DefMunkie

I'm going to my first Autocross in the TL this Sunday and was wondering what are the recommended tire pressures to keep the sidewall stiff enough on the OEM Michelins to not roll on the wheel?

This will be in Texas temps in the mid 90's

I've never Auto crossed a 4,000 lbs sedan around the sea of cones so just wanted to check with any owners who have any experience with this car.

4th gen - SH-AWD

Thanks

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

From the cars you own and have named it seems like you know what you're doing. Just factory spec pressure is good. Get a run or two in to get a better feel for how the car is reacting. Inflate or deflate based on that. Make sure your fluids are topped off and if you feel brake fade you may want to upgrade the pads for the next event. Stock fluids should be fine for autocross but anything longer than a minute or two of hard driving and you may want to consider upgrading the fluids.

My car is lighter than yours but you should be fine overall. Autocross doesn't really stress a car out that much unless you've loaded your car up which you shouldn't do anyway. Try to take all unnecessary weight out. Tech inspection is a farce sometimes so be sure to go over everything so that you know you're safe. Re-torque your wheels to spec when you are getting ready before your run. Also if you care about your paint, tape off the areas that may hit cones. It may end up scuffing your paint really bad and may need to be corrected later on which isn't a good thing since you're taking paint off your car.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Also love the fact that it seems you're after handling more than anything else. Touge's where it at!!!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

tire pressure is dependent on specific tires.
find out!

DefMunkie

Haha, thanks!!

I think I'm going to start at 38psi and go from there. At factory recommended 32psi on those tires I think the tires are going to roll to much over the wheel. I'll test that out with some chalk once I get to autocross.

I love the Touge!! We have some great roads here in central Texas that can compete with the best out there! That's where I got the bite for performance driving and tuning when I was younger. Most of my friends are high hp Wangan/TX2K types. As fun as that is nothing compares to the thrill of a mountain pass! As I got older and I started getting into road courses and autocross more. It's just a safer environment to go faster in with a great thrill! Power has always been the last mod for me, but when I build a car I keep power in mind.

Its all about the corner for me. One of the most satisfying feelings I've had is passing GT3 Porsches, Z06's etc around corners on tight technical roadcourses. Of course once we hit a straight they would walk way, but with enough tight corners and unorthodox lines you can stitch together a respectable lap. Not bad for an S2000 with HKS Hypermax coilovers, Tanabe Sustec sway bars bushings, some chassis braces and upgraded pads and rotors. I had a cold air intake, but as we all know bolt-on's do nothing for that F22 engine.

Since I've been playing on more road courses in Texas I realized that more power was necessary to compete, especially in the higher TT classes. That is the goal with the Corvette a somewhat budget friendly track and Touge monster. Right now having torque and the throttle to steer with is a whole new experience. So I'm not touching power anytime soon. Working on suspension and reliability items such as radiator, trans/diff cooler and oil pump. The car is wide enough to be very stable at high speeds and as slow as the steering is it's pretty nimble at the lower speed technical area's.

As for the Corolla...It's still a work in progress. FB Rx7 rear end, 3TC engine and roll cage. Great car but I currently don't have the time or funds to invest into her

The TL is my new to me daily so keeping her as close to stock in the goal. Probably going to throw some coilovers on her in the distant future and upgrade the brake pads and rotors. Passed that nothing really. I just want to throw around some corners and test her limits. Also trail braking a 4,000 lbs boat around some cones while keeping the the cars momentum sounds like a fun challenge. I guess we'll see.

DefMunkie

Yes, but you usually want to run a higher pressures on street tires at Autocross to keep the tire sidewall stiffer. The quick transitions will roll the tire over the wheel to much at stock pressure on a 4,000 lbs car.

I have the OEM all season Michellins on there and at 32 psi the sidewall has to much flex for autocross, even when warmed up to 35psi.

I just want to eliminate the guess work when I go out on Sunday, and check to see what other members are running when they go out. The last car I ran at autocross without race slicks was my old Fit on the OEM dunlops at 36psi.

I know I'm not going to be competitive, although I'm currently the only G Stock running , I just want to have fun and figure out how the SH-AWD system interacts with road under various conditions in a safe environment. Luckily I have the Corvette for competition.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

the 4G guys are old and dont race their cars.
looks like you'll be one of the first few that has autocrossed the TL.


Get better tires!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm running the Dunlop Direzza Star specs z1's at the moment and will switch to the hankook RS-3's soon.
I have a 3G TL and wish I had SHAWD.

Ive found that I lose traction when the pressure gets above 37psi.
but again, dependent on tires, and you know this.


and are you in the DFW area?
I'm in Houston.

DefMunkie

Haha, it's a mature responsible persons car.
Pimpin-TL mentioned he autocrossed his.

Yeah, I hate these OEM tires.... My next set will probably be the Toyo T1S. We don't need all season tires in central Texas. I always put summer performance max tires when possible. IMO tires have always been the most important suspension component. At one point I was running Toyo R888's and R1R's on the street on my S2000 year round and she was my daily. I was going through 5 full sets a year. That's when I decided that tire money would be better spent on a daily driver.

The Star Specs are great tires, they warm up quickly and maintain temps for a long time without getting to greasy. I've heard the RS3's are great on the street but overheat quickly on track. Not sure about autocross though.

Thanks for the heads up on psi, I'll report back after I'm done.

I'm in the San Antonio area. Let me know if you want come out for a Twisted Sisters drive. We had the Houston S2000 group come out and it was a blast.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Thats awesome. Yeah couple nice canyon roads here in SLC. Fun to drive most of the time. So far all I've done on mine is maintenance, switched out the brake and clutch lines to ss lines, changed brake pads, reduced the unsprung weight with lighter wheels. Also got the shifter feeling better with a short shifter and solid shift bushings.
What is nice about a car this size is the fact that you have to pay attention to those elements like trail braking, hitting the apex and rolling onto the power at just the right time because there is more car to handle while others don't pay attention to that using the car's straightline performance to save their butts. I prefer being the underdog and practicing great driving theory.
Next step is some decent suspension and get adjustable components for the wheels so they don't roll as much. Really really want those solid compliance bushings so I can increase the caster. I would like to reduce the weight but i prefer the prospect of a comfy sport tourer that can burn through a canyon too. Gotta get there soon!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Nice! I know pimpinTL well!
and actually the SA guys are having a meet this saturday.
I usually like to go for a whole weekend, including friday....but it was short notice for me.



and when is this twisted sisters cruise!?

p.s. that tire pressure is for the direzza's. you're gonna have to play the guessing game for your stock set!

Samba

Try 42 psi front and 35 psi rear on the oem Michelin all season tire as the starting point. I think that was what I used on my oem. But it was two years ago, not 100% sure. Check the marking on the sidewall after the 1st run and adjust accordingly. VSA off and you will not be disappointed with the SH-AWD system.

DefMunkie

Looking forward to your build thread! I'll be interested in your suspension tuning adventures.

DefMunkie

I'm gonna try to make it out this Saturday and meet some of the local owners! Actually looking forward to it.

Get a date set with your Htown crew and I'll co-ordinate with the San Antonio crew! Early October is usually great weather and the leaves change colors. Maybe we should start a thread in the Texas section? I'm new to this forum so I'm not sure what the best way to organize this will be with the locals.

DefMunkie

Thank you kind sir! Interested to see how this turns out!

SatinSilverAV6

iTrader: (2)

post a vid!

DefMunkie

If I can find someone who's willing to let me borrow a GoPro or record on on my cell I'll try try to get a video.

DefMunkie

Sorry no videos's....

Track was designed by a Corvette Z06 owner so it was a lot of high speed sections and slaloms along with 2 tight technical corners on either end. Track was also slightly wet from early morning rain with a few standing puddles and multiple surfaces to fight traction on.

All driving was done with Traction/VSA off and Car was in S using paddle shifters.

So I set my tires to 38psi starting off. Way to high for the TL, by the second sector in the off camber left hand sweeper tires felt very greasy and the rear end started to kick out on corner entry. I go full lock right and apply more gas to keep the momentum up, that was my first drift in the TL and she held very well easy to control with the throttle.

Once back in grid rear tire pressure had jumped to 42psi after that run.
I dropped rear tire pressure to 34psi and fronts to 35psi. Went smoothe from that point on. I was impressed with how well the the TL transitions weight and manages various surfaces. The SH-AWD system in those conditions made the car rotate similar to the 4 wheel steer system in the Honda Prelude and the Z32 Nissan.

I got 2nd in G Stock, beating Golf GTI's, and some Turbo Velosters. Unfortunately the Focus ST was quicker by about a 1 second, but they also had summer performance max tires and not all seasons. I'm sure with better tires and some mild suspension work I could have gained another 2 seconds.

The Corvettes I usually run with in SSP were a full 10 to 12 seconds faster :p

Overall it was great getting acquainted with the TL and learning the SH-AWD. People were impressed with how well the heaviest and biggest sedan out on course ran that day. Glad my daily driver is a fun car!

Some video from other drivers that day to give you an idea of the course:


I'll post some more as the gals and guys add them to youtube

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

told ya, you would have to guess on the psi!

glad you had fun and glad the TL performed well

DefMunkie

I think if the TL was my only car, I would definitely invest in modding her immediately. Start with suspension, a little stiffer but still comfortable on the streets, some sway bars, and polyurethane bushings. Slap on some summer performance max tires on some lighter weight wheels and that's it! Oh also pick up a 6 speed instead of the auto if my wife could drive a stick.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

a thicker rear sway bar was probably one of the best suspension mods, i ever did to my TL.

DefMunkie

So when are we scheduling the sisters drive?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

its getting cooler!!
next month sounds good!

DefMunkie

You got it!

Starting thread in the Texas section..........right meow

Samba

DefMunkie ... Good to know you had great time drifting and impressed some people there.

I had Michelin PSS on last summer. It was a great tire.

The venue of the autocross event that I went to was quit small, so the course layouts consisted of lot of tight turns and short straights. The car never get out of 2nd gear. I felt that the car gripped better with higher psi in the front. I ended up using 46psi front and 35 psi back. Well, I did feel that it was not right, but, it gave me better time. I will definitely take a new look at the tire pressure again next year and worked on my driving skill. I got overall 2nd in my C stock class in last summer. =)

Here is a video from my last event.

DefMunkie

Great to see and hear Samba! Impressive run!! Glad you had fun!
I ran 2 weekends ago ago in the TL since my Corvette isn't in racing form yet and was able to drum up some interest from the local TL group...4 members came out to watch and support and I gave them ride along, while one brave TSX came out and raced. Hopefully we should start seeing more TL's from my region come out.

Our region uses SCCA rules to class the cars so I am classed as G Street in my stock TL (All Stock Generation/model TL's are in G Street). I ran on new all season tires keeping all 4 tires at 36 PSI since it was mid 40's that morning. I was keeping competitive times with Golf GTI's and stock V6 mustangs also in G Street. The 2 Ford Focus ST's were almost 2 seconds ahead of every one in my G street... I think the SCCA will have redefine that specific cars classing next year, even the owners admit they're classed to low. I was able to run faster times than the higher classed G37 and G35 Sedans out there. A long with similar times to a 330 BMW, however after the BMW driver gets more comfortable with his car he should be able to pull some faster times.

Given the weight of the TL I was very impressed with the TL's turn in and nimbleness to transition its weight through the corners. With the newer all seasons I was able to hold throttle and accelerate out of turns better without the rear kicking out on me (YES the AWD TL will kick the rear out into a full lock slide if you have bald rear tires and TC off which is what happened at my first event). 2nd gear for most AutoX courses is a sweat spot. The stock brakes are excellent given the mass they have to control, I got very comfortable with them and started braking very late and very hard for my 2 fastest runs.

Overall I would like some upgraded sway bars and brakes since I doubt I will ever run summer performance tires on the TL.

Once again I don't have a GO Pro so here is the course from an S2000's perspective...there is some video of my car from an outside perspective I'll have to see if I can hunt it down.

Samba

I can't agree more. This boat handles quite well. I am impressed.

I plan to replace the oem brake pads/rotors after the winter. Any suggestions?

S2000 is a great car to drive.

Here is a video of a S2000 having fun drifting in an event.

Vlad_Type_S

iTrader: (3)

Cool!!!!!!!!! I just autocrossed my 3G TL for the first time - SCCA Chicago. They classed me in STC because of my exhaust mods (HFPC, j-pipe, catback). Otherwise my car is stock. There was only one other dude in this class with a heavily modded ZX2 escort and he was 9 seconds faster than I was.

I'm running Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 tires and I ran them at 39 Front/36 Rear psi. Although I'm not sure what it's supposed to feel/look like to know whether to adjust it up/down so I stuck with this for each run.

You guys obviously know a lot about tires... I don't know anything about them. What's the best way to select a tire? And how do I know how to find the right PSI?

I just did a quick search and found the Direzza ZIIs. Everyone seems to love these tires and they aren't that expensive. Why did you go to the RS-3s?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

i havent made the switch, yet.
i bought wheels that came with crappy all seasons...waiting for them to wear out, then on to the RS3's.

the DII's arent like the original.
and the RS3's are in the same league as the NT05's and Star spec Z1's

I'm in it for pure grip.
as you know, I live in Texas and can run a summer tire year long.

the NT05s was such a bad ass tire, but had lots of drawbacks for a daily driven car.
tire pressure had to be spot on, or i'd slide everywhere.
because they are a track/street tire, they need to be warm/hot for maximum grip, thus why tire pressure was/is so important for that tire.

too much air pressure and the tire would not grip.
too little air pressure and the tire will not grip.

slide slide slippity slide.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Vlad_Type_S

iTrader: (3)

Thanks brah. I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on a set of those Direzzas. I don't like these all season Michelins at all.


As a side note, I'm planning on running with SCCA Milwaukee on July 19th and TSSCC on July 20th. If any of ya'll are in the area you should come. It's fun even if you are on crappy tires.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

I autocross my 2nd Gen cl with manual. First thing you will notice is that big and heavy cars do not do very well. My car weighed 3446 stock and it now weighs roughly 2900 lbs. My car is fwd so I run 37 psi front cold and around 43 psi rear cold. On fwd you want high rear psi to get the rear around on the tight corners.

The advantage to fwd is that the car can be packaged smaller and lighter than rwd or awd cars. Crx is a good example. Too bad my fwd acura is huge. It will never fit into spaces miata's or crx's can fill. I have yet to see a really fast awd car in the groups I run with. They all seem to understeer worse than the fwd do.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

[QUOT E=Vad_Type_S;15051326]Cool!!!!!!!!! I just autocrossed my 3G TL for the first time - SCCA Chicago. They classed me in STC because of my exhaust mods (HFPC, j-pipe, catback). Otherwise my car is stock. There was only one other dude in this class with a heavily modded ZX2 escort and he was 9 seconds faster than I was.

I'm running Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 tires and I ran them at 39 Front/36 Rear psi. Although I'm not sure what it's supposed to feel/look like to know whether to adjust it up/down so I stuck with this for each run.

You guys obviously know a lot about tires... I don't know anything about them. What's the best way to select a tire? And how do I know how to find the right PSI?



I just did a quick search and found the Direzza ZIIs. Everyone seems to love these tires and they aren't that expensive. Why did you go to the RS-3s?[/QUOTE]

I autocross in the Chicago area also if you ever want to go to same event.

The best way to know what tires to get is to see what the best/most experienced autocrossers use and copy them.

You need to figure out your alignment specs. I am running -2.3 camber I'm front with 1/8 toe out. That is max camber my ingall's arms allow at my drop height. For the rear I am running -1.2 camber and 0 toe. I decided on those settings based on researching how to setup a fwd car for autocross.

For tire pressure I researched also, then adjusted from there based on what the car felt like it needed.

I started out at 37 psi in the front and low 30's in the rear. The rear was not coming around like I wanted so I upped the pressures gradually until I got it where I liked it at 40-43 psi. The fastest fwd car in my group is a Crx who runs 37 front and 45 rear. You want that rotation. On a fwd car you just use the throttle to straighten the car.

The direzza Zll are pretty popular for street tires.

You can also buy a tire Pyrometer to test tires temp and adjust camber/pressure based on that to get even Temps across the tire.

6spd-GERCO

Figured I would add my recent AutoX experience with my TL. All of my track experience has been with my Integra... but due to a tire shop messing up my order I didn't have the Hankook RS-3's that I had hoped for on my Integra. So I ended up taking my TL to the Road America Cart track. The TL did pretty well once I got used to the cars weight and power. Brakes work very well (brembos), but the stock suspension just rocks all over the place. Suspension upgrades maybe in the future for me. I run continental extreme contact DW"s 235/45-17 and was impressed with how well the stood up.

Here are some pictures from the event. You can see how much the TL's body is moving around.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99430171@N06/14740614606/

Overall had a great time and it was fun to really push the TL to it's limits.

On a side note I finally got my RS-3's for my Integra and I highly recommend them! I see alot of guys running RS-3 out on the track. I've also heard good things about BFG G Force Rivals for HPDE events.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

If you can drive well and want to carry more speed....get you some Kumho V-710 type slicks for autocrossing. I all but eliminated the front end push through corners and could still carry a decent amt of speed into and out of them.