Rapture

I've had my 03 CL-S 5AT for almost 3 years now. Ever since I bought the car, it's always shifted a little hard when the engine was still warming up, but when it's warmed up, it shifts smooth. So basically, the shift quality hasn't changed much since I bought the car. I've only put about 17k miles on it (I procrastinate and group trips quite often) and I'm not entirely sure when the fluid in the trans was replaced. TBH I see the blue bolts on the trans, so I know it's been replaced (I'm the 2nd owner) so based off that I'd say chances are the fluid has more than likely never swapped out or anything since that trans was replaced.

I've heard mixed opinions. Some say it prolongs trans life, others say they get over 100k on these crap transmissions, without ever changing the fluid. So based off my parameters, would you guys say a trans flush is worth it? Of course by flush I mean a 3x3.

And yeah, when the trans does crap out, I'm gonna go with a Oddy swap. I'd rather try to get as much life out of this trans as I can before I do that, though.

mr2fast2thao

idk about the flushing part. i would just drain the old tranny fluid and put in new honda ATF from the dealer.

Rapture

Well afaik a 3x3 is classified as a "flush" I believe Acura advises against using typical flushing equipment on their trans. Again, I'm not 100% sure.

VIPCLS

Got mine done. Definately a good investment, the tranny shifts much smoother.

OperationDarkie

iTrader: (1)

it is not a flush, it is a "drain & fill" if it was a flush there would be some type of pressure hose fitted and my friend who is a acura tech they don't even call it a flush at the dealership, just a drain and fill

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

Yea, instead of using flush just say 3x3 even though I know thats what you mean. The word flush just sets something off in my head.

I do a 3x3 like clock work every 2 years (20k miles for me). I've put on about 50k so far on a used tranny and it still works. I notice a big difference in shift quality with the first drain and refill. I think ATF-Z1 starts wearing out after about this time. Z1 is being replaced with ATF DW-1, a synthetic ATF from honda.

Rapture

^I haven't heard much about that new ATF... is it better or worse for these transmissions? The article I read about it over in Car Talk said it was moreso targeted at newer Honda vehicles... as in like '06 and on, or something.

BigAl3000

I don't recommend doing a trans flush nor a fluid exchange. If you do a trans flush, it'll remove particles from the trans that's been making it work for the longest of time. The original trans fluid acts almost like a blood for the trans. When I got the fluid exchange, my trans died like 8k miles after the change. If there's nothing wrong with the trans, just leave it alone. Don't add any fluid and don't add any additives.

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

u probably didn't do it for a long long time and then u did it after the crap had built up in the trans.

if u do it on the reg then those particles don't the luxury of time to seat into every orfice .

i live by the 3x3... i do it ever 30000kms or less

Dead-Fox

If you decide to DYI, a word of warning: Make sure you can loosen the filler bolt BEFORE you remove the drain bolt. Many people have NOT been able to remove that filler bolt (it's a BITCH) and weren't able to fill their fluid back up.

I've drained and filled though the dipstick using this: http://www.amazon.com/AutoSport-Hand.../dp/B002YJ9VTG

TheWeez

This thinking is just stupid. Lets promote poor vehicle maintenance. Fluid performance degrades over time and you're promoting leaving the poor performing fluid in the transmission because it's worked thus far?

What evidence do you have that your transmission wouldn't have failed 8K miles later had you NOT changed the fluid?

I haven't changed my oil in 10k miles and everything seems fine so I should just leave it be because it seems to be working fine and it might break down if I put fresh oil in it.

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

^lol

as for the drain plug. many places use an impact gun and just crank it on there and then 1 year or more later whe u go to crack it off it has practically bonded together (so it seems)

on my bro's prelude they put it on so hard I had to raise the car on a lift then take a BREAKER bar and push with all my might and then finally after a few good LEAN INS i hear cccccrrrrrraackkkkk... and amen it came loose.

but you will at least need a 1.5 ft bar to get some leverage to get er off. mine was 2.5 maybe longer.

good luck

BigAl3000

I'm not too sure of the facts about getting the trans fluid flush during the scheduled maintenance to keep the trans from ever having problems. All I know is after I got the fluid exchange, that's when my trans died and I had to get a replacement. Just the same way your asking me, do you have any evidence to show that performing a fluid exchange DOESN'T affect your transmission? I got all this information from several mechanics and what you should and shouldn't do with the transmission. I spoke to a mechanic last week and he just told me once your transmission is good, don't add any fluid UNLESS it needs it and DON'T add any of those transmission additives that claim to keep your trans healthy and clean.

As a matter of fact, Pep Boys( I know you don't take them seriously lol), but they won't even service your transmission (Flush/Fluid Exchange) if your car is past 100k miles.

I was told that the only time you should perform a flush is when your experiencing slipping and the flush is one of the last things you can do to see if your trans can be saved before costly repairs.

It's just too much of a coincidence it happened soon after I did mine and ask a mechanic because they'll tell you about that old fluid being the blood of the transmission.

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

Well we arent talking about flushes or exchange machines. This is just a simple drain and refill done 3 consecutive times in 1 day. The fluid gets changed and its gentle on the transmission. Like I said, I'm about to do my third 3x3, I do it every 2 years or about 30k miles for me.

I know after my first drain and refill, I can feel the shifts get a lot smoother.

o1s

i'm with bigal3000. my transmission made it to 221k miles without all those 3x3 drains or flushes. i had the 3x3 flush done at my 105k service, but i'm not even sure that they did it then.

CLSspeedx

Well I'll chime and and also suggest AGAINST A FLUSH. Though my CLS is a 6 speed now, I previously had an AT accord and got talked into a flush which did nothing but exacerbate my issues. The way Honda explained it to me was that a flush will force crap through the system and cause overheating down the road. Drain and Fill is the way to go.

(Other note: Once I noted the slipping getting worse, I did use Slick 50 AT treatment from Walmart and got another 40k out of it without it getting worse, even slight improvement. I was even able to sell the car and just told the buyer the history.)

Good luck.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

A standard drain and fill is not the way to go. The 3x3 "flush" is (this is basically a d&f 3 times in succession, but there is no pressure built up by a t-tech machine). Its the gentle version of a flush. But these transmissions are still fragile, so YMMV.

BigAl3000

The 3x3 flush your talking about is for people who've purchased a brand new car and they constantly get their service done. Any service before 50k is important and the flush won't mess up your tranny anytime before then.

If your purchasing a USED CL or any USED vehicle for that matter from someone or a dealership, other than an extensive service history, how would you know if the previous owner(s) abided by the 3x3 rule? If the person didn't do the 3x3 rule, then getting a flush or fluid exchange at any point AFTER that will cause damage to your tranny. It's just best to leave the tranny alone. The ONLY time besides doing that 3x3 service to do either a flush OR fluid exchange is when your experiencing problems with your tranny. The flush and/or fluid exchange MIGHT save your tranny before you purchasing another one.

I've just spoke to another mechanic about this issue last week and he laughed when I told him your responses.

He said

1. The 3x3 is for people when they first purchase a brand new car.

2. When you do a flush and it hasn't had the scheduled timeline of service (e.g. 3x3), it will remove particles from the tranny that kept the tranny running properly. If you remove them, the tranny won't work right and that's when you have problems.

3. You don't need to do a fluid exchange. Although the tranny fluid might be burned, you can't take out ALL of the fluid and replace it with new tranny fluid because you'll have problems again. If you wanna do a proper exchange, take out about 15-20 percent of the old fluid and add some of the new fluid and let it mix together. But you NEVER wanna take out ALL of the old fluid.

But you don't have to listen to me. Go on ahead and get your flush and fluid exchange. Ya'll gonna be like "That bigal guy was right." I get all my info from mechanics.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I row my own, so this I highly doubt.

As you can see by the last sentence in my previous post, I said that these trannies are fragile. Some people that service it religiously can make it last, while others that do the same thing need to replace theirs. Its a crap-shoot with this auto tranny. Most members have good luck with the 3x3 method (and yes, even those that bought their car used). It seems as though the general concensus amongst most of the members on this site recommend that method. Id much rather share information with people who have been there, done that.

If what you do works for you, keep doing it.

Rapture

Alright, call me an idiot for doing this, but after hearing about people having trouble doing the 3x3 by themselves, I figured I'd shell out the extra money and see if a dealer can do it. If I had an impact wrench I'd do it myself... I do hear from plenty of people that they can't get the bolts off for some reason.

Problem is I asked them what procedure they followed for doing a ATF change. At first they refused to tell me for liability purposes (no joke) then I finally got some info out of them. They say they do a flush, and (quote) "All 12 quarts get removed" according to my helms manual, the trans only has like 7.6 quarts in it or something... right? So wtf 12? Also, I asked them if they use any equipment for the flush, and they said yes. Don't know if they were referring to any sort of power flush machine or whatever... For some reason they didn't want to tell me a whole lot.

So has anyone had their 3x3 done at a dealer? Is it true Honda recommends against using any flushing machines or other equipment? Somehow I wanna give my dealer the benefit of the doubt and say it was all a miscommunication. So has anyone tried to get a ATF change done at a dealer, and what was your experience like?

As a matter of fact they told me to go to helminc.com to see what they do with ATF changes. Anyone know what they're referring to? I can't find anything. Sounds like whatever they had posted on there, the dealer follows.

Rapture

Well to be fair, I do remember you saying your trans spent most of its time in 5th gear. afaik it's the shifting that kills this trans.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

didnt read other responses....in a hurry so gonna post something real quick:

if you are conservative: I would just do a drain and refill of 3qts of the stock fluid....this should help smooth-en the shifts....and do it every oil change till you have done it a total of 3 times....

if you dont mind experimenting: I would do a drain and refill with the Redline Type F...the type F shifts smoother than the stock Z1 and it also doesnt break down as easily hence protecting the tranny....I would do the drain and refill every oil change till you have done it a total of 4 times....

I am on redline type F and running good...I have 150K on my 05 TL 5AT....before switching to redline I used to do a drain and refill of the tranny with Z1 every oil change to keep my healthy...I switched at 150K...i hate to dump 12qts of a liquid in my car not knowing how my car is going to react to it....hence I did a drain and refill every 1000 miles....started at 147K and done at 150K....doing it this way, if your car doesnt react as well, you can go back....

Rapture

So it does have 12 quarts in it? But then why is it a 3x3 as opposed to a 3x4?

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

no tranny can hold only 7.4 qts but i cycled it through 12...you pour in 9qts (3x3) to get majority of the oil fluid out and majority of the characteristics of the new fluid....

the reason I did a 4(times)x3(qts) is because i ordered the redline 12qt box....the 3 extra qts were better off sitting in the tranny than in my garage

Rapture

Yeah the reason I asked that was because I'm still confused about what the dealer told me over the phone "All 12 quarts get emptied" or something to that effect.

I think I should call them back up and ask wtf.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

well i dont know how to dealers do it....i have heard they do a flush using a machine....they suck 7.4qts out and fill 7.4 qts in and call it a day....if they do a 3x3 then they would need only 9qts....dont know why they quoting you for 12....maybe thats why i call them "stealerships"

I would suggest doing this yourself...it takes 10 minutes tops....

Rapture

Yeah but I hear some people have a hell of a time with some of the plugs. I just figured if they do a 3x3 (which is what I hear Honda actually recommends...) then I can have one less thing to do on my schedule, I guess.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

all you need is a breaker bar....

i used to have a hell of a time trying to take the fill bolt off but i use the bar from my jack (low profile jack) and boom it takes a second....

for the drain bolt i use the ratchet and a hammer....hammer the ratchet handle and the bolt comes off....

saves me 130-150 bucks for labor that you pay to the dealer....

Rapture

Yeah I definitely wouldn't be doing this at the dealer They keep trying to sell me on some $200 trans flush. They do use a flush machine, saying they use a cleaner to get rid of all the stuff inside, saying "All 12 quarts get changed"

So yeah... I think I'll pass on the dealer. Also, does everyone change out the ATF filter every time they do a 3x3?

pickler

i would not flush. i never flushed any of my cars ATF. always had high mileage on them with no problem. i just drain and fill my 03 TL with ATF-DW1. still on original transmission and shifts like a champ. It's better to change fluids regularly than flush and keep for a while.

CLSspeedx

Agreed, drain and fill is the best. My friend is a service writer at a huge honda service center here and they were mandated to buy the "flush" machine mentioned above I believe. He said it "vacuums" out the fluid versus flushing the system... He also told me none of the technicians tend to use it and the favor the drain & fill.

Rapture

Also, how do you guys do a 3x3? I mean, I've heard some people drain & fill once, drive around a bit, D&F again, drive around, etc. until they drain and fill 3 times total. Others say they just do it consecutively 3 times, and that'll get all the old fluid out without mixing the old with the new.

Which is right?

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

I dont know about the 2G's...but 04-06 TL's have a filter which people replace like 60-70K miles....and that too not many people....many dont know there is a Tranny Filter

I agree...I used to do a drain and refill of my ATF with every engine oil change (5K miles)....ends up being the same...flush every 60K (12 qts) or drain and refill every 5K miles (5x12 =60)

I just switched to redline and am thinking of going the distance with this....

They wont because you need to drive to get the old fluid out which they wont do....its easier for them to just suck and refill....

Yes...after each drain and refill drive around in each gear....I think your getting confused here...

OPTION1: Drain and refill....drive around for 5 minutes switching into each gear and driving in each gear for a minute (including reverse)....this will get the old fluid out of the torque convertor (i hope am saying this part name right)

OPTION2: Drain and refill with extended interval....do a drain and refill and drive as you would for 500-800 miles and then do it again....

I like option 2 on high mileage cars since if something is going wrong you can switch back.....

If you do it consecutively without driving your just pouring the new fluid out...

Rapture

Thanks for all the help, broseph My concern is just that I wanna make sure I get all the sludge and clutch material (if present) drained out, instead of getting mixed with the new fluid and causing problems however far down the road.

and LOL luckily I work at a place that has a mechanic-type garage, and was able to use an impact wrench on the fill bolt. The drain bolt wasn't too bad, but I swear the fill bolt had to be torqued to around 100 ft/lbs. The impact wrenches they have, can torque to about 150, and it took a bit of cranking to get the fill bolt off. Why do mechanics torque those down so hard? The service manual says 36 ft/lbs... Maybe to discourage owners from doing it themselves?

o1s

the sludge and clutch material is what holds the tranny together.

Rapture

Maybe. I dunno if foreign material is really going to help lubricate and keep components cool.

btw for the record I did mean loose clutch material.

Rapture

Did the 3x3. After the first drain and fill I could automatically sense smoother shifting. After the 3rd it shifts like almost nothing.

I didn't have enough time to get that filter though Dealing with my CAI is enough of a pain in the ass, so I had to wrestle around with trying to maneuver it until I ran out of time and had to leave it. Oh well, I'm sure it'll be fine until I can get to it. The bolts holding the temp sensor/bracket are quite a PITA. Not to mention it's in a pretty cramped space (unless you completely remove your intake, then it's a little better) and with 10 mm bolts, I only had a 1/4" ratchet for it. So little torque..

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ yup the smaller one doesnt provide much torque....

one thing I got other than smoother shifts when i did my tranny filter is a ton a slits and cuts

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

I just unbolt the jet from the jet kit and it leaves a small hole after you pull it out. I just stick a long funnel into the hole and fill my tranny that way. I have no way to get out that big nut with my set of tools. It has to be like 26mm or something like that.

1sickaccord

do a couple of drain and fills and your good to go