Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

So first off let me mention that this isn't a problem due to Acura's poor quality so no ranting about that in this thread.

It's either a problem due to wear and tear, but I have a feeling it's just because I drive the car hard sometimes. Even still, I have approx 148K mi on my 6spd CL-S now, so even with the hard driving, it's been really good to me.

Last Friday I had the front and side motor mounts replaced. So I know that the problem (which I'll get to in a sec) isn't related to the motor mounts. I know it's not the rear motor mount, as they would have caught that in the motor mount diagnosis as well.

The problem:

When I'm in 2nd gear (I've only noticed this problem in 2nd gear) as I begin easing onto the throttle the car doesn't seem to do anything, and out of no where, I'll feel a surge or jerk and it "feels" like the car/engine is falling backward a little.

Same thing happens when I ease off the throttle at times. The car will feel like the car/engine falling forward.

Also, when i'm going uphill in 2nd gear and let off the throttle, it's even worse, the car lurches forward as if something is loose.

My thoughts:

1. Could be (after talking with a buddy) that it's my clutch that's worn out. I'm still on my first clutch so I've gotten some good life outta this clutch even for driving it hard at times. My buddy said that it could be that the friction plate on my clutch is worn and is causing the problem. I have noticed that when I change gears these days it feels like I have to let out the clutch a lot slower than I used to be able to.

2. Could it be a tranny issue in 2nd gear. But what? The next time I take it in for an oil change which is in about 850 miles, should I have them check the tranny fluid for metal shavings?

I really want to get this fixed, as I hate having anything on my car that isn't working properly. And because the last thing I want to do is have it break down on me. I'd rather always play it safe and do preventative repairs before it gets worse.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I don't know a lot about the 6-speeds, but I would guess it's the clutch as well. How much city driving do you do? You have a ton of miles on it, so maybe it's just due.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I do a lot of stop and go driving on the freeway due to traffic. Even still, when I told my buddy how many miles I had on my car, he thought I already had the clutch replaced so when I told him I was still on my first clutch he was like "wow, yea it's probably the clutch and friction plate going out".

I also just got off the phone with the dealership and asked them a few questions about it and they said that it is probably the clutch because of how many miles I have on it. I explained to him the problem and he agreed that it could be the friction plate. he was shocked when I told him how many miles I had on it too and said, "yea it's probably the clutch because of the high mileage"

I still do want to hear what other's have to say.


One other note, he mentioned that part of the repair on the clutch assembly is a resurfacing of the flywheel. What do you guys think of that? Is it worthwhile to just resurface it rather than replace it? How reliable are the UR lightweight flywheels? I may just install that if I feel it's worth it in the end rather than resurfacing the old one.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like the clutch slipping. 148K mile on a single stock clutch is GREAT wear. Replace & be happy. See my response on the flywheel in the other thread.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Thanks fuzzy. I did read your comments in the other thread.

I placed my order for the clutch set and a clutch bearing that the dealer needed.

As for the flywheel. The money I saved from the other parts, i put towards ordering a new flywheel. I'll take it with me when I get the clutch replaced. I'll just let them know that if it needs to be resurfaced, just use the new one I bought, otherwise if the one in there is fine, use that one. Worst case scenario is then if I re-use the old flywheel, I'll just sell the new one. Otherwise, I don't know if I trust them resurfacing the flywheel, hence the other reason I went ahead and bought a new one just in case. I've been going to this dealership for years. I do trust their work; however, lately I've been doing more homework rather than just taking their word for it.

Thanks for the info!

Glad that I found that coupon for acuraoemparts, saved another 5% off their already cheap prices:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187633

(use it while you can, expires April 1st)

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

oh yea forgot to mention, I didn't want to bother with the UR flywheel because it didn't state anywhere on the UR site that it was a dual mass unit. And after reading about allmotor's headaches I couldn't risk it especially since my car is a daily driver for me.

If I was only tracking it, I [possibly] wouldn't care. but it's too important to me, and stock reliability is more important that modding at this point for me.

GreenMonster

Sounds like the clutch is slipping, and while you could probably get some more miles out of it, you might as well get it fixed on your own terms instead of waiting for the clutch to go out completely (like when you're 100's of miles away from home).

There's an old trick to check the clutch...

I don't know if this will work or not, as I think you want to put the tranny in the highest forward gear. This was probably written ages ago when 4th was the highest gear on most cars (pre 1980's). I don't think you can put a CL into 6th when stopped, but I haven't tried 5th or 4th on my CL.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

^^ yea, on the 6spd version, you can't put it into 5th or 6th from a stop at all.

In any case. I'm replacing the clutch anyway. You're right, the last thing I want is for my car to break down on me when I'm away from home, even if it is just at work, or running errands. I've already gotten way more than what most people get out their clutches so a few extra thousand miles at this point isn't a loss for me.

But I will be hoping to install my comptech headers before I install the new clutch so I don't have to worry about abusing it to try out the headers

In fact, we're suppose to go to a wedding in two weeks in the San Luis Obisbo area and I'd hate for it to die when I'm that far away from home.


The only odd thing about all of this is, that the problem when I'm already in gear is worse than the actual problems with engaging the gear. Aside from having the let out the clutch slower than I used to be able to, it isn't that bad. The lurch/surge when in gear seems to be much worse. I wish I had known that was a friction plate issue a lot sooner. Wouldn't have caused me as much worry. But you learn something new everyday. At least now I know a little bit more about it.

Allout

I think it's the clutch too. And you are doing the right thing being proactive replacing it before it fully craps out. Many of the flywheels will have hot spots on them so it's probably a good chance that you'll replace that also. While they're in there, make sure you have them replace the rear main seal on the motor and the front input shaft seal on the gearbox. They're minor low cost parts and it's good preventative maintenance.

BTW - you can get it into 5th and 6th from a stop. You just have to feel for the gate. At a stop, it opens the reverse gate so the 5th and 6th gate is in between the 3rd/4th gate and reverse.

jproy

Probably the clutch. That is amazing milage. I when we pulled mine at 85,000 it looked like it had about 15,000 left on it. The flywheel can't be resurfaced and it is recomended that it be repaced.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I tried searching for the parts you refered to:

rear main seal on the motor
front input shaft seal on the gearbox

and coudln't find them on acuraoemparts.com

You don't happen to have part #'s for those?? I wanted to look up how much those cost.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I guess what threw me off on this problem was that it was mostly when I was already IN gear, and not so much while starting off or changing gears. I didn't know that the friction plate can cause problems while you're already in gear.

Allout

I think this is the seal on the tranny - located on the clutch housing:
91206-P0Z-005 OIL SEAL (35X54X8) (NOK)

I think this is the seal on the rear of the motor - located under cylinder block/oil pan:
91214-P8A-A01 OIL SEAL (80X98X10)

Each seal is around $5 each.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info. I'll look them up!

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

So on the drive home, I was really trying to pay attention to see if I was having the same problems in other gears. It appears that I have the lurching issue in gear 3 as well.


However

when I got home, and was pulling into my driveway today (which is uphill by the way and kinda steep), as I was pulling into the garage and revving the car into 2nd gear at around 2K rpm, the front of the car started to vibrate pretty bad, bad enough where I could feel it in the steering wheel too. I pulled in the garage, put it in neutral and revved the engine and it vibrated again! Even in neutral! revved again, same thing. So I put it into reverse, pulled a little bit out of the garage and started pulling in to see if I could duplicate it, and the vibration went away. Tried revving in neutral again and the vibration wasn't there.

Now I'm getting really as to what it this problem is.

I'm still going to replace the clutch as I do have so many miles on it, but as for this new vibration, I don't know if that's clutch related or not.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Still say it's the clutch. A bad clutch when continued to be driven on makes all sorts of strange noises, & acts all weird.
I can tell you from experience that the more you drive with the bad clutch the more likely you will need to replace the flywheel.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

well, I didn't drive the car today and am not driving the car tomorrow. If I can I'm not going to drive on it, till I get the clutch parts and have it replaced. If the problem is still there after, then I know something is up.

Because the clutch was fully engaged, I didn't understand how that would cause the vibration. Guess I'll find out soon enough.

Thanx guys.

03sixer

I personally wouldn't use this method. If you have any life left in your clutch at all this will completely obliterate it. Also, if it happens to NOT be your clutch...well this method will certainly ensure that you will be replacing your clutch soon as well.

This is probably the best method to see if your clutch is slipping. Get the car up to about 30 or 40 mph and put the car in 5th or 6th gear. Floor it. RPMs should rise negligibly if the clutch is working properly. If it's slipping, the RPMs will rise very rapidly and you will likely feel some shaking/vibrating. You don't have to slip it very much to determine that this is the problem.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Could a bad clutch cause nasty vibrations when starting to move from a stop or from a very very slow roll?

Because that's what my car did yesterday when I was pulling into my driveway. The funny thing is, I've experienced this problem in the past, but ONLY when my car is on an incline and when the front of the car is pointing up. very strange I've asked the dealer to check it out in the past, but they couldn't diagnose it at all. When starting to move from a stop on an incline and accellerating a hightened rate (3K+ RPM), it's as if something is out of place and causing the vibration.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Well, my Clutch Set, Clutch Release Bearing and Flywheel shipped out today. They didn't have them in stock otherwise they would have shipped out sooner. I should have them by Thursday of next week and I'll drop the car off next week Friday.

Now just gotta wait and see.

Luckily I won't be driving it till I get it repaired to play it safe.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Well I got my parts today. One of the part numbers on the items I got isnt' even lsited on acuraoemparts.com however I think it's the pressure plate which isn't listed on their website. The other part is the friction disk. both parts combined make up the clutch set that they replace so I'm guessing I'm ok and do have the right parts.

I did get the flywheel and that sucker is heavy as phuck!

Tomorrow I drop the CL off, and can't wait to get it back.

Just hope it fixes all the problems

If all is well after, will be installing my comptech headers which have been waiting patiently in my garage.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Alright, got a phone call from the dealership.

They've finished all the repairs, picking up the car tomorrow.

I got the rear motor seal replace. However, they didn't replace the inner shaft seal because they said that seal is on the inside of the transmission. I didn't know enough about it to explain which seal it was as Allout had mentioned that they could easily replace it while the clutch assembly is out.

In any case, can't wait to get it back tomorrow and see how it is.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Picked up the car this morning and is defintly driving a lot better.

I haven't driven it enough to know if ALL the problems are solved though.

I've noticed there is still that slight lurch 2-3 seconds AFTER letting off the accelerator. It's most prominent in 2nd gear and accelerating at a faster rate.


Also, the clutch pedel definitly isn't as tight as it used to be, even before the clutch replacement it was the same way. What dictates how hard it is to depress the clutch? Isn't there a clutch spring that handles that?

Glasuan

I'm pretty sure its hydraulic.

Allout

hydraulic. It probably feels lighter because all the parts are new and lubricated operating smoothly.

They're probably right on the imput shaft seal. I've got to have mine replaced and will probably involve a tranny tear down based on what they told you.

Glasuan

Sly how much did it cost to get the clutch and all the parts replaced?

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Here's the thing though, from the day I bought my car, my clutch wasn't feeling this light. It was alright stiff and harder to push down than what it is now. I do agree, it feels smoother now, but the force needed to push it down is much much less.

My bro-in-law was telling me that clutches, like brakes, have lines filled with fluid and over time they can wear and this wear can cause the clutch to feel softer. A replacement of this line could help increase the stiffness of the clutch depression and you could use a stainless steel line for the clutch line (like the brakes) and it can help improve this problem drastically. Is that true? If so, do they even make a stainless steel clutch line for our car?

I hope these aren't stupid questions, I'm not too familiar with the way a clutch works (better late than never).

Yea, they said to get to input shaft seal they had to dissassemble my transmission so they didn't do that.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Well I bought the parts from acuraoemparts.com and took them to my dealership. The parts came to approx $650 and that included the Clutch Set (pressure plate and friction plate), Clutch release bearing, and a new flywheel.

The labor for the parts came to a total of $712, but that price also included the price of the part for the rear motor oil seal that Allout suggested to have replaced. I didn't order that seal from acuraoemparts.com because I didn't learn of it until after I had already placed the order. But that oil seal is a cheap part so it wasn't of much concern to me in terms of price.


As for the flywheel though, it's not ALWAYS a replacement item. It all depends on how bad your flywheel is on your car. the flywheel was the most expensive part at $381 from acuraoemparts.com, I went ahead and replaced it to play it safe since I was already replacing the clutch and I didn't mind spending a little more and ensuring that the entire clutch assembly is new and functional since I"m also trying to diagnose that lurching issue which I am still experiencing even after the clutch replacement. I'm hoping that problem is as simple as the rear motor mount needing replacing. If it's the tranny...

ricardo95

curious. Why did you opt for teh stock oem clutch? No aftermarkets? I have seen great results on Hondas with centerforce, ACT clutches taking high torque and putting the ponies to the wheels efficiently. My friend dropped a centerforce into a DOHC Honda engine. Great take off the line.
My clutch seems to be having issues as well with slipping. I'm at 83K miles but a lot of NY city driving and not sure how the previous owner was with a stick. I'll probably take an ACT street - plate, bearing, and disc. Flywheel I see no need. We used to just cut them if need be and have teh machine shop measure 'em. (Why oh why can't I find any good machine shops anymore?)
best of luck, details on the clutch to follow.
ps- dropped a UR pulley- highly recommened

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Only 2 aftermarket ones are made & they are a bit pricey. Also the stock setup is proven to work & hold up well.
The CL 6MT is a different car in many aspects then a 4 banger Honda. What works on those will not on the CLS.

Example...The flywheel is dual mass & can't be machined. Options are reuse or replace.

fsttyms1

For your clutch feeling softer, you could try to have it rebled to see if it helps out some.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

So I took the car in last saturday because my brakes were still acting as if they were warped even though I had them resurfaced. Came to found out that they can resurface them anymore and I'll need to get new rotors. Brembo Blanks here I come.

Anyway, back on topic. So when I was at the dealership, I spoke with the guy I know there that's been trying to help me figure out what's wrong with the car. They havne' been able to figure it out because no error codes have been thrown and the last time I took it in, they could reproduce the problem. This time, we went for another test drive, they had this computer hooked up to my car while I did the test drive. I guess it recorded everything. And this time the problem did occur. The RPM's fluctuated eratically when i got on the throttle in 3rd gear. You could see it on the tach.

They downloaded the data from the computer and tried calling the factory but they were closed. So they sent all the data to the factory to see what they think could be the problem. I'm still waiting to hear back from them. I hope they can figure out what the hell is wrong.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

^^^ damn, I'm out of it, too many typos....

They couldn't reproduce the problem the first time I went in, this last time around, I was able to reproduce the problem for them.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Wow they seem like they want to fix it. Any dealer by me wouldn't give me the time of day for all that work.

Good luck

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Yup, I've been going to this dealership for 9+ years, this September will be 10.

I used to know every service manager and other people in parts. Their entire Service team recently changed, but I made good friends with a couple of them and after looking at my account history they saw that I've been going there for a while and have been taking care of me. Especially one of the service advisor's, he's really cool. He's the guy that's really helping me out. They've looked at my car twice now free of charge. Just one of the many reasons I always go back to these guys even though it's a bit of a drive from my house.