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Old 04-11-2017, 12:44 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Doom878 View Post
What is the proper procedure to take out a passenger in this scenario? What if it's a very large person that cannot simply be dragged?
Use a forklift.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:57 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
50,000 passengers 'denied boarding' on British flights every year

Around 50,000 airline passengers a year are bumped off British flights, many of which have been deliberately overbooked, according to the aviation watchdog.

50,000 passengers 'denied boarding' on British flights every year « Express & Star

Like I said, an absolutely ordinary event got turned into an extra-ordinary incident.
I think the difference and why people are pissed is the difference between Denied boarding which happens everyday vs. dragged off the plane. Even though it was not done by UA.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Yumcha View Post
Use a forklift.

Too much hassle. Open the Emergency door and kick him off.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
50,000 passengers 'denied boarding' on British flights every year

Around 50,000 airline passengers a year are bumped off British flights, many of which have been deliberately overbooked, according to the aviation watchdog.

50,000 passengers 'denied boarding' on British flights every year « Express & Star

Like I said, an absolutely ordinary event got turned into an extra-ordinary incident.
50,000 a year on British flights vs 66,660 by United Air alone last year (3,765 involuntary and 62,895 voluntary). You'd think United would be pros at handling situations like this with all the experience they have.

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Old 04-11-2017, 01:15 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
I think the difference and why people are pissed is the difference between Denied boarding which happens everyday vs. dragged off the plane. Even though it was not done by UA.
Sure. I posted that mostly for KaMLuNg:
Originally Posted by KaMLuNg View Post
...
it seems to only happen on our crappy domestic airlines... this never happens with Qantas/Virgin/Emirates
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:26 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by AZuser View Post
50,000 a year on British flights vs 66,660 by United Air alone last year (3,765 involuntary and 62,895 voluntary). You'd think United would be pros at handling situations like this with all the experience they have.

@ Southwest.... but i guess they know how to handle situations like that since we don't really hear people complaining about it... United should contact SW to learn a thing or 2.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:27 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
Like I said, an absolutely ordinary event got turned into an extra-ordinary incident.
I've seen (and been on) plenty of overbooked flights.
I've never ever heard of a person who checked in, sat down, and then was told their seat wasn't available and gotten kicked off the plane.

(Not including the idiots who get physically/verbally violent and get thrown off)

- Frank
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:28 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by AZuser View Post
50,000 a year on British flights vs 66,660 by United Air alone last year (3,765 involuntary and 62,895 voluntary). You'd think United would be pros at handling situations like this with all the experience they have.

Those stats show how very ordinary the event was and how unusual this outcome was.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ChodTheWacko View Post
I've seen (and been on) plenty of overbooked flights.
I've never ever heard of a person who checked in, sat down, and then was told their seat wasn't available and gotten kicked off the plane.

(Not including the idiots who get physically/verbally violent and get thrown off)

- Frank
This guy was "special" .. 1 in 659 million special apparently.

BTW: How does this passenger not fall into the category of one of those idiots who got physically/verbally violent???

Last edited by underdog; 04-11-2017 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
Those stats show how very ordinary the event was and how unusual this outcome was.
That's what everyone is talking about here!
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
@ Southwest.... but i guess they know how to handle situations like that since we don't really hear people complaining about it... United should contact SW to learn a thing or 2.


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Old 04-11-2017, 01:45 PM
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Gotta give it to them tho... they will kick you off the plane and you will thank them for it... that is not an easy thing to do l
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
BTW: How does this passenger not fall into the category of one of those idiots who got physically/verbally violent???
Because he doesn't. And if you think he does, then I ask the opposite side of the question to you:
What physical/verbally violent action did this person do that caused him to get thrown off the plane?
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:05 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by is300eater View Post
+1

I love how people are commenting in defense of UA Seriously, in ANY situation, if you're asked to move, leave, get out for something you've already paid for, because your spot will be going to an employee, I have no doubt most of you would go apeshit over it. I know I would. I hope this guy sues the fuck out of UA and O'Hara Airport PD
Yeah. I do agree with UAL on the legging issue....100% on the UAL side on that one.

This incident? A business/PR disaster.


Originally Posted by underdog View Post
I would never be "dragged off" an airplane because I'm not a dumbass who causes a disturbance, shrieking like
a wounded hyena when I don't get my way.

You seem to be under the impression that an airline has to get a passenger's consent to deny them a seat. Not so.

The airline has the absolute RIGHT to deny you boarding. Period. The law requires that they provide you
compensation for the inconvenience of involuntarily being denied boarding according to a federally mandated
calculation.

So, here are your options:
1) You can accept the airline's offer of compensation for the inconvenience of a delay and voluntarily deplane.
2) You can ignore the airline's offer of compensation, roll the dice, and risk being involuntarily deplaned
and receive compensation for the inconvenience anyway.

Your choice, 1) or 2)? Either way, you're off the airplane but compensated.

Obviously in the interests of good customer relations the airline prefers to get your cooperation and
tries to incent you to cooperate, usually by offering more than the law requires them to. But in the
end, if they have 160 asses to fit into 159 seats, somebody is not getting on the plane. And it is the
airline's right to say who.
Originally Posted by underdog View Post
50,000 passengers 'denied boarding' on British flights every year

Around 50,000 airline passengers a year are bumped off British flights, many of which have been deliberately overbooked, according to the aviation watchdog.

50,000 passengers 'denied boarding' on British flights every year « Express & Star

Like I said, an absolutely ordinary event got turned into an extra-ordinary incident.
Dude. This did not apply to this situation at all and it seems to me it's not an "ordinary event." The carriage contract also reports denied BOARDING and also overselling policies.

So I'm trying to review the facts and correct me if I'm wrong but....

The flight was NOT oversold. It was perfectly booked to capacity. United needed to fly 4 crews to KY and needed to bump people off the plane that had already BOARDED. This is not denied boarding at all as far as I'm concerned so how much does that Sec 25 of the United Contract carriage applies...will be up to the lawyer. (Probably hundreds of lawyers chomping at the bit to take this case). So the passengers were already on board the airplane. (again lawyers may be needed to interpret the contract/legalese...)

I fly fairly frequently and yes it is VERY common to see airlines offer vouchers BEFORE people board the plane.

Also according to eye witnesses at the plane (saw on CNN just earlier today) as well as known facts...THE ENTIRE PLANE, according to your definition, was interfering with air crew duties because NO ONE volunteered. And when they chose the 4 random people, witnesses say the police/security went to a couple/person first and they REFUSED to leave....so then they went to talk to this man who also refused.

Also, sure I get that flying is not a right, but a privilege. But this could've been handled WAY better than UAL did. Keep ratcheting up the compensation and you can easily find someone who would take it. I also heard from a colleague that passengers were demanding cash-equivalent, not just airplane vouchers (need confirmation though).

With the billions that UAL earns in profit recently, they could've just raise it up to $2000/voucher or even more...it's nothing to them. NOw they are facing huge PR backlash.

Also, we don't know what this man was going through or his personal situation. SOme people here say they would've easily taken the $800....but what if you had to get to a funeral or family event or some job that is very important to get there on time...but you were forced to leave?

Again, I do want to draw attention to the fact that this is not DENIED BOARDING....the passengers were already boarded which puts them in a different situation. WIll need lawyers to read into the 40 page contract.

Last edited by nist7; 04-11-2017 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
This guy was "special" .. 1 in 659 million special apparently.

BTW: How does this passenger not fall into the category of one of those idiots who got physically/verbally violent???
The video clearly shows some verbal distress. THe video shows no sign of the passenger becoming physically violent at all. THe security guys did show PLENTY of violence, including causing the passenger's head to hit an armrest and the subsequent bleeding.

UAL CEO also showed very poor judgement in sending that email to UAL stating the passenger was repeatedly asked and then became belligerent. Which from some eye witnesses was not the case at all. ANd in fact MULTIPLE people refused UAL's offer to leave the plane before they chose to move on to this guy
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ChodTheWacko View Post
Because he doesn't. And if you think he does, then I ask the opposite side of the question to you:
What physical/verbally violent action did this person do that caused him to get thrown off the plane?
Bridges said two officers tried to calmly talk the man out of his seat before a third approached him in an aggressive manner.
The officer told him he had to get off the plane, and when he resisted, the officer grabbed him out of his seat and carried him out with
the other officers.
He resisted police.

Passenger dragged off overbook United flight - CNN.com
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:28 PM
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Haven't read a lot into this incident, but it was being discussed at lunch today & someone mentioned that he had deplaned & came back on with the 4 new passengers & that was when the escalation started
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:32 PM
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So .. as much as I am enjoying this discussion, its consuming far too much of my time
especially as I don't have a dog in this fight.

Y'all will have to continue the debate among yourselves.
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:34 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
Too much hassle. Open the Emergency door and kick him off.
Sparda kick.



"THIS IS...UNITED!" *kick*
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
So .. as much as I am enjoying this discussion, its consuming far too much of my time
especially as I don't have a dog in this fight.

Y'all will have to continue the debate among yourselves.
thank you for your permission!
/redtext
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:43 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
Manager: We're kicking you off the plane
Person: Why?
Manger: You're yelling and screaming like a maniac.
Person: No I'm not. I'm sitting here quietly reading.
Manager: Well, you're going to be yelling and screaming after we smash your face into a chair.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:07 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by 00TL-P3.2 View Post
Haven't read a lot into this incident, but it was being discussed at lunch today & someone mentioned that he had deplaned & came back on with the 4 new passengers & that was when the escalation started
this was also mentioned by Srika who had a friend that works for UA as a FA.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:08 PM
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Ha... So not only did he resist... he's a convicted felon...

Man removed from jet is Kentucky doctor with criminal record - ABC News
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cM3go View Post
Ha... So not only did he resist... he's a convicted felon...

Man removed from jet is Kentucky doctor with criminal record - ABC News
How is that relevant?
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:21 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by cM3go View Post
Ha... So not only did he resist... he's a convicted felon...

Man removed from jet is Kentucky doctor with criminal record - ABC News

correction. he is going to be a Rich Convicted felon ;p Merika!
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:25 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by juniorbean View Post
How is that relevant?
To you and me, nothing. To the defendants' (United and Aviation Police) lawyers, they will probably spin it somehow.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by underdog View Post
The entire plane resisted de-boarding as no one volunteered for it and refused to do so. Eye witnesses also have told CNN that they saw officers approach 1/2 people before going to this seat and the people they approached first also refused to leave.

Why they became very aggressive to this chinese guy specifically is beyond me.

One can only imagine how they would've handled a passenger sitting in 1st class (if there was a 1st class in this plane configuration)....

Originally Posted by cM3go View Post
Ha... So not only did he resist... he's a convicted felon...

Man removed from jet is Kentucky doctor with criminal record - ABC News
Nice ad hominem.

Last edited by nist7; 04-11-2017 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:28 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by cM3go View Post
To you and me, nothing. To the defendants' (United and Aviation Police) lawyers, they will probably spin it somehow.
I'm guessing hundreds of lawyers are chomping at the bit to work with this guy....the impending lawsuit can be a huge pay day. UAL lawyers will definitely spin it but I think any lawyer worth their weight will be able to easily defend against ad hominem issues like this.

By the same vein, lawyers can dig up dirt on that officer who became violent with the man and bring that in too if they want to play the ad hominem game.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:30 PM
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This is interesting if true. . . .

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united...173844672.html

This was United’s real mistake

Was United legally justified when it forcibly dragged a paying passenger off a plane in Chicago on April 9? The airline seems to think so, but it may come down to whether the company complied with government rules on what airlines must do when passengers are involuntarily bumped.

The Transportation Department says airlines must “give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn’t.” There’s no evidence United did that. In an internal email published by the Associated Press, United CEO Oscar Munoz said company employees “followed our involuntary denial of boarding process.” But he didn’t say whether those employees followed government rules, including issuing the written statement and giving an explanation for why a given passenger was singled out for bumping.


United’s Rule 25

Rule 25 of United’s “contract of carriage”—which is basically the legal fine print governing passenger flights—contains detailed procedures for how to handle overbooked flights on which passengers need to be bumped, either voluntarily or involuntarily. But there’s no mention of a written statement or an explanation offered to passengers who are bumped against their will. So unless there are other United procedures that aren’t public, the carrier’s official policy seems to exclude what the government requires.

There’s another wrinkle. Rule 25 deals almost entirely with passengers denied boarding—in other words, people who never get on a plane. But in the Chicago incident, the passenger had already boarded when United employees told him he had to get off. Again, unless United has an unpublished policy dealing with this scenario, it’s not addressed in the contract of carriage. So even if United followed its own procedures, it would have violated government rules.

The whole incident seems to have arisen from an unusual situation unanticipated by the airline. United says the flight was already fully boarded when four crew members approached the gate, saying they needed to board the plane to get to Louisville, where the flight was headed, or else a subsequent United departure out of Louisville would have to be canceled. So United made the probably rational decision that it was cheaper to bump four passengers and pay them for their troubles, than to leave the crew members in Chicago and cancel a Louisville departure.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:35 PM
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^^^Exactly.

I mentioned it as well....Sec 25 in UAL's contract specifically notes "boarding." But in this case the passengers are already boarded....so a lawyer can easily take this up in court.

Also the flight was NOT oversold AFAIK. It was 100% booked, and UAL needed 4 seats for their own employees and wished to bump paying customers.

This was my gripe with certain posters above who kept mentioning non-relevant stats about denied boarding and overselling....which did NOT occur in this case.

I've seen countless people getting "bumped" after they were offered vouchers...but this was all handled BEFORE boarding.

I've never seen people being removed from a plane AFTER they boarded.....probably because to avoid situations like this. Having to forcibly remove a passenger is bad enough but to do it in this way is just disaster for all involved.

Many of my colleagues are saying that this dude is gonna have some huge pay day coming to him now. UAL and the Aviation police...
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:40 PM
  #151  
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It seems like a major detail that is being thrown around but not exactly highlighted with any certainty was this man leaving the aircraft and then getting back on. If true, that could change the whole outcome. Why don't we know for sure what happened?
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:44 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by cM3go View Post
Ha... So not only did he resist... he's a convicted felon...

Man removed from jet is Kentucky doctor with criminal record - ABC News

text book victim blaming. In fact, I would argue that all this digging up his past and making it public should be part of the emotional harm done to him, especially if it impacts his current job now.
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AZuser View Post
From what I have read and other passenger account of the event, since no one volunteered the gate agent stated the computer would randomly choose 4 people. So he wasn't singled out, he was randomly chosen, unless United's algorithm doesn't like Yumcha's people.

United handled the situation wrong, they could have, not overbooked, offered more money, or put the flight crew on another jet or hell charter a private one. I don't think any of those are illegal. If they didn't give him a written statement of who is bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn’t, that's probably a fine, but again not illegal.

United's CEO sure as hell could have addressed it better to. I think if anything, the Airport Police Dept and specifically the officer that lunged as him are at fault and should be responsible for damages. But I can still see them say he was refusing to comply with authorities and caused passengers to be fearful or posed a danger to other passengers with his behavior.

I think the guy has a case, but it's going to be a long one. If a woman who spilled coffee on her hoo hah from McDs' can get a big payout, then maybe he will to.

It's interesting to see the media spin this so many ways, with legging gate, they were united employees but the internet storm and media downplayed that. With this all the blame is on United and virtually no one is saying ran back into the plane, to the back and held on before he had to be removed by police again. How is that ok that he ran back onto the plane?

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Old 04-11-2017, 03:55 PM
  #154  
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WHAT do YOU mean Yumcha's people?

The whole issue is UA should have done that at the GATE. once the passengers boarded the plane, it became a nightmare.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by oo7spy View Post
It seems like a major detail that is being thrown around but not exactly highlighted with any certainty was this man leaving the aircraft and then getting back on. If true, that could change the whole outcome. Why don't we know for sure what happened?
Yup. This is a huge mystery. They took all that effort to drag him out...and then he just waltzes back in.....definitely will be a focal point of investigation for sure.

Originally Posted by cM3go View Post
From what I have read and other passenger account of the event, since no one volunteered the gate agent stated the computer would randomly choose 4 people. So he wasn't singled out, he was randomly chosen, unless United's algorithm doesn't like Yumcha's people.

United handled the situation wrong, they could have, not overbooked, offered more money, or put the flight crew on another jet or hell charter a private one. I don't think any of those are illegal. If they didn't give him a written statement of who is bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn’t, that's probably a fine, but again not illegal.

United's CEO sure as hell could have addressed it better to. I think if anything, the Airport Police Dept and specifically the officer that lunged as him are at fault and should be responsible for damages. But I can still see them say he was refusing to comply with authorities and caused passengers to be fearful or posed a danger to other passengers with his behavior.

I think the guy has a case, but it's going to be a long one. If a woman who spilled coffee on her hoo hah from McDs' can get a big payout, then maybe he will to.

It's interesting to see the media spin this so many ways, with legging gate, they were united employees but the internet storm and media downplayed that. With this all the blame is on United and virtually no one is saying ran back into the plane, to the back and held on before he had to be removed by police again. How is that ok that he ran back onto the plane?
The legging case I am 100% behind UAL. Those were flying on UAL's dime as part of UAL's family travel policy and should've known the dress code. (Whether the dress code is appropriate as part of UAL's policy is another discussion/debate).

This incident, as I've said before, does NOT appear to be an oversold flight NOR does it appear to be denial of boarding. NEITHER of these happened. The plane, AFAIK, were 100% booked. The only issue came when UAL needed to put UAL employees on that flight, thereby need to bump passengers.

The passengers were already seated/boarded the plane. So the whole policy about denial of boarding does not apply, seems to me, since they were already boarded.Of course it is appropriate to remove disruptive passengers (as has been done before) but when the source of disruption is UAL itself and the method of removal was obviously heinous...it's just disaster for all involved.

Originally Posted by oonowindoo View Post
WHAT do YOU mean Yumcha's people?

The whole issue is UA should have done that at the GATE. once the passengers boarded the plane, it became a nightmare.
Seriously. This is why I think airlines try to incentivize people to NOT board a plane....once you sit down you can have situation like this happen. I've seen many many people volunteering to give their seats with proper incentive...but never seen or heard of a passenger being removed due to no fault/cause of his own.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Yumcha View Post
Sparda kick.



"THIS IS...UNITED!" *kick*
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:51 PM
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4 people were asked to get off said plane for compensation 3 of them did and got paid, the 4th... well he got an ass whipping that he will never forget.... And for the record United did not whip this man's ass the CPD O'Hare division did...

oh, and telling people you are going to call your lawyer.... priceless...
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Yumcha View Post
Sparda kick.



"THIS IS...UNITED!" *kick*
Actually, that might just work.... someone needs to do the gif.
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by YeuEmMaiMai View Post
4 people were asked to get off said plane for compensation 3 of them did and got paid, the 4th... well he got an ass whipping that he will never forget.... And for the record United did not whip this man's ass the CPD O'Hare division did...

oh, and telling people you are going to call your lawyer.... priceless...
I actually agree with you on principle since my first reply.

But the issue is.... Legal or not is one thing, bad PR ultimately is hurting UA's business regardless if UA followed the SOP or not.
It does not matter if UA is right or wrong, they should have handled it better.... for their own sake, since we all know US airlines give rats ass about their customers anyways.
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:13 PM
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I think Chod hit the nail on the head. This guy was not denied boarding, he was forcibly removed form his seat after he boarded, sat down, put on his seat belt, read the safety information card in the seat back pocket and used a wet wipe to wipe off the tray (that he subsequently stowed for takeoff).

Sure, United could have upped the incentive, but they also could have bought their crew seats on a different airline's flight, even first class seats (that often go unused) at a lower cost than what this will eventually settle out to.
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