BillThyCat

I've owned my car for 8 whole days..... no crazy driving, no hard accelerations, minimal SS, tonight coming home accelerating to 50mph it did the sudden RPM jump and then caught up and shifted hard. I got to the next light, made sure I accelerated smoothly and did not gun it, it did it again......

I have a 30 day 1k mile warranty 50%/50%, can anyone give me advice of what I can have as leverage if he says that slipping isn't covered. The warranty is supposed to cover drive-train.

My other issue is that I had planned to go on a 800 mile round trip this weekend, so have to get it to him before I go or I'll blow the 1k mile warranty.

Does this usually mean bad things, or since it just started is there hope that it might be cheap and simple fix. Should I demand a full rebuild? or just settle for the clutchpack or whatever is causing the slip? If a rebuild is roughly $2k, I don't mind spending 50% of that if it will get me a couple years out of it.

It was really hot out today, 95+ degrees, the temp gauge was normal. Not sure if the heat had something to do with it or not.

Thanks,

BTC

thewrangler99

sorry to say but your transmission is dead.

BillThyCat

Can you be more elaborate, I would like to sound somewhat like I know what I am talking about to the seller so that he doesn't try to snow me.

I'm a computer engineer by trade, not much knowledge with mechanics, tho I am learning.

I forgot to put in some more specifics.

2000 TL-P, 168,000 miles, 3rd owner, 1st owner had the recalls fixed before selling it to the 2nd owner, who apparently was a moron because she had 2 front end accidents in 2 years.... Tho they did a pretty good job repairing it, because other than some dings on the bumper, the front looks perfect.

5spd AT.

Thanks,

BTC

TequiLa

iTrader: (3)

you'll find a lot of information regarding the transmission slipping on this forum because it's the biggest common problem. you might want to read the threads regarding this issue and make the decision.

01tl4tl

the clutch packs are a series of stacked friction disc with steel plate disc between each one.
think of a stack of CDs
those have to grip to engage the gear, so the friction plates have a material ~glued~ on that provides that grip--which wears out too soon

the TL is notorius for this -
the recall had nothing to do with it, its a result of low oil flow to 2nd gear clutches,
and the owner manual didnt call for atf changes until way past when they were really needed
the court case extended the warranty on some of the cars, but not all gen2

its approx $2500 to rebuild yours at local shop - retail price
A car dealer would get a better price, but may try to stick you with more than your actual 50% ~

STOP DRIVING it right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maybe have it towed to the seller and say- the trans is shot, we can go on acurazine to a bunch of threads regarding this failure
A trans shop will run the codes and test drive, feel slip - see rpm jump..and thats not even driving it hard!!

there is no way to replace just the clutches, you take the trans apart and replace every gearsets clutch stack/packs, replace seals, clean or replace shift selenoids and new external oil filter for trans...use Kevlar clutches = way better
replace torque convertor which is now filled with free floating clutch particulate matter!

If you can return this car and get refund DO SO,,who knows what else will go out--it was sold by someone who knew the trans was bad,,traded in - maybe went thru an auction house? whats the history of the car?

read the fine print on contract about who does the repairs,,their shop or dealer or what?
dealer installs a complete unit made of new and old parts in a `new` case
swap in and out in half a day,,retail 4000,,,deal 2500-3000 has 3 year warranty with it

01tl4tl

open the hood and look at trans- see any blue paint on bolt heads for things attached to trans, or the main bolts going thru the trans?
Thats a warranty replaced unit

otherwise this car got 160+ on the original-- thats near hall of fame territory!

BillThyCat

His warranty states 50% of retail cost, so I figured he would stick me with more than 50%, but at least I'm hopefully not paying 100% of the cost.

I love the car, but I have been reading the threads here and can't decide now whether I want to just fix and go on, or if I should try just to return it.

By the way, he isn't an actual brand dealer, just some guy who sells imports off a gravel lot. He doesn't do the service himself, I asked if he did service when I bought it, he said he had a mechanic that does all of his services. And to honor the warranty I have to go to that mechanic.

I'll call them today and see what my options are, I appreciate all the info guys.

Thanks,

BTC

01tl4tl

there is a very slight chance his guy would even know how to rebuild a TL trans and do it right the first attempt,,meaning trans gets installed and doesnt work, back out and totally taken apart again,,,maybe a few times..This happens at many shops

Read the fine print,,at least a real trans shop should do the work

take it to a trans shop for their opinion , then ask the guy where to drop it off for his guy to inspect
Hopefully its a smart tech who will tell the seller- `this is not something I can do`- take it to...xyz shop

01tl4tl

retail according to who? got a dealer quote??
then he has a guy do it in the driveway for half that,, and charges you the total actual cost!!

ck the brake fluid and ps fluid condition- that will tell a lot about the car
Do you know if the timing belt and water pump were replaced somewhere around 105miles..you are at what now- 168?
if never done--which is very possible- you are on borrowed time for the belt to break and cause $2500 damage to the engine

BillThyCat

The timing belt was on my list of things to get checked, the original owner had it maintained at the dealer til 118,000 miles, so there is a chance the dealer did the original change, but I do know without looking I am on borrowed time.

What are the current costs at dealers and at transmissions shop to have it done right? The biggest issue is he closest Honda/Acura dealer is over 100 miles away, so would have to have a big tow to get it there.

I will see what the seller says and decide then or at least come back and share with my fellow forum members and make a smart decision from there.

BTC

fsttyms1

I would see about possibly returning it if he doesn't agree to cover it 100%

pickler

i always use SS and avoid 3rd gear since 2004. its been 7 years and i have never replaced the tranny. i had some slippage when it gets really hot after spirited driving but it goes away. abrupt and rough shifting are present but never a tranny failure. oh i should mention, for some reason my car engine brakes in 3rd gear. i'm not sure why. in D5 car dropps to 3rd gear at 40km/h and if you take foot of gas, car will slow down. pain in the ass in traffic. so i use ss and keep it in 4th.

BillThyCat

This was probably the cheapest car on his lot, he normally stocks 2006+ imports, I may try seeing if he will offer trade in value for what I paid towards something else. I wasn't keen on spending that much for a car originally, but if I'm going to get stuck paying another $2k+ for a transmission, maybe it's worth upgrading to a newer vehicle instead.

I really do love this car tho.....

How do you avoid 3rd? Just double tap from 2nd to 4th?

BTC

01tl4tl

acura ~4000$ for exchange trans installed

acura unit by itself, for his guy to install ( may drop the 3/36 warranty from acura if they dont install) $1800 on `the deal` price! more retail

local trans shop $2000-2500

01tl4tl

if you look the car over or get it checked at a shop to document all the things wrong PLUS the immediate trans failure- you may be able to go back claiming LEMON

trans was failing as it sat on the lot!!

see your state used car laws

or the private tech inspects and says you found a great car, signs of bolts removed for the 105, get trans fixed and enjoy it for several years

Just because it was dealer maintained-- doesnt mean everything it really needs was done

Edward'TLS

No surprise it's the cheapest. I bet the seller was already well aware of the failing tranny on the TL. The car should already have all the telltale signs of a failing tranny. 8 days of easy drivings are simply too short to kill a good TL tranny.

pickler

yep double tap. it will still jump to 3rd gear though, but very briefly. avoid high rpm gear changes from 2 to 3. double tap-pause-tap switch from 2 to 5th. considering ur over 60 km/h or i think 40mph.

BillThyCat

Thanks for all the info guys, going to try to get over to see the dealer today and see what options he is willing to go for. I would agree he probably knew there was something with the transmission, but being able to prove it is going to be tough.

Thanks,

BTC

01tl4tl

seller will claim he never drove it himself,,
buyer beware and test drive- have a mechanic look at any used vehicle etc

BillThyCat

My mechanic did look at it, but at the time it was running perfect..... Hidden transmission problems aren't always easily found. He's not a "honda" guy, more of an overall mechanic, he didn't know of the known issues on this car. I mistakenly assumed that since it had the recall work done that the problem was gone as well, I should have joined this forum before buying it and reading all the issues. I just did a quick google search and didn't realize the extent of the failures before I bought it.

Going to the mechanic tomorrow since he's only open during the week the same hours I work. He'll be there half the day tomorrow.

Really hope he ends up being a decent guy, but we'll see.

BTC

01tl4tl

point them to acurazine

the trans recall simply installed a jet kit into the regular filler hole,
to spray atf directly on 2nd gear set.
There was an overheat prob which caused the shaft to snap in half while at speed and the car comes to a sudden stop,,or sudden downshift at 70mph into 2nd and stays there
The recall part DID fix that one issue, but not the other prob

01tl4tl

tell the mechanic its has a TipTronic transmission and ask if he has experience with them

Even Honda guys dont know the TL trans symptoms, or how to push the car on a test drive.
Their trans are way different that ours,,their engine temps even vary while driving!
The TL temp is rock steady 1-2 lines below half- it it ever varies besides the quick up from cold to operating temp- you have a problem!!
honda tech would not even know that,,as proven on here~

BillThyCat

I just checked the ATF fluid, it's not red, looks the same color as the oil (I am assuming the yellow dip stick is ATF, and the orange stick is oil), the colors of the fluids are the same.

It's also just barely above the twist in the dip stick, so I am assuming it's low. Any idea if thats a full quart, partial quart, etc. And is it possible the low fluid is causing the slipping and that topping it off could correct it?

I checked both of our parts store in town, neither carry the Honda brand fluid. One does carry Royal Purple which says it's equivalent to the ZF1 fluid. Would it be worth the $45 to do a drain and fill with RP?

Thanks,

BTC

BillThyCat

In my earlier post, I meant I was going to the dealer, not mechanic.

BTC

01tl4tl

the correct way to ck fluid level is a warm up drive from cold,
hop on freeway for 15 minutes easy cruise, get off and safely park.
Stop and put in park - engine OFF- remove and wipe stick- insert fully- make sure its really seated, remove and read
level should be BETWEEN THE DOTS, the upper dot being a MAX fill limit- somewhere in the middle being fine and lowest dot,,needs a few ounces
Have to ck it warm as temp changes the indicated level

ATF stick is yellow and on driver side of engine- over the trans: reddish fluid

NO on adding RP to the mix right now,,use HONDA DW-1 from dealer or ck import-performance auto parts stores..ck level warm before anything else

Dont do a fluid change- you needs it `as is` for the diagnostics

Unless a visable leak- there is no reason for the trans fluid to be low-
except if someone did change it and failed to add correct amount- many think its 3 qts but up to 3.4 may drain out!
Does it look new or smell like burnt sugar or what?
maybe it was changed with dex3!!!!

Engine oil is orange handle and on passenger side/ very front of engine

sicc_soul916

Yeah, I'd say (guess) the majority of tranny failures had nothing to do with the oil jet that was installed for the recall. I say this because I just got a new tranny installed directly from Acura and the new tranny doesnt have the oil jet.

01tl4tl

you described symptoms of worn clutch plates,,but start with cking level

Edward'TLS

When the shitty tranny on my 2G TL-S failed, I "sort of" lost the 3rd gear.

This is the interesting part of the "sort of". I only lost the 3rd gear after the car had been driven (warmed up) for 10-15 mins. When the car was cold, there was no slipping whatsoever with the 3rd gear, and so there was no way of telling that the tranny was already bad by driving the cold car.

So if a mechanic, who is unfamiliar with the 2G tranny problems, only drives the car around for a few blocks, the failed tranny symptoms may not have easily been detected.

01tl4tl

part of the redesign of the trans case in 2005 was moving the recall installed external oil jet kit- Internal !!
Its still there doing its job, safely protected inside the case,
which leaves the regular filler hole avail on top of trans

the reason its a problem when warm is: The failing/failed clutches are shedding micro particulate matter into the atf, which falls to the bottem of the torque convertor when parked.
As you drive that crud is flung into the TC outlet port filter screens- clogging them so line pressure is reduced or stopped,, and no shifting will occur
Thats why it acts up when warm!

You can pull over for 15-30 minutes to let it settle back down so you can drive off the freeway to a safe parking place and wait for the tow- if it really acts up and gets stuck in 2nd or quits shifting

BillThyCat

It didn't smell burnt, didn't really have much smell, but my nose could be broken.

My guess is that it's the wrong fluid, it was very clearish like fresh oil. But then again I could only see a tiny bit, when I wiped it on the paper towel, that's where I could see the brownish color.

The closest Honda/Acura dealer is in Des Moines, 100 miles away, there is a Toyota dealer in my town, would they carry compatible fluid?

If not, I could make a trip in my gas guzzling van to DM.

One other quick thing, where is the best place to look for the blue bolts. When I was checking the fluids I looked all around the bottom of the engine at where I think the transmission bolts on, I didn't see any bolts that were blue. But forgive me, I am not a mechanic, so I wasn't exactly sure where the engine stopped and the transmission started. I looked very close to where the dipstick was and didn't see anything there. Is there another preferred place to look?

Thanks again, your info is very much appreciated.

BTC

01tl4tl

look at trans from above, the small items attached to top of trans will have blue paint on the bolt heads,,also on the main bolts going thru the trans
If they are present you cant miss them from above

why do you want to buy fluid when you have not ckd the level when warm as directed?
cold reading means nothing to us (ok we dont have a spec)
acura wants it ckd warm--so we do

NO!! toyota wont have HONDA atf,,,and you cant buy whatever off the shelf
You can ORDER atf online and save the drive cost

At this point we dont know if you have old fluid, or possibly someone changed fluid with wrong stuff
Few cars for sale would get the atf changed,,,
engine oil yes, as that dipstik is easy to reach and read,,,buyers think fresh oil means well cared for car

brownish on the stick is bad news,,olllllllllllldddddd fluid

sicc_soul916

My 2 cents: My fluid didnt smell burnt and it was fairly clean. Had a couple rough shifts one month, next month it was done.

01tl4tl

thats right- fluid smell is just part of the diagnostic process

BillThyCat

Well, it's 78 degrees out this morning, driving to the dealer it didn't slip. The engine was up to temperature when I got there, the dealer jumps in (Mind you, he's completely going ballistic claiming I'm trying to screw him over, etc), he gets out on the highway and starts driving like a maniac, I only felt one minor slip, so I'm starting to feel kinda stupid, he drives down to his mechanic buddy, (another dealer in town), and he jumps in and we drive down the road and it slipped 2x minor 500rpm jump, and then he turned around and it almost red line slipped. We go back to his shop and he tells the dealer that yeah, it's slipping. The dealer tries to convince me that all Honda Accord's do this.... I said, ok, I'll drive you back to your shop, I proceed to drive like a normal human being and sure enough, 2x it slips for 4+ seconds before finding 3rd gear. Now he starts to feel stupid, but then starts throwing out all these thousands of dollars that we are both going to be out to fix it, etc, etc.

He said he will get an estimate for a "used" junkyard transmission and install and that's all he's willing to do.

As to the warm check, that's what I had done, I drove it around for 20 minutes before I checked the fluids yesterday. Not freeway speeds because there are no freeways here, but I had it up to 55 for part of the warming up process.

I told the dealer about the color of the fluid and he claimed brown fluid was normal for any ATF with 10,000 miles on it.

He started claiming $2500-3000 for the above mentioned work. Which definitely sounds like he is trying to screw me..... A reman transmission is only around $2500, correct? Whats the average price for a junkyard trans?

BTC

BillThyCat

The dealer just called, being civil for once, and said he got a hold of the transmission guy (a different guy), and the trans guy said I should go buy some SeaFoam transmission and put that in and run it over the weekend. Said it may fix it.

My concern is will he then deny telling me to do this later and use that as a reason not to cover the warranty? Has anyone used this with any success?

If we end up replacing the transmission anyways (if he doesn't screw me), is there any harm in putting it in? Will it damage any other part of the car? I know you guys are for using it in the gas and for cleaning the vacuum lines by the TB, but didn't see much on transmission use.

And I am assuming he means to use the bottle that's labeled for transmissions. Since they have multiple products.

How many miles should I try to put on it after putting it in? He wants to see if it improves anything by Tuesday. Highway miles, city miles, combination? I'm also assuming since I'm only a little low on fluid that this might put it above the max amount of fluid, do I have to drain out a few ounces to not get it over the top mark?

Will wait for your response before I do anything.

Thanks again,

BTC

01tl4tl

STOP DRIVING IT
do not add trans tune! A shop that hasnt seen and driven the car said to do it???
doing so requires - per its instructions- 30 minutes drive and a full fluid changeout `acura flush` 3x3!! not just 3 qts,,
Is he paying for 12 qts of 10 buck per qt HONDA atf?
So thats out of the question

If he wants to try it at his risk...after taking possesion of the car with a written agreement that a named local shop does a full rebuild, not a cheapskate one,,,when seafoam doesnt cure it,,
ok!! let him try- we have been wanting someone to!

Trans tune- according to seafoam website- will clean the seleoids and switches, a problem we do have, and should remove mild shudder shift.
It may be the solution to general shifting issues, but not critical friction part wearout ,,lets get real with the basic physics ~eh

You are being BSd in a major way
All the denials-then experienced it..'
Drop it off at the trans shop is the reality of this situation
they tear it down and inspect all the parts, buy the standard acura rebuild kit,
(pay them the extra for kevlar clutches), and its like new when they are done-
approx $1800-2000 wholesale price to the car dealer (shops give each other a break and hope for future business) so you're out a grand,,not bad considering

As to fluid level, you still dont know! driving in town overheats the fluid for testing purposes- changing indicated level
need a solid from cold 15 miles/minutes D5 at 55-65 mph,,`easy cruise`

TL fluid from Honda stays nice and red for thousands and thousands of miles,
When it gets dirty towards brown, you better change it quick- its lost lubricating abilty but has picked up crud in the system,,wanna guess what that crud is --go back to the post about clogging torque convertor,,
Oh Man= that would have been the best! have the car flat out refuse to shift while seller was driving as TC clogged~

slipping is caused by worn clutch plates plain and simple

as said before- direct him to azine and this thread, and the thread titled Main Tranny Thread, its dozens of pages long and goes from 2004 up to todays members needing help

Junkyard trans- thats not what your contract says right?
repaired not replaced with garbage,,you know he is not looking for the best one- just the cheapest

Exception: it just came out of the junkyard owners personal car
otherwise you have no way of knowing trans condition!,may already be slipping and why the car crashed! or if car was hit in front which can jam internals of trans
We would suggest a normal rebuild on one of those, or expect it to last a few months and quit--sitting without running, exposed to the elements--you do the math

Another option would be the Oddessy trans will fit a TL , newer so better chance of good low mileage used unit

As a car seller- who buys used cars at auction (most likely) he takes a risk vs profit on every deal - he clearly doesnt know the TL or he wouldnt buy them!!! trans probs may occur!!

Getting you to pay half for repairs is something I've never heard of!!
car comes with no warranty or 30 or 90 day warranty on certain items like engine trans axles= powertrain,,maybe a $100 deduct,, but not split cost

Dont be afraid to contact the sate board for car sellers and ask questions about that!
gravel lot or paved- they have to be registered with the state license organization
Be an informed consumer!! knowing the law is a major advantage in dealing with people

As IF he didnt make over a grand clear on your sale...`oh we are both going to lose money`,,toooooo funnnnnny
OK so give me back 100% of my money, and you can donate this car to the blind/deaf society for a tax write-off

BillThyCat

Not sure if this matters, but he's just a used car lot, far from being a Honda/Acura dealer. One of the reasons I trusted him was for the 30 day 50/50 warranty. Almost no user car dealer in my town offers any kind of warranty. I will contact the state board and see if I have any laws on my side for what kind of repair it has to be. I don't necessarily expect a new transmission, that isn't something I should have expected when buying the car, so why should I expect one on a repair. But his thought on just grabbing a junk yard one without a rebuild does worry me. I plan to contact the transmission shop on Tuesday and ask them what they plan to do, and if necessary I'll put up some extra money to get it done right.

I thought the seafoam idea was bad, one of your first posts said to stop driving it, I only drove it today because he insisted I bring it to him to evaluate.

I'll let it sit til Tuesday, should I have it towed to the shop? or one more 10 mile drive be ok?

Thanks,

BTC

01tl4tl

only concern is the mileage cap,,beyond that, worst case is you get stuck on the side of the road,,

trans shop does rebuild as I stated above- there is a kit with parts normally replaced.
you can pay extra for kevlar clutches

used car dealer is a licensed business with the state- who doesnt care where they do business!
that guy/his company goes to the car auctions and buy POS to resell at a high profit, thats why he never drove it to know the problem
they paid 2500-3g for your car and sold it to you for ?? 5500?

there are no `brand new` trans available- at all-
acura sells a rebuilt unit and takes back your old one,, to add to the parts bins for more rebuilds

Local shop takes yours apart and installs what it needs

with your warranty thats what I would expect and nothing less!!

Want to be a real pest about it- acura unit is all you will settle for.
eff what the guy says` he is willing to do and thats all`~
car salesmen are like addicts and lawyers!!
how do you know they are telling a lie? the lips are moving~

CONTRACT is all that matters in a court of law
what does the contract specify?

BillThyCat

I only paid $3900 for it, the warranty is hand written on the B.o.S., says 30 day warranty, 50%/50% on drive-train only. I was wrong, apparently its no limit on miles, just the 30 days.

Is there any benefit of using a rebuild kit on the junk yard transmission? or use it on my existing transmission?

If there is no reason not to rebuild the transmission that's on it now, that's what I will push for, no sense paying for an extra transmission. I figure since the two will most likely be in cahoots with each other, I'll just ask him for an estimate to rebuild the transmission correctly, preferably with the Kevlar clutch plates, and have him subtract whatever the dealer was actually going to contribute and let him keep that amount secret if he wants, just ask him what the total cost out of my pocket is going to be.

I'll first find out what they are going to propose once his guy has looked at it, then counter it with my suggestion if their proposal is bad.

But before any of that, I will contact the State and at least do some research on my rights before I speak with either of them.

Thanks again, you guys are wonderful on providing answers.

BTC

01tl4tl

no real reason to buy another trans= unless you drove yours over the curb and its leaking fluid from the case!
You havn't mentioned that happening,,so we will go with.. your trans case is ok

while the cases made after early 2005 do have the oil jet kit moved inside- it doesnt matter to the operation
and the newer case does have better oil passages,,but is it worth spending 500-1000 plus rebuilding it? not really

make some calls to local auto recyclers aka junkyards
ask about a gen2 trans and an oddessy trans,,they know what swaps in
be aware of all the info you can get before taking it in

the car dealer doesnt have to be an acura or big name dealer- to the State they are all the same
one guy or 100