chucks1967

Ok, first time nube, but not new to autos. This one however has me stumped. My car is bouncing off of 5500 rpm under wot. It will not allow for transmission to shift gears, or will it pass 5500 rpm. I have taken it into the dealer 8 times, 2 new transmissions and still the same issue. The dealer is even stumped.... I hope and am sure that some one on here is smarter than thoes guys at the shop. Please help. My thoughts are egr, or cat blockage... but still dont know.

2003 TL-s

01tl4tl

How does it rev in park? slow fast fully? that will tell if the cat is plugged
Any muffler shop can test the flow rate of the car and for restriction- with their replacement monitored by big brother, some easy test to document bad ones have been developed

You could pull the plugs and see how they read and even change them if over 60k miles on them. NGK IX Iridium work well for us

Does your VTEC kick in at 4700 rpm?

chucks1967

The car revs fine in park, and the rev limiter kicks in arround the same place, 5500. The plugs were changed at 58k and we here in AL, dont have any sniffers. Guess the exhaust shop could test flow. I just dont know, it shifts fine. Im confused, my 67 stang dont give me this grief. Any other ideas? Please...

fsttyms1

do you have any check engine light?

chucks1967

nope, and the delear said that there is not a code that comes up while driving when it happens. They said its like the car is in N not D, but the transmission realizes that the position is D. They replaced the range switch on the transmission and also at the shifter.

fsttyms1

Hummm. I would suspect 2 things. either a TDC sensor (which should be throwing some sort of CEL) or the ECU itself.

chucks1967

thats what I thought, They have replaced the PCM, and dont know about the ecu. Dont know if that would affect it unless it is a fuel delievry issue and not a speed or rev limiting issue. any other thoughts... hopefully?

fsttyms1

the PCM is the ECU. so did they replace the ecu after you first had issues or as a result of trying?


The fact that its going into a safety mode and not throwing a code is strange and leads me to believe that it would be a ECU issue. any thing else that would cause it should be throwing a code. When it gets restricted to 5500 while driving does the CEL light flash at all??

chucks1967

No, no lights at all.. just as a side note, it does it while in SS mode as well, and sometimes/some days, it will not do it at all..... but now sense the second transmission it does it all the time every time. The scary part is if you need to pass some one, and lets say your doing 45, when it down shifts into a lower gear, and the rpm spikes above 5500 it will not shift back into a higher gear untill the rpm gets below that rpm range. Thus putting me in an o-my-goodness head on is about to happen mode. ECU might be what they are going to replace next, but the Acura teks, are telling the dealer that it has nothing to do with how the car shifts.... seems like even if it doest have anything to do with the shift points it would have something to do with the fuel cut off and the point where the rpm limiter says stop. Im looking for any thing to sugest to the dealers shop.... When I test drove it with the shop forman, and he experienced the same thing, he was speachless.... except for the part where he said we have tried everything, and have do idea what to try next. My TL is a freakin awesome car, I love it, but something has to give...

fsttyms1

well i dont know where they think that the ecu doesnt control the shifts. The ECU does control the shifting. Its part of the updated trans. they revised the shiftpoints in the ecu and thats part that gets replaced with the trans. From your description i dont think its trans related, it sounds like its in a safety mode and i would assume its something the ecu doesnt like One would think that since there is no code being thrown the dealer would have tried a known good ecu to see. It honestly could be a number of things but with no code its strange.

chucks1967

right..... They did change the ecu then, rather they called it the PCM... gone through 2 or so says the shop. Think they''ll buy the car back from me... or better yet give me a new tl-s?

fsttyms1

doubtfull. then they need to find and spend more time tracing the issue. when did this problem occur exactly? before the trans problem?

chucks1967

ok so the story goes, orrigonal transmission worked good for about 2000 miles after I bought it, the 5500 rpm issue was not there that I knew of at that time. They changed the transmission and pcm/ecu and I took it for a spin after the first 500 miles it started the 5500 rpm issue. That has been the issue ever sense. To remidy the problem they have replaced the pcm again, adjusted the shifter, replaced the range selector switch, then decided to do another transmission and another pcm. still doing it. It has been to the shop 10 times. Good thing I bought the extended bumper to bumper cause they had to replace the motor mount as well as the trans mounts.

fsttyms1

Thats strange. well if they have done that i dont see why the other causes for that arent triggering a CEL. about all i could add now is to check the grounds out and start testing the TDC and CKP sensors, and the wiring between the ECU and the sensors (which one would believe the dealer did

chucks1967

yes, the dealer told me that they went through all of the connectors... not just the ones on the transmission, but all connectors that have any thing to do with the transmission. They believed they had it solved when they ound a bent pin on the thermostat housing, why that would affect it i could only wonder, but that still didn't fix the problem. My new question is if they cant fix the car, and how many tries does it take to figure out that they cant fix the car, what happens next. Does that void my contract with them, are they liable for a replacement, or a refund. Im gettin desprate as I have to drive 30 miles one way to work every day, and dont have the time to keep on taking my car in to the shop. I dont want a new one or any thing I just want a car that will get me to work, and one that is similar to mine.

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

maybe try a different dealer if there is one rather close. Sometimes all it needs is a fresh set of eyes.

01tl4tl

They should have you in a loaner while the Senior Tech and District Warranty guy work the problem

I agree with fsttyms1- it sounds stupid enough to be a ground issue- like internal corrosion of the neg battery cable or maybe the pos cable- you probably have replaced battery by now based on age- do the cables as a safety.

Lemom Law applies mainly to new cars- check the internet for specs, and then its more than 3 attempts and over 30 biz days in the shop with no luck- a brand new car would be a lemon
You dont have a new car- you have a used car with a problem that Acura is dilgently trying to solve for you- thats a big differance

That sensor on the thermostat could be telling the computer the car is cold and wont allow full rpm- they should look further in to that system

There is a system that holds the trans in 1st 2nd longer when engine cold to warm it up faster- there could be something wrong in the mapping

When you replace the cables, the ECU will auto-reset and you can see what happens this weekend

fsttyms1

Im just baffled that its throwing the car into a limp mode with no CEL. One other thing could be a blocked or plugged exhaust

chucks1967

First off, im not asking for a new car. Secondly diligence is working on an issue until resolved. If they were that diligent then I would not have the car back in my hands until the issue is resolved, and if it were just once or twice I could understand, but today is the 10th time. I am not raging on the competency of the mechanics, or Acura it self. They are all good guys scratching there heads as much as I am. I am just searching for some help in the issue I am having. 01tl4tl, are you an Acura mechanic? Sales person? My main worry is that this issue is going to be proclaimed fixed my wife is going to jump in the car take off to the store, and need to get out of the way of a stupid driver, and the car will not respond the way it is intended to. I can replace the car; the cargo is much more precious.

chucks1967

I mentioned to the shop Forman about the exhaust being a possibility, he said it would through a light and that they thought of that to. I am about to bring up the EGR. That being plugged may be causing issue. 01tl4tl has a good Idea about the thermo sensor being the problem, however the sensor sends a good signal to the gauge. any other ideas? Please let’s talk this thing out until we have gone over every thing that could be a possibility.

01tl4tl

I am not in the employee of Acura or any dealer or shop-
I have been working on cars for decades.
From RX7 with similar prob- the test- does it rev beyond 5500 in nuetral when at operating temp?
Yes- cat ok
NO- cat possibly plugged- it happens- crap in gas wrecks them and even oil makers recently had to change formulas because metals in them are plugging cats!!

A muffler shop will drill a small hole into the cat and do a pressure test measurement-
they usually do this for free- including welding the hole shut when done.
Beyond that, on an 02 TL with 150k miles I recently looked at- banged the rear muffler from undeneath and there were rattles- that usually means broken baffles which could be blowing into a blockage position at hi revs- the muffler shop will test that for you too

Its beyond Acura and their hi level tech thinking of parts replacement and needs a down home look at the basics. So often its the simple things

Please answer: Battery OE? replaced? has it been tested- any major parts store kragen autozone checkers whoever- will come out in the parking lot and hook a tester to your car
It will also test the cables and alternator condition
Then you have a known solid base

If i sounded snippy I did not mean it that way- its friday- and many years in the industry where people want wild things- ...

01tl4tl

Limp mode in the computer will only give you 2500 rpm- it does that if it thinks there was an over rev happened- as example
Made to get you off the freeway to safe place and call for tow- - not meant for extended driving though it will usually get you to the dealer

5500 limit I am thinking something in the exhaust system itself
egr would make the car run really bad all the time

01tl4tl

Just thinking out loud here:
the bad sensor prong- just because the guage prong is working doesnt mean the other signals are- I am guessing ,multi pin setup- but something there would be a good place to look again- how did it get bent- when trans removed?

fsttyms1

Technically any reason electrically should cause the light to come on. There was a member who had a clogged cat/exhaust causing similar symptoms.

01tl4tl

There was a time in the 80s when RX7s were having cat plug just before the 50k warranty deadline- it would compare to TLs with trans problems in how bad it was

One a day or more for a while- must have been a certain batch and then didnt see the prob again- weird

chucks1967

I replaced the battery last month, all of the connectors were clean with no corrosion, But the problem came while the old battery was still in the car, after I changed the battery the problem was still there. The car is mint, I keep under the hood clean, so if there was a bad wire that was visible I would be able to see it. How ever, I have not checked the cat. I dont know for sure on these cars, but if the cat would go on the domestic, the O2 would send a code to the ecu and the ces light would come on. Good point on the sensor 01tl4tl, but they said that they fixed that by replaceing the pigtail. fsttyms1 I would believe that the light would come on as well no matter what the electrical fault or if there was a plug in the exhaust flow. so its back to the ecu. Is there a prom in the ecu, or is it an all in one unit. would they have replaced the controller with out replacing the prom?

01tl4tl

get the basic test I mentioned done- then we can go from a solid base
Just because your battery is new does not mean its perfect
And cables hide their badness from public view
You keep your engine spotless- does that mean spray cleaner or water could have gotten somewhere bad?

What spark plug brand and current mileage?

PunkAssGG

Try pulling out the Backup Fuse on your passengers side for 10 seconds and put it back in. The car may have just run into a limp mode. It's a 10 Amp fuse.

Inaccurate

I assume that you and the techs are watching the in-dash tachometer to determine that the engine hits only 5500. There is a chance that the tach is wrong/broken. Thoughts ???

fsttyms1

One would assume that but thats not always the way it works. There could be a plug in the cat after the sensor or in the exhaust stream. Ive seen it happen with no lights. There is no prom to replace, its all one unit. Ive replaced every wire under the hood and dash and it would be nearly impossible to see every one and their condition. As for grounds, there are more than just the one at the battery. just about every harness has or leads to one.




Another very good question.

chucks1967

Ok, dont know about the tac being dead on, but lets say it was off by 2700 rpm or so, even if it was bouncing off of red line wouldn't it still shift? as far as the other stuff goes, Ive put it back into the dealers hands. There is not another acura dealer for arround 100 miles or so from where I am, so Im kinda stuck on that. the current mileage on the car is 83000 and has the orrigonal plugs I am assuming. The dealer has been the one to service the car from new. so I followd the trend when I bought it at 59k miles. I keep the engine wiped down, no water. It doest leak fluids so its easy to keep dusted. corsion under the insulation is a strong posiability. I didnt see any arround the edge of the insulation but dont know. Tell me more about this limp mode.

01tl4tl

limp mode is a safeguard that limits the revs to 2500, thats it,, not 4700 not 5200-
Vtec comes on at 4700 to redline- you know it when it kicks in

then car wont shift if bouncing off redline- try reducing rpm- will it SS or auto shift then?

Is it staying in 2nd gear?

As for your well founded concern of wife needing power on demand- does she really ever need vtec when there are options like slowing down and letting the truck go by on the freeway rather than trying to beat it from the onramp

A fresh set of NGK IX Iridiums will make any TL with over 60k miles run better- spend 35$ and DIY this weekend
The book doesnt call for them till 105- under normal service- but most humans cars need the severe service schedule to keep maitenamce up perfect
At this point I would run Seafoam in the intake and see if that helps
And my main suggestion- get it to a muffler shop- no sniffer required for the test you need

Your battery is new but the cables are old---

fsttyms1

Thats not completely true. While doing my conversion i had one that would shut it down at about 5k as well.

his problem isnt plugs or routine maintenance. his car is unable to rev all the way nor will it shift. And i dont really know why. Any thing that should cause that to happen should be throwing a code.

01tl4tl

I still say bang the rear mufflers with your hand, and have the cat flow tested at muffler shop
And there is a 2nd prob with a temp reading keeping it out of vtec- maybe???
Does the vtec kick in at all chuck??
And hows your gas mileage?
If its in closed loop cold thinking mode- you are running rich

Ok- so I dont know everything about the TL computer settings- only what I have verified with 2 known sources is what I state, I bow to the higher smartness of fsttyms1 on many matters of acura

Plugs- I was thinking melted electrode or something- this poster runs it to redline in several gears from the sounds of things- thats a bit rough compared to regular service schedule

Just trying to look for anything they didnt do yet- and recheck certain items- I never trust NEW parts to actually work until verified- they are just bits assembled by a low bidder in a far away place, transported in a rusty boat across the salt water oceans, to become a part for your car...oh yeah I trust that for sure~

fsttyms1

I agree that the exhaust should be tested.

I would think that if it were the plugs that it should be showing some sort of rough idle or misfire if its not allowing it to rev higher.

its got me stumped. every thing that it should be should be causing some sort of code.

chucks1967

The gas MPG highway is 28-29 really dont know what city is. It idles smooth, no hesitation on take off, no rough shifts, no sec light ever, vsa only comes on when I slip on wet pavement or gravel. I do need to change plugs and wires as I have not done that yet, but the car is still in the shop. Ill check the exhaust when I get it back. I talked to the shop today, They told me they are going to take a 30 second snap shot of the ecu while it is bouncing at 5500 rpm, and send it to the acura engineers to see if they can look at the code and figure out anything. It has gone beyond the dealer shop, past the tek line they have as a backup and gone to the manufactures engineers. if they cant figure it out either then I am left with what? any one know what the warrantee states about a vehical that cannot be fixed?

chucks1967

01tl4tl have you ever found yourself in a situation where your driving down the road, pulled up to stop sign, and looked in the rearview to see a car flying up, and the only options are stay there and take lincon town car up the pooper, or floor it and try to get out of the way? lets say your taking the second option, and you floor it, it sores through the rpm band and your thinking your getting away from deamon town car, and ;bounce, bounce, bounce 5500 rpm wont shift, wont go any faster. and crash. worst case yes, but murphys law always sucks.

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm seems they are trying to fix it atleast, good thing for warranty!! By now I would have thunk that they would have sent out a few regional tech people and possibly even the national person. I've read tech line transcripts before and they are very thorough. I would be checking the engine speed sensor and the vehicle speed sensor, also independently verify if the tach is working properly. They should probably be checking the signal integrity at each sensor and at the ecu to verify to connections are good. I Can't believe it's not throwing a CEL, but this seems to happen more frequently then not.

I had a problem in my 05 that the battery was disconnected and the idle was rough as shit, took it to the dealer and they could not diagnose, nor could tech line. Both agreed it was there but said all readings are normal and no CEL. I went to another dealer they scanned it noticed that the battery had been disconnected and the crankshaft sensor was off, it needs to go through a re-learn sequence after power loss, so far the engine has been running good. Again that 100mile drive might be worth it, or a trip to a honda specialist, only part that sucks there is you'll be footing the bill.

When you say its bouncing off 5500 rpm what gear is that in? does this only happen in one particular gear or is it if you floor it in any gear it bounces and hangs in gear?

01tl4tl

So just to make sure you are describing the actual problem in your example- when you go from a stop to full throttle- in either ss or D5 mode- it gets to 5500 and rev limits- cuts out?

If in ss mode it should auto shift 1-2 and that good for above 60mph

In the example you give (based on what they taught in racers school) your best option is to gas it and go to the side- grab the next lane or take the corner if first at the light
I always leave room ahead when stopped, in case someone needs that extra few feet to stop, I can pull forward quickly.
We are trying to help you- really- this is just so wierd

chucks1967

01tl4tl, its cool, that was just a funny I wrote up. I understand fully. and oppreciate all of your help with this as I do every ones. It dosent matter which driving mode you are in, ss or d5, nor does it matter what gear you are in, or if it down shifts. when you hit 5500 rpm, it cuts out and will not shift to next gear. One thing I have not tried is running it up to that rpm and trying to shift out to second with ss mode, I just thougt of that. but in regular driveing condidtions if it hits that rpm it cuts out like if you were sitting in the drive way and held the throttle to the floor and hitting rev limiter. here is the driving situation. Im taking off from a dead stop. Floor the car, it gets to 5500 rpm and bounces off rev limiter. second situation. Im driving allong at 60 I go to pass a car, the car down shifts in to a lower gear second or third, and when it gets to that rpm the same thing happens it bounces off of that rev limiter and will not shift gears till i let off the gas and it comes down to arround 5000 rpm then I can ease back into the gas and it changes gears. the first time it happend I was passing a car on a 2 lane and in the on coming lane a car pops up over a hill in the distance, so I gas it a little more it craps out at 5500 rpm which was arround 60 mph. I had to brake and pull back behind the car I was trying to pass just in time to get out of the way of the on coming car.