andysinnh

I know this isn't apples and apples, but here's a reason why the AWD (even though not optimum) just isn't the same. My car is a '15 RDX AWD. My son's cr is a '14 Accord 4-cyl FWD. They both have the same identical snow tires, both have TC. Aside from the slight difference in ground clearance and horsepower, they map similarly to your comparison that "I should have just gotten the FWD and pocketed the $$"....

In the same winter conditions, there is a significant difference between the two. The FWD Accord is very happy to spin the front wheels when you give it the gas, and while the TC does kick in, you can certainly feel that it's not giving you a strong level of control. Same situation in the RDX and you can feel that extra benefit of the rear wheel traction, as the front wheel "happiness" of spinning just isn't there to the extent it is in the FWD model. And while some feel that the gas mileage impact of having that AWD hardware is a negative, it does add some rear bias to the weight distribution of the vehicle, and that helps as well. It's just got a better balance - and it shows up in traction (and braking as well).

Finally, the statement about AWD being able to make the best of the situation no matter what tires on the car - just doesn't add up. All-season tires these days are a joke. Go back to the 80's and look at the all-seasons they did back then. Lots more crossing treads and siping that actually did have an all-season capability. These supposed all-season tires these days are nothing more than glorified summer tires with a bit of serration to the edges of the tread blocks. Heck - the Primacy MXM4's don't even have any siping at all!

But don't get me wrong - I know that with the right tires you can do a whole lot. Best example is the wife's '82 Z28 from back in '82. Cross-fire injection with automatic and an open rear diff. The goodyear Eagle GT's couldn't get out of their own way even if snow was in the forecast. Back then the model was snow tires on the drive wheels only. So to save the alloys, I got 4 steel wheels and put a set of GoodYear F32 snow tires on the rear and some all-season tires on the front (with baby moon hubcaps - it was a sight to behold). With that setup I could actually get up hills when I needed to. Granted it was still a sled - but a usable sled - back before traction control was even an option on most cars.

So I get it - you can make a car do better with the right tires. But you hit the threshold pretty quick, and even a non-optimum AWD system is better than the FWD variant, IMHO....

andy

RDX-Rick

The current distribution (2016 model) is now 60-40, but that is up from 75-25 in the 2015 model. I'm not sure having an additional 10% would make a significant difference.

The OP never specified which model year he owns, or where he lives. Only
Could be he has an earlier model he just purchased recently, or was living in a area that had not received significant snowfall prior to the recent storms on the east coast.

RDX10

Its the principal of the matter. Not the actual numbers. Will 10% make a difference? Maybe. But why is their system only able to send 40% back (and 25% before, really? What the actual heck is the point of having awd then?). Everyone else can send 50+ plus to the rear. The op mentioned both where he lived and that he owned a 2016 with oem wheels with 12k on them.

Take a look at some youtube videos with the crv, a swedish company did a review on the awd system. It literally sent ZERO power to the rear, despite having hondas real time awd system.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jkiv-bWbLIo

Here you go.

PeteZ28

Actually, I did, I just forgot to include that in my first post...

TacoBello

What, really? So people are paying extra for a system that ends up doing nothing?

ceb

AWD is certainly helpful for things like going up hills but it won't do anything for turning or stopping.

Back in the early 90's I had a GMC Typhoon (with the OE Firestone Firehawk Summer performance tires), a 89 Corvette (with cheap winter tires) and an 86 Jaguar XJ12-HE with all season Pirellis.

During an ice storm, the Typhoon wouldn't get out of its own way (literally - it couldn't get out of the apt parking lot. The Corvette got me to work.

In February of 92, I was driving my Jag from the UK to my parent's house in Bavaria. After getting off the ferry in Zebrugge (Belgium) I got a speeding ticket. About a half hour later, I crossed a hill and hit a wall of snow. The remaining 7 hours was going through blizzard like conditions. What fun.

The bottom line is that tires make all the difference.

mrgold35

Makes you wonder if all this new tech is necessary? Our parents/grand-parents seemed to do just fine with bias ply tires, no power steering, and 4 wheel drum brakes for decades in the same types of winter storms? Tires help; but, we might have to some blame on the driver's skill level also.

012TL-GLM

Understand the OP's disappointment but there isn't one 4 wheel system out there that's going to get you out of every situation. If ice is under the tires you're generally SOL, regardless of vehicle/tire combo. Tires are the most important element of safe driving, and the Michelin's that came stock on our '16 RDX suck in snow. Not even that great in rain.

hand-filer

Sort of. Pre-2016 AWD was slightly better than nothing and the 2016 model is slightly better than next to nothing.

hand-filer

This is true but they should have provided a 50-50 locking function like most other manufacturers have. They should have also made the unit a little beefier.
The current system goes into shutdown mode as soon as it senses the slightest bit of load. It was sized for the CRV and utilized in the RDX more as a cost saving afterthought, hence the unequal biasing front to rear to save the unit from going into thermonuclear meltdown.

ceb

You're right, back in 1937 there were 29 fatalities for every 100k inhabitants. In 2015 it was 10. In total numbers we've dropped from 37k fatalities to 32k even though the population more than doubled and the number of drivers more than quadrupled.

You might be able to survive with summer tires during a blizzard but it ain't the right way of doing things.

nihar15

well...reading your post makes me feel not so bad. Have been annoyed with myself since yesterday since I chose to get a FWD and the thing got stuck in snow yesterday. The neighbors had to come and get me out. ! I am in central Jersey and our great town does a great job of cleaning streets Cleared up the driveway but it got stuck in the street while backing up and trying to move forward. The front wheels kept spinning, turned off the traction control and RPM's would jump to 5K with smell of burning rubber. Neighbors 2007 forester sailed through...its a beauty to watch the forester in snow, all 4 wheels dancing independently..spin-stop-spin-stop and out.

My problem with snow tires is how do you justify them in central jersey? This was the first snow of the season and hopefully the last. When am I supposed to put them on? Is it ok to drive with them during times when there is no snow? Will reducing the air pressure on tires help?

RDX10

Yes exactly, and as some other member has pointed out, it helps with weight distribution. Because you know, people buy these systems for weigh distribution, not to actually work.

Yes, yes, yes....and a little more yes. to these very very accurate posts! The system in your sorento works 10x better than this system. Designed by magna, one of the worlds best awd system manufacturers.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Wait so are you saying the RDX AWD is crappier than my 2005 CRV Real time awd? Cuz I got stuck in snow and just had to put in in R and D a few time and it popped right out.

Granted the F150 then went in first also go stuck and had to do the same, but he had a lot more clearance to get over the snow hump

RDX10

No, we are saying a front wheel drive car with snow tires is just as capable as an awd rdx with the same snow tires.

thephantom

Granted it's no SHAWD, but we had over 10 feet of snow last winter and I had no issues with OEM tires carving through the white stuff. Good luck!

CanWat

They are not meant just for snow. The correct term is winter tires and you can use them with no issues when the temperature is 7C/44F or below. They will provide you with better stopping distance in such temperature because of the softer rubber. Use them from October - April and you're essentially doubling the life of your stock tires, the only extra cost being the rims.

CanWat

Not entirely accurate. If the front tires get stuck in snow, the rears could push you through. I'd say they are close enough in capability with winter tires.

andysinnh

And I disagree because, while both are "capable", the AWD (even in the RDX) adds more capability and will be more effective in the winter. For me and for my family, this is an edge worth the additional investment (same logic as I use for getting winter tires on all vehicles in the family garage).

andy

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Ooo Really... hmmm hmmm

jason330i

so it seems it would be fair to say:


AWD & Winter tires > FWD & Winter tires >> AWD & All Season tires > FWD & All Season tires

Danny Boy

You made you point that the RDX system is inferior to everything else. I don`t think anyone can dispute that.

Keep in mind that snow tires are for both - getting you going as well as stopping in ice and snow. Why are you reluctant to spending $1000 for good braking in the winter?

RDX10

But that is the issue. The rear tires are not getting enough power or not engaging in the awd rdx's. You guys have to understand that I am AWD junkie. I only bought my 07 rdx because it had shawd. Without it, I probably would have went for a 2010 outlander gt with the s-awc system. This is why I am critical about a system that can only send 25-40% to the rear and offers no handling advantages. Go on youtube and search 2014 crv awd test done by a swedish company. Watch that review and get to back me.

Look to above comment on the other members post. I am an AWD junkie. I have only ever had awd cars and will NEVER buy a fwd or rwd car (unless it is a rwd weekend warrior saturn sky red line). The AWD systems on my cars have always been highly sophisticated. I had 4Xmotion in 3 touaregs, new generation X-Drive in my 05 X5, and now SH-AWD in my RDX. As someone said in the post above. The old system is slightly better than nothing, and the 2016+ is better than next to nothing.

Yeah really. How does this video have anything to do with my post? I said a fwd car on snows is just as capable as an awd rdx on snows. This was a video about an awd escape/kuga on summers vs a fwd kuga/escape on winters. Completely different car, completely different awd system, completely different argument of summers vs snows.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Keep watching Snow tires on 4x4 and snow tires on 2x4 big different. If you hate the car so much trade it in for something else. Cuz bitching about it won't make a difference at the end of the day you are still stuck with your RDX

RDX10

Do you have a video review of the rdx with 2wd and snows vs 4wd and snows? Notice how acura never posted a rollers test with this rdx like they did with the mdx with shawd. I also don't own a 2013+ rdx, I own a 2007 with a true awd system. Furthermore, I am not "bitching", you post a video that has no relevance to my argument, I post a video that does, you then tell me I am bitching when you can't prove my point wrong.

Anyways, really not interested in getting into arguments about this. I think it is complete crap and I will leave it at that.

RDX-Rick

I think the only point being made is that there are better AWD systems on the market than the RDX has. I have also seen cars that have better sound systems than the RDX, and I have heard there are cars that have brighter headlights than the RDX with it's fancy LED lights. Oh, yeah, some cars have better quality leather than the RDX.

I think Acura should be ashamed of building such a lousy vehicle. Is anyone interested in joining me to start a class action suit against Acura for tricking us into buying the RDX without making us aware of all these problems.

Danny Boy

Give me a few weeks to test the RDX AWD system in real snow condition. I will let you know.

ceb

There is nothing wrong with the RDX - its demographic is quite happy with the AWD as installed. It is a very basic AWD system that is certainly better than FWD when things get slippery but will never replace a system like 4matic, quattro (even the Haldex version) or SH-AWD.

Sculldog3

do folks do research before spending 40k? I knew the RDX was less capable then the Subaru system, audi's, jeeps when I researched the 2013 RDX. I didn't need that level of capability, RDX worked for me. I also knew day one that I'd run dedicated snows to provide me and mine is that extra margin of safety since I live in the snow belt, and clearly snow tires make a huge difference. If I couldn't swing the tires, I'd have gone non tech package, or fewer options. 3+ years in, plus the most snow ever recorded last yr in mass, no issues what so ever, system and tires perform as expected. Know your needs, plan accordingly. Rant over, flame away..... ��������

skabei

I don't think much amount of research could easily show that the RDX with AWD and default all-seasons that are brand new will easily get stuck in a few inches of snow. Most likely it's bad luck with the wheel placement and the position of the wheel but I'm as surprised as OP is.

BC01191980

Maybe you should all create a change.org petition to Acura asking for SH AWD and other things to make rdx better.

ceb

actually yes, a bit of research would have shown that the RDX AWD is more of FWD with RWD assist - but that isn't the fundamental issue here. The problem here is that the OP tried to tackle a job with the wrong tools.


No two storms are identical. I can easily say "my old Forester had no issues in past winters" but this storm wasn't like past storms - it was either worse or better, there was less snow or more snow, the temps were warmer or colder and so forth.


If the OP couldn't make it down his plowed driveway (and back into his garage) then the issue wasn't the driven wheels - it was tires. If the problem was tires then his Forester would have had the same issues with the all seasons.


We have been conditioned to believe that AWD is the best thing since sliced bread for inclement weather - it isn't. That's why the cars in ditches are mostly SUVs and RWD BMWs with summer tires.


Unless the OP's driveway goes uphill in both directions (I'm going to assume it slopes downward towards the street) then I see no reason why he got stuck going out. If it slopes upward, then he shouldn't have had issues getting back in.


Everyone has had an "Ah-ha" moment before they bought snow tires. Maybe this was that moment for the OP and he'll love his RDX next snowfall.

skabei

I'm talking about his case in particular judging from his picture. I'm surprised that his RDX got stuck in that particular situation considering that it really wasn't that deep, at least from the picture. There's really no gaurantee that a given car without snow tires can or cannot get through a particular situation because each one is unique.

Yes, tires are the most paramount thing for winter driving regardless of drive train. For serious winter driving in wet and snow conditions, winter tires are a must and OP clearly knows that. I think this really shows that AWD itself is really not as helpful as people generally assume for winter driving unless perhaps it's a complicated setup like SH-AWD or X-Drive. Really, with winter tires, I feel that FWD is more than adequate for driving where I live in Ontario.

RDX-Rick

Exactly, I had a Jeep Cherokee that had both Command Trac and Select Trac (I could lock the center differential for a 50-50 torque split). I could drive through forest roads in knee deep snow with summer tires without a problem. The only time I got stuck was on level ground, in about one inch of mud on clay soil. I had mud thrown all over the exterior from spinning tires both forward and back. The only way I escaped was to place branches under the tires.

The other day I was able to get out of my driveway in 8" of snow in the RDX, but the wife couldn't get out in her Subaru ( with the famous symmetrical full-time all-wheel drive). The reason being is that she has a Subaru Legacy Limited with 225/50 tires. Despite having the highly rated Subaru, she couldn't get enough traction to break through the ice pack left by the plow at the end of the driveway. Heck, a 2WD Ford F150 with summer tires could have beaten the Subaru in these conditions.

The tread design of tires make a big difference. The OEM tires might work half decent in fluffy snow, but not wet slushy snow. Today's modern "WINTER" tires work great on ice and compacted snow, but in mud they don't do as well as the older style "SNOW" tires with the big tread blocks and large voids.

RDX10

This 100%. It should not have gotten stuck like that. No matter what. The OP says his rear left tire was stuck in a small hole type thing. Well the rears should have still kicked on.

I feel like you are missing the argument. The argument is not about snow tires or no snow tires, or about this awd system being inferior to a true awd system. At least for me, I am trying to argue that the rear wheels are not even kicking on or are not getting enough power when they do kick on.

I posted the link to the crv video where they (tested what I am betting is the exact same system as the rdx) put the crv on rollers up a slight incline. Then you can early see that the rear tires do not kick on whatsoever. My argument is not saying that awd should get you off of a buttered plastic sheet with bald tires. Or up a pure ice hill. My argument is strictly that it feels like the AWD is not working at all when it should be. Just like that crv. That is what I suspect at least.

JACN

Probably a FWD version.

Completely contradicts what I'm seeing at 0:21 in this video:
^ real world testing in the snow, not just driving on rollers!

JACN

I've been saying this all along: AWD + Snow tires = WIN.


Oh and ... RDX10 =

nist7

People still believe the myth of AWD = snow conquering machine.

Proper AWD (which Acura's are FWD biased systems as OP pointed out and like CRV and other FWD-based systems) PLUS SNOW TIRES are the way to go.

FWD w/snow tires > AWD w/all-season(stock) tires.

Get snow tires - solve your problems. AWD does not magically make the car handle like its on rails on snow.

You can send all the power to the rear or the front or left or right or lock the diff all you want....the rubber meets the road/driveway is where it will count and if you aint got right tires you probably not going anywhere....

neoshi

It's not always practical to get snow tires, especially if you're coming from a non-snowy city and just traveling up for a weekend ski/snowboard trip. The commute then is mostly dry highway and you end up wearing out the tires very quickly from just the highway commute. That and the noise will probably drive you nuts.

That being said, I am also a Forester driver. Read about the RDX's AWD system change and decided to get an MDX instead. BUT, like everyone else said, tires actually do matter quite a lot in adverse conditions, so a decent set of all seasons (if snows are not practical like I mentioned) would help immensely. They should actually be your foundation rather than the AWD system. Afterall, if your AWD system senses loss of traction and tries to apply more torque in that corner to regain the traction, a bad tire will leave you stuck still.

Acuras AWD systems are all siding toward reactionary when compared to a Subaru or an Audi. And these are all 2WD platforms to begin with, so you need to make some smart calls on compromises to achieve a safety level you can be comfortable with.

RDX10

And JACN= still hasn't proven my point wrong.