the gears. All systems go. Will have to drive longer to get a better feel.
Maine frozen and heaved winter roads. Couple hard shifts, but I know the passenger side engine mount is gone. Probably others.
Wanted to get it running before sinking more $$ on timing belt and mounts.
I used Dexron lll and lubegard platinum this time for first fill.
Seems like the lubegard black with HFM (high friction modifiers) shifted smoother in my 4 speed 2000 odyssey out of the gate. Food for thought.
Maxlife ATF seems to get wide support and appears to be available locally. Will try that next. Probably with lubeguard black at a rate of 1oz per quart of ATF.
At 185K and the ability to rebuild, I'm willing to take my chances on a non-honda fluid. Figure it can't hurt. Not like factory fluid kept these transmissions from high failure rates anyways.
Got my used linear solenoid today. Quick bench test for resistance and 12v applied to hear it "click" and swapped out the one I broke.
Well a quick spin around the neighborhood and a run through all the gears. All systems go. Will have to drive longer to get a better feel.
Maine frozen and heaved winter roads. Couple hard shifts, but I know the passenger side engine mount is gone. Probably others.
Wanted to get it running before sinking more $$ on timing belt and mounts.
I used Dexron lll and lubegard platinum this time for first fill.
Seems like the lubegard black with HFM (high friction modifiers) shifted smoother in my 4 speed 2000 odyssey out of the gate. Food for thought.
Maxlife ATF seems to get wide support and appears to be available locally. Will try that next. Probably with lubeguard black at a rate of 1oz per quart of ATF.
At 185K and the ability to rebuild, I'm willing to take my chances on a non-honda fluid. Figure it can't hurt. Not like factory fluid kept these transmissions from high failure rates anyways.
People on here seem to stick to OEM, but I have heard great reviews of maxlife on the Odyssey forums and it has been awesome in every car I've used it in. Use it in my dads '88 300 ZX Turbo. I get a great deal on ATF DW-1 so I just stick with that.
This failure is probably a result of low pump output, specially in those gears where the engine is not at higher revs. This should not happen with the VB upgrade that you're installing.
You probably know this but its good to do a drain and fill later on, you might see the drain plug magnet full of crud.
This failure is probably a result of low pump output, specially in those gears where the engine is not at higher revs. This should not happen with the VB upgrade that you're installing.
You probably know this but its good to do a drain and fill later on, you might see the drain plug magnet full of crud.
Thanks.
As it turns out I did a 3x3 drain and fill immediately after first test drive of 4 miles for a couple reasons.
1. Flaring 2-3, 3-4 upshift and bump on downshifts.
2. Didn't replace my cooler/warmer and was worried about contamination as I didn't clean this as well as I should have and didn't appreciate the possibility of leftover debris/metal getting through the rebuild.
My initial fluid was dexron III + Lubeguard platinum. I used MaxLife ATF full synthetic $16.97/gal. from wally world for the 3x3 drain and fill after an idle relearn procedure. Drove and ran all gears between . Switched to lubeguard black for the friction modification additive pack.
After 12 miles it seems shifts are already smoother. Hoping the PCM just needs to relearn. No codes.
Have to insure, register and get inspections sticker next week so I can get some highway speed miles on it.
Great info. Thanks for sharing. Any bad sign on the 3rd gear pack that you can see?
This is the second transmission I've ever rebuilt. By no means am I experienced in failure analysis.
The third picture in this post is the 3rd gear clutch pack. Some wear noted in center pack frictions, thinning. Overall 3rd didn't look as bad as I expected. Nothing scorched. Mild heat ringing and tempering on steels.
Someone more experienced may offer a better critical opinion.
My opinion is that gained from internet searches and youtube.
In fact, the best resource I found was Hiram Gutierrez on youtube. He's a transmission genius and has a great way of describing and demonstrating these Honda 4 and 5 speed automatic transmissions. Check out this example.
Flares all upshifts and harsh downshifts. No DTC. No line pressure.
Follow up: pain
M7WA rebuild in 2001 Acura 3.2TL
Do I teardown or am I missing something?
Parts installed:
Used mainshaft assembly
Translab Superior VB kit STL-H05-388
Transtar Master Kit with GPX frictions and steels. all rubber, paper and seals done.
New TC from partsgeek.com
All valve bores polished with bench buddy from superior until valves dropping freely
New internal filter
New external filter
New 3 & 4 pressure switches
Cooler flushed but not with high pressure.
Not Done: (no tools)
No shaft bushings changed
No vacuum testing
No Converter/Relief Valve spring change (green spring missing in VB kit. Reused old one)
Problems after rebuild
So after getting a few hundred miles on my m7wa rebuild here's the deal
A/T pump whine (louder on driver side) that becomes audible about 15-30 seconds after starting and lasts for about 1 minute. Gone on warm start.
No DTCs.
Shifts through all gears 1k-2k rpm flares on all upshifts and harsh downshifts.
No power loss. Acceleration is fine through all gears.
Sportshift or manually shifting while backing off accelerator yields quick and smooth shift
Stall tests all check out fine.
Pressure tests show problems.
Done:
Fluid: (same symptoms regardless of fluid)
Dex III for 4 miles with lubeguard platinum
3 x 3 flush maxlife atf synthetic with lubeguard black HFM (high friction modify) to 25 miles
3 x 3 flush dw1 current fluid
PCM cleared and done idle relearn a few times (pulling 7.5a fuse in passenger side dash).
Double checked all connections as possible to swap some.
CPC A/B dual linear resistance checks and clicks brisk with voltage.
ATF Temp sensor check shows 2.7 kOhms resistance which is tad high (spec 5 ohms - 2.5kohms) and getting 3.6V which is shy of "about" 5V as manual calls for.
To Do:
check mainshaft speed sensor
check countershaft speed sensor
CPC A/B dual linear removal to check feed pipes and confirm valve mechanical movement.
Then: (the plan)
Tear down and recheck pump clearances
Replace TC check/relief valve with sonnax kit as translab kit does not address bore wear.
Check foreign contaminants
Did you take all of your solenoids off and check them for clogged passages? Its also possible one of your solenoids, even though they test fine, can be bad.
If possible get a solenoid kit off Amazon, they sell them at a great price, and use them as a benchmark.
Did you take all of your solenoids off and check them for clogged passages? Its also possible one of your solenoids, even though they test fine, can be bad.
If possible get a solenoid kit off Amazon, they sell them at a great price, and use them as a benchmark.
I pulled and checked resistance and applied 12V to confirm click.
Shot cleaner through screens and blew air.
Any other tips for checking passages?
Planned to pull dual linear, but guess I should check them all again.
Good tip on the amazon kit. I assume the sins kit is what you were thinking of.
Pump whine thats not good, Did you use the torque specs ? Pressure regulator could be stuck not letting pressure build up or foreign contaminants may have entered the valve body. I became worried when you mentioned "Couple hard shifts" since I didn't experienced that with mine. Did you use an M7wa shaft ? I believe theres some differences with others years.
Yes the sins kit is what I get. Its wonderful and saves a ton of money.
When you say you had problems with your pressure testing, what exactly did you test? All gears? Or just line pressure? What happens from cold to warm? Does the pressure get lower?
When you had the trans out did you check the pump for proper specs from the Acura service manual? If you plan on tearing the trans down again. I would definitely check the pump again.
Pump whine thats not good, Did you use the torque specs ? Pressure regulator could be stuck not letting pressure build up or foreign contaminants may have entered the valve body. I became worried when you mentioned "Couple hard shifts" since I didn't experienced that with mine. Did you use an M7wa shaft ? I believe theres some differences with others years.
8.7 ft lbs (104.4 inch lbs) but may be tight at regulator valve.
Pulled CPC A/B dual linear this morning. Immediately noticed three perfectly clean screens staring at me. I had put them in upside down. New O-rings and gasket intact. Reoriented feeds with screens TOWARDS transmission. Actuated Solenoids on bench, moved freely and they shot residual fluid out. They both pass air appropriately when OFF and ON.
TEST DROVE: Same symptoms. Dang.
At any rate. It's coming out. I'm on vacation this week so got it ready to drop tonight. Will lower it tomorrow.
Two ROOKIE bone head maneuvers:
1. Shaft! I lined em up looked at the number of seals bearings and orifices but didn't put a micrometer on it. Good point. I need to examine that carefully.
2. In dropping the front cradle at motor mount my heart sunk when I saw three little bolts clearly labeled: LH, PL, 2. Damned if I wasn't trying to get a line pressure off the Lube port under the throttle body next to 1st gear port that I mistook for 2nd. My psi numbers are all whacked.
Either way it needs to come out as 120 psi is service limit and I barely had that in 3rd and 5th. I don't think I screwed those two readings up.
Valve body needs a closer look. I used straight edge and feeler at pump inspection. TransLab VB kit recommends depth gauge multiple locations in pocket and micrometer on gears then take the difference as your reading. They recommend .002" on assembly (.004" service limit) and putting a feeler gauge in between pump gear and spacer plate and torque the three 12mm bolts on main valve body. The feeler gauge should slide out easy or with a little drag AFTER torquing the 12mm's.
Did you polish the valve bores ? If so did the valves slide with no resistance ?
Also the springs that hold the valves need to be leveled and the end plugs need to rest against the clip.
Make sure to inspect the VB before taking all the valves out, you might find the reason for all this.
Did you check out Hirams 4 speed rebuild ? you can skip to the valve body part for tips.
I think it's really great that you're able to do this work yourself. But with the hours you're putting in, I'd almost say ditch this transmission in favor of an AV6 and spend the next 100k IN your car rather than under it!
I think it's really great that you're able to do this work yourself. But with the hours you're putting in, I'd almost say ditch this transmission in favor of an AV6 and spend the next 100k IN your car rather than under it!
It was snowing yesterday. I'd rather be under the car than looking at snow. Had enough of that.
Besides my sweet 1999 oldsmobile eighty-eight would be lonely. Just replaced brake lines on her last week. Blew right rear line last week coming home from work.
Did you polish the valve bores ? If so did the valves slide with no resistance ?
Also the springs that hold the valves need to be leveled and the end plugs need to rest against the clip.
Make sure to inspect the VB before taking all the valves out, you might find the reason for all this.
Did you check out Hirams 4 speed rebuild ? you can skip to the valve body part for tips.
Think I watched every Hiram video on Honda Acura builds 3 times each now.
Polished and all dropped free. Leveled springs and even scored non-oringed plugs with tubing cutter that meet with valve face for better seal (hiram tip).
Wondering if bore wear is "leaking". Checking out all the sonnax fixes for this model there is some oversized valve fixes and vacuum tests but the jig$ and reamer are not fea$able.
Got my eyes out for an AV6 but hoping for something simple.
Sooo...after a few days of other stuff, finally got a couple answers.
Pump bound and unable to turn drive gear by hand at teardown. Valve body at torque prohibited free movement. Though micrometer said parts were at spec, once assembled and torqued, could not move drive gear at all, much less get a feeler between top of drive gear and VB. Had to sand (150, 220) and polish (400, 1,000) a strong .001" off top of drive gear to get to torque and still remove .002" feeler with drag.
Also the red arrows at countershaft bearing in TC housing indicate the 12-6 position of case wear. The shaft torque was stretching the case in this direction. I'll attempt permatex primer & anaerobic bearing retaining compound which I have on hand and used on my odyssey case bearings with good result.This is a common machine and sleeve item apparently. Secondary shaft bearing was well seated.
The carrier bearing race has seen some miles.
Carrier bearing showing wear at power steering pump assist gear.
Last but not least and a huge source of pressure loss. Mainshaft feed tubes and bushings are worn.
Not springing for a $275 bushing removal tool. I tapped my old broken mainshaft bushings with 1/2" tap upper and 1/4" tap lower and used threaded rod and washer against a socket as a spacer to remove the brass bushings. This worked great and better than expected.
Valve body springs all look well seated and valves "pick" and return easily. Will break them down and double check before reassembly.
You should install the AV6 and call it a day... At the end of the day that trans your so eagerly working on will crap itself out again when you least expect it.
Don't get me wrong! I'm impressed with your work and dedication but in the end is just so no worth it.
Looks like its having the same problem as before on that gear.
Have you looked into this valve ? Lockup Shift Valve Kit - 98892-16K - Sonnax its supposed to increase lube oil
Looks like its having the same problem as before on that gear.
Have you looked into this valve ? Lockup Shift Valve Kit - 98892-16K - Sonnax its supposed to increase lube oil
Thanks I'll check that out. Looked at all the sonnax solutions.
You should install the AV6 and call it a day... At the end of the day that trans your so eagerly working on will crap itself out again when you least expect it.
Don't get me wrong! I'm impressed with your work and dedication but in the end is just so no worth it.
I hear you. I agree it's not going to last.
While it's certainly more enjoyable to drive than my Oldsmobile, I really wanted to get educated on what makes this honda unit work (or not work).
Puzzles, hobby, sport for some. This is my sick release; pleasant distraction from my day to day.
This was to be a learning experience from the beginning, so I guess I'm getting more than my $$'s worth.
For some the glass is half empty, for some half full, for others...twice the size it needs to be.
I'll be happy to drive her in time.
Still keeping an eye out for a good deal on a AV6. Should it come up I'd jump on it. Right now nothing closer than a 150 miles from me at the moment.
Plus, there is always some entertainment value for other "sick" souls!
I am in the same boat as you gazzman! I love rebuilding these and seeing how long they last. I do want to try that upgraded kit you got, as I just get a regular kit from RockAuto. It seems to work pretty damn good still and I don't really mess with the valves unless they are sticking.
Might be rebuilding another one here in a couple weeks if I get this 00 TL I am looking at on CL.
Still no joy. Flaring, harsh engagement all gears up and down.
New shaft bushings installed.
Found bearing walk in case at main shaft. Very specific. I had checked so I thought, but upon checking 2-8 0'clock "play", movement was evident. Bearing removed and replaced as well as snap ring. Permatex primer and bearing retaining compound used.
m7wa main shaft case bearing seat and old snap ring showing wear. New snap in place. Used bearing retaining compound by permatex.
Swapped the dual linear CPC A/B solenoid and Shift C off my b7ta 2000 ody. Both vehicles run the same as before.
Furthermore, after "finding" the correct pressure taps and using my harbor freight tester with drilled 8M x 1.25 bolt and welded nut adapters :
Yet it shifts through all gears and holds them after revving up at each shift. Not sure the fluid gauge adapter and 6 feet of hose are measuring correctly at 4th and 5th.
Saga continues....waiting for an AV6 to fall from the sky.
I would check all of your mainshaft passageways to make sure they are not built up or blocked. Also the o rings on the shaft and the pressure ports. Did you replace the big o rings for 4th and 5th clutch drums? Those could have failed or broken allowing pressure to escape.
I would check all of your mainshaft passageways to make sure they are not built up or blocked. Also the o rings on the shaft and the pressure ports. Did you replace the big o rings for 4th and 5th clutch drums? Those could have failed or broken allowing pressure to escape.
Yes. All new soft parts, sealing rings and seals throughout. Inner and outer rings on 4 and 5 pistons were done as well. I've moved air through passage ways and air tested mainshaft 4 & 5 together and they actuate. 4 more pronounced than 5th but I thought it was because I was testing in a vertical position and 4th being dependent had gravity affecting it in the direction of "stroke".
However since it's back in and reading other places it appears you can isolate 4 and 5 by dropping a "check ball" down the main shaft that isolates the lower 4th bushing from passing air and directing the air to the 5th only.
I don't have a vacuum other than a cheap venturi style refrigerant pump from and vacuum gage I don't know how accurate but by loosening the top capped fitting and creating a leak so that when vacuum line was completely occluded it would read 25 in Hg vac. Downside is that you have to run your compressor up and at 90 psi it drains down pretty quick but you get a minute or two to get readings. Lather rinse repeat.
Using this technique and guided by sonnax's "You need this if..." tab located at the bottom of product description pages I was able to get readings within spec for all locations offered by sonnax fixes for honda 5 speed automatics.
I used a small piece of plexiglass and drilled a hole, a countersink and thickish piece of plexiglass would work better. I used the transmission assembly lube to butter up and seal the areas to be tested.
This was what I had on hand and didn't cost anything to do.
Couple possibilities still. Looks like clutch drums can crack and leak or crossleak. Didn't look for that so possible, especially given the catastrophic failure. Even though I'm using a used clutch drum I don't know it's history and didn't inspect specifically for cracks. Nothing obvious was apparent upon assembly.
I learned about the scotch tape test. A single wrap of scotch tape around end of ATF feed tube should NOT pass into feed bushing. The tape should interfere and be pushed up torn or not pass to a seating position within the bushing. Good to know about this cheap easy check. So even though my bushings have been replaced I may pop the end cover and attempt this in vehicle to double check feed pipe wear on 4 & 5 through mainshaft. I didn't replace end cover which incorporates the 4th feed tube as unit.
I DID check the mainshaft in vertical position with the 5th feed tube seated in shaft and blew air for air check. I also vacuum checked the mainshaft 5th feed tube by removing it from end cover and inserting into mainshaft with drums off and ports taped off with electrical tape. See link to Art Landeck on youtube above.
Oh yeah saw a diagram (can't find at moment) and explanation that upon air checking drum pistons can overextend slightly and nibble on large oring as return spring compresses piston to seated position. The picture or diagram looked like a donut that had been bitten around outer circumference at 12,3,6,9 but not all the way through to center.
I found some 8M x 1.25" male to 1/8" female adapters that look like they will allow better connection to honda pressure taps than my drilled welded bolt at Pneuaire.com Cheaper than the only other option I found at amazon, the
Anyway, blower off, mower on, deck washed and a few boards repaired, pool pump cleaned and ready.
Oh yeah, the real reason to DIY. New toys. Hobart handler 140, .024 wire and Argon, C02 makes welding a dream. It looks horrible but was FUN, I kept making passes.... because I could. Probably added 10 pounds of metal to my $20 flex pipe but had a great time doing it.
Last edited by gazzman; 05-16-2015 at 10:31 AM.
Reason: fix youtube link again
Assuming your rebuilt is good and all pressure reading is to your satisfactory and still having flares and hard shifts in all gears.
I think you need to change all items #1-5 to OEM parts. In-addition, you should also change the A/B pressure solenoid's 3 small pipes, 3 O-rings again and the A/B pressure solenoid's gasket, OEM of course
02-15-2015, 09:41 PM
New O-rings and gasket intact. Reoriented feeds with screens TOWARDS transmission. Actuated Solenoids on bench, moved freely and they shot residual fluid out. They both pass air appropriately when OFF and ON. 
