Sanyin

Anyone use anything other then the Honda-Z1 ATF?
I recently changed it to the Z1 ATF from i dont know what was in there and it is causing some delayed shifts, was fine before with brown, burnt stuff. .

fsttyms1

Stick with the Honda fluid. Amsoil or redline are also good fluids if you are determined to switch.

Also when you changed the fluid, did you just change the 3 quarts or did you drain fill 3 times

01tl4tl

a 2000, probably first trans fluid change...high miles??? now hard shifting = uh-oh

if you have a fresh rebuild there are other choices to swap over to
Otherwise stay on honda fluid

mastini

iTrader: (6)

I'd say - stay with Z1.
As fsttyms1 said, redline is good too, but the main question is - why you want to move from honda z1?

01tl4tl

to try and fix the problem that showed after a fluid change~
not going to help but worth a thought

totaledTL

Replace external filter.

Sanyin

I did 3x3 drain/refill.

Sanyin

Yeah high miles, 201k. I dont like the sound of that uh-uh. It seems to be doing ok, went on a 1.5h trip...mostly smooth when warmed up.

Sanyin

I read some posts saying its not the greatest fluid, just wanted to see if anyone has used anything other in the 2000 TL.


Thanks for everyones input.

Sanyin

Thanks, already did that and the 3rd-4th gear Pressure Switches.

crazyjkz

I remember reading several threads and posts where some members who had switched over to Amsoil synthetic ATF from Honda Z1 had noticed smoother shifts and overall better shift quality. I haven't tried it yet myself but I have been considering it since the Amsoil is a suitable replacement for Honda Z1 and it is generally a superior ATF. It might be worth a try. You can see more details on the Amsoil ATF here: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx

Again I haven't personally tried it myself on my TL so maybe someone who has switched over to Amsoil synthetic ATF and noticed any improvements can chime in here...

jdjohn84

I kept waiting on someone else to chime-in, but I use Amsoil synthetic ATF. When I first got my car, there was occasional shuddering between 2nd and 3rd gear, but once I switched to Amsoil, the shuddering stopped. The car shifts much firmer than before. Being luxury cars, they are not intended to shift firm, but rather more smooooothly, so it feels a little different than stock. I have read that a firmer shift actually means less wear on the gears. A smooth shift takes longer as the gears slide over one another (or something like that), whereas a firm shift goes more directly from one gear to another, thus less sliding and less wear.

crazyjkz

I'm pretty sure that ultra-smooth shifting means increased slippage to create such a smooth transition between the gears and a firmer shift means less slippage, and since slippage creates more friction and heat, this is why firmer shifts usually mean less wear on the internal parts of a tranny. So theoretically it would be safe to assume that anything that can make the transmission shift firmer with less slippage SHOULD lead to less internal wear and an overall longer tranny lifespan.

I've been seriously considering switching over to the Amsoil synthetic ATF because I have heard of several users report that they have noticed more positive-feeling shifts and overall better shift quality when compared to the Honda Z1 along with reducing or eliminating transmission shudder and other shifting issues. Also the Amsoil is overall a superior ATF when compared to the Honda Z1 fluid due to the synthetic formula and it can handle higher temperatures without thermal breakdown and a host of other advantages as well. And since it is safe to use with any Honda/Acura automatic transmission then it definitely might be worth a look.

Amsoil also claims that their synthetic ATF offers superior protection over conventional ATFs against varnish and sludge deposits that can clog narrow oil passages which could lead to accelerated and premature clutchpack wear, and since 3rd gear clutchpack wear from inadequate oil flow is the reason why our transmissions fail prematurely then this property could be quite beneficial to a Honda automatic.

Although I am in no way saying that using Amsoil ATF can save a transmission from failing, I'm just merely pointing out the potential advantages of switching to a high-quality synthetic ATF like Amsoil since it has already been confirmed that running the Amsoil fluid can lead to overall better shift quality and other positive differences over the conventional Honda Z1 fluid.

Sanyin

Thanks for everyones input.

I have read many many posts on this but i still have not read anything about anybody with a 2000 TL that has actually used anything other then Z1. Yes apparently the Amsoil and Redline stuff is better from what i have read but only people with 3rd gen TLs and later claim there is a definite improvement. "I Hate Cars" who really seems to know his stuff and uses Redline or Amsoil has said he is unsure if it would make a difference in a 2nd gen because of some sort of DBW thing the later cars have.

This is what he says: "It won't hurt anything but since the 2G does not use the DBW there's the possiblity that the shifts could become harsh. The only way to know is to try it but definately do only a 1x3 and then get a few hours of drive time to decide if you want to do another drain and fill of the racing fluid or regular D4."

So yeah anybody whos tried it...feel free to chime in...

Sanyin

Also, from what i have learned and experienced smoother shifts can also be the result of gears switching/engaging quick. The pressure switches, if i can remember correctly, make some measurements to make sure the next gear clutches are engaging as the current gear is disengaging. This is so the next gear engages as soon as the previous gear is disengaged.

This above seems to be my issue sometimes, the current gear would disengage then there would be a noticeable split second till the next one engaged. During all this, of course, the engine is still revving and the car is coasting (not in any particular gear) and the speed drops a little. Then, when the next gear kicks in it jerks a little as the car has slowed down a bit................ and it accelerates again.


Simply...better ATF = faster shifts = less noticeable shifts = smoother performance

Sanyin

I have read the same thing on firm shifting causing less wear.

The other guy said it may make shifts firmer on 2003 and earlier because of the lack of the DBW (I think it automatically lets off the accelerator for a split sec to make shift smoother) on 2004 and later models.

Is this your 2003 TL you talking about.....?
5 speed Auto?

Sanyin

Better ATF seems to be non-friction modified/Type F or racing stuff (Redline or Amsoil) because this application requires very fast shifts.

Im gonna go by Mr Transmission and see what they say, then maybe do 1x3 of Redline or Amsoil...then feel it out from there...: ).

mvpel

Has anyone gone to Acura with a dead transmission and gotten any static about using non-Honda fluid?

01tl4tl

not yet
very few people still under warranty limits bother saving it--
let it go and get a fresh one for free~

I would not go to a different fluid with high miles on gen2 trans

crazyjkz

It shouldn't be a problem as long as the aftermarket ATF that you use is a recommended replacement and is fully compatible with the Honda Z1 fluid. It shows on the bottle what OEM fluids the ATF is compatible with and the Amsoil synthetic is fully compatible with Honda Z1.

However even if the dealership did try and give you a problem if you came to them with a tranny issue or a tranny failure and you were using a high-quality compatible aftermarket ATF such as Amsoil or Redline they would have to actually prove that the fluid was the direct cause of the problem or failure in order for them to deny coverage. And since the Amsoil synthetic has proven itself to be completely safe for long-term use with Honda automatics and it is actually a superior ATF when compared to the Honda Z1 I really don't see how any dealership could possibly come up with hard evidence like that.

01tl4tl

the tech does a code scan, a test drive to verify, MAY sniff the fluid for burnt smell as initial testing,,documents cause of failure..
turns in the info to service manager and the process begins

tech drains the fluid out to ship old trans,, but could care less whats in it--dead atf is dead atf
they make money changing parts, not causing problems for customers~

and as said above- the LAW, magnussen-dodge act, prevents them from screwing with you about it-they cannot prove your fluid did the damage,,while all these other acura trans suffered same prob on stock fluid...riiight it was redline killed it

crazyjkz

Even though we all know that the premature tranny failures are not directly a fluid problem but instead a lubrication problem with 3rd clutchpack, I think it's still quite interesting to see 2nd gen owners coming back and reporting improved overall shift quality, smoother shifts, and reduction or even elimination of issues like shudder between gears when switching over to the Amsoil synthetic ATF. I'm not sure exactly what it all means however it does indicate that switching over from a conventional ATF like the Honda Z1 to a Honda-compatible higher quality synthetic formula like the Amsoil can lead to overall improved transmission performance.

So the Amsoil fluid MUST be doing something good inside our tranmissions to create an immediately noticeable improvement in shift quality, I think it has a lot to do with the extra additives that the Amsoil fluid has. All of those extra detergents, anti-wear agents, corrosion inhibitiors, anti-oxidants and conditioners have to be beneficial to the overall functioning and performance of a transmission.

jdjohn84

yeppers

Sanyin

Wait, are you saying you using something different on a 2nd gen?

crazyjkz

As of right now I'm currently using the OEM Honda Z1 tranny fluid, but what I'm saying is that seeing several 2nd gen owners come back after switching over to the Amsoil synthetic ATF and report overall improved shift quality and reduction or even elimination of tranny issues such as shudder during shifting is compelling me to switch over to the Amsoil synthetic as well.

Also the fact that the Amsoil synthetic can handle higher temps than the Honda Z1 without thermal breakdown plus the extra additives, detergents and other beneficial agents that the Amsoil has that obviously lead to overall improved transmission performance are swaying me to at least give the Amsoil a try.

Sanyin

LOL. Now its just a waiting game to see who takes a chance first...me or you...

01tl4tl

the extra detergent part worries me on a high miles TL trans

crazyjkz

Well the Amsoil Universal Synthetic ATF has been proven to be totally safe and fully compatible for use in Honda automatic transmissions even with long-term use so it's no longer really a risk to use it as plenty of Honda/Acura owners have used it with their automatic transmissions and with good results.

As far as what 01tl4tl is saying regarding the detergents, well I don't have any hard evidence to show that the Amsoil synthetic necessarily has a higher level of detergents in it than the Honda Z1, but according to the Amsoil website their universal synthetic ATF is fortified with:

• Anti-wear/extreme-pressure agents (extend gear life)
• Durable friction modifiers (anti-shudder)
• Anti-oxidants (extend fluid life)
• Seal conditioners (reduce leaks)
• Detergents and dispersants (keep clean and control deposits)
• Corrosion inhibitors (control rust)
• Anti-foam agents (improve hydraulic function)

And one would have to assume that all of those special additives plus the strong synthetic formula is what makes the Amsoil not only a great ATF but also would explain the overall improvement in shift quality that owners have been reporting when they make the switch from Honda Z1 to the Amsoil synthetic.

However what 01tl4tl says could be a cause for concern with high-mileage TL transmissions if it definitely does have a significantly higher level of detergents and cleaning-agents due to the theory that the grime and build-up in an older high-mileage tranny helps give the clutchpacks and gears their grip and prevents it from slipping, and if that accumulated build-up/sludge/dirt is removed by detergents then the tranny could possibly start slipping.

Some say that even changing the ATF in a high-mileage older automatic transmission that hasn't had it's ATF changed regularly could lead to it slipping, and the theory is that a high-quality synthetic ATF like Amsoil with lots of beneficial additives such as cleaning-agents and detergents COULD have the same effect. So if you have a high-mileage older TL tranny then it might be safer to just stay with the OEM Honda fluid ESPECIALLY if the transmission hasn't had its fluid changed regularly.

I hate cars

This is a closed case.

Redline Racing (type F) non friction modified fluid is the only thing you want to put in the trans. There are a ton of us 3Gers running it and for a bunch of miles. Shifts are super quick and crisp. The drain magnet shows NO metal anymore. It has cured a ton of tranmissions with the shudder problem. Shift quality is actually improved because it eliminates the bump shift that even a new 5at has.

A non FM fluid typically will give 50% more dynamic clutch holding power and 100% more static holding power. The only downside is that in some brands you get shudder. In the Acura it's the opposite, this fluid eliminates shudder.

Consider that Z1 is loaded with FM you can see why the already overworked trans has issues. Couple this with 3rd and 4th gear switches that go bad in about 3 years/50,000 miles and it's a recipe for disaster.

Check out all of the impeding trans failures that switch replacement and type F fluid has cured in the 3g section.

If I would have known we could use this fluid from the beginning, I would've swapped it out the day I brought it home from the dealer. Clutch wear can be cut by over half.

Consider the one turbo TL with the 5at is holding up very well at over 100,000 miles on the original trans, over 400hp at the wheels, full weight, and the only mod to the trans was the type F fluid (Amsoil Super Shift in this case) and the switch replacement.

I hate cars

In an older trans that has not been serviced properly it's not a bad idea to do a 1x3, drive for a week and then do another just to introduce the new fluid slowly. Not completely necessary but it won't hurt and could possibly help.

If you want to go with Amsoil, skip the "ATF" and go straight for the "Super Shift" non FM formula. It will greatly extend the life of the trans. Same goes or Redline. Skip the D4 and go straight for the "racing".

gen2gsr

so just do the 3x3 change with the redline racing or with old fluid do the 1x3 weekly to introduce the new fluid correct?

01tl4tl

that brings up the question of how the old fluid is removed and does it mix less by driving the acura method of around the block using each gear a few times--
they say 5 minutes as time limit- the idea being to keep undercar exhaust temps down so you can get in there and work

Their methods are based on acura techs doing the work, and doing minimum needed to accomplish the task

I am not a trans expert!!!- only have my owns' failure, and shudder on replacement trans, to go by
Sounds like IHC has the soluction,, so its off to get 3 qts redline for me--if it fixes that low speed shudder I will be happy enough

I hate cars

If you want to "test" it with a cheaper fluid, any old Type F will work before you pay the $10/quart for Redline.

If you have the shudder or a flare on the 2-3 or 3-4 shift the switches need to be done too.

When the switches go bad you have one gear releasing before the other applies which results in a flare and eventually wears out the 3rd and 4th gear clutch packs. The type f fluid will help a little with this problem but the switches need to be done too. In fact, I'm doing this on a '99 today. I started to do it last night but as soon as I popped the hood there was no way I was going to do it in the dark. I dug around and couldn't even see the switches. Going to do it in about an hour. Maybe I can take some pictures.

gen2gsr

id be up to see how to replace these switches if you did happen to take pics

I hate cars

I'll take a couple. Still haven't done it yet but I will before the day is over.

I hate cars

I did it today but had a hiccup. The dealer only had one of the switches. So I did a 2x2 drain and fill with type F fluid and replaced just the one switch. I thought I was putting it in the 3rd gear slot but I might've done the 4th gear one by mistake.

A little history on this '99 TL. This is the first one I've personally done the switches on. Every gear was sloppy. There was a huge flare on the 2-3 and 3-4 shift. It's like 2nd releases, about a second goes by and then 3rd applies. Same with the 3-4. Takes about 1.5 to 2 seconds for the shift to happen. It flared by about 1,500rpm between these gears. I was worried it might be past the point of no return. Did the one switch and a 2x2 of type F fluid.

It was immediately better. With the Type F fluid it takes a while to completely work. It has to reach the clutches and then wash the left over FM of the Z1 off the clutch face. Once the Z1 is out of there, the difference starts to be noticed.

So we go for a drive. 1-2 felt the same on the first shift but by the 3rd to 4th 1-2 shift it felt great. There was still the huge flare on the 2-3 shift. 3-4 was MUCH better, almost normal. I drove it around in manual mode going between 2-3-4 gears over and over. As it sits, the 3-4 is 100% normal and as good as factory new. 1-2 is normal except it shifts a little late still (high rpms) but I can live with that. 2-3 still has a small flare but 1,000% better than it was.

This car was scary to drive too far from home because the flare was so terrible it felt like it was going to fail any moment. $140 later it feels completely normal except for a very slight 2-3 flare which some people wouldn't even notice. I think I accidentally put the new switch in the 4th gear hole instead of the 3rd gear hole especially because the 3-4 shift was instantly better before the fluid could even get to it. The type F fluid seems to have greatly improved the shift even without the switch. The other switch will be in on Tuesday so I expect this trans to be 100% fixed.

I will take pictures of everything then. We were really pressed for time today. I spent less than 20 minutes from start to finish excluding test drives.

If a couple members of Acurazine can find the cure in less than a year of searching, something is wrong here. How did all of these bright Honda engineers not come up with this? It pisses me off to no end to see how simple it is and I can't help to think that if some redneck can come up with this, Honda had to have known all along.

01tl4tl

knowing... and caring... about a fix for a 2 generation old car= are different things
They would like to see all cars go thru 7 to 10 years of use,, then be dismantled for recycling

I hate cars

Agreed. That's why I want to spread the word so that more of these cars can be saved. Unfortunately the 3g TLs were going down the same path. It seems like a shudder/flare post was coming up at least once a week. It's almost as if they engineered this switch/fluid combo to make sure the trans would not last too long.

ChucksCL-S

Honda's way of enriching themselves and their dealers, perhaps. Every busted tranny that comes in gets replaced with a rebuilt one (not a new one) and the motor mounts are usually done too. A very large repair bill.

01tl4tl

I dont think the dealers are getting that many retail sales replacement trans
A gen2 is headed for a cheaper option at local shop for half the price

Warranty replacements--yep,, every week at least 3 of them!!

true the warranty units are `rebuilt`- but for gen2 that means a post 2005 case,
and for all rebuilts- good hard parts are reused and new soft wearout parts are replaced with new