sbuswell

My TL has nearly 128k on it. It runs very strong and I take extremely good care of the engine. I have been running M1 full syn for 60k and change oil and M1 104 or 105 filter every 5-8k. always used 5W30. I have been thinking about switching to 0W20 or maybe 5W20. I have always been told running oil that thin in a high mileage car can have negative effect/leaks and such. I wanted to get some of your opinions on this subjects and what the real pros and cons to switching to a thinner oil could be. Thanks.

Shaun

fsttyms1

there is no reason to switch. you really wont benifit from it. that said, there is no reason not to switch either. If your not burning it now you shouldnt with it either. My 2 cents id stick with 5w30. its what the car recomends

sbuswell

OK, so there are no performance benefits from thinner oil? I also like the idea of the engine being woken up faster and warming up faster. I have never burned a drop of oil. I was also thinking of using Auto-RX in the crankcase, any thoughts on that on a car with 128k?

fsttyms1

the only reason honda went to the thinner oil was to help meet cafe standards for the entire line up. not for performance . the car will warm up just as fast with the 30 as it will with the 20.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Old engine = larger bearing clearances due to wear = better to stay with thicker oil

Then again, how much difference could it possibly make, yeah? Go for it if you want. But I would stick with what works now. Besides, it's what's recommended.

sbuswell

Cool, any downside to using Auto-RX with on a car with this many miles though?

TunedTL

90% of the engine wear occurs during startup. The lower the viscousity at startup temperature the better. Remember oil that flow lubirates better, not sticky wax-like oil, or a glue that can resist high temp should be the best engine oil. Take a look at Mobil 1's spec

0w20 cSt @ 40º C is 43, 5w30 is 64.8.
This is at 40º C, which the mperature of a car baked in Arizona summer sun for a while. The difference is even bigger at lower temperature. No oil is close to 10 at startup temp, but closer the better.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...bil1_0W-20.asp
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...bil1_5W-30.asp

sbuswell

based on the 0W20 links above it sounds like better performance and increased protection are there. Has anyone here run 0W20 and what where your thoughts?

RickRoush03

don't bother with auto-rx or whatever, if the engine runs fine which you say it does, you do reg oil changes, then the engine doesn't need anything speical. maybe add some fuel injector cleaner in the next tank fill, other than that, maybe get an oil sample reading done just to confirm you engine is in good health.

TunedTL

I used 0w20, but now with 5w20 since Mobil 1 discontinued with 0w20. No problem whatever. Here is a good link that goes as far as saying 0w30 (which Mobil 1 makes and Napa Auto carries it) is ALWAYS better than 5w30 and 10w30.
Just want to share, not to spark a debate.
http://63.240.161.99/motoroil/101.html

RickRoush03

you got it backwards jack, its the lower number that is at cold start up, the higher number is when its at operating temps.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/oil_viscosity.html

TunedTL

I don't think anyone says 20 in "0w20" or 30 in "5w30" is for startup temp. Did I miss something
In fact, we are discussing exclusively 0 in "0w20" or "0w30" gives better protection than 5 in "5w30" because the oil flows better at startup.

fsttyms1

And thats only at initial start up. I personallydont like the thin weight of the 0w20 and 0w30 especially with my driving. I much prefer 5w30 I have over 200k on my old motor and i dont think 0w20 or 30 would have made it any better. It wouldnt have added any performance and in my driving probably wouldnt have protected nearly as good or lasted as long

samkws

it's not winter time now, even at winter i use 0W-40 instead

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

The bigger the difference between cold visocity and operating temperature viscosity, the more viscosity modifiers are present in the base stock. That means you have less actual oil per given quantity. How is that ALWAYS better?

Everybody has their own preference and beliefs when it comes to oil. The site you provided may say that 0 weight is always better, but I've read other materials that claim otherwise. So it just depends on what you want to believe.

fsttyms1

talk to michael wan hes the oil expert here

TunedTL

Yes, just take this link as an input, what one puts into a car is his personal choice. But he does have some (not all) good arguments and facts.
Here is a summary from Mobil 1's spec, I think if one is concerned about the oil thinning of 1-2 at operating temperature, get 0w30 instead, which has a perfect viscosity of 10 at 100ºC.

0w30
SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 56
cSt @ 100ºC 10.3
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 175

5w30
SAE Grade 5W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 64.8
cSt @ 100º C 11.3
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 169

5w20
SAE Grade 5W-20
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 48.3
cSt @ 100º C 8.8
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270

0w20
SAE Grade 0W-20
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 43
cSt @ 100º C 8.4
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 165

SodaLuvr

There should be no durability or wear issues when running a 5w-20 in place of a 5w-30 in most Honda/Acura engines. Remember that most 5w-30 mineral oils will thin to a 5w-20 “like” viscosity so the viscosity difference between the two, especially while using synthetic oil, shouldn’t make a huge difference.

OTOH, the 99 TL recommends 5w-30. While there isn’t a reason why the 5w-20 would not work, I cannot see any benefit to switching at this point, given the high mileage. The higher mileage engines will be more worn, and the slightly thicker oil of the 5w-30 may be more beneficial than the 5w-20 towards the greater tolerances and allowing better ring seal. The better ring seal you may obtain from the thicker oil may actually allow for better fuel efficiency.

Also, use the Mobil 1 EP-104 filter only. Do not use the EP-105. A common misconception is that the larger the filter, the better. This is completely incorrect as more media does not necessarily equate to better filtration. The grade of media in a particular line-up of filters will not be identical in every size, as not all vehicle manufacturers spec the same drain interval. A good example of this would be comparing a ST8A sized filter to a ST7317 sized filter. The former specs a 3000 mi service interval by the manufacturer, while the latter specs a 10,000 mi service interval, yet the latter is about 1/3 the size of the former.

The “0” and “5” values are empirical numbers attained by oils that meet a predetermined viscosity limit at a specific temperature, as outlined by the SAE J300 chart. The temperatures are usually < -20C. However, you can blend a 0w30 oil that will be thinner than a 5w30 at 40F, yet you can blend a 0w30 that is thicker than both a 5w30 and a 10w30 at 40F, yet still meet the cut-off at cold temperatures to carry the “0” rating. In other words, the lower value does not necessarily mean that the oil will automatically be thinner at 40F. The thicker ACEA A3/B3 type 0w30 oils, will be built from a higher weight molecular base oil in comparison to an API SM/GF-4 rated 0w30 oil.

Lastly, not all engines are able reach oil temperatures in excess of 200F during normal driving. For many people, during much of the driving, the oil is still warming up and there may be huge viscosity differences between various grades of oil. Experiment with 0/5w-20 or 5w/10w-30 and verifying with oil analysis to find the best oil for your application may be worthwile.

TunedTL

Micheal, thanks for clarification.
Definely multi-weight SAE grading is often misleading, finding out the detailed spec is better. Unfortunately, realstic starting temp 60-70 degree F is not avaliable so I use 40ºC as a rough guideline.
I also believe for daily driving and occusional racing there is not enough heat generated by the engine and not disappated by stock cooling system to exceed > 100ºC and warrant thicker than 30 weight oil.
On the seal and bearing, don't you think it is better to replace a worn seal than pouring thicker than necessary oil to stop leaking? Sure it is a cheap and short term solution but long term wise won't it be better to solve the cause of an oil leak rather than clog it up?

FYI from http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp, it is about synthetic causing oil to leak vs dino but I think similiar argument may applies here.

SodaLuvr

I don't know anything about heavier oils causing fewer leaks than thinner oils. I do know that thicker oils may sometimes slow oil consumption, however.

Before replacing seals, I'd try a chemical seal sweller. Of course, I have sources for super seal swellers that most people don't...

kuni808

Im no oil expert but all the arguements are pretty convincing. but on a note since ive been changing my own oil for a long ass time. this is what i know. I have a 03 Type S. The recommended oil weight is 5w-20. I like the Mobile 1s but dam the 5w-20 is by quart only. cost a lot to change. so i tried the M1 5w-30 in my type s. for some reason the motor did not respond so well when you start to accelerate. So i went back to castrol Syntec 5w-20 and the response was better. so I mean it just depends on what is recommended from the manufacture. Id say stick with the recommended weight but buy a better oil for example royal purple if oil quality is a concern. i want to try that but man i cant seem to find it. hmm. but i bet its more than the M1. haha. I stick with Castrol Syntec 5w-20 with the JDM Hamp Filter.