andysinnh

In previous posts, I've stated how I always run my vehicles (even AWD) with a set of dedicated Nokian snow tires. True for the wife's '12 TL SH-AWD (aka snow tank), true for my previous '13 MDX SH-AWD, and true for my current '15 RDX AWD. I leased the RDX 2 years ago, and ran the snow tire setup all last winter, and was fairly pleased. The facts are that last winter was not much of a winter here in NH, and for those times we did have snow, it did well. This winter, to this point, has also been pretty painless, and the vehicle and tire combo on the RDX was doing it's job.

Until today.

For those not in the northeast, we're finally having a decent snow event, with the total of 18" and counting as of the writing of this post. Earlier in the day, an urgent issue with one of our dogs had my wife and I drive the RDX to the vet. We had about 6" of snow on the ground, on unplowed rural roads with a fair amount of hills and curves. Let's just say that on this first true test of the AWD system on the RDX, I was shocked at how ineffective it is. Cornering was OK, and slowing and downhill was acceptable. But up hills made me yearn for either a FWD version of the vehicle, or (more significantly) the SH-AWD system that I grew to love in the other vehicles.

You can feel the rear tires start to engage when going up a hill in this deep snow, but it seemed to make the vehicle less stable as the side-to-side feeling was amplified as the rear wheels did their thing (whatever "that thing" is). What's frustrating is that even the AWD system in the two Pilots we had ('04, '06) had a better feeling of stability than this RDX did. Maybe it's the lesser bias to the rear wheels that's the issue. And maybe the '16+ RDX is better. But I'll have to agree with others' comments that the AWD system is pretty disappointing, and it has me considering whether I can afford to jump into an MDX if, for nothing else, to get me back into the SH-AWD fold. THAT system is the best I've ever driven.......

andy

kareshi

Did you try in S mode?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Andy, when you leased the new RDX, it came with a lesser SHAWD system than your previous and current SHAWD's.
it's a pretty known fact and contributes to the price point of the vehicle.

mrgold35

My wish for Acura would to either put the +17 Pilot version of awd (minus the sh programming version) or just go back to sh-awd with the 3rd Gen RDX. My 08 RDX has +136,000 miles and I want to wait and see if the 3rd Gen RDX will get back to its roots or I have to go for a 2nd MDX in the stable with sh-awd instead.

andysinnh

Yup - completely understood that - was one of the tradeoffs in order to get something a bit smaller with tech, etc that would fit into my target price point. Up until yesterday I hadn't regretted that tradeoff. But to observe what I did yesterday - and find the AWD behavior even worse than my previous Pilots' handling - was something I didn't really expect. Caveat emptor for sure.

andy

YeuEmMaiMai

AWD on RDX is not like SHAWD or SUBARU AWD... it is a part time use system that only engages when it detects a certain amount of wheel slip and will disengage when it is gone. For day to day driving on roads where intersections are sloppy it is fine... start getting into the deep stuff and you are done, it will not unstick you if you get stuck and it will not go through deep stuff well either. I drove one back in 2014 when we got about a foot and it did ok.... but given a choice between it and an Outback... the Subaru won hands down.

andysinnh

Agreed - the Subaru and SH-AWD variants are by far the best. I remember looking at a 2005 Saab 9-2x and was amazed at the snow traction, although the turbo was a killer insurance-wise for adding the 17 year old kid who would driveshare with me, but that's another story...). Anyway, having owned a couple of mid-00 Pilots I was actually pretty happy with their performance, but am disappointed that the RDX was even below that level of traction. Oh well, live and learn. In the final year of the RDX lease now and will likely swap to something different in the not too distant future. Unlike the wife's '12 TL SH-AWD Tech that we bought at the end of the lease (she LOVES that car), this won't happen with the RDX......

andy

RDX10

The system in your pilots was I-VTM4. It was capable of sending 50% of power to the rear and from what I read (if it was correct) it could torque vector across the rear axle when stuck (but not like SH-AWD in corners) so for a part time system, I would consider that near the top for that type of system.

Acura's removal of SH-AWD is ridiculous. It's a cost cutting measure in an incredibly stupid place (among other measures) and makes no sense to go from offering it as standard, to then optional, to then not at all but offering it on the pilot and ridgeline.
Admittedly most people buying the 2G RDX will not even need SH-AWD but personally the RDX goes to 50K in canada and when I can get a WAY better AWD system in a 20K Subaru, we have a problem. I had Michellen X-ice2 wheels on my 1G and with
SH-AWD never felt safer and more capable in a vehicle.

cFoo

You nailed it. Marketing department have no brain, they make packaging decisions based on numbers on the table not what is logical for the region.

I am still holding on to my 1G because of the cheap AWD on the 2G. The pilot and mdx are both 2 big. I wish the dumb marketing folks would see how many sales they've lost because of poor packaging. But they will never see it because it's a lagging indicator.

kurtatx

Hate to burst your bubble, but most buyers don't care about packaging. By and large, the people that buy cars don't know the difference between SH-AWD and the RDX AWD system.

Doobiewah

True Dat!

andysinnh

Right - it's likely only a small handful who have experienced SH-AWD would notice the issues - like me. The old "once you have SH-AWD you can never go back" type of logic. And likely only really relevant to those of us in the snow belt.....

kurtatx

The "AWD in the snow" is kind of overrated in my book because

1. Tires are more effective than an AWD system in real life snow conditions (particularly if you're comparing FWD and AWD)
2. SH-AWD is a performance AWD system. Despite living in Texas, I should be able to use the system to its fullest in many situations

andysinnh

I completely agree that tires make the difference - have run sets of 4 snows on every vehicle my family has owned for over 4 decades. But let me be clear, that (at least in the area I live) AWD makes all the difference when the weather turns to garbage. Even a good set of studded Nokian snows on a FWD vehicle hits its limit pretty quickly. But not AWD systems are created equal.

Yes, the SH-AWD is a "performance" AWD system (the TL commercial about draining the blood from your eyeballs drove that point home). But the side-effect is an EXTREMELY effective snow system, that's hard to explain unless you drive different systems back-to-back.....

YeuEmMaiMai

You need to come up north and tell us all again how AWD is useless. The Subaru on all seasons will go just fine through snow. I have no storage place for winter tires so I have to do with what I got and that is why I own two Subaru Legacies with AWD. The single most important factor is NOT over driving the car outside of tires that are not worn out. Far too many people over drive conditions and that is what gets them into the doodoo quickly.

one of the most basic advantages of AWD (non FWD based slip and grip) is the car does not slide around side to side when trying to get traction. the car moves in a SRAIGHT line and is very predictable in how the car responds.

RDX10

This is the issue with Acura as a whole, they don't know what they are doing. They have this world class AWD system and yet they turn around and put the shittiest part time awd system I have ever seen on a 50K car. No thank you.

Unfortunately he's right. If people did care, the 2G would have sold worse and the 1G better.

Thank you! and well said, the false dichotomy always created by people who don't care for AWD or don't think it's important is that they forget you can put winter tires on an AWD car and that it is necessary in some parts of the world. Certainly where I live it is near impossible to get by on FWD alone (possible, but dangerous IMHO) even with winter tires. A month ago I had my MDX in for service and they gave me a ILX (gross) as a loaner, I have never felt so unsafe in my life. I could not wait to get back into my sh-awd MDX even with its' all season tires. The ILX could not gain traction for its' life.

You are ignoring the fact that SH-AWD is a performance AWD system that just so happens to drive amazingly in snow as well. You also oversimplify it, I would rather a true AWD car with all seasons over a FWD with snows any day of the week and ESPECIALLY in deep snow driving.

Seriously, thank you for this post and very well said. I live in Alberta (iirc you are from toronto) and I can't/will not get by on FWD. I need a AWD vehicle because it can get very bad here very fast and FWD with snows will not cut it. The other benefit of a full time AWD system is as you mentioned, in corners it will also send power to the back preventing a the rear from slipping out and therefore is more predictable vs the push/understeer with fwd.

kurtatx

I lived in Chicago for 24 years. Tires are a much bigger factor in snow driving.

Skidoor

I tend to side with Kurtatx on this. Take braking for example, during which AWD is completely out of the picture... mostly the same story with cornering ... AWD does not reduce the possibility that you will lose control at 50 MPH on some invisible black ice.
So when all scenarios and conditions are included in your general analysis, tire type is more important than having AWD. Also, I NEVER got stuck in deep snow with a 2WD vehicle when I had good knobby winter tires.

RDX10

BOOM!!!!


There goes my argument for AWD and all seasons vs 2wd and winters. However I maintain that the best combo is AWD and winters haha.

Skidoor

To be fair, if I had to choose between FWD + snow tires and AWD with all-seasons, I would have a very hard time deciding.

andysinnh

I agree 100 percent. Earlier it was said that in Chicago that tires are more important than AWD. And having family there and driven there, I agree. But there's a difference between NH vs Chicago - and that's hills, shade/trees, and the fact that some of this silly white stuff stays all winter. When you're trying to get up a 15% incline and you're stopped, no way FWD will get you going, even with a set of studded Nokian Hakka 8's on all 4 corners. That is where AWD - and more importantly SH-AWD - becomes a necessity.

My driving roots started in the mid 70's with all RWD vehicles - v6 Mustang, Impala, 79 Cutlass (first new car). All were worthless without something in the rear to grip, and a good pair of Firestone Town and Country (or the "new" Goodyear F32) snow tires would get you going. But there were limitations. When the first FWD's came out (my first was an 85 Cutlass Ciera) it was much better, and I tried using all-seasons. But the braking killed it, so it was in the late 80's that I started with 4 snow tires - just about the time Tire Rack started to really push the concept. As I've gotten "older" and had more disposable cash, I've stuck with AWD as much as possible, and try to get a set of Nokian snows on dedicated wheels on all 4 corners. Never a question, part of the cost of a vehicle changeover. I've never looked back....

andy

Comfy

The best comment yet .....

kareshi

The AWD vs snow tire discussion is unnecessary. It's like discussing human being is better to eat apple than an orange. If you can choose between FWD + snow tires and AWD + snow tires and if they cost the same, which one would you choose?

kurtatx

Depends on the AWD system, honestly. I would pick a FWD CR-V. I would do SH-AWD 100% of the time over the FWD, but I would do that in Texas, too. AWD for me isn't a big factor in snow driving. It is, however, a big factor in driving experience, ESPECIALLY when a number of the competitors are RWD.

YeuEmMaiMai

You need to go further north.... Where I live snow falls by the foot and I have yet to be let down by the Subarus that I own. I typically travel to and from work in the early hours before stuff gets plowed... and their ability to go through snow is pretty much the stuff of legends. 2FT of snow in the alley? no problem, car goes right through it... Here is a dude with a Forrester... plowing his driveway lol


Not over driving the car is key... snow tires or not.

Comfy

And this video shows that tires are more important than AWD system. Clearly the tires of the Toyota were spinning but without traction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pls...=474.439543181

Skidoor

The music in that video made me want to kill myself.

musty hustla

I thought Acura would have offered SH-AWD in the RDX by now. What is the rear bias on the current RDX?

RDX10

The RDX HAD SH-AWD from 2007-2012, then Acura got stupid, greedy, and cost cutting-crazy and took it out. The 2013-current RDX has zero rear bias however the 2013-2015 model can send a max of 25% of power to the rear and the 2016-present can send a max of 45% but only in short (useless) bursts. It is nothing like SH-AWD that was proactive. It's 100% reactive.

Carbon2008RDX

The available RDX All-Wheel Drive (AWD) system is designed to help maximize the use of available traction in both dry and slippery conditions, while minimizing system-wide friction and power loss to help optimize fuel efficiency.
In normal cruising, the system operates as an efficient FWD vehicle with 100% of engine torque being directed to the front wheel

• During moderate acceleration or when front wheel slip is detected in dry conditions, up to 40% of engine torque is transferred to the rear wheels.
• On a wet or slippery surface, wheel slippage will cause a reduction in engine output to the front wheels possibly to a point where torque is distributed 50/50 between the front and rear wheels.

Systemic efficiencies allow the AWD model to have a combined EPA fuel economy rating of only one mile per gallon below the front-wheel drive model.AWD with Intelligent Control
The RDX employs a sophisticated yet lightweight, compact and efficient all-wheel-drive system called AWD with Intelligent Control, which provides a high degree of four-wheel-drive sophistication on paved and dirt roads as well as in inclement conditions such as rain or snow. Operation of the AWD system is completely automatic and is virtually transparent to the driver.

The capabilities of the AWD system are prioritized to support high fuel efficiency and all-around good drivability. AWD with Intelligent Control can operate at all speeds when needed, but when torque transfer to the rear wheels is not required (such as when cruising), drive to the rear wheels is decoupled for reduced drag. However, when accelerating from a stop, AWD with Intelligent Control sends power to the rear wheels while constantly communicating with Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) and the new Motion-Adaptive Electric Power Steering (EPS) to detect any traction issues.

The major components of the AWD system consist of a conventional front-wheel-drive system, a compact transfer case that distributes torque to a driveshaft running the length of the vehicle, a rear differential, a new electronically-controlled hydraulic pump, a multi-plate clutch, and left and right rear axles.

For AWD with Intelligent Control, a multi-plate clutch (similar to the clutches used in an automatic transmission) is used to engage the driveshaft connected to the rear differential. The new AWD system uses an electric motor to drive a single hydraulic pump, which operates the clutch. The electric motor is controlled by the Intelligent Control system, which means that the system can actively apportion power based on specific road conditions.

For example, when starting on snow the system sends power to the rear wheels right from the start, which minimizes the potential for front wheel spin. In cooperation with the new Hill Start Assist feature, AWD with Intelligent Control can also detect when the RDX is climbing a hill— and can send a greater amount of power to the rear wheels.

Torque splits of AWD with Intelligent Control
AWD with Intelligent Control distributes the driving force to front wheels and rear wheels automatically during acceleration and cornering, varying the torque split for optimum performance in response to driving conditions.

For 2016, the rear differential has been reengineered and the AWD system's control logic has been upgraded, allowing up to 40 percent of engine torque to be sent to the rear wheels, versus 25 percent on the 2015 model, resulting in more positive traction in slippery conditions.

During steady state cruising, 100-percent of the engine power is sent to the front wheels if sufficient traction is available.