Honda to Stop Selling Legend in Japan
07-16-2010, 06:40 AM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Honda to Stop Selling Legend in Japan
Does this mean the end of the RL or perhaps it will become an Acura exclusive instead of a rebadge?
July 16 - Honda Motor Co <7267.T> would stop selling two of its longstanding brands and phase out the gas-powered Civic in its domestic market, to focus on green vehicles and low-priced cars, the Nikkei business daily reported.
The No 2 Japanese carmaker, which is now focusing on low-priced cars for India and other emerging markets, will stop the Legend and the Elysion models, and sell only the hybrid version of the Civic in Japan, the daily said.
The carmaker will roll out an all-new Civic worldwide around 2011 fall, the paper said.
As part of its domestic production retooling, Honda has decided to resume construction of a hybrid-car factory in Yorii, Saitama Prefecture, but will scrap plans to build a minivehicle plant in Mie Prefecture, the daily said.
July 16 - Honda Motor Co <7267.T> would stop selling two of its longstanding brands and phase out the gas-powered Civic in its domestic market, to focus on green vehicles and low-priced cars, the Nikkei business daily reported.
The No 2 Japanese carmaker, which is now focusing on low-priced cars for India and other emerging markets, will stop the Legend and the Elysion models, and sell only the hybrid version of the Civic in Japan, the daily said.
The carmaker will roll out an all-new Civic worldwide around 2011 fall, the paper said.
As part of its domestic production retooling, Honda has decided to resume construction of a hybrid-car factory in Yorii, Saitama Prefecture, but will scrap plans to build a minivehicle plant in Mie Prefecture, the daily said.
Last edited by TSX69; 07-16-2010 at 06:43 AM.
07-16-2010, 08:30 AM
#3
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Actually based on Autoblogs aticle are they saying its gone here too?
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/16/r...y-discontinue/
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/16/r...y-discontinue/
07-16-2010, 08:43 AM
#4
Safety Car
Thread Starter
AutoBlog
So far, AutoBlog is the only site that mentions the Acura RL ... all others do not.
The RL & TSX are the only rebadged cars, whereas the MDX, RDX, ZDX & TL are all Acura exclusives sold in NA & China ... so hopefully there will be a 3rd generation RL. It will probably still be based off the Accord tho ...
A few years ago there was an article about Acura no longer rebadging Hondas but when Acura ended their Tier 1 push I never heard anything else about it ... hopefully it is still going on.
The RL & TSX are the only rebadged cars, whereas the MDX, RDX, ZDX & TL are all Acura exclusives sold in NA & China ... so hopefully there will be a 3rd generation RL. It will probably still be based off the Accord tho ...
A few years ago there was an article about Acura no longer rebadging Hondas but when Acura ended their Tier 1 push I never heard anything else about it ... hopefully it is still going on.
07-16-2010, 08:57 AM
#5
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
The SKY is FALLING!!!!
This is too little information to panic in EITHER direction. The picture is bigger. LEGEND is still sold in it's markets until the inventory is depleted...that should run through the 2011, if not called a 2011 model.
They are several things to consider before going Chicken Little.
1) Honda is not a premium, large, heavy car company. It is obtuse for Honda to produce a luxury sedan in the eyes of other global markets. Small, efficient, reliable vehicles is what Honda represents globally. Only in the good ole USA do we want Designer Wal-Mart, BMW wheel-barrels and Dior toilet plungers.
2) In response to #1, Honda has known the LEGEND is too much car for the Honda moniker. Hence the PLAN was to offshore the Acura brand overseas and shift the model as an Acura only vehicle...therefore we have Acura RL in China. But again, the nasty global marketplace hobbled those plans...at least from the immediate implementation plan. This could be an attempt to move forward with that strategy again. Expensive Honda will become Acura...worldwide and open Acura as more more global premium brand.
3) Honda's new plants (both auto and engine) near Saitama and Yori were being built for the V8, V10, RWD initiatives. That halted and the plants had to be re-purposed....HYBRID re-purposed. So these plants may still be the future birthplace of the next gen RL (if not LEGEND) as a luxo hybrid or Acura's latest "Smart Luxury" pursuit. The next RL would be the showcase vehicle to introduce that (hopefully while mopping up the keen-edge-dynamic-Advance-vomit we are currently being hawked).
4) The car has basically been produced out for the MY already, likely with enough inventory to handle the triple digit sales 2011 MY will require. If there is a shift in production plants, a major reinvention of the model and a corporate branding shift in a GLOBAL market....would it not serve to introduce a gap in the model availability? Could you image a new and improved Acura-only model (say a revolutionary changed hybrid model) being offered next door to a Honda LEGEND? Acura cannot be introduced into new markets with a model already offered by a sister brand of fuel efficient cheap car. The dual personality will need to be severed. The Honda / Acura NSX was to face the same strategy before it was killed.
5) How can we expect Acura to return a LEGEND until Honda discontinues the model? This co-branding / rebadging Honda and Acura have intertwined needs to be unraveled before Acura could return the LEGEND badge to the the place that made it infamous.
6) Japanese premium vehicles are being hacked off at the knees in the Asian market....by the Koreans. GENESIS and EQUUS marketers do not even mention Acura or Infinity models as prey. Lexus is...and with the Toyota / Lexus issues of late, Hyundai is capitalizing and producing impressive leaps unseen since Acura and Lexus forged the Japanese premium market 25+ years ago. The Koreans have done to the Japanese premiums what Acura and Lexus did the the European premiums.
Indeed, this is an indicator or change. But have we not all been whining for change? When LEGEND constrains what we want in the RL we whine and moan. When LEGEND may release RL form those constraints we cower in fear?
Before assuming change is only bad, look at the bigger picture.
They are several things to consider before going Chicken Little.
1) Honda is not a premium, large, heavy car company. It is obtuse for Honda to produce a luxury sedan in the eyes of other global markets. Small, efficient, reliable vehicles is what Honda represents globally. Only in the good ole USA do we want Designer Wal-Mart, BMW wheel-barrels and Dior toilet plungers.
2) In response to #1, Honda has known the LEGEND is too much car for the Honda moniker. Hence the PLAN was to offshore the Acura brand overseas and shift the model as an Acura only vehicle...therefore we have Acura RL in China. But again, the nasty global marketplace hobbled those plans...at least from the immediate implementation plan. This could be an attempt to move forward with that strategy again. Expensive Honda will become Acura...worldwide and open Acura as more more global premium brand.
3) Honda's new plants (both auto and engine) near Saitama and Yori were being built for the V8, V10, RWD initiatives. That halted and the plants had to be re-purposed....HYBRID re-purposed. So these plants may still be the future birthplace of the next gen RL (if not LEGEND) as a luxo hybrid or Acura's latest "Smart Luxury" pursuit. The next RL would be the showcase vehicle to introduce that (hopefully while mopping up the keen-edge-dynamic-Advance-vomit we are currently being hawked).
4) The car has basically been produced out for the MY already, likely with enough inventory to handle the triple digit sales 2011 MY will require. If there is a shift in production plants, a major reinvention of the model and a corporate branding shift in a GLOBAL market....would it not serve to introduce a gap in the model availability? Could you image a new and improved Acura-only model (say a revolutionary changed hybrid model) being offered next door to a Honda LEGEND? Acura cannot be introduced into new markets with a model already offered by a sister brand of fuel efficient cheap car. The dual personality will need to be severed. The Honda / Acura NSX was to face the same strategy before it was killed.
5) How can we expect Acura to return a LEGEND until Honda discontinues the model? This co-branding / rebadging Honda and Acura have intertwined needs to be unraveled before Acura could return the LEGEND badge to the the place that made it infamous.
6) Japanese premium vehicles are being hacked off at the knees in the Asian market....by the Koreans. GENESIS and EQUUS marketers do not even mention Acura or Infinity models as prey. Lexus is...and with the Toyota / Lexus issues of late, Hyundai is capitalizing and producing impressive leaps unseen since Acura and Lexus forged the Japanese premium market 25+ years ago. The Koreans have done to the Japanese premiums what Acura and Lexus did the the European premiums.
Indeed, this is an indicator or change. But have we not all been whining for change? When LEGEND constrains what we want in the RL we whine and moan. When LEGEND may release RL form those constraints we cower in fear?
Before assuming change is only bad, look at the bigger picture.
07-16-2010, 09:28 AM
#6
Instructor
This isn't necessarily bad news. The fact is the current 2G RL is dead in the water, as is the Legend. We all know that. It doesn't say that Acura won't have a vehicle above the TL, or that the RL itself will die, just the current one that also is the Legend. As an American brand, and one that isn't going anywhere else soon, Acura likely will discontinue re-badging foreign market Hondas and will have a lineup that is Acura from the ground up (but alas also not Tier 1). There could be a 3G RL, but one that's built here (which will lower costs tremendously), sized for here, and perhaps shares more with the TL/MDX/ZDX.
Trending Topics
07-16-2010, 10:03 AM
#8
Go Big Blue!
This is too little information to panic in EITHER direction. The picture is bigger. LEGEND is still sold in it's markets until the inventory is depleted...that should run through the 2011, if not called a 2011 model.
They are several things to consider before going Chicken Little.
1) Honda is not a premium, large, heavy car company. It is obtuse for Honda to produce a luxury sedan in the eyes of other global markets. Small, efficient, reliable vehicles is what Honda represents globally. Only in the good ole USA do we want Designer Wal-Mart, BMW wheel-barrels and Dior toilet plungers.
2) In response to #1, Honda has known the LEGEND is too much car for the Honda moniker. Hence the PLAN was to offshore the Acura brand overseas and shift the model as an Acura only vehicle...therefore we have Acura RL in China. But again, the nasty global marketplace hobbled those plans...at least from the immediate implementation plan. This could be an attempt to move forward with that strategy again. Expensive Honda will become Acura...worldwide and open Acura as more more global premium brand.
3) Honda's new plants (both auto and engine) near Saitama and Yori were being built for the V8, V10, RWD initiatives. That halted and the plants had to be re-purposed....HYBRID re-purposed. So these plants may still be the future birthplace of the next gen RL (if not LEGEND) as a luxo hybrid or Acura's latest "Smart Luxury" pursuit. The next RL would be the showcase vehicle to introduce that (hopefully while mopping up the keen-edge-dynamic-Advance-vomit we are currently being hawked).
4) The car has basically been produced out for the MY already, likely with enough inventory to handle the triple digit sales 2011 MY will require. If there is a shift in production plants, a major reinvention of the model and a corporate branding shift in a GLOBAL market....would it not serve to introduce a gap in the model availability? Could you image a new and improved Acura-only model (say a revolutionary changed hybrid model) being offered next door to a Honda LEGEND? Acura cannot be introduced into new markets with a model already offered by a sister brand of fuel efficient cheap car. The dual personality will need to be severed. The Honda / Acura NSX was to face the same strategy before it was killed.
5) How can we expect Acura to return a LEGEND until Honda discontinues the model? This co-branding / rebadging Honda and Acura have intertwined needs to be unraveled before Acura could return the LEGEND badge to the the place that made it infamous.
6) Japanese premium vehicles are being hacked off at the knees in the Asian market....by the Koreans. GENESIS and EQUUS marketers do not even mention Acura or Infinity models as prey. Lexus is...and with the Toyota / Lexus issues of late, Hyundai is capitalizing and producing impressive leaps unseen since Acura and Lexus forged the Japanese premium market 25+ years ago. The Koreans have done to the Japanese premiums what Acura and Lexus did the the European premiums.
Indeed, this is an indicator or change. But have we not all been whining for change? When LEGEND constrains what we want in the RL we whine and moan. When LEGEND may release RL form those constraints we cower in fear?
Before assuming change is only bad, look at the bigger picture.
They are several things to consider before going Chicken Little.
1) Honda is not a premium, large, heavy car company. It is obtuse for Honda to produce a luxury sedan in the eyes of other global markets. Small, efficient, reliable vehicles is what Honda represents globally. Only in the good ole USA do we want Designer Wal-Mart, BMW wheel-barrels and Dior toilet plungers.
2) In response to #1, Honda has known the LEGEND is too much car for the Honda moniker. Hence the PLAN was to offshore the Acura brand overseas and shift the model as an Acura only vehicle...therefore we have Acura RL in China. But again, the nasty global marketplace hobbled those plans...at least from the immediate implementation plan. This could be an attempt to move forward with that strategy again. Expensive Honda will become Acura...worldwide and open Acura as more more global premium brand.
3) Honda's new plants (both auto and engine) near Saitama and Yori were being built for the V8, V10, RWD initiatives. That halted and the plants had to be re-purposed....HYBRID re-purposed. So these plants may still be the future birthplace of the next gen RL (if not LEGEND) as a luxo hybrid or Acura's latest "Smart Luxury" pursuit. The next RL would be the showcase vehicle to introduce that (hopefully while mopping up the keen-edge-dynamic-Advance-vomit we are currently being hawked).
4) The car has basically been produced out for the MY already, likely with enough inventory to handle the triple digit sales 2011 MY will require. If there is a shift in production plants, a major reinvention of the model and a corporate branding shift in a GLOBAL market....would it not serve to introduce a gap in the model availability? Could you image a new and improved Acura-only model (say a revolutionary changed hybrid model) being offered next door to a Honda LEGEND? Acura cannot be introduced into new markets with a model already offered by a sister brand of fuel efficient cheap car. The dual personality will need to be severed. The Honda / Acura NSX was to face the same strategy before it was killed.
5) How can we expect Acura to return a LEGEND until Honda discontinues the model? This co-branding / rebadging Honda and Acura have intertwined needs to be unraveled before Acura could return the LEGEND badge to the the place that made it infamous.
6) Japanese premium vehicles are being hacked off at the knees in the Asian market....by the Koreans. GENESIS and EQUUS marketers do not even mention Acura or Infinity models as prey. Lexus is...and with the Toyota / Lexus issues of late, Hyundai is capitalizing and producing impressive leaps unseen since Acura and Lexus forged the Japanese premium market 25+ years ago. The Koreans have done to the Japanese premiums what Acura and Lexus did the the European premiums.
Indeed, this is an indicator or change. But have we not all been whining for change? When LEGEND constrains what we want in the RL we whine and moan. When LEGEND may release RL form those constraints we cower in fear?
Before assuming change is only bad, look at the bigger picture.
By the way, AutoBlog's mention of the RL also being killed sounds like an extrapolation of the facts - i.e. a guess. I wouldn't put much weight in that yet.
07-16-2010, 10:50 AM
#9
Senior Moderator
News posted in Automotive News... 
07-16-2010, 10:50 AM
#10
Senior Moderator
...but, 
to RL...
to RL...
07-16-2010, 11:42 AM
#11
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Too bad I always liked the RL... well, the one before the current MMC. Such a well designed vehicle. So much for "Advance."
I guess Honda decided they weren't going to try and figure out why the RL wasn't selling and just dump everything.
I guess Honda decided they weren't going to try and figure out why the RL wasn't selling and just dump everything.
07-16-2010, 12:05 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
i certainly hope Acura parts its ways with the concept of V6s only and up with the V8s and RWD. for the love of cars, Hyundai have a V8!!! it's sad that even though Acura has been in the premium car bracket for so long, it is still perceived as a more expensive Honda only...nothing more, nothing less. and the current design changes aren't helping with sales either.
07-16-2010, 12:22 PM
#13
Go Big Blue!
i certainly hope Acura parts its ways with the concept of V6s only and up with the V8s and RWD. for the love of cars, Hyundai have a V8!!! it's sad that even though Acura has been in the premium car bracket for so long, it is still perceived as a more expensive Honda only...nothing more, nothing less. and the current design changes aren't helping with sales either.
I would be inclinded to think Honda is shutting down the Legend world car and moving production to N.A. for the next gen because they want to take the car up in size for the N.A. market only.
That would be good for Acura N.A. but, as we've seen, Honda doesn't seem to always do what's best for the Acura brand. They tend to think small and focus mostly on the Honda brand.
07-16-2010, 12:56 PM
#14
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I think Acura decided it was going to go some "3rd way" and not become Tier 1 but not be Hondas w/leather, either. I respect them for their engineering, fuel economy, and technology but when it comes to upscale they just don't seem to get it.
So now Acura goes to having 2 sedans and 3 SUVs. The ZDX will never sell in great numbers so that leaves them with 4 vehicles!
Some might say "the RL never sold anyway now Acura can start afresh" but I think it's more like "the RL never sold anyway let's just go where we know and stick to mid-tier cars."
I left Acura after having been there for 4 years. At Mercedes it is amazing... so much new product coming out... new engines, supercars, coupes, sedans... non-stop always something to talk about or sell. To me it's like one company knows where it's going so I want to be there versus the other that is just going nowhere in particular.
I'm sure sales people at Acura are very deflated now.
So now Acura goes to having 2 sedans and 3 SUVs. The ZDX will never sell in great numbers so that leaves them with 4 vehicles!
Some might say "the RL never sold anyway now Acura can start afresh" but I think it's more like "the RL never sold anyway let's just go where we know and stick to mid-tier cars."
I left Acura after having been there for 4 years. At Mercedes it is amazing... so much new product coming out... new engines, supercars, coupes, sedans... non-stop always something to talk about or sell. To me it's like one company knows where it's going so I want to be there versus the other that is just going nowhere in particular.
I'm sure sales people at Acura are very deflated now.
07-16-2010, 01:11 PM
#16
Go Big Blue!
I think Acura decided it was going to go some "3rd way" and not become Tier 1 but not be Hondas w/leather, either. I respect them for their engineering, fuel economy, and technology but when it comes to upscale they just don't seem to get it.
So now Acura goes to having 2 sedans and 3 SUVs. The ZDX will never sell in great numbers so that leaves them with 4 vehicles!
Some might say "the RL never sold anyway now Acura can start afresh" but I think it's more like "the RL never sold anyway let's just go where we know and stick to mid-tier cars."
I left Acura after having been there for 4 years. At Mercedes it is amazing... so much new product coming out... new engines, supercars, coupes, sedans... non-stop always something to talk about or sell. To me it's like one company knows where it's going so I want to be there versus the other that is just going nowhere in particular.
I'm sure sales people at Acura are very deflated now.
So now Acura goes to having 2 sedans and 3 SUVs. The ZDX will never sell in great numbers so that leaves them with 4 vehicles!
Some might say "the RL never sold anyway now Acura can start afresh" but I think it's more like "the RL never sold anyway let's just go where we know and stick to mid-tier cars."
I left Acura after having been there for 4 years. At Mercedes it is amazing... so much new product coming out... new engines, supercars, coupes, sedans... non-stop always something to talk about or sell. To me it's like one company knows where it's going so I want to be there versus the other that is just going nowhere in particular.
I'm sure sales people at Acura are very deflated now.
07-16-2010, 01:11 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
07-16-2010, 01:56 PM
#18
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
I guess we will have to wait for official Honda press releases. Only Autoblog mentions the RL whereas the Japanese press clips speaks only of Honda brand and the LEGEND model. So for now, I am not convinced the discontinuation of the LEGEND translates to Acura dropping a flagship sedan over the TL.
As recent as May, there was press that Acura was indeed to have a new flagship. It may not be called RL, or LEGEND but it certainly will not be the existing model or another revision of it. Perhpas ending the current twin models is just an opportunity to transition into an Acura only flagship. I personally prefer Japanese built, but I realize that is economically challenging now. And I will nod to a noticed improvement in US built vehicles, and particulary the TL (over my 05 TL).
I cannot imagine Acura as a brand only having 2 sedans...although Infinity has just the M and G. But I do not feel the TL is on par with the M and could substantiate itself as the flagship car with enough differentiation from Honda.
As mentioned, Acura already has stigma as Honda with leather. Losing the flagship in the lineup would make Acura closer to Honda still. Sadly even the Accord superficially overlaps the RL that novice buys (the majority) think it is an RL without SHAWD. Without a flagship sedan Honda and Acura might as re-brand as Hondura.
My bet is still this is an intended break to create opportunity for a new Acura flagship. I do not expect V8, RWD, but something high end premium off the Honda Dual Note / Acura DNX concept. A high tech, high efficiency, high content, high performing vehicle could be interesting and in my hopes.
But of not, I still love my RL as much as the day I brought it home. It is solid as a drum and no vehicle I have owned has shown so little wear in 4 years. I plan to run it awhile, very unlike my history. And as is now, if Acura offers nothing of interest to me, when the time comes for a new vehicle I will shop elsewhere. Fortunately for now...there is nothing I lust for more than my RL.
As recent as May, there was press that Acura was indeed to have a new flagship. It may not be called RL, or LEGEND but it certainly will not be the existing model or another revision of it. Perhpas ending the current twin models is just an opportunity to transition into an Acura only flagship. I personally prefer Japanese built, but I realize that is economically challenging now. And I will nod to a noticed improvement in US built vehicles, and particulary the TL (over my 05 TL).
I cannot imagine Acura as a brand only having 2 sedans...although Infinity has just the M and G. But I do not feel the TL is on par with the M and could substantiate itself as the flagship car with enough differentiation from Honda.
As mentioned, Acura already has stigma as Honda with leather. Losing the flagship in the lineup would make Acura closer to Honda still. Sadly even the Accord superficially overlaps the RL that novice buys (the majority) think it is an RL without SHAWD. Without a flagship sedan Honda and Acura might as re-brand as Hondura.
My bet is still this is an intended break to create opportunity for a new Acura flagship. I do not expect V8, RWD, but something high end premium off the Honda Dual Note / Acura DNX concept. A high tech, high efficiency, high content, high performing vehicle could be interesting and in my hopes.
But of not, I still love my RL as much as the day I brought it home. It is solid as a drum and no vehicle I have owned has shown so little wear in 4 years. I plan to run it awhile, very unlike my history. And as is now, if Acura offers nothing of interest to me, when the time comes for a new vehicle I will shop elsewhere. Fortunately for now...there is nothing I lust for more than my RL.
07-16-2010, 02:12 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
that's exactly what everyone have been hoping for since the first generation RLs. sadly, after more than a decade later, we're still where we were then.....no V8, RWD, high tech, high efficiency, high content, high performing, and great looking vehicle from Acura (the current entire Acura lineup is pure ulgy to me. i love my RL but it's getting outdated and problems are beginning to surface. right now, i'm leaning heavily towards MB or Lexus. i've own a c-class and es300 in the past before so they won't be completely new to me.
07-16-2010, 03:32 PM
#20
Agreed. Makes me wonder what will Honda Japan have as a flagship now that the Legend will be gone. Perhaps they'll bring Acura over to Japan, and take that place? Yep, I think a new Acura flagship will be built in NA just for Acura, but I will miss Japanese built cars from Acura.
07-16-2010, 03:40 PM
#21
Go Big Blue!
^^ That would be the last thing that concerns me. I have 4 Acura's in my driveway; a japan built 2007 RL, a canadian build 2008 MDX and two american built TL's (09 and 10). The MDX has given me the most trouble. In fact, it's been like owning a circa 90's american car. The RL has had a few minor issues with electronics. The two TL's have been rock solid, not even a squeak let alone a true problem. What does that mean? Not sure, but I think Americans can turn screws just as well as the Japanese worker. That's never where the issue was with the bad American cars of the 80's and 90's
07-16-2010, 04:43 PM
#22
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If you're not moving forward you're moving backwards. Sales of MB and BMW have been surging (Audi, too) so there is obviously a big demand for Tier 1 brands. Problem for Acura as I see it is that they have been in an identity crisis since 2007 or so when there was no CL replacement, RSX replacement, or NSX replacement. Then they struggled with re-branding with those horrible grilles. I think they've lost about 3-4 years with all of this B.S. and for a consumer that is an eternity.
It's funny, I had a customer today (BMW owner) who asked where I was before MB I said Acura. She said that seemed like a completely different market... I said not really Acura is a luxury brand she said: "Really I thought they were just Hondas." She didn't know Toyota owned Lexus though (her last car was a Lexus).
Honda has muddied the waters so much changing grilles, dropping car lines and not replacing them that I really don't see how they can re-gain the ground they gained when the 04 TL launched.
I think it will take minimum 5-7 years just to get back to the level they were in 2005 (I don't mean sales I mean momentum).
Honda is not providing Acura with consistency. Consistency, a stable brand, and fresh products. Some brands you look back 20 or 30 years and you can recognize them... Acura you just can't.
It's a shame because I think the best cars Acura ever made were the NSX, 6 Speed CL, and the 05/06/07 RL.
It's funny, I had a customer today (BMW owner) who asked where I was before MB I said Acura. She said that seemed like a completely different market... I said not really Acura is a luxury brand she said: "Really I thought they were just Hondas." She didn't know Toyota owned Lexus though (her last car was a Lexus).
Honda has muddied the waters so much changing grilles, dropping car lines and not replacing them that I really don't see how they can re-gain the ground they gained when the 04 TL launched.
I think it will take minimum 5-7 years just to get back to the level they were in 2005 (I don't mean sales I mean momentum).
Honda is not providing Acura with consistency. Consistency, a stable brand, and fresh products. Some brands you look back 20 or 30 years and you can recognize them... Acura you just can't.
It's a shame because I think the best cars Acura ever made were the NSX, 6 Speed CL, and the 05/06/07 RL.
yes I can't imagine someone wanting to open an Acura dealership. It's been years now since they've done anything substantial with the product: engines, technology ,etc. However, you seem to be interpreting this news as Honda is retreating further with the brand. Although that is one possibility. I'm not sure we can conclude that yet.
Last edited by CL6; 07-16-2010 at 04:46 PM.
07-16-2010, 04:57 PM
#23
Go Big Blue!
If you're not moving forward you're moving backwards. Sales of MB and BMW have been surging (Audi, too) so there is obviously a big demand for Tier 1 brands. Problem for Acura as I see it is that they have been in an identity crisis since 2007 or so when there was no CL replacement, RSX replacement, or NSX replacement. Then they struggled with re-branding with those horrible grilles. I think they've lost about 3-4 years with all of this B.S. and for a consumer that is an eternity.
It's funny, I had a customer today (BMW owner) who asked where I was before MB I said Acura. She said that seemed like a completely different market... I said not really Acura is a luxury brand she said: "Really I thought they were just Hondas." She didn't know Toyota owned Lexus though (her last car was a Lexus).
Honda has muddied the waters so much changing grilles, dropping car lines and not replacing them that I really don't see how they can re-gain the ground they gained when the 04 TL launched.
I think it will take minimum 5-7 years just to get back to the level they were in 2005 (I don't mean sales I mean momentum).
Honda is not providing Acura with consistency. Consistency, a stable brand, and fresh products. Some brands you look back 20 or 30 years and you can recognize them... Acura you just can't.
It's a shame because I think the best cars Acura ever made were the NSX, 6 Speed CL, and the 05/06/07 RL.
It's funny, I had a customer today (BMW owner) who asked where I was before MB I said Acura. She said that seemed like a completely different market... I said not really Acura is a luxury brand she said: "Really I thought they were just Hondas." She didn't know Toyota owned Lexus though (her last car was a Lexus).
Honda has muddied the waters so much changing grilles, dropping car lines and not replacing them that I really don't see how they can re-gain the ground they gained when the 04 TL launched.
I think it will take minimum 5-7 years just to get back to the level they were in 2005 (I don't mean sales I mean momentum).
Honda is not providing Acura with consistency. Consistency, a stable brand, and fresh products. Some brands you look back 20 or 30 years and you can recognize them... Acura you just can't.
It's a shame because I think the best cars Acura ever made were the NSX, 6 Speed CL, and the 05/06/07 RL.
Having said that, I still think Acura offers one of the best values for the upscale market (evidenced by the fact that 4 of the 5 cars in my driveway are Acura's). But that's not necessarily a compliment. Buying a car is a very emotional purchase for most. Honda doesn't get that evidently or doesn't care. Honestly, do you think most of the people you sell a C300 too wouldn't be just as satisfied in a TSX? Do they really need to pay the premium for the superior handling of a BMW or an MB? Most are probably women who are driving to the supermarket with it. They are buying it for how it makes them feel rather than a cold hard business decision. Congrats to MB for creating that image and capitalizing on it. Honda needs to learn that and stop building Acura's like they are utlitarian vehicles like an Accord or Camry.
07-16-2010, 06:14 PM
#24
My only car is a Bus
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You do get people who buy a Benz due to the cachet of owning one but the current C is a very good car in its own right whereas the previous generation was, let's face it, the cheapest Mercedes available. People buy Rolex for a lot of reasons but owning a cutting edge timepiece isn't one of them.
The C Class has reasons why it is more than a TSX... the thickness of the metal, the sculpted underbody, the triple hood latches, etc. It's not just "it's a Benz."
People would be just as happy driving a multitude of similar cars but I bet most of us generally use the same kind of soap, drink the same kind of beer, etc. You just fall into a habit and if you got into Benz when the leases were $400 per month you just kind of stay there.
Honda let the previous gen Accord drift into nothingness just like they did the Civic. Current gen Civic/Accord are very nice. I think Honda cannot keep their eye on Acura and Honda and do both well... it's like they switch off between each.
Acuras are excellent values but mainly because of image. My CL was a fantastic car... I think it was better than most cars I've driven at work since but few people agreed.
MB has been working on their image and products since they invented the car over 110 years so it wasn't an overnight thing. That takes commitment and dedication. I think Acura still needs to prove itself in this regard, even if their products shine in certain respects.
The C Class has reasons why it is more than a TSX... the thickness of the metal, the sculpted underbody, the triple hood latches, etc. It's not just "it's a Benz."
People would be just as happy driving a multitude of similar cars but I bet most of us generally use the same kind of soap, drink the same kind of beer, etc. You just fall into a habit and if you got into Benz when the leases were $400 per month you just kind of stay there.
Honda let the previous gen Accord drift into nothingness just like they did the Civic. Current gen Civic/Accord are very nice. I think Honda cannot keep their eye on Acura and Honda and do both well... it's like they switch off between each.
Acuras are excellent values but mainly because of image. My CL was a fantastic car... I think it was better than most cars I've driven at work since but few people agreed.
MB has been working on their image and products since they invented the car over 110 years so it wasn't an overnight thing. That takes commitment and dedication. I think Acura still needs to prove itself in this regard, even if their products shine in certain respects.
07-16-2010, 06:32 PM
#25
Go Big Blue!
Your right CL6, MB has stepped it up in the last 5 years and improved the product and reliability. That coupled with a well deserved reputation and excellent dealer experience, and you have a brand that can command more for their cars than Acura can for the same features.
The lineups price spread is so critical. MB knows that which is one of the reasons they keep their lower end products out of the US market. Which brings us back to Acura and why eliminating the RL slot would be a terrible decision. I just can't believe they are planning to do it but I've been wrong before with this company. If they want to build their brand cache they need to add an S class product NOT eliminate their E. What would Lexus be without the LS? They'd be Infiniti or Acura. We know most people don't buy cars like they buy refrigerators. It's more like buying clothes because theres a statement to be made about who you are when you are out and about. I thnk reducing the lineup to 2 sedans with the TL being the top of the line would be terrible for the brand.
The lineups price spread is so critical. MB knows that which is one of the reasons they keep their lower end products out of the US market. Which brings us back to Acura and why eliminating the RL slot would be a terrible decision. I just can't believe they are planning to do it but I've been wrong before with this company. If they want to build their brand cache they need to add an S class product NOT eliminate their E. What would Lexus be without the LS? They'd be Infiniti or Acura. We know most people don't buy cars like they buy refrigerators. It's more like buying clothes because theres a statement to be made about who you are when you are out and about. I thnk reducing the lineup to 2 sedans with the TL being the top of the line would be terrible for the brand.
07-16-2010, 07:03 PM
#26
Intermediate
07-16-2010, 07:28 PM
#27
My only car is a Bus
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MB will be forced to bring the A Class and 4 cylinders back into the US market b/c of CAFE standards. Rest assured, there will be less expensive models coming over in the near future.
That report about the RL not being killed is interesting but it does say:
"Though we clearly cautioned readers that the report was shaky at best, there was good reason to think the report could eventually prove true."
They bring up the NSX which was killed, V8 which was killed, Tier 1 which was killed, and RWD which was killed.
I hope reports of the RLs demise are wrong but sometimes it's best to put the truth out, deny, then change your mind b/c they have already planted the seed that it will die.
That report about the RL not being killed is interesting but it does say:
"Though we clearly cautioned readers that the report was shaky at best, there was good reason to think the report could eventually prove true."
They bring up the NSX which was killed, V8 which was killed, Tier 1 which was killed, and RWD which was killed.
I hope reports of the RLs demise are wrong but sometimes it's best to put the truth out, deny, then change your mind b/c they have already planted the seed that it will die.
07-17-2010, 06:36 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
Not to re-hash the same old arguments, but if you slapped a BMW or MB emblem on the front of the 05-08 RL, the auto mags would have gone crazy for it.
07-17-2010, 07:37 AM
#30
to each its own but do you really need to post your son's pic on every thread? btw. Nice TL.
07-17-2010, 08:06 AM
#31
Go Big Blue!
The thing I struggle with more than that question is this; If people really want a driver's car and think owning a car is all about handling, power/weight ratio, chasis weight distribution, latest engine and tranny improvements, etc., then I don't know why you'd buy an Acura anyway. You are frustrating yourself unnecessarily as their are brands that cater to those priorities. Of course you will pay more for the car but that's how the equation works when it comes to cars. A lot of money needs to go into improving handling and power even a small percentage. If you want/need that small improvement and are willing to pay for it then go buy a Porsche or BMW
07-17-2010, 08:33 AM
#33
Go Big Blue!
You could be right. Can't say with authority. But I would assume it is probably based in some part on the Accord because it would only make sense. This is logical, not really a negative, and actually not unique to Honda. Everyone does it because it makes business sense. You don't start from scratch on every model. What percentage of parts, designs, etc, do you share varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model. Hey, even the new Rolls Royce Ghost is using a BMW drive system. I'm sure that annoys the guy paying $250k for his Ghost, but thats how they make the car not cost $300k. Does it make it any less worthy? That was really my point.
07-17-2010, 11:56 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
You could be right. Can't say with authority. But I would assume it is probably based in some part on the Accord because it would only make sense. This is logical, not really a negative, and actually not unique to Honda. Everyone does it because it makes business sense. You don't start from scratch on every model. What percentage of parts, designs, etc, do you share varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model. Hey, even the new Rolls Royce Ghost is using a BMW drive system. I'm sure that annoys the guy paying $250k for his Ghost, but thats how they make the car not cost $300k. Does it make it any less worthy? That was really my point.
07-17-2010, 10:58 PM
#36
07-18-2010, 01:20 PM
#38
Senior Moderator
No more Legend? I have to admit that the initial reports put the scare in me, too....until Acura USA said something.Does this mean the RL will be.....renamed......Legend?
Still waiting for the new RL, even without V8/RWD.
07-18-2010, 05:47 PM
#40
05 slate grey e500 AMG sp
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