SiGGy

Ok, so since the wallet eating Comptech supercharger came out I've been researching other alternatives to provide boost. I have found some solid products that would give the CLS boost. And at much lower cost than the Comptech supercharger. However none of them have been proven/tested yet. So don't get too excited until you see some track times and or a dyno.



Turbodyne makes a Electric powered turbo. And for those who don't know much about turbos. One might think this is different than a regular turbo charger. But in reality it's not. Only difference is one is powered by your hot exhaust gas, and the other is powered by an electric motor. Seeing as technology is getting better and better, we have the means now to create an efficient powerful electric motor.

One of the advantages of using an electric motor to drive the turbos turbine is it spools up almost instanty. Where as a exhaust driven turbo would take a few seconds to build boost. However one of the disadvatanges of the electric driven turbo would be is draw on the alternator. It may only be robbing the car of 5hp, but you can't do that for very long without putting some strain on the stock electrical system. So getting your alternator rewound or installing a secondary alternator to run the turbo(s) would have to be considered. Or mabye just only using them sparingly... The control box for the turbo only enables the turbo under WOT. So your cars electrical system would not be taking a load constantly. But I can assume the turbo has some sorta duty cycle; 5-10seconds on & 60 seconds off, or something similar. (thats a guess I really don't know)

This product produces a maximum of 4LBs of boost in 1/4 of second with a 90 AMP draw and is priced at $1400. They claim a 30% increase in power. Someone whom has decent mechical skills could install this themselfs very easily. And in only a few hours after some good planning.

You can read more about it here ...

This 1500 Series is designed to run @ 12volts with 90amp draw at peak on a vehicles stock electrical system.
http://www.turbodyne.com/products/1500.html

And also their 24v big brother products 2200, 2500 series. These turbos are designed to run on higher AMP systems, NOT a stock electrical system.

http://www.turbodyne.com/products/2500.html

I have also been reading that Garrett plans to produce an electric drive turbo in the next year also (it's in development now). So mabye it will be worth it to wait awhile before making any purchases. As Garrett make some great products.

I plan on purchasing one this winter and trying it at the track in the Spring. So if no one else gives it a try, I'll have some sorta results to post next year. I will also get a dyno done.

LOL, if you want to see a joke of a product go look at this one...

http://www.electricsupercharger.com/

Looks like an R/C car electric motor, connected to a fan. Good idea, but it's not in the same boat as the Turbodyne or Garrett products.

When I get some news on the Garrett product I'll post the information up. I wrote them an e-mail after I couldn't find any information on their website. Hopefully I'll hear back from them

Zapata

heh uhm that electricsupercharge is right up there with the Tornado :shakehd: I am not familiar with the electric turbos

SiGGy

LOL, ya that product is scary isn't it... heheh

But the Turbodyne and Garrett product look to be promising.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

I turst either of the TurboDyne or Garrett... No Turnado for me...

Nashua_Night_Hawk

One thing u get it wrong it's 270 Amps to 370 Amps to generate 3.5 PSI.... And this is for the 2200 model. That is easy to explain... 5 HP is 750W x 5 = 3750 Watt or some 300 Amps @ 12 V!!

Now the CLS has 120 AMPs charger.. So you are draining the Battery at 3X rate.... VERY BAD news.... You need 3X bigger battery and 3X more powerfull Alternator..

allmotor_2000

300 Amps @ 12V!! Dude... you are gonna cause some major discomfort for the car's electrical system!

Smitty

OUCH!!!!!

Nashua_Night_Hawk

But very interesting idea... Electric Battery is charged at no cost... all the time and if this working on demand for 15s 1/4 mile run and geting you some extra 30-40 WHP,... it looks very cool... However, It do not think you can do that with stock Charger and Battery... And $1400 + ESM for the Boost and Alternator/Battery upgrade... No thank you.... NOS is safer and cheaper...

SiGGy

Sheesh, lol, I shouldn't have posted the other turbos...

The 1500 model draw 90amps at full draw. The other turbos are designed for 24volt system. However they do work in 12 volt. But at a high draw.

SiGGy

I knew I shouldn't have posted the 24v turbo....

As I stated the 1500 model is 90amp draw max. Lets not compare running a 24v turbo on a 12v system.

The 1500 does 4PSI at 90amps of draw and is designed to work on 12volts in a stock vehicle.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Where is the spec for model 1500.. no mention of the PSI/Current/CFM graphs.. Where is this 90AMps spec... That is less than 2HP BTW.... 90 x12 = 1080W or 1.3 HP...

SiGGy

Prices have changed since then... But the rest of the info is correct. Ya <2hp for a few LBS of boost is worth it. However I have read discrepancies with the MAX draw. But where talking +/- 5amps... from 95


... I just sent them an e-mail asking for brochure. I'll take the info down once I get it.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

If it is dyno proven and electrically safe and cost less than $999 than this looks great! I am interested...

SiGGy

Ya, no kiddin. I'm in too. I have some extra $ I made off the market this year. So I think I'll pick one up. I have found a few people out of the US that have used them. They say 30% gains on HP and around 25% gains on torque. And have seen about a 90AMP draw. And suggestions of using a 1000CCA battery.

I'll let ya know If I get any more information. Especially the specifics on the turbo itself. The 1500 is really the only one we can use on our cars in it's stock form. If one works, I might get two 1500s and stick another high output alternator in there... They'd have to be $999 for me to do that though...

We'll see

EricL

Someone rather clever is going to thing about energy utilization and figure out a way to add a second alternator that kicks in when the car is braking and use the braking energy to dump the otherwise wasted energy into a Ni-MH battery pack used just for the turbo.

There's tons of "waste" energy around and simply turning an alternator (or hybrid's electric motor) on during braking with a high amp battery pack can give you a huge amount of power for a short amount of time (Pulsed power systems). You could get more than enough power for one of the bigger electric superchargers and help braking on the 6-speed.

Zapata

heh Honda is a bit ahead of us on this one. Although it's not a FI application, the power gains are awesome. IMA makes great use of the wasted energy. The new dualnote/dn-x which will be released is reported to implement the IMA system that will provide 100 additional hp and instantaneous peak trq at lower RPMs. Electrical motors charged when the car is braking etc.,

EricL

Yeah, don't be surprised to see them pass over V8s and follow this track...

However, the ability to implement power and/or power boosting strategies is augmented by simply looking at energy (in its many forms) as a resource and independent of transport mechanism (hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical, electrical) and as you've mentioned, someone "clever" could actually grab onto the electric power from the regeneration system and not just dump the power back into the two drive motors.

Electric motors are very efficient and so are PWM converters. In lieu of just using the 2-drive motors to "augment" the low-end torque, it is also possible to dump additional energy into a S/C’s (supercharger’s) drive motor to pressurize the gas engine; this which would provide more overall peak power output (from the gas engine/electric drive motors) for a given amount of electrically stored power...

(The extra energy would come from the additional gasoline burned with increased air mass...)

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Anyone interested on custom-making an application...

Dam it, I am itching to start my own business with this electric SC!

EricL

Funny, I've been thinking about the possiblities for years...

Nashua_Night_Hawk

But that damn Turbodyne Co... is going bankrupt... latest Qrt.. No revenue and loss of $23 million.... Nasty!

Nashua_Night_Hawk

This is a description of the TurboDyne Co... even they have a turboAIR a CAI with built in Electric Supercharger:
education glossary printable


Turbodyne Technologies Inc., incorporated in 1983, operates through its wholly owned subsidiary, Turbodyne Systems Inc., as a designer and developer of air-charging technology that enhances the performance of internal combustion engines. The Company's technology is based on direct current/alternate current (DC/AC), high-speed, high-powered, electronically commutated electric motors. Turbodyne's business strategy involves entering into license agreements with original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) in the automotive industry that would incorporate its technology into their product lines in exchange for the payment of royalties or other similar license fees. The Company has incorporated its technology into two initial primary products, the Dynacharger and the Turbopac.

The Company transferred the intellectual property associated with its Dynacharger and Turbopac products to Honeywell, Inc. (Honeywell) in 1999. Turbodyne's rights to these products are now the subject of a license agreement and a joint development agreement with Honeywell. The Company re-acquired non-exclusive rights to the Turbopac and Dynacharger products in January 2002, due to the failure of Honeywell to reach certain production milestones under Turbodyne's agreements with Honeywell.

Turbodyne is finalizing the development of additional products incorporating new technology, including a product known as the TurboAir. The Company acquired significant license rights to this technology on October 15, 2001. These new products are in various stages of design and development. Turbodyne's ability to commercialize these new products is conditional upon it entering into arrangements with OEMs that provide for the final development and manufacturing of these products.

The Company's technology is based on the scientific principle that when fuel is burned with the theoretically correct amount of air, perfect combustion will take place, with the result that a maximum amount of thermal energy is released and the pollution released is minimized. Internal combustion engines produce power by burning fuel, a process that requires flows of both air and fuel. Sophisticated systems have been developed for the regulation of the flow of fuel into an engine. Less attention has been paid by automobile manufacturers to the regulation of the flow of air into the engine. The great majority of engines manufactured in the world depend on ambient air pressure to supply air in the combustion process. Ambient air pressure is not a perfectly efficient force for this process. In particular, ambient air pressure fails to supply air in sufficient quantities when an engine is accelerating, particularly at low-engine speeds. Turbodyne has developed its technology to address these inefficiencies of conventional internal combustion engine technology.

Turbopac

Turbodyne have developed the Turbopac product to increase the operational performance and efficiencies of non-turbocharged engines. The Turbopac product is an air-blower apparatus that consists of a fan driven by a proprietary electric motor and managed by an electronic management system. The Turbopac incorporates a high speed, high-power and electronically commutated electric motor that the Company developed. This electric motor is controlled by a rapid, high-powered DC/AC electronic controller capable of sustaining motor speeds in excess of 200,000 rotations per minute (rpms). This electric motor is mounted coaxially with a compressor in order to deliver compressed air into the engine when required.

The Turbopac product is powered by the vehicle's electrical system, and generates and feeds high-pressure air into the engine when electronic controllers within the engine request additional air for optimization of the combustion process. The Turbopac product is designed to manage and enhance the flow of air into an engine in the same manner as a fuel-injection system manages the flow of fuel into the engine. It incorporates an electric motor with magnets. The electronic management system for the Turbopac is external to the air-blower device, and is mounted separately within the vehicle compartment. Turbodyne has designed the Turbopac product with the objective of making it easy to install on any type of internal combustion engine, including engines in automobiles, motorcycles, trucks, airplanes and locomotives.

Dynacharger

The Company has developed its Dynacharger product in order to address the turbo lag problem that occurs in turbocharged internal combustion engines. The underlying engineering requirement to solving the turbo lag problem is an auxiliary drive unit with a high-power-density capable of rapidly accelerating the compressor of a turbocharger when there is insufficient exhaust gas energy to compress the engine's intake air.

Turbodyne's Dynacharger product incorporates a high-speed, high-power-density electric motor that is mounted coaxially between a turbocharger's turbine and the compressor. The Dynacharger is controlled by external controls that regulate the operation of the electric motor that is connected to the compressor of the turbocharger. The Dynacharger product enables the turbocharger's compressor to compress the air supply delivered to the engine during periods, including start-up and acceleration, when the force provided by the engine's exhaust gas is insufficient to provide adequate power to the turbocharger's compressor. Test results completed on engines using its Dynacharger product demonstrate substantial increases in engine power during acceleration, reduced particle emissions and improved fuel economy.

TurboAir

The Company is in the process of developing its TurboAir product. This product consists of an air-blower device incorporated into the air-filter compartment of a vehicle engine. The TurboAir product incorporates an electric motor that does not use magnets used to drive a fan within the air blower that provides a pressurized flow of air into the engine. It is designed to be self-cooling and to minimize the required electrical current from the vehicle's electrical system. The electronic controls for the TurboAir product are incorporated internally, rather than being mounted separately within the vehicle engine compartment. The electronic controls are designed to be linked into the OEM's vehicle engine management system. The incorporation of the electronic controls into the vehicle's engine management system requires that each TurboAir product be programmed in cooperation with the OEM. Turbodyne is working on prototypes for three models for vehicles with 12-volt electrical systems and three models for vehicles with 24-volt electrical systems. The Company also plans to develop models of the TurboAir product for vehicles using the 36-volt electrical system to be introduced as a standard in Europe.
Fundamental Data provided by:

mc222

which brand/ co. is most reputable?

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Check this

http://home.arcor.de/hildst/starteng.html

SiGGy

Both Turbdyne and Garrett are good. Seems turbodyne needs to get their act in gear. Either product will be of good quality. However I would think Garretts product might be better. But that's just the feeling I get.

SiGGy

I'm going to buy one. We'll see how well it works. I might get the Garrett instead if its out when I'm ready purchase the Turbopac 1500. Or mabye another one of their products if it's ready.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

I believe that Garret and TurboDyne are using the same product!

Check here: http://www.egarrett.com/technology/t...&l2id=2&l3id=2

And here is the specs page of the 1500 model: http://home.arcor.de/hildst/techrep3.html

SiGGy

Ya, totally. Cool, guess I know what I'll be ordering for sure then.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Here is the order form... fax it to Garret or Turbodyne!



http://home.arcor.de/hildst/turbofor...turboform.html

mc222

YAY! I was hoping for someone else to take the plunge on this before me..I just didnt have the balls

mc222

So could one of you guys break it down as to what stock parts would need to be upgraded/moved/replaced....Would I need a higher output battery/alternator...Or anything else? ( yeah yeah...I know - a better tranny...leave that one at home)

Nashua_Night_Hawk

1) You need to figure if the TurboPac would have be insterted before or after the CAI nipples. ( There are 2 )
2) You need a custom piping for the bypass valve. The Bypass valve pipe may actually house the nipples.
3) You need and ESM like the one from Comptech
4) You need to tap the throtle postion snesor to detect full throtle or any % of throtle u like to activate the Turbopac...
5) You need to custom make frames to hold in place the TurboPac Turbo and the DC/AC converter.

Finally, Have good faith in your:
A) Alternator
B) Battery
C0 Your Tranny...

Good luck.

SiGGy

thanks

Already had all of that planned out, plus a few extras. I hope it works. I don't plan on using the bypass valve with the turbo when I test it.

LOL, not too worried about the alternator, and I have a 1000CCA battery ready and waiting

the tranny, well, lol, umm, ya, we'll see how it handles the load.

I'll take pics and note my changes/performance. Plus do a before and after dyno. And I'll have new rubber on by then.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

You may find yourself obliged to have a bypass pipe with valve Because, at non-WOT the TurboPac is off... so I do not know how the engine would suck air and the Turbo is off... It would hinder the in-flow of air, no? This is why you may need a bypass ... And the electric motor may not spin freely if the AC current is off.

SiGGy

thanks again! I called Turbodyno and hooked up with one of their sales peeps, and techncal guys last week

b.t.w. here's what happens when you hit that URL


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mc222

Hey Siggy, just please keep us updated--I would love to do this--half the price of the Comptech S/C ....Im once again hating this forum for draining my pockets

SiGGy

Depends on the design of the turbo. Some are designed to flow air through even when they are idle, with little to no restriction. Guess I'll find out.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

http://home.arcor.de/hildst/turboform.html

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Check this too...:

http://www.turbodyne.com/Davidw_agm_2002.htm

NOVAwhiteTypeS

AWESOME !!!! good luck buddy keep us updated. or try to keep a website w/ updates

scalbert

Yep, been ther too.

I was looking at a design of one back almost nine years ago on the '93 Probe GT I had then (or rather my wife was driving). The concept of an electric SC is promising due to the motors being so efficient.