sidemarker

this is an addition to this tread

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156682

well this afternoon i got a call from the dealership and i get nothing but bad news!

first they tell me the car is "knocking" and that the only to figure out whats going on is to open up the motor which translate to 10 labor hours @ 80 dollars an hour so a total of 800 bucks! just to see what went wrong!

Now i have an extended warranty BUT the service guy warns me that because i have a CAI they might void my warranty.

Now i know it will be difficult for them to prove that the intake caused any problems, i need to know what you guys think might be the problem

The service guy told me they have to open up the engine because they "believe the valves are bent" so now i am 100% sure i did not drive thru a puddle of water. So HYPOTHECTICALLY SPEAKING IF i did hydrolock my car what kind of damages would it create in the motor?

Now what I BELIEVE IS THE CULPRIT: THE TIMING BELT SLIPPED OFF! this could cause the valves and everything in the engine to be thrown off and possibly cause something to break??? right????

im scared like crazy cause if i have bad luck with the warranty people im going to be paying close to 5k for this shit!

So im trying to get a good idea what went wrong, something "I" created or just a "mechanical breakdown"

Also I need to know what happens IF motor oil loses its viscosity? And is there any way i could check without opening up the engine?

I know for a fact its not water

what i do believe is its either the timing belt slipping off or the motor oil breaking down?

the last time i changed my oil was approximately 3000 miles ago using royal purple synthetic 5w-20

my car has 62k miles

sidemarker

sidemarker

someone please explain to me what happens during these situations

1. car hydrolocks. what evidence is there to prove water was in the engine?
2. timing belt slips off or snaps off. what causes it to break prematurely?
3. bent valves. what could cause valves to break if the timing belt was in perfect working order?
4. motor oil guming up in the engine, what would happen to the engine?

thanks

sidemarker

Allout

Man that sucks. Here's my shot at answering your questions.

1. car hydrolocks. what evidence is there to prove water was in the engine? - I don't think Hydrolock will bend valves. Not sure what signs remain. Usually hydrolock will bust crank or Piston I think.
2. timing belt slips off or snaps off. what causes it to break prematurely? Bad timing belt tensioner or bad belt. It will still be off time when the engine is inspected. It won't jump timing and then jump back.
3. bent valves. what could cause valves to break if the timing belt was in perfect working order? Over rev the motor somehow? Or crank and cams got out of sequence somehow.
4. motor oil guming up in the engine, what would happen to the engine? Plugged oil passages - reduction in oiling efficiency. I think bearings would go before valvetrain.

Chief F1 Fan

bent valves can be caused by a timing belt malfunction. Under Magnusson-Moss Act it will have to be proved the mods caused the problem, not conjecture by some "technician."

sidemarker

well im doing more and more research on this and i think the problem is the timing belt

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...en+timing+belt

i know my car is an 02 but im going to have the dealership check out the water pump casing number just in case.

Has anyone replaced the timing belt before the scheduled interval 105k miles?

sidemarker

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

1. If you don't take out the spark plugs and let the water evaporate, then most of it is going to just stay in the engine and the oil pan. They can usually tell if the engine hydrolocked or not pretty easily.

2. Bad tensioner (there was a recall on our cars for this, I think?), perhaps a defective belt.

3. Assuming the timing belt was in perfect working order, hydrolocking could still bend the valves. Remember that bent valves happen when it's forced up or down against its sequence and hydrolock could do just that.

4. If the oil gummed up, then the engine would face a lot of friction, and inefficient lubrication. it could eventually lead to seizing due to lack of oil/lubrication.


Is the CAI the only engine modification you have? If that's the case (and you still have factory warranty), then you really shouldn't have to pay for anything. Whatever it is, it sounds more like a defect than something you did wrong, unless you neglected taking care of your car or abused the hell out of it, which I highly doubt. Keep us updated.

Chopsie

Rob, he has basic mods, CAI, CT Headers and Exhausts, Lowering springs.

Eric, Listen to Chief, and I do not see any of your mods causing a problem like this. Sounds more like an internal engine problem. I know you didn't do any kind of unusual punishment to your car, so it's going to be something else at fault, not YOU.

Check this out too for more info on Hydrolock
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ight=Hydrolock

sidemarker

andy thanks for the link

it really sucked couple nights ago. i thought it was the tranny acting up but the car just stalled out and luckily there was no heavy traffic and i wasnt on the highway or going on an incline.

that was some scary stuff and tomorrow im going to talk to the dealership to see what we can do

800 bucks is a lot of money just to see what the problem is.

Does anyone know what other problem it might be?

or do you think its the timing belt?

sidemarker

Chopsie

Welcome. I have no idea, but like I said, sounds internal to me.
You should try inspecting the timing belt first to see if you can spot any damage. If the Valves are bent, I would have to suspect that there was a problem in the timing system somewhere in order for them to get out of sequence.

sidemarker

also i want to add there is no way i hydrolocked my car. i havent driven the car in rain for 2 days and i put on 100 miles since it did rain and drove thru no floods or high water. its just that the dealership is assuming its a possiblity because of my cai. so when they do open it up i just want to be prepared to know what to say or look for if anything suspecious linking it to the engine hydrolocking.

sidemarker

sidemarker

well im going to assume it has to be the timing belt. i remember 3 months ago i heard a squeal come from my engine for a whole week but stopped

also last month the car acted all funny at a stop and all of sudden drive normal.

there has been an issue with the waterpump linking it to the timing belt but there is no way to prove that until they check the water pump casing.

there is a lot of evidence that i can think of that is pointing it to a broken or slipped timing belt.

sidemarker

Chopsie

Sounds like you may have a culprit then

mattg

you would know it if you hydrolocked your car. sounds to me whatever happened should be covered by the extended warranty.

good luck.

Zippee

Running up on the rev limiter with low load on the engine (low gear or just sitting) could cause bent valves. So could a really screwed up down shift (6 to 3 or 5 to 2) in a 6 speed.

What dealer are you using?

sidemarker

so how many people have had broken valves? and how much did it cost you for tear down and replacement?

sidemarker

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

I haven't had any, but I'm about to get them adjusted because I tend to rev a lot in neutral. :o I fuck around too much with my friends in traffic. I think most shops would charge 50-100 bucks to adjust them, and obviously a lot more if you had to replace them. My best guess would be about 300 bucks or so plus valves??

3.2cl-s

I had bent valves in my 00' GTS, i could hear constant knocking in the car and it would stall constantly.....the first time they covered it under warranty, the 2nd time they wanted me to pay for it........$5,000, of course i didn't have the money, so i took my car to acura to trade it in. I never told them that the car was messed up, and they drove it and didn't notice anything so i just traded it in for my Cl-s!

allmotor_2000

Water into the combustion chamber is not going to bend valves. Valves bend only when they
hit the piston. This happens if the timing belt slips or if the valves float. Valves will float at very
high RPMs because the valve spring isn't strong enough. Timing belt can slip if the tensioner is loose (there is a recall on our cars for this!!).

For broken valves you have ot remove both cylinder heads, replace the broken valves and do a valve-job... this would be about $1000-1500 for ours cars including parts I would assume. The valves are not going to bend unless you took it to 10000 RPM... so its the timing belt.

If the motor hydrolocks, you will crank the rings, pistons or the sleeve!!

Want me to talk to the dealer for you?

drewJ32A2

shouldve just taken it off before going to the dealership

Red-CL

Should've just talked to Allmotor.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

Do you have an extended warrenty? It's weird that the timing belt would slip or get messed up at 62K, but with this car anything is possible.
If it were hydrolock, which it definately doesn't sound like, your oil would be a brown foam from all the water mixed in with it.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

I was under the impression that when the motor hydrolocks, the water is not compressible and therefore prevents the pistons from moving up. This also puts stress on the valves, therefore damaging them.

Not trying to argue with you, just relaying what I've heard.

RaptorCLS

Allmotor

At least I know who to ask to tell the dealer a thing or two if they try to slip me some BS.

sidemarker

thanks guys for the feedback

again the only reason why i am asking about hydrolock is JUST IN CASE the dealership tells me "yeah your cai caused the problem therefore we cant cover it under warranty" this way i know how to prepare my arguement.

allmotor_2000 you will be my final hope! but hopefully this will all go smooth and the damn timing belt broke off so no one can aruge with me and the extended warranty company process my claim

does anyone know how to check the timing belt without doing an engine tear down?

sidemarker

car_lost

good luck bro. when are you going back to the dealer?

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Does your Vin # fall into the recall for the timing belt thing? Do a search on it. If so & the car broke because you never got notice of it, it's not your fault.

Zippee

Not likely to damage the valves, but broken pistons or bent rods are.

SILVER6NAVI

Lets break down the possibilities if the engine is knocking obviously its on its last legs. Hydrolock hence the name is when the engine locks up completely due to water in the engine. A broken oil pump could lead to knocking but usually causes the engine to lock up. The timing belt on the other hand tells the valves when to open and close. When the timing belt breakes all the valves get the signal to come down or open causing the pistons to crunch them. Pistons hitting valves = knocking. I speak from experience i used to have a prelude with the similar h2.2 v-tec engine and i killed its engine three times oil pump, timing belt and a damn broken fan relay. i know what a dying engine sounds like and through my experiences this sounds most like the timing belt if it was random fast breakdown. A slow death points to a waterpump, oil pump or cooling system problem. Was the car over heating? the repair will be costly and the acura dealership most likely dosent want to pay out of pocket for this. If they do give you a hard time about the cai take is off and take the car to another dealership if worse comes to worst. Best of luck to you i know exactly how you feel. no matter what it sounds like a warrenty claim so with 62000 miles sit back and enjoy that extended warrenty.

sidemarker

ok got an update

talked to the service manager and he tells me that they checked the timing belt and its in good working order!

they removed the front 3 sparkplugs and he tells me that one of the pistons is probably broken, there is metal and oil somewhere in the engine i forgot where he said. i think he said there was metal pieces and oil in the intake manifold area

so im pretty clueless with the problem. they are going to pull out one off the heads and let me know what they find

the service guy tells me i will most likely need a new motor!

i think im fucked!

sidemarker

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Unless they can prove the cause, & the extended warranty covers the parts in question, you shouldn't have to pay anything. If they try it, call Acura customer care. Sounds like a defect somewhere that caused more damage.

sidemarker

well if all goes smooth and the warranty people dont give too much hassle then yes everything SHOULD be covered under warranty

but there is a chance it might not and that is what im scared about

sidemarker

trancemission

hey sidemarker, first off I am sorry for what you are going through. I don't know if this will help but in reference to you CAI, I just extended my warranty and my original bumper to bumper is still in effect till Dec 04. I have talked to the people in the warranty department extensivly about to mods to my car because I've been very hesitant about doing any and whether or not the car would still be covered. They answered everytime with "as long as the company is factory approved". Comptech they say is factory approved. This is what they told me.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Comptech is not factory-approved. They either don't know what they are talking about or they flat out lied to you to sell a warranty package.

Companies like Mazdaspeed and Saleen are factory approved and warrantied. Comptech is not. It's more on a dealership-to-dealership basis. Some dealerships will sell, install and back up Comptech parts with warranty. Other dealerships will void your warranty pertaining to the part(s). For instance, if you have the Comptech sway bars, like I do, then dealerships like Acura of Troy will not honor your suspension warranty anymore. If anything in my suspension gives out, then I would be SOL.

However, looking at the mods he has, he shouldn't have any problems. Why? Because it sounds like an internal engine problem, and he doesn't have any mods in that area. If it indeed were an internal engine problem and they didn't honor his extended warranty just because he has I/H/E, then he would have a very good case against the dealership and/or the warranty company. Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act was established specifically for this reason, and for people like us so we don't get screwed.

darrinb

^^

when i had a squek coming from the suspension the dealer was bullshittin me about my car being lowered and that causing the problem

trancemission

Im just telling him what they told me. They said they would cover my car as long as I went with comptech. That isnt what sold me on the warranty. The fact that I havent paid for hardly anything when the cars been in for maintenance is what sold me. I'm new to the forum and I'm just giving him my thoughts. .

allmotor_2000

When there is water during the compression stroke, the valves are closed... you can't bend the valves when they are closed. During the exhaust stroke (or intake portion of the stroke), the valves are open so it wouldn't matter. Valve damage during hydrolocking probably occurs when a chunk of piston or something starts getting smooshed by the valves!

allmotor_2000

When the crank pulley is at TDC, the camshaft pulleys should line up - there are markings all over. On some honda motors here is a notch on the camshaft which lines up with a hole in the valve-train cover.

liloj

sucks man...and we only have 1 acura dealership close to us......hope everything works out

Chopsie

With our VTEC engine what is it we have two of ?
I know when the changeover occurs something switches ? I'm still all confuds about it. I know it's a timing variance, but... agh, forget it.

Good luck Eric, let us know how it comes out, sounds like a crazy senario they are talkin.

allmotor_2000

With VTEC you have a high lift/duration cam lobe which is used after a certain RPM. Oil pressure (controlled by the VTEC solenoid) pushes a pin which locks the center lobe (high profile 'vtec' lobe) to the rocker assembly. When not in 'vtec', the regular (or adjacent) cam lobes are used. On SOHC VTEC cars, the extra lobe is only available on the intake side while on the DOHC VTEC cars, it is available on the intake and exhaust side. On the new i-VTEC motors, you get cam timing adjustment in addition to variable valve lift - its like having an adjustable cam sprocket which adjusts as RPMs change!! I believe this is only active on the intake-side, but I may be mistaken. I am sure the new NSX is DOHC i-VTEC - meaning variable valve lift and cam timing on the intake and exhaust!!

If you open up an integra DOCH VTEC motor, you will see three rocker-arms/cylinder on each side. The center one is used only during VTEC - The cams also have three lobes/cylinder with the center one being the 'hi-cam' or 'vtec' profile.