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Boeing 737 MAX 8 Crashes: Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines

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Boeing 737 MAX 8 Crashes: Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines

 
Old 10-29-2018, 12:19 AM
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Boeing 737 MAX 8 Crashes: Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46014463

Lion Air crash: Boeing 737 plane crashes in sea off Jakarta

5 minutes ago

A Lion Air Boeing 737 passenger plane with 188 people on board has crashed into the sea shortly after taking off from the Indonesian capital, Jakarta.

Flight JT 610 was on a scheduled flight to Pangkal Pinang, the main town in the Bangka Belitung Islands.

It lost contact with ground control a few minutes after take-off, and was last tracked crossing the sea - it is unclear if there are any survivors.

The plane was a Boeing 737 MAX 8, a brand new type of aircraft.

"The plane crashed into water about 30 to 40m deep," Search and Rescue Agency spokesman Yusuf Latif told AFP news agency. "We're still searching for the remains of the plane."



At a news conference, officials said the plane had been carrying 178 adults, one infant and two babies, as well as two pilots and five cabin crew. However, there are conflicting reports on the exact number of people on board.

What happened?

Flight JT 610 took off from Jakarta at 06:20 local time on Monday morning (23:30 GMT on Sunday).

It was due to arrive at Depati Amir airport in Pangkal Pinang an hour later but about 13 minutes into the flight, authorities lost contact with the plane.

The pilot had asked to return to Jakarta's Soekarno-Hatta airport, the head of Pangkal Pinang's search and rescue office, Danang Priandoko, told local news outlet Kompas.

The head of Indonesia's disaster agency, Sutopo Purwo Nugroho, has tweeted images which he said showed debris and personal belongings that came from the aircraft and had been found floating in the sea.




He also shared a video he said had been taken from a tugboat off Karawang, just east of Jakarta, which appeared to show floating debris and an oil slick.

Debris was also seen near an offshore oil refinery operated by state-owned energy firm Pertamina, an official from the firm said.

What do we know about this aircraft?

Lion Air said in a statement to the BBC that the pilot of the crashed plane was experienced, with more than 6,000 flight hours.

The aircraft was reported to be a Boeing 737 MAX 8, a model only in commercial use since 2016.

Lion Air said the aircraft involved in the crash was made in 2018 and has only been operated by the airline since 15 August this year.

Meant for short-haul travel, the single-aisle plane can fit a maximum of 210 passengers. The plane serving Lion Air flight JT 610 was configured to seat 189 passengers, said aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman.

He told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including difficulties maintaining a level flight.

How is Lion Air's safety record?

Indonesia, a vast archipelago, is heavily reliant on air travel, but many of its airlines have a poor safety record.

Lion Air is Indonesia's largest low-cost carrier, operating flights domestically as well as a number of international routes in South East Asia, Australia and the Middle East.

Established in 1999, it has had issues of safety and poor management in the past and was banned from flying into European airspace until 2016.

In 2013, Lion Air flight 904 crashed into the sea on landing at Bali's Ngurah Rai International Airport. All 108 people on board survived. In 2004, flight 538 from Jakarta crashed and broke up on landing at Solo City, killing 25 people.

In 2011 and 2012 there was a spate of incidents where pilots were found in possession of methamphetamines, in one incident hours before a flight.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:39 AM
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Ok, will fallow...
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Old 10-29-2018, 11:42 AM
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Old 10-30-2018, 08:30 AM
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Old 10-30-2018, 10:46 AM
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Reading up on this particular plane, it sounds like the flight prior to the crash also had mechanical problems....If Lion Air failed to execute the proper maintenance/repairs, wow...they have blood on their hands.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:07 AM
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I was reading a few articles and apparently Lion AIr has been pretty notorious for crashing planes.. :what;




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Old 10-30-2018, 03:33 PM
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:43 PM
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ers-1542082575

Boeing Withheld Information on 737 Model, According to Safety Experts and Others

Data related to a new flight-control feature suspected of playing a role in crash in Indonesia

Nov. 12, 2018 11:16 p.m. ET

Boeing Co. withheld information about potential hazards associated with a new flight-control feature suspected of playing a role in last month’s fatal Lion Air jet crash, according to safety experts involved in the investigation, as well as midlevel FAA officials and airline pilots.

The automated stall-prevention system on Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 models — intended to help cockpit crews avoid mistakenly raising a plane’s nose dangerously high — under unusual conditions can push it down unexpectedly and so strongly that flight crews can’t pull it back up. Such a scenario, Boeing told airlines in a world-wide safety bulletin roughly a week after the accident, can result in a steep dive or crash
— even if pilots are manually flying the jetliner and don’t expect flight-control computers to kick in.

That warning came as a surprise to many pilots who fly the latest models for U.S carriers. Safety experts involved in and tracking the investigation said that at U.S. carriers, neither airline managers nor pilots had been told such a system had been added to the latest 737 variant — and therefore aviators typically weren’t prepared to cope with the possible risks.

“It’s pretty asinine for them to put a system on an airplane and not tell the pilots who are operating the airplane, especially when it deals with flight controls,” said Capt. Mike Michaelis, chairman of the safety committee for the Allied Pilots Association, which represents about 15,000 American Airlines pilots. “Why weren’t they trained on it?”

One Federal Aviation Administration manager familiar with the details said the new flight-control systems weren’t highlighted in any training materials or during lengthy discussions between carriers and regulators about phasing in the latest 737 derivatives.

Boeing declined to immediately answer specific questions Monday. “We are taking every measure to fully understand all aspects of this incident, working closely with the investigating team and all regulatory authorities involved,” the company said in a statement. “We are confident in the safety of the 737 MAX.”

On Monday, an FAA statement reiterated that the agency had mandated flight manual changes to emphasize proper pilot responses to the new flight-control systems. “The FAA will take further action if findings from the accident investigation warrant,” the statement noted, but declined to comment further.

Boeing marketed the MAX 8 partly by telling customers it wouldn’t need pilots to undergo additional simulator training beyond that already required for older versions, according to industry and government officials. One high-ranking Boeing official said the company had decided against disclosing more details to cockpit crews due to concerns about inundating average pilots with too much information — and significantly more technical data — than they needed or could digest.

Minutes after takeoff from Jakarta in good weather, Lion Air Flight 610 experienced problems with airspeed indicators and a related system that feeds data to computers about the angle of the nose. The crash killed all 189 people on board.

Investigators haven’t described the precise sequence of events that caused the twin-engine jet to plummet into the Java Sea at a steep angle and high speed. But Indonesian authorities already have called for stepped-up pilot training and suggested they are delving into design issues. In the U.S. at least, substantial training changes will have to wait until new flight simulators are delivered to carriers.

The focus of the probe is shifting away from its early emphasis on individual system malfunctions and suspected pilot mistakes, according to people tracking developments.

Instead, these people said, U.S. and Indonesian crash investigators increasingly are delving into the way the MAX 8’s automated flight-control systems interact with each other, and how rigorously the FAA and Boeing analyzed potential hazards in the event some of them malfunction and feed incorrect or unreliable data to the plane’s computers. Swiftly turning off the automated feature is the solution in such cases.

Earlier 737 versions have different stall-protection systems, that don’t automatically drive down the nose even when other functions of the plane’s autopilot are turned off. Yet operation of those older systems was highlighted in training over the years, and pilots had to memorize steps to counteract potentially dangerous unintended consequences. MAX 8 training materials don’t include a requirement to memorize the steps to turn off the stall-protection system.

Stepped-up scrutiny of the latest 737 MAX features applies to more than 200 of the models that have been delivered to customers around the world, including Southwest Airlines , American Airlines and United Airlines. Boeing’s 737 factory near Seattle currently churns out 52 planes a month.

“We’re pissed that Boeing didn’t tell the companies and the pilots didn’t get notice obviously, as well,” said Capt. Jon Weaks, president of Southwest Airlines Co.’s pilot union. “But what we need now is... to make sure there is nothing else Boeing has not told the companies or the pilots.”

Like Mr. Weaks, some FAA managers and industry officials aren’t satisfied with what they contend is Boeing’s belated candor.

Boeing is working on a software fix, according to industry and government officials, that would likely mitigate risks. On Saturday, the company went further than before in spelling out dangers pilots can face if they misinterpret or respond too slowly to counter automated commands.

In a message sent to all 737 operators, and reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, the Chicago plane maker explained in painstaking detail the engineering principles and operational parameters behind the latest automation.

That message was more detailed than the bulletin Boeing voluntarily issued earlier, alerting pilots about the potential hazard — and touching off debate over the stall-prevention system’s design. Within hours, the FAA followed up with its emergency directive mandating changes in flight manuals.

Such interim efforts “are very appropriate in the near term to increase pilot awareness,” said John Cox, a former 737 pilot and ex-crash investigator for North America’s largest pilots union who now consults on safety for carriers and business aviation.

Boeing’s latest communications with airlines prompted American’s union to alert its members. “This is the first description you, as 737 pilots, have seen,” the union pointedly told pilots in a memo, referring to the 737 MAX stall-prevention system. Noting the system wasn’t mentioned in American Airlines’ or Boeing manuals, the union memo added: “It will be soon.”

The ultimate way to counteract dangerous automated nose-down commands is basically the same for old and new systems, though checklists and procedures for the 737 MAX 8 entail more steps and take more time. Investigators and safety experts are convinced that as the emergency worsened, the Lion Air crew had barely seconds in which they could have diagnosed the problem and taken action to save the aircraft.

Shortly before the plane crashed, according to local Indonesian media reports, one of the pilots told air-traffic controllers about difficulties controlling the plane.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:46 PM
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Wtf.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:08 AM
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Pretty unreal Boeing would not inform the operators of their aircraft of that function/feature.
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL View Post
Pretty unreal Boeing would not inform the operators of their aircraft of that function/feature.
Agreed. Especially one that will override a pilot's input.
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Old 11-18-2018, 01:29 PM
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/lion-ai...ars-1542549600

Lion Air Crash Probe Eyes Sensor Hazards Stretching Back Years

Investigators are examining how Boeing heeded earlier warnings about flight-control-sensor failures similar to the one implicated in 737 MAX crash

Nov. 18, 2018 9:00 a.m. ET

Aviators around the globe have long recognized potential hazards of malfunctioning flight-control sensors similar to the one implicated in last month’s Lion Air jet crash. Now, investigators are examining how plane maker Boeing Co. heeded those earlier warnings.

The latest investigation has expanded to delve into whether Boeing — as well as regulators specifically responsible for certifying the sensor system — fully incorporated those earlier safety lessons into the final design of the Boeing 737 MAX 8, the model that crashed in Indonesia, according to industry and government officials.

The Federal Aviation Administration, which oversaw the design and testing of the suspect sensor and related hardware, has said it is reviewing risk analyses and pilot-training requirements originally developed by Boeing. These actions are part of the crash investigation led by Indonesian authorities, according to the agency.

Boeing didn’t respond to questions about how it assessed earlier incidents when designing the MAX’s flight-control systems.

Called angle-of-attack indicators, the system sends data to flight-control computers about how high or low a plane’s nose or wings are compared to level flight. But if erroneous information is transmitted in certain situations while pilots are flying manually, the plane’s computers will automatically and repeatedly push the nose down. Investigators have said publicly this is what they believe occurred on Lion Air Flight 610, because some apparent problem with the sensor system incorrectly indicated the plane was on an excessively steep climb at a relatively slow speed.

On MAX 8 models, under certain conditions, pilots may be unable to pull the plane out of a dive unless they react quickly and proceed to the most relevant portion of their emergency checklist. One fundamental question is how the FAA gave the green light for a system in which one malfunctioning sensor — called a “single point failure” in engineering lingo — can lead to a catastrophic dive.

Investigators haven’t determined exactly what role erroneous angle-of-attack data played in the Lion Air tragedy, and other potential malfunctions or factors may have contributed. In addition, since the crash, Boeing has said its flight manuals and training materials adequately addressed the risks, privately telling pilots and airlines that any pilot who follows required procedures can avoid a crash, according to government and industry officials familiar with the discussions.

In addition to sensor hardware, investigators also are looking into operation of separate software used to digitally process signals from sensors.

As far back as 2013, however, regulators on both sides of the Atlantic issued safety directives mandating emergency pilot responses to ensure that failures of the same type of sensors on long-range Airbus SE A330 and 340 models didn’t result in an uncontrolled dive. Concluding that in some cases an aircraft’s nose couldn’t be raised even with maximum pilot manual commands, regulators ordered that suspect parts be replaced.

The following year, the European Aviation Safety Agency issued an emergency order revising certain cockpit procedures to deal with blocked angle-of-attack sensors on thousands of Airbus wide-body and narrow-body jets. And just last month, U.S. regulators increased the number of Airbus A319 and A320 models included in a different safety directive also focused on the dangers of blocked sensors.

Those previous actions primarily covered angle-of-attack sensors that were blocked or rendered temporarily inoperative by icing. The Lion Air probe is assessing other potential causes for problems with the sensor.

Regarding Boeing aircraft, the FAA in 2013 proposed a safety directive mandating inspection and possible replacement of angle-of-attack sensors affecting a total of more than 1,000 747 jumbo jets and older 737 models. The agency determined malfunctioning sensors could result in false stall warnings to pilots during takeoffs.

As the latest investigation gains steam, safety experts increasingly are paying attention to the same category of dire consequences that confronted Airbus crews: forceful, automated nose-down commands while flying manually, which can be particularly dangerous if pilots are surprised and confused about how to counteract them.

Some of the data-processing units for angle-of-attack sensors and others measuring airspeed on the Lion Air jet were manufactured by Honeywell International Inc. A spokesman said the company has been contacted by the National Transportation Safety Board and is cooperating. The probe is expected to examine whether possible problems with those units may have contributed to the crash.

The sensors themselves were supplied by a United Technologies Corp. unit, which didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Introducing new systems, even those meant to enhance safety such as the MAX 8’s stall-protection features, can come with pitfalls as teething difficulties are addressed, according to safety experts.

When a previous upgrade to Boeing’s 737 plane entered service, it also created problems. A British Midland 737-400 crashed in England on Jan. 8, 1989, after an engine failure, killing 47 of the 126 people onboard. Investigators determined new cockpit instruments, though not the cause of the accident, made it more difficult for the crew to manage the situation. They recommended enhanced training for pilots.

“The challenge for manufacturers is to introduce the sorts of technology which have made aviation as safe as it is” while simultaneously “minimizing the conversion training that is required to fly different aircraft of the same family,” said Graham Braithwaite, who teaches safety and accident investigation at Britain’s Cranfield University.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:08 AM
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/cockpit...sh-11547444698

Cockpit Voice Recorder Recovered From Indonesia’s Lion Air Crash

Jan. 14, 2019 12:44 a.m. ET

JAKARTA, Indonesia—Divers recovered the cockpit voice recorder from a Lion Air jetliner that crashed in the Java Sea in October, officials said, a potentially important step in helping to understand what happened in the minutes before the new Boeing 737 Max 8 plane went down.

The Indonesian navy said the recorder was recovered Monday about 160 feet from where the plane’s other black box, a flight-data recorder, was found soon after the crash Oct. 29. The plane crashed shortly after takeoff on a domestic flight from Jakarta, killing all 189 people aboard.

Navy spokesman Agung Nugroho said Indonesian divers found the recorder in 25 feet of mud. The device was being transported to crash investigators in Jakarta. Investigators hope it will shed light on the flight’s final moments, when pilots struggled to counter an anti-stall system and keep the plane from diving.
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Old 03-10-2019, 04:38 PM
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/ethiopi...bi-11552207841

Ethiopian Airlines Jet Crashes En Route to Nairobi

March 10, 2019

NAIROBI, Kenya—An Ethiopian Airlines jet crashed en route to Nairobi from Addis Ababa, killing all 157 aboard — including eight Americans and 18 Canadians — raising scrutiny of the new Boeing 737 MAX 8 model, which was involved in another deadly crash last year.

The Ethiopian Airlines pilot reported an unspecified problem with the plane shortly after taking off on Sunday and asked to return to Addis Ababa’s Bole International Airport. Six minutes after departure, communication was lost. The plane then plunged to the ground near Bishoftu, just south of Addis Ababa.

According to flight-tracking website Flightradar24, the plane suffered unstable vertical speed, indicating it didn’t climb smoothly. It also suffered a loss of altitude shortly after takeoff. The plane recovered height before contact was lost.

The aircraft had no reported problems and had arrived in Addis Ababa on Sunday morning from Johannesburg. It had undergone routine major maintenance checks on Feb. 4, Kenyan Transport Minister James Macharia said.

Boeing Co.’s 737 MAX 8 is an updated version of the U.S. plane maker’s best selling single-aisle plane, and was delivered to its first customer in May 2017. The model suffered its first fatal crash in Indonesia on Oct. 29 of last year. Accident investigators said that plane, operated by Lion Air, suffered unreliable sensor information before it went down in the Java Sea, killing 189 people.



But because they happened so closely together and involved the same brand-new model, a former Federal Aviation Administration official said regulators likely would focus initial fact-finding efforts in part on potential relationships between the accidents before deciding whether to take any additional steps.

“There’s going to be a lot of attention on this,” the former FAA official said. “These are incredibly rare events.”

Accident investigators are still months away from determining the precise cause of the Lion Air crash. In an interim report, they said the crew battled inaccurate sensor information, a cascade of warnings and an automatic flight-control system that repeatedly pushed down the nose of the plane during the 11 minutes from takeoff until the crash.

The Lion Air accident has focused attention on a new stall-prevention system Boeing devised for the plane. Investigators also raised questions about whether proper maintenance was conducted on the system. The stakes are high for Boeing because the 737 MAX is its best selling plane and backbone of future production plans.

The Chicago-based plane maker has emphasized that its manuals included a manual procedure that turns off the stall-prevention system, known by its acronym MCAS, and prevents it from automatically pushing the plane’s nose down.

Rapidly expanding Ethiopian Airlines has enjoyed a relatively good safety record, particularly in recent years. It has been a standout in Africa, buying lots of new planes—including Boeing 787 Dreamliners and the Airbus SE A350 long-haul plane—and hiring top-flight pilots.

The airline has been pushing hard to elevate its international reputation, positioning itself as an alternative to luxury Middle East carriers like Emirates Airline and trying to turn itself into a major link between Africa and the rest of the world. Underscoring the high regard it enjoys among Western airlines, it is a code-share partner United Continental Holdings Inc., the Chicago-based U.S. airline. Both are members of the Star Alliance.

Mr. Macharia said in addition to the American and Canadian fatalities, French, Chinese and British nationals were on board the flight. The largest loss of life was from Kenya, with 32 deaths.

A number of those on board were headed to Nairobi for a global United Nations Environment Program summit. The U.N.’s World Food Program had multiple staff members on the flight, too, its boss, David Beasley, said.

The Sunday morning flight was very popular with international humanitarian workers in the region, who often shuttle between the two capitals that both serve as hubs for aid organizations working on crises and disasters in East Africa.

Mr. Gebremariam said it would be left to investigators to determine the cause of the crash and whether there is any link between the latest incident and Lion Air’s.

He said a very senior Ethiopian Air pilot with more than 8,000 flight hours experience was in command.

“He has been flying with an excellent flying record,” the airline boss said. The pilot joined Ethiopian in July 2010 and started captaining Boeing 737s in November. The plane that crashed had logged more than 1,200 flight hours, Mr. Gebremariam said.

Boeing said it was deeply saddened and was dispatching a technical team to assist in the Ethiopian government-led crash probe.

A spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board said the U.S. agency was sending a team of four staff members to Ethiopia to assist in the investigation.

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration said it is closely monitoring developments, and an agency spokesman said the FAA was in touch with the U.S. State Department and plans to join the NTSB in assisting the accident probe.

U.S. air-safety experts monitoring crash developments cautioned it is too early to draw conclusions, adding that the preliminary speed and altitude information could result from a variety of causes. Among the first questions investigators are likely to focus on, according to some of these experts, are engine performance and if the plane was being flown manually or on autopilot.

Airlines around the world will be waiting for an initial message from Boeing regarding the crash—which could come in the next few days—and whether investigators or the plane maker pass on information addressing safety issues relevant to other operators of 737 MAX jets.

Several major 737 MAX operators said they would continue to fly the plane as normal unless Boeing or regulators recommend changes.
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:19 PM
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Not looking good for the 737 MAX.
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:42 PM
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Holy damn. ANOTHER 737 MAX crash in a very similar fashion to Lion Air.

China grounds its entire fleet of 737 MAX.

Airline forums (Airliners.net and Flyertalk) a buzz with this information.

Boeing stock gonna be tanking like crazy tomorrow.

Also, can you imagine if the two planes were from American airlines?

Or hell, if another crash occured in 2019 with an American 737 MAX......
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:46 PM
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Fuck Boeing
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:22 PM
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:45 PM
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A 737 going into Houston had an engine fire.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by doopstr View Post
A 737 going into Houston had an engine fire.
NG. Not a MAX
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:51 PM
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737 has been a solid aircraft, what I wouldn't fly on is their latest iteration the MAX 8
They reported their latest software update that added an anti-stall feature is what's at issue.
Whether it's the software or poorly calibrated / inaccurate / faulty sensor.. it's claimed hundreds of lives at this point.
For Boeing to address the issue by trying to train pilots to counter the software is fucking asinine and they are solely at fault.
Fuck them. Should have been a recall rather than a warning.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:58 PM
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The Malaysian MAX 8 backlash was bad.. but I have a feeling this one is really going to be even bigger.
That plane was multi-national. Many of the victims had big business, political, educational, and humanitarian backgrounds.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/w...h-victims.html
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:02 PM
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I think it was 19 UN affiliated personnel trying to get to an assembly. Four of them had UN passports.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:25 PM
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Southwest has 34 737 Max 8s
American airlines has 24

Civil Aviation Administration of China has 94.


neither of them had issues.

also why no issues with the Max 9 variant



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Old 03-11-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mizouse View Post
Southwest has 34 737 Max 8s
neither of them had issues.
No issues that we know of. Southwest has been whipping on their mechanics lately because they have been having trouble getting planes in the air due to mechanical issues.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:57 PM
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FAA issued an AD in Nov, 2018 (2018-23-51) after the Lion Air Crash, but adherence to basic emergency procedures training should have prevented both accidents.

Runaway Stabilizer Trim:

1. Autopilot: Disengage
2. Stabilizer Trim Cutout Switch - Cutout


Initial and recurrent training covers all the aircraft BOLD FACE emergency procedures in addition to many other items.

This doesn't answer why MCAS is getting/perceiving faulty AOA indications. That is still an open question that the FAA and Boeing need to research/address.

There haven't been any US based accidents in MAX aircraft. What we don't know is if that's because no US based MAX 737 has run into the MCAS issue or if instances did happen, but aircrew training saved the day...I'd have to assume that the FAA and Boeing are pouring over maintenance logs and questioning MAX pilots to see if there is any record of runaway trim in US based MAX aircraft.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:17 PM
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IIRC, after the Lion Air crash, US pilots were furious because Boeing didn't disclose the new anti-stall feature and so US pilots weren't actually trained in those scenarios since they had no idea that system was on board in the first place. So not sure how much training would've helped there.

Also IIRC, the Lion Air was in fairly low altitude....aka they had mere seconds to diagnose and run through checklists...like Sully and the Miracle on the Hudson, sometimes you have to react super fast and that kind of super high stressful situation.....tough for any flight crew.....RIP to all who died
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:35 PM
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As far as emergency procedures training goes, it really doesn't matter what was causing the trim to run. Correctly following the BOLD FACE would have stopped the trim and then they could have manually trimmed using the trim wheel.

Yeah, easy to arm chair quarterback this, but I've been through this procedure 100's of times in the simulator. If the trim runs away, we run the BOLD FACE. We don't sit there and try to figure out why it's happening. That can be done later...

As far as Lion Air, they got up to ~5000'. I can only assume that they never used the trim cutout switch and tried to return to base all the while fighting runaway trim.

And yes, I think it was a mistake for Boeing not to include it, but again, proper adherence to emergency procedures should have prevented a crash...

I guess I need to also explain that usually yoke forces in the opposite direction will also stop the trim movement, but not when the trim movement is due to MCAS. That would be counter intuitive to the very reason MCAS was put in place.

Last edited by nfnsquared; 03-11-2019 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:48 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Mizouse View Post
Southwest has 34 737 Max 8s
American airlines has 24

Civil Aviation Administration of China has 94.


neither of them had issues.

also why no issues with the Max 9 variant



Do they have the software update though? It's not a mechanical issue. It's either the sensor or the firmware. In either case, I don't think the fail safe should be left up to the pilots to figure it out as it's nose diving. Good software architecture should cover every use case, especially faulty input.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:04 PM
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Boeing issues 737 Operations Manual Bulletin after Lion Air accident

https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/07/bo...-air-accident/ .

Didn't copy the text but pretty good tech explanation for the AD for the Lion crash


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Old 03-12-2019, 08:18 AM
  #31  
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Damn makes me not want to fly any airline that has these planes right now since you have no idea if you will get stuck on one. Although, if I read right most are used for longer internation flights so if I was flying regional probably wouldn't be on one.

Really shitty for Boeing here. In this day and age we should not be having plane crashes for new tech.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mizouse View Post
Southwest has 34 737 Max 8s
American airlines has 24
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:54 AM
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:28 PM
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...re-11552413489

Boeing to Make Key Change in 737 MAX Cockpit Software

MAX software change marks shift for Boeing design of anti-stall system

March 12, 2019

Boeing Co. is making an extensive change to the flight-control system in the 737 MAX aircraft implicated in October’s Lion Air crash in Indonesia, going beyond what many industry officials familiar with the discussions had anticipated.

The change was in the works before a second plane of the same make crashed in Africa last weekend—and comes as world-wide unease about the 737 MAX’s safety grows.

The change would mark a major shift from how Boeing originally designed a stall-prevention feature in the aircraft, which were first delivered to airlines in 2017.

U.S. aviation regulators are expected to mandate the change by the end of April.

Boeing publicly released details about the planned 737 MAX software update on its website late Monday. A company spokesman confirmed the update would use multiple sensors, or data feeds, in MAX’s stall-prevention system—instead of the current reliance on a single sensor.

The change was prompted by preliminary results from the Indonesian crash investigation indicating that erroneous data from a single sensor, which measures the angle of the plane’s nose, caused the stall-prevention system to misfire. Then, a series of events put the aircraft into a dangerous dive.

Focus on the update has taken on greater urgency as aviation regulators and airlines around the world have grounded their MAX fleets, following the Ethiopian crash over the weekend—despite no links being made between the two crashes by investigators.

The MAX software change is expected to take about an hour for each plane, a Boeing spokesman said Tuesday. He declined to offer other details about how the system would weigh the multiple data inputs.

“For the past several months and in the aftermath of Lion Air Flight 610, Boeing has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer,” Boeing said late Monday in a statement.

The investigation into the Oct. 29 Lion Air crash is continuing, but has focused on the stall-prevention system, apparent maintenance lapses and potential pilot error. Investigators have revealed little about the circumstances leading up to the Ethiopian crash, but have found cockpit voice and data recorders.

When the plane was first designed, engineers determined that using a single sensor—measuring what is technically known as the angle of attack—would be simpler and was in line with the plane maker’s long-held philosophy to keep pilots at the center of cockpit control, a person familiar with the matter said.

That earlier design of the system, known as MCAS, has puzzled some pilots and safety experts, who wondered why the system didn’t rely on multiple feeds.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nfnsquared View Post
As far as emergency procedures training goes, it really doesn't matter what was causing the trim to run. Correctly following the BOLD FACE would have stopped the trim and then they could have manually trimmed using the trim wheel.

Yeah, easy to arm chair quarterback this, but I've been through this procedure 100's of times in the simulator. If the trim runs away, we run the BOLD FACE. We don't sit there and try to figure out why it's happening. That can be done later...

As far as Lion Air, they got up to ~5000'. I can only assume that they never used the trim cutout switch and tried to return to base all the while fighting runaway trim.

And yes, I think it was a mistake for Boeing not to include it, but again, proper adherence to emergency procedures should have prevented a crash...

I guess I need to also explain that usually yoke forces in the opposite direction will also stop the trim movement, but not when the trim movement is due to MCAS. That would be counter intuitive to the very reason MCAS was put in place.
Yeah....certainly reasonable to also conclude pilots also had partial fault here as well.

And as with virtually all airplane crashes...it's a confluence of multiple factors coming together that ends in disaster.

Boeing and pilots world over are for sure gonna be up to date on this whole mess now....
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:10 PM
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Sad they didn't deploy things sooner
Cost of business
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:12 PM
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My opinion still holds, really shitty programming and use cases on their part
Terrible software architecture, they pretty much admit to it in that blurb
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:13 PM
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European Union and Indian bans 737 MAX from their airspace.

Southwest is largest 737 MAX operator and FAA/USA still deems the plane safe to fly. But looks like Southwest is bending to customer anger by letting ppl reschedule on another plane.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47536502

The European Union and India have banned the Boeing 737 Max from flying over their airspace to ensure passenger safety.

They join a long list of countries in suspending the plane, including the UK.

It comes after an Ethiopian Airlines plane crashed on Sunday, killing 157 people on board. It was the second fatal accident involving the 737 Max 8 model in less than five months.

US officials say the aircraft are still safe to fly.

However, the US Association of Flight Attendants-CWA union is now calling for the Federal Aviation Administration "to temporarily ground the 737 Max fleet in the US out of an abundance of caution".

India's Ministry of Civil Aviation announced that it would ground the Boeing 737-Max planes "immediately".

It said: "These planes will be grounded till appropriate modifications and safety measures are undertaken to ensure their safe operations."

It following a similar decision by the EU Aviation Safety Agency which said it is suspending the aircraft "as a precautionary measure".

Earlier today, the UK's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said it was banning the plane, joining other countries including China.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:13 PM
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Honestly, a robust solution would probably take an experienced tiger team about a week to make an update and release
No excuse for it to take Boeing so long
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
My opinion still holds, really shitty programming and use cases on their part
Terrible software architecture, they pretty much admit to it in that blurb
And probably lawyers for both sides are gonna be pretty busy with lot of work in years to come.

Wouldn't be surprised if huge settlements from Boeing in the future from the inevitable lawsuit that will come their way

Nightmare/riot will increase 1000x if a US-airline 737 MAX goes down....and can you imagine of both of those planes that went down were US airline with american passengers? I doubt the FAA would still deem them safe to fly....
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