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Old 03-19-2018, 12:34 PM
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Oops!

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/t...-fatality.html

Self-Driving Uber Car Kills Arizona Pedestrian

March 19, 2018

A woman in Tempe, Ariz., died after being hit by a self-driving car operated by Uber, in what appears to be the first known death of a pedestrian struck by an autonomous vehicle on public roads.

The Uber vehicle was in autonomous mode with a human safety driver at the wheel when it struck the woman, who was crossing the street outside of a crosswalk, the Tempe police said in a statement. The episode occurred overnight, although the authorities did not specify whether it was late Sunday or early Monday. The woman was not publicly identified.

An Uber spokeswoman said the company was “fully cooperating” with the local authorities. The company said it had suspended testing of its self-driving cars in Tempe, Pittsburgh, San Francisco and Toronto.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:57 PM
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:14 PM
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Operator of self-driving Uber had a history of traffic violations | Daily Mail Online

Me thinks Rafaela (the "driver") used to be Rafael... His ticket from 2008 lists "M" as gender.

They showed this pic and kept saying "she" and wifey and i were like "Wait, hwhat???"

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Old 03-21-2018, 04:30 PM
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Not that there is anything wrong with that...
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:49 PM
  #125  
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She needs a shave.

I guess I was wrong when I assumed that the people they put in these cars were closer to engineers than homeless.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:31 PM
  #126  
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Here's the dashcam that was just released by the PD from the POV of the Tesla:

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Old 03-21-2018, 08:42 PM
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Doesn't look like the person just popped out in front of the car to me as some reports have stated. It was very dark so the car's cameras and co-pilot (who was busy looking down at his/her phone) likely didn't see the person crossing. Cameras need to have night vision built into them or something.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:01 PM
  #128  
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Or people shouldn’t cross highways at night with hoodies on. We had a member here hit a “pedestrian” crossing a highway at night. You’re not going to avoid this completely whether it is a dog, deer, or human standing in the road at night. Swerving and hitting a street light pole or a tree is not an option, and you can’t stop two tons on a dime.

If that lady wasn’t jay walking, she wouldn’t have died.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:00 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by oo7spy View Post
Youíre not going to avoid this completely whether it is a dog, deer, or human standing in the road at night. Swerving and hitting a street light pole or a tree is not an option, and you canít stop two tons on a dime.
Could this have been avoided? Probably not. But had the car's operator been paying attention, s/he could have stepped on the brakes and swerved to the left. The car did neither.

Was the person jay walking? Reports I've read say the collision occurred at the intersection of Mill Ave and Curry Road. Car was traveling northbound on Mill Ave? Looks like there are cross walks there.




Watching the low quality video (visibility may have been better with human eye than what we're seeing through YouTube video), I noticed the pedestrian's shoes about 2 seconds before impact. Not only was the left lane clear, but a 3rd lane to turn left opened up too. The driver could have swerved to the left and turned left onto Washington St to avoid hitting the pedestrian. Better to hit a pole or tree than a pedestrian. Maybe the pedestrian could have survived if some type of avoidance effort was made.

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Old 03-21-2018, 10:28 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by AZuser View Post
Better to hit a pole or tree than a pedestrian.
The rest of your post is all hypothetical, but this is absolutely wrong. Who had the right of way? Answer that, and you will know who deserves to be protected. A head on collision to an immovable object is not an option that should ever be considered.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:30 AM
  #131  
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Sheís clearly jay walking and your map shows it.

You can see theyíre coming up to the intersection, but not quite there.




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Old 03-22-2018, 01:32 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by AZuser View Post
Doesn't look like the person just popped out in front of the car to me as some reports have stated. It was very dark so the car's cameras and co-pilot (who was busy looking down at his/her phone) likely didn't see the person crossing. Cameras need to have night vision built into them or something.
and how do you know he/she/it was looking a phone? Couldíve been diagnostic info or whatever
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:49 AM
  #133  
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Lots of trees in that area. You could easily die hitting one to avoid this guy.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:17 AM
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I would like to know:
1. Did the car's Lidar/etc. detect the pedestrian and simply fail to take corrective action, or
2. Did the car calculate risk and determine that it was less risky overall to hit the pedestrian than to swerve into an empty lane to the left to try to avoid the person?

Basically, did the car's technology fail or succeed?
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:26 AM
  #135  
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I can’t imagine how the car would correctly predict the collision and not apply the brakes. That seems to be a failure on the car’s part given the info we have now. I don’t think the car could’ve completely avoided the collision just with braking, but it doesn’t seem like it started braking as soon as it should have been able to.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:28 AM
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I will wait for actual facts/answers to my questions from Uber and the NTSB...
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:56 AM
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Yea lots of unknowns.

lets not jump to conclusions.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:43 PM
  #138  
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Don't kno what the driver was doing, could have been sleep, texting, or doing something related to diagnostic info like stated above.

Crashing into a tree could have killed the person behind the wheel.
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:06 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by stogie1020 View Post
I will wait for actual facts/answers to my questions from Uber and the NTSB...

Then you sir have no place on the inter web!
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Then you sir have no place on the inter web!
I thought you were nuts...


The thing is, crashing into a tree is a possibility. Hitting the pedestrian was a statistical probability. I have to think that, had the car's system been working properly, it would have weighed the 100% chance of injury-causing collision against the much smaller chance of vehicle/passenger harm through avoidance maneuvers and swerved/braked.

The fact that Tempe PD said there were no skid marks makes me think that the car's systems (and the "driver") both completely failed.
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mizouse View Post
and how do you know he/she/it was looking a phone? Couldíve been diagnostic info or whatever
It was looking down. It isn't suppose to be looking down. Safety drivers aren't techs so there's no reason for a safety driver to be looking at any diagnostic info or anything else for that matter except the road.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-op...ord-1521740349

The fatal crash involving an Uber Technologies Inc. self-driving car this week puts a spotlight on the test drivers in robot vehicles, after Tempe, Ariz., police released a video Wednesday that showed the operator wasnít watching the road in the moments before the crash.

Test operators, also known as safety drivers, are trained to keep monitoring the road so they can take the wheel or hit the brake when autonomous vehicles, which are still in test mode, act erratically.

The driver in the Uber car on Sunday, whom police identified as Rafael Vasquez, was looking down for several seconds as the car was moving along at about 40 miles an hour, the video shows.

Test operators of self-driving cars generally keep their hands loosely around the steering wheel and right foot at the ready, in order to take control quickly if needed.​

The fact that the driver wasnít looking at the road just before the impact on Sunday raises questions about whether drivers are properly equipped to keep robot cars safe
during a period when companies are testing the vehicles in pilot-type programs.

The life of an Uber test driver - Mar. 21, 2018

Why would a self-driving car have a human behind the wheel?

Automakers, tech companies and startups are all developing self-driving cars, but the tech is far from perfect. Companies hire human test drivers to sit behind the wheel of self-driving vehicles and take over when necessary, say, if a car's sensors fail to recognize a bicyclist, pedestrian or other vehicle -- or if the software system crashes.

What does a self-driving car test driver do?

Generally, a test driver sits behind the wheel and "ghost drives" the vehicle for six to eight hours a day. Some test drivers hover their foot above the brake pedal, so they're ready to intervene quickly if needed. The test driver also monitors the vehicle's progress. If the car or truck finds itself in a tough spot, he or she will take manual control of the vehicle.

Test drivers do not require advanced degrees in engineering or computer science

"For the most part, the people doing the rides have just been trained -- they're not engineers, they're not vehicle engineers," said Jeffrey Wishart, Ph.D., a clinical assistant professor of automotive systems at Arizona State University.

What qualifications do I need to be a self-driving test driver?

That varies depending on the state and company.

Generally, a driver's license and a good driving record are all that's required. California requires that self-driving companies maintain a training program for its test drivers.

Some job postings reviewed by CNN look for drivers with previous delivery experience, the ability to type over 50 words per minute and conduct basic vehicle checks. Military experience is considered a plus -- a large subset of Uber's test drivers have military backgrounds, a spokesperson for the company told CNN.

Uber, for example, requires individuals to undergo three weeks of training, including a manual driver test, written assessment, as well as classroom and public road training.

The program must also include defensive driver training
, such as experience recovering from hazardous driving situations.

Some companies go as far as to test a driver's reaction time before hiring them, since test drivers need to respond quickly if the vehicle makes a mistake.

https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-self-...gh-test-track/

Behind the wheel of the ride-hailing company's self-driving cars are "safety drivers." They're responsible for taking control if anything happens.

Before Rick McKahan could even get behind the wheel of one of Uber's self-driving cars as a "safety driver," he had to spend days driving around a small simulated city in Pennsylvania, handling corners and dodging obstacles.

At the ride-hailing company's autonomous vehicle training facility on the banks of the city's lush, green Monongahela River, aka "The Mon," Uber's self-driving cars learn to navigate the roads. And prospective safety drivers spend three weeks learning to operate the robo-cars -- Ford Fusions and Volvo XC90s -- so they can take over when needed.

"When we simulate real world experiences, we make that the worse-case scenario," said McKahan, a 28-year-old who was an oil and gas professional before he joined Uber last year to become a vehicle operator trainer. "When they get off the test track and get onto the public road, that actually seems easier than the first week of training."

As self-driving cars circle around grassy knolls and past parked cars at the closed-course facility, passenger doors suddenly fly open to test whether vehicles will safely steer out of the way. Jaywalking zombielike mannequins scoot out in front of moving automobiles to teach the cars to stop for pedestrians before it's too late.

Self-driving cars use a series of sensors, lasers and cameras to "see" their surroundings and detect traffic, pedestrians, bicyclists and other obstacles.

Anyone with a clean driving record can sign up to be one of Uber's hundreds of vehicle operators, but applicants must first go through a series of driving tests in a regular car. If they pass those and get through the interview process, they'll next enter Uber's three-week training period.

Week one of training includes classroom instruction, exams and supervised driving at the test track. In weeks two and three, trainees go out onto public roads but only on preselected routes with an experienced operator, aka a backseat driver.

"We have a very strict process for bringing drivers onto our program," McKahan said. "Part of that process is with a professional driving company where they learn how to operate a vehicle in situations that might be less than ideal."
Based on this persons background, Uber shouldn't have hired this person. This person was slacking off.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:06 PM
  #142  
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I'm just saying how did you know it was a phone "it" was looking at? Could've been anything

Last edited by Mizouse; 03-22-2018 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:09 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by Doom878 View Post
Lots of trees in that area. You could easily die hitting one to avoid this guy.
Lots of trees in area. But based on video and where pedestrian became visible and where collision occurred, there were no trees to the left. The car cleared the section of trees. If driver swerved left and slammed on brakes, car would have hopped curb and gone into an empty area or hit the bushes ahead.

Originally Posted by Mizouse View Post




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Old 03-22-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mizouse View Post
I'm just saying how did you know it was a phone "it" was look at? Could've been anything
Yes, it could've not been a phone (I'd say odds are very likely it was a phone though).

Still doesn't change the fact that the safety driver wasn't suppose to be looking down. Eyes should have been on the road at all times and hands over steering wheel.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:15 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by AZuser View Post
Yes, it could've not been a phone (I'd say odds are very likely it was a phone though).

Still doesn't change the fact that the safety driver wasn't suppose to be looking down. Eyes should have been on the road at all times and hands over steering wheel.
im just arguing semantics for the sake of arguing
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:43 PM
  #146  
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There is an entire empty lane to the left of the pedestrian that the car could have swerved into in order to miss the person. If the sensors were working the car should have known the lane to the left was empty...
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by stogie1020 View Post
There is an entire empty lane to the left of the pedestrian that the car could have swerved into in order to miss the person. If the sensors were working the car should have known the lane to the left was empty...
Indeed. In this case, it appears any human would not be able to react fast enough....and this is where technology SHOULD come in and be able to save lives as they can react super fast and make quick decisions....
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:15 PM
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You have to consider the fact that a human has to write code for the computer to make the best decision in every situation. The unexpected obstacle was moving toward the path of the car from the left. Why would the car swerve left? What if the obstacle stopped moving toward the car from the left after it started a maneuver in that direction? The headlines would read, “Self driving car swerved into pedestrian in adjacent lane.” The only viable option for a computer to make in that split second (other than brake ) is to swerve right, up onto the curb. What’s on the other side of the curb? Who knows. Soft ground which will pull the car to the right drastically? Should automated cars jump curbs to avoid jaywalkers? What if another pedestrian is out of the sensable range of the cars LIDAR? “Automated car kills pedestrian on sidewalk swerving from jaywalker.”

A jaywalker was struck by a vehicle. It happens every day. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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Old 03-22-2018, 10:47 PM
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^sigh...
Clearly you have never taken any serious driving instruction that involves collision avoidance.

If you are in a moving object and are about to hit another moving object, (and no other obstructions are present) you should swerve toward the place the other moving object is/just was. It's not going to be there in a split second because it too is moving, and no one reverses movement fast enough for it to suddenly go backwards.

Aim for where they are/were, when you get there, they will not be there anymore.

Hence, swerve left one lane.

If your hands are at 9 and 3, you simply throw the wheel left until your elbows meet, then throw it back to the right until they meet again and you have just moved one lane in the blink of an eye. Start at 20 mph and work your way up to doing it at 50-60. Great collision avoidance maneuver.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:08 PM
  #150  
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i dunno, may not always be the case, but I've seen plenty of people either stop in their tracks, jump back or run back to where they came from to avoid getting hit by something.

i would think maybe its a physiological(?) thing in that a person would think "hey where I came from was safe, so it should be safe to go back there"


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Old 03-22-2018, 11:13 PM
  #151  
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I question how safe it is for a large SUV to be swerving at high speed.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:19 PM
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Looking at the Volvo XC90 and the section of the vehicle that came into contact with the pedestrian (passenger half), the car/driver didn't even have to be 100% in the left lane to avoid the impact.

If the car had swerved just a little bit and was only half way over, the pedestrian might have been okay or had minor injuries?




But yeah, police report will be an interesting read.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dopeboy1 View Post
I question how safe it is for a large SUV to be swerving at high speed.
45 MPH zone, so not really high speed and the probability of death to the occupant even if it flipped is bound to be less than the probability of death for a head on with a pedestrian.

This is all math.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dopeboy1 View Post
I question how safe it is for a large SUV to be swerving at high speed.
It was reported to be traveling around 38-40 MPH. Volvo XC90 isn't going to tip over like a Suzuki Samurai

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Old 03-23-2018, 07:17 AM
  #155  
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by stogie1020 View Post
^sigh...
Clearly you have never taken any serious driving instruction that involves collision avoidance.

If you are in a moving object and are about to hit another moving object, (and no other obstructions are present) you should swerve toward the place the other moving object is/just was. It's not going to be there in a split second because it too is moving, and no one reverses movement fast enough for it to suddenly go backwards.

Aim for where they are/were, when you get there, they will not be there anymore.

Hence, swerve left one lane.

If your hands are at 9 and 3, you simply throw the wheel left until your elbows meet, then throw it back to the right until they meet again and you have just moved one lane in the blink of an eye. Start at 20 mph and work your way up to doing it at 50-60. Great collision avoidance maneuver.
Youíre right. I havenít taken a collision avoidance maneuver class. I just watched the video. I donít see a point in that video where I would ever feel comfortable going left.

Do you have a link to any tutorial that claims we should swerve toward humans if trying to avoid them? Iíve only heard of your theory in NASCAR.

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Old 03-23-2018, 07:49 AM
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How many other people were crossing the road behind the lady who got hit?




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Old 03-23-2018, 12:45 PM
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Just ban self driving cars.

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Old 03-23-2018, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Flipster23 View Post
Just ban Uber.



Knowing them, they probably took short cuts somewhere like they always do.

Uber's probably like, "If they had let us keep the Waymo technology and data we swiped from Google, this wouldn't have happened"
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by oo7spy View Post

Youíre right. I havenít taken a collision avoidance maneuver class. I just watched the video. I donít see a point in that video where I would ever feel comfortable going left.

Do you have a link to any tutorial that claims we should swerve toward humans if trying to avoid them? Iíve only heard of your theory in NASCAR.
The left lane is clear and empty the entire way, WTF are you talking about?

And don't be (as usual) obtuse. I clearly said swerve toward where the person was comping form, since they are unlikely to go back there... You really need a hobby or something.
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