Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

Everyone on the forum is always asking others to post Dyno sheets’ saying a “butt” Dyno isn’t acceptable. I completely agree with this. So I have been to the Dyno a few times now. All Dyno’s are from the same AWD Mustang Dyno in Denver, CO. Both cars had stock 2009-2011 SH-AWD 18’s (one with stock Michelin all season tires, the other with Bridgestone LM-60 Blizzak’s). The stock 19’s have Michelin pilot super sports on them (in stock recommended size, 245/40/19). The hood was closed on all runs with the fan on.

Two dead stock 2010 6 Speed Manual SH-AWD (one with 107K Miles and the other with 35K Miles) put out 227WHP and 201 Torque.



We swapped out the stock intake for a Takeda short ram on the Dyno (so weather and dyno calibrations would not be a factor). Takeda considers this to be a cold air intake (CAI) because it takes air from the remaining stock system which Acura considers to be a CAI. Here are the results (about 5WHP and 6 torque).




Heavily modding/bolting on the 4th generation TL doesn’t add too much power. There isn’t much power to be made with the current options of aftermarket parts. The car is already near max output from the factory with a cold air intake and dual exhaust after the 3rd cat. Here is a stock car vs my car how it currently sits, below is the list of mods:
CT Engineering CAI Icebox
Maxbore Throttle Body (TB) with machined shaft & screws
PnP Intake Manifold (IM)
P2R PnP Runners
P2R IM & TB gaskets
RV-6 HFPC’s (ceramic coated)
XLR8 J Pipe V2 (3rd cat delete) & Catback (both ceramic coated up to the muffler tips)
Skunk 2 Radiator cap
Coolant line delete off of TB

Car made 242WHP and 219 Torque, so 15WHP and 18 Torque gain (this is through most of the power band).




Then I decided to get stock 19’s, I was surprised at how much they affected the car, power went down to 220WHP and 199 Torque, very close to a stock car. The Dyno was set at 4000 RPM’s (just as the above runs were). I noticed that the ECU needs to be updated after installing the 19’s but it looks like this is just for TPMS reasons.

Stock car vs modded with 19’s


Here is a comparison of three pulls (stock vs takeda vs modded with 19’s)


Dyno Picture (my modded car with OEM 19's):


After the Dyno we ran the cars a few times (Takeda intake with 18’s vs my modded car with 19’s) mostly 3rd gear pulls from a roll. The cars were very similar, mine started to pull away up top but not by much. The winner was more so determined by who got the jump at the beginning.

Here are some comparisons (aftermarket parts vs stock parts):
XLR8 J-pipe
-Stock J-pipe has crushed/bent pipes around the bend to allow more clearance
-XLR8 V2 deletes the 3rd cat, allowing for betting flow/less restriction

XLR8 catback exhaust
-Stock pipes are crushed/bent following the 3rd cat to allow for more clearance
-XLR8 has one big pipe coming from the 3rd cat (instead of two smaller pipes on the stock)
-Mufflers sound different/muffle less noise/better flowing

RV-6 HFPC’s (high flow pre cats)
-Stock are around 600 cells
-RV-6 are 200 cells (less cells means more air flow/less restriction)
-Ceramic coating these will keep them cooler (help reduce heat soak)

Maxbore TB w/ Machined shaft & screws
-bored throttle body allows for more air flow coming into the intake manifold
-machined shaft & screws reduces turbulence (allowing for smoother airflow)

PnP Intake manifold & runners
-removing the casting marks will help even air flow to cylinders and reduce turbulence
-porting allows for more air to be held/distributed to the intake manifold/runners

Skunk 2 Radiator car
-Higher pressure cap, so it keeps the radiator at lower temps

Coolant line delete off of Throttle Body
-Removes potentially hot coolant from the throttle body (as the coolant could increase IAT’s)

CT Icebox
-Reduces the restrictions set by the stock air box (resonator especially)
-Pulls air from the wheel well instead of the front of the radiator/condenser

acurarsx04

That's some good information there.

DrewQ35

Wow...all those bolt ons that little gain! My 2010 FWD TL only made 233whp stock. I havent been back on the Dyno since I installed the Excelerate v2 J-Pipe....I'm scared to even spend the money to see a measly 5whp increase. lol.

Brock79

This is exactly what I have been saying all along and everyone was saying I was full of BS. I'm glad someone got a dyno sheet with before and after results. It's also a known fact that you can do 3 different pulls on a Mustang dyno and get three different results as well. This being done with in an hours time.

ucf_bronco

iTrader: (1)

All I can say is...it's about damn time!!!

So many people on here have stated the Takeda intake makes no power and is actually worse than the OEM setup, yet not a single person before you has provided dynos to back up their claims.

It's nice to see some factual proof as opposed to a bunch of opinions

DefMunkie

I'm interested to see if a little a tuning can make big difference with all of the mods you mentioned. At this point it's a lot of money for little gain.

Looks like I'll be saving my money and hoping for SC kit with a tune.

DefMunkie

Mind if I ask...How much did you spend on all your power mods?

Matts_Acura

I imagine you would pick up a decent HP gain if we were able to tune the car after the mods. I did every performance mod possible to my maxima back in the day and I gained about 15 HP. I took it in for tune and with a SAFCII I picked up about 30 more HP, all in all I gained about 45HP with the majority coming after the tune. It makes sense that these mods are not doing much without a proper tune being available.


This info is gold though... I don't know how many arguments I have seen over speculation of performance mods and how much they actually help. This should be a sticky...

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

Thanks!

I would expect the FWD TL to make more power than the AWD model (less drive-train loss).

Yes, every pull will be slightly different (usually varies by 2-3whp). This can be caused by heat. We did another pull with the Takeda intake and it still made more power than stock, but about 2WHP less than the posted numbers.

Yeah, my friend bought the intake for his car so I thought we might as well dyno it to see if it's just a noise maker or not.

I would hope to get at least 10WHP with a tune, maybe some more.

These are all listed prices on either XLR8 or Heeltoeauto, expect for the throttle body which has to be sent directly to Maxbore. The intake manifold PnP was done locally (plus some of my own effort). I recently contacted P2R and they no longer offers PnP services. They do not include any shipping, taxes (if applicable) or labor to install.

CT Engineering CAI Icebox $500
Maxbore Throttle Body (TB) with machined shaft & screws $135
PnP Intake Manifold (IM) $80 (local, to widen the lower outlets)
P2R PnP Runners $275 (AZ member, retail $399, discontinued)
P2R IM & TB gaskets $35 & $25 respectively
RV-6 HFPC’s $600
XLR8 J Pipe V2 (3rd cat delete) & Catback $500 & $1100 respectively
Ceramic coating the whole exhaust (locally) $500
Skunk 2 Radiator cap $30
Coolant line delete off of TB Free

The ceramic coating helps reduce the heat soak affect and it also helps protect the exhaust from corroding.

30WHP with a tune would be amazing! I gained 20WHP tuning my 3G TL, I would expect this to be around the same (maybe a little less, as I had a couple more parts on the 3G TL).

I agree, there are way too many arguments (especially here in the 4G TL section) over performance mods but no one ever posts Dyno's to back their claims.

Sticky FTW!

KarKraze

Thank you for the great info.Sticky this for sure.

Curious as to why there was a 22 hp loss when switched to 19's even though the rolling diameter was maintained,what in your opinion contributed to the loss? i wonder how much heavier the 19's were compared to the 18".

DefMunkie

I think the Mustang Dyno had something to do with that... I've never seen one give consistent numbers.

scotty2hotty

iTrader: (1)

Takeda SRI, 5hp!

dirtyo2000

Awesome post and great information. Doesn't get any better than that. Actually most said their car felt sluggish down low with the Takeda intake and dyno showed they loose TQ down low. Great that he has valuable information. There are no AWD dyno around here so I couldn't do mine. I know the icebox isn't giving out 15 hp.

Tuning would probably help a few but then a stock tuned car would also pick up hp. I gave up modding the TL and just enjoy driving it from time to time. From a dead you will notice TQ loss faster than a couple HP gained. Reason numbers are hard to constantly duplicate is the TC on automatics. They are never identical and have a lock up range. It's not a guaranteed rpm. Reason sticks are more consistent because the clutch locks when let out.

Autos can slip more on one pull, fluid gets hot and takes a little more pressure turning the fins, torque vectoring moving distribution around. Just so many variables with an auto. Great to see results for the 4G though. Gives me an idea why I get by other cars sometimes lol

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

hood up and fan blowing; yep you'll see gains. real world the hood is down and you only get air flow while you're moving.

a real test would be measuring IAT's, because if the car is retarding the timing due to HOT IAT's during idle, you wont see that 5hp gain

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

I need to weigh both sets of wheels & tires to find out exactly how much each set weighs. Once I do I'll post that info here.

I don't think that was the case here. I dyno'd my car back in October, we just dyno'd my friends car on Saturday and they both put down 227WHP and 201 Torque (decimal points were slightly off).

Yeah more than I thought it would make!

Thanks! Yeah from what I read on here most said what the dyno showed (loss down low, a little power up top). I don't have the intake and only drove my friends car with it very shortly (at which point I was already modded) so I couldn't tell. I was actually looking at the graph Josh (XLR8) posted. Post #26 here:
https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-295/ct-engineering-ice-box-review-895167/

If you look at the dyno sheet "Run ID" it says "baseline,exh,airb" which to me would mean "baseline" vs "exhaust & air box", as only two graphs are loaded/shown. CT says their axleback makes 6-8WHP, so 15 with both the icebox and the exhaust is more realistic. Takeda makes 5whp (as shown above) I think CT's would make a little more (maybe 7WHP and 8WHP on the high end of the exhaust would get you to 15WHP).

As for the auto vs manual on the dyno. Thanks for that info, I've only dyno'd manual transmission cars so I've never ran into that issue before.

Hood was closed, read again and look at the picture. The car would be moving in third gear.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

sorry didnt read or look at the pics
but, lets also test IAT's!!! please!

you've had a 3G, you know how sensitive it is to heat.
Please test IAT's

dirtyo2000

Wish I could see the AFR the car is running at. I notice by the time the intake does anything to make a difference the V tech is kicking in. During normal driving area it's actually hurting performance. Wish there was a dyno around here because I would like to see the icebox performance

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^afr's and IAT's will help with decoding the dyno results

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

if the ECU is scaling back timing because of heat, you're not getting full power.

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

I should be able to do that next time. Dyno has an OBD2 port connector, so I don't see why I wouldn't be able to read IAT and AFR from the ECU. He also has sensors for measuring the AFR at the tailpipes.

I could do it with flashpro, I know that for sure.

Yep, it's not really helpful unless you are racing someone up in Vtec. I'd like to see what the CT box makes too (from a 3rd party). I don't plan on taking my exhaust mods off anytime soon, so unfortunately it won't be me posting it.

Have a formula by chance? Just for future reference and easy to find later.

Yep, this could be reduced with flashpro.

fsttyms1

high IATs really seem to hurt the performance of these motors. The stock ECU really retards timing. I have seen it pull over 45deg of timing with higher IATs. The one thing about dyno tuning that can really affect the numbers is the lack of moving air like the car would see in real world driving.

TeamAcura

Great stuff man. Should of stuck a couple of fans up front to mimic airflow. Regardless, the 4G needs a proper tune and why we need a FlashPro!

Brock79

With a tune, all of the mods would definitely serve the purpose for power gains. Until then sadly it's a very minimal gain. I have been saying this all along and many members said I was wrong and didn't know what I was talking about. Thanks again for posting Dyno results and showing the proof, to many people read those boxes that say UP TO 15 HP and automatically think they're gonna get that. They just don't understand the "UP TO" part.

wreak

I guess this proves the Takeda intake does provide gains, although as with most intakes at the cost of some lower end power. Kind of confirms the reason I've avoided installing one since most of my driving is within city limits below 4k rpm.

Thanks for sharing OP this info has been a long time coming.

nismod05

Great post - I'm a bit older than most of you guys but I still enjoy a bit of power however given the $$$ involved for a few hp, I'd rather spend it on looks. Love the info on this site.

prepreludesh

I'm pleasantly surprised a modern car still gained so much HP and TQ with these mods. For those of you thinking it's not enough, then you must not understand that modern day cars have manufacturers eeking out every bit of performance from the engines that they can, far more so than back in the 80's-00's. They rarely leave anything left, and that's especially true with Honda's.

I've always applied the $100 per 1 HP rule when modifying cars so if any of you think there is some magical shortcut to gaining more power with less money, then I got some news for you.

CruzanTLSH-AWD

Wow So I guess its not worth getting the J-PIPE AND HFC THEN..

lift3d_

What lead you to this conclusion?

CruzanTLSH-AWD

This disappointeing Graph im reading... ��

lift3d_

^ what exactly were you expecting, without a tune?

CruzanTLSH-AWD

I'm use to the Integra World... I know this a whole diffrent beast but at least my GS-R gave me 148whp to 161whp with Intake And full exhusted.. Then when tuned got 167whp.. But I guess your right without a tuned but I just have a feeling with tuning much HP will not be gain with this car.. Not a issue to be honest.. I just wondering if it worth the J-pipe & HFC...

toddrhodes

iTrader: (1)

The only true test that I can think of here would be to see 1/4 mile traps before and after mods. Isn't the SH-AWD kind of a PITA to dyno accurately? I will say, I too saw these graphs and thought better of fitting a j-pipe and catback. However, if what was said about IAT's and timing is correct, maybe that $500 intake is worth it over a SRI?

csmeance

The RL had a ton of issues getting dyno'ed accurately and TOV decided to disconnect the rear driveshaft and only measure power with the front wheels connected for a much more accurate picture.

MyKL

I think you little bit wrong because car made 242HP (NOT Whp (wheel horsepower). The WHP is 199. Around 18% of lost it's normal.

beat

LOL hes not wrong, no dyno show HP at the crank, well most of it. Its clearly at the wheel. 199whp would be just wrong.

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

You are close. So technically the car only made 199WHP on the dyno that day. WCF= Weather correction factor

So when WCF is accounted for the car made 242WHP (this is done to normalize the data for everyone, everywhere; so you can accurately compare Dyno numbers). Anytime someone is talking WHP the WCF was taken into account.

The car makes 305HP at the crank stock, so 199WHP would be over a 33% drivetrain loss.

If you check above both cars made 227WHP stock, or a 25% drivetrain loss, which is accurate considering AWD & elevation.

You are close too. No Dyno's show crank horsepower unless its an engine dyno, which hooks directly up to an engine which is not in a car.

TheKidWithTheBlackTL

i dont know if anyone has mentioned it in the comments but you guys have to consider the fact that this dyno was in Colorado. Due to altitude circumstances cars will always make less power. I'm guessing in any other state this car will put down 25-35 more hp. With a tune and even more. I'm not ranting just putting in my 2 cents. By the way, awesome informal post man.

JDMCRX

This is the MD-500 AWD so the front and rear rollers are linked via a belt so the SH-Awd will not act up and you will get consitant numbers.

Im in for seeing actual AFR and IAT. These motors loose alot of power with the IAT is high.

csmeance

SH-AWD until the RLX and new TLX and MDX had almost 30-35% loss in power depending on the AWD dyno used. Shawn at church automotive removed the RDX rear driveshaft and dyno'ed the front wheels and was able to get 240+ WHP on the front only with SH-AWD errors.

99cobra09

Man this is pretty weak, considering you are spending a good amount on parts. Even it isn't tuned thats pretty shi**y IMHO. Im use to seeing higher gains in the mustang world.