Honda, McLaren: Development and Technology news
#1
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
McLaren-Honda? Speculation
The respected German publication Auto Motor und Sport reports that Honda could be considering a technical collaboration with McLaren to start when F1 makes the move to small capacity turbocharged engines in 2014.
The two companies enjoyed a highly successful association between 1988 and 1992, which resulted in four drivers' championships - three for Ayrton Senna and one for Alain Prost - and four consecutive constructors' titles for McLaren.
Honda then withdrew as engine suppliers at the end of 1992 before returning with the nascent British American Racing outfit in 2000, increasing its stake-holding until it bought out the Brackley-based outfit in its entirety and campaigned as a works outfit between 2006 and the end of 2008, when it withdrew from F1 once more amid the global economic downturn.
McLaren is currently believed to have an agreement for the supply of Mercedes-Benz engines through to the end of 2015 but with the German company having its own works operation since buying out Brawn GP at the end of 2009, it is easy to see McLaren wanting to pursue a more exclusive future arrangement.
Traditionally, Honda was attracted to F1 for the technical challenge and the opportunity it offered to further the competence of its engineers. Currently though, F1's prescribed 2-4-litre V8s do not fit well with manufacturing marketing trends based around efficiency.
That will change in 2014, however, with another volume manufacturer, Renault, looking handily replaced. The company already supplies reigning double constructors champions Red Bull Racing, Lotus-Renault, the renamed for 2012 Caterham team and, new for next year, Williams, revisiting a highly successful partnership from the nineties.
Renault F1's Rob White says: "There are no longer any normally aspirated diesel engines in production, they're all turbocharged and there are less and less normally aspirated gasoline engines. The future direction is downsized turbo engines.
"We're also heavily committed to electrical traction in our road car range and so we are equally pleased to see that in the new F1 rules.
An allotted quantity of fuel for each race and a fuel flow rate limit, means that the only way to do it is to be efficient.
"There are a lot of things still to play out in how the sporting rules could be written, but if we take the technical regulations as they stand, limited fuel for the race is a very similar process to the task that is in front of every single car manufacturer -- to be able to do a trip to the shops with the smallest amount of fuel.
"The scope of the 2014 project is really quite vast. It's a pretty radical set of rules that's going to change quite a lot in the sport."
Turbocharging and fuel limitations have been seen in F1 but where the new F1 engine regulations are truly innovative is in the combination of turbocharging and energy regeneration.
"We really do think it's quite novel," White explains, "because not only is the engine allowed to be turbocharged but we can recover exhaust heat by coupling a generator to the turbine in the exhaust. That's know-how that we must acquire and it will be available to the group when we acquire it."
The kinetic energy recovery systems (KERS) currently used in F1 are similar to those first seen in 2009 and relatively limited in impact, offering around 0.3s per lap to the overall performance equation.
For 2014, however, they will be altogether more powerful, with twice as much power (120KJ) and significantly increased energy from the batteries meaning that the overall impact of KERS will be up to 10 times as great as it is now.
Suddenly, the tasks facing F1 engine manufacturers will have much more relevance to the road car side of their business. It will be about a number of energy optimising tasks and you can see that being right up Honda's street.
Whether the economic and internal political climates are right for Honda is another matter. That will come down to decisions taken at board level but, if the company is looking seriously at F1 once more, what better partner than McLaren again?
The two companies enjoyed a highly successful association between 1988 and 1992, which resulted in four drivers' championships - three for Ayrton Senna and one for Alain Prost - and four consecutive constructors' titles for McLaren.
Honda then withdrew as engine suppliers at the end of 1992 before returning with the nascent British American Racing outfit in 2000, increasing its stake-holding until it bought out the Brackley-based outfit in its entirety and campaigned as a works outfit between 2006 and the end of 2008, when it withdrew from F1 once more amid the global economic downturn.
McLaren is currently believed to have an agreement for the supply of Mercedes-Benz engines through to the end of 2015 but with the German company having its own works operation since buying out Brawn GP at the end of 2009, it is easy to see McLaren wanting to pursue a more exclusive future arrangement.
Traditionally, Honda was attracted to F1 for the technical challenge and the opportunity it offered to further the competence of its engineers. Currently though, F1's prescribed 2-4-litre V8s do not fit well with manufacturing marketing trends based around efficiency.
That will change in 2014, however, with another volume manufacturer, Renault, looking handily replaced. The company already supplies reigning double constructors champions Red Bull Racing, Lotus-Renault, the renamed for 2012 Caterham team and, new for next year, Williams, revisiting a highly successful partnership from the nineties.
Renault F1's Rob White says: "There are no longer any normally aspirated diesel engines in production, they're all turbocharged and there are less and less normally aspirated gasoline engines. The future direction is downsized turbo engines.
"We're also heavily committed to electrical traction in our road car range and so we are equally pleased to see that in the new F1 rules.
An allotted quantity of fuel for each race and a fuel flow rate limit, means that the only way to do it is to be efficient.
"There are a lot of things still to play out in how the sporting rules could be written, but if we take the technical regulations as they stand, limited fuel for the race is a very similar process to the task that is in front of every single car manufacturer -- to be able to do a trip to the shops with the smallest amount of fuel.
"The scope of the 2014 project is really quite vast. It's a pretty radical set of rules that's going to change quite a lot in the sport."
Turbocharging and fuel limitations have been seen in F1 but where the new F1 engine regulations are truly innovative is in the combination of turbocharging and energy regeneration.
"We really do think it's quite novel," White explains, "because not only is the engine allowed to be turbocharged but we can recover exhaust heat by coupling a generator to the turbine in the exhaust. That's know-how that we must acquire and it will be available to the group when we acquire it."
The kinetic energy recovery systems (KERS) currently used in F1 are similar to those first seen in 2009 and relatively limited in impact, offering around 0.3s per lap to the overall performance equation.
For 2014, however, they will be altogether more powerful, with twice as much power (120KJ) and significantly increased energy from the batteries meaning that the overall impact of KERS will be up to 10 times as great as it is now.
Suddenly, the tasks facing F1 engine manufacturers will have much more relevance to the road car side of their business. It will be about a number of energy optimising tasks and you can see that being right up Honda's street.
Whether the economic and internal political climates are right for Honda is another matter. That will come down to decisions taken at board level but, if the company is looking seriously at F1 once more, what better partner than McLaren again?
#2
2G TLX-S
I'm much looking forward to Honda's return to F1 as an engine supplier at which Honda was once good at.
#4
2G TLX-S
^^^^^ That's exactly my point.
Honda should only re-enter F1 as an engine supplier, and nothing more.
Honda should only re-enter F1 as an engine supplier, and nothing more.
#5
AZ Community Team
Honda: Return to F1 with McLaren in 2015
http://news.yahoo.com/motor-racing-h...125716582.html
Hopefully the old chemistry will still be there in one of the best partnerships in motorsport
Hopefully the old chemistry will still be there in one of the best partnerships in motorsport
Last edited by Legend2TL; 05-15-2013 at 11:50 AM.
#6
2G TLX-S
Just hope that Honda will not change it's mind again.
#7
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (1)
Woups too late..came here to post it
Over the last few months there has been plenty of buzz about Honda’s possible return to Formula 1 as an engine supplier for the McLaren team. According to various new reports, sources close from Honda in Japan say the comeback will happen for the 2015 season with the official announcement to come as early as this week. McLaren will remain with Mercedes as an engine supplier for 2014, but nothing has been confirmed for beyond then. New F1 engine regulations will go into effect next year, and Honda sees this at the perfect time to re-enter the sport after shutting down its own F1 team back in 2008.
Will this reunion bring back the dominance of the Senna and Prost years? Time will tell…
Over the last few months there has been plenty of buzz about Honda’s possible return to Formula 1 as an engine supplier for the McLaren team. According to various new reports, sources close from Honda in Japan say the comeback will happen for the 2015 season with the official announcement to come as early as this week. McLaren will remain with Mercedes as an engine supplier for 2014, but nothing has been confirmed for beyond then. New F1 engine regulations will go into effect next year, and Honda sees this at the perfect time to re-enter the sport after shutting down its own F1 team back in 2008.
Will this reunion bring back the dominance of the Senna and Prost years? Time will tell…
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#8
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I've been hearing this since December.. my fingers have been getting sore from being crossed this entire time
#10
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Join Date: May 2003
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Just one more hour until the announcement..
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/honda-news-channel-e
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/honda-news-channel-e
#11
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Loved the McLaren/Honda partnership back in the 80's, ditto Williams/Honda too
#13
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107443
And when did you realize that?
Honda's decision to return to Formula 1 was motivated by the potential for technology transfer to road cars offered by the switch to 1.6-litre turbocharged engines.
The new engine formula will be introduced next year, with Honda taking over from Mercedes as McLaren's engine supplier from 2015.
Honda president Takanobu Ito confirmed that the 'green' technologies being adopted by F1 were key to its comeback.
"Formula 1 is about to introduce new regulations that require a downsized engine with a turbocharger and energy recovery systems, which fits better with environmental technologies for mass-production vehicles," said Ito at a press conference announcing Honda's return.
"As a result, more than ever we can expect more feedback from racing machines to mass-production vehicles and some feedback from mass-production vehicles back to racing machines.
"As we started to see a better match between the new direction of F1 and the direction of Honda's product development, our young engineers who will shape the future of Honda began expressing their passion to take on the new challenge of Formula 1 racing."
Ito added that the F1 return is important for Honda's image worldwide.
He believes that motor-racing has played a key role in Honda's road car sales.
"Ever since its establishment, Honda has been a company which grows by participating and winning in racing," said Ito.
"We must re-acknowledge the fact that so many fans and customers around the world supported us precisely because they were inspired by a Honda that challenges and wins in racing."
Ito added that he hopes Honda will start winning "as soon as possible" and admitted that the failure of Honda's previous F1 foray first as an engine supplier and then as a full works team from 2000-2008.
"Personally, it was very disappointing that we had to withdraw from Formula 1 the last time without accomplishing satisfactory results," he said.
"I regret that we could not meet the expectations of our fans."
The new engine formula will be introduced next year, with Honda taking over from Mercedes as McLaren's engine supplier from 2015.
Honda president Takanobu Ito confirmed that the 'green' technologies being adopted by F1 were key to its comeback.
"Formula 1 is about to introduce new regulations that require a downsized engine with a turbocharger and energy recovery systems, which fits better with environmental technologies for mass-production vehicles," said Ito at a press conference announcing Honda's return.
"As a result, more than ever we can expect more feedback from racing machines to mass-production vehicles and some feedback from mass-production vehicles back to racing machines.
"As we started to see a better match between the new direction of F1 and the direction of Honda's product development, our young engineers who will shape the future of Honda began expressing their passion to take on the new challenge of Formula 1 racing."
Ito added that the F1 return is important for Honda's image worldwide.
He believes that motor-racing has played a key role in Honda's road car sales.
"Ever since its establishment, Honda has been a company which grows by participating and winning in racing," said Ito.
"We must re-acknowledge the fact that so many fans and customers around the world supported us precisely because they were inspired by a Honda that challenges and wins in racing."
Ito added that he hopes Honda will start winning "as soon as possible" and admitted that the failure of Honda's previous F1 foray first as an engine supplier and then as a full works team from 2000-2008.
"Personally, it was very disappointing that we had to withdraw from Formula 1 the last time without accomplishing satisfactory results," he said.
"I regret that we could not meet the expectations of our fans."
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speedemon90 (05-22-2013)
#14
99 TL, 06 E350
Acura Integra, Legend and Vigor were all becasue of Honda's part in F1. Hopefully we see a resurgence of this kind of product and not the crap we see today.
#15
El Press Release
Honda to Participate in the FIA Formula One World Championship
05/16/2013 - TOKYO, Japan
Honda Motor Co., Ltd. today announced its decision to participate in the FIA Formula One (F1) World Championship from the 2015 season under a joint project with McLaren, the UK-based F1 corporation.
Honda will be in charge of the development, manufacture and supply of the power unit, including the engine and energy recovery system, while McLaren will be in charge of the development and manufacture of the chassis, as well as the management of the new team, McLaren Honda.
From 2014, new F1 regulations require the introduction of a 1.6 litre direct injection turbocharged V6 engine with energy recovery systems. The opportunity to further develop these powertrain technologies through the challenge of racing is central to Honda's decision to participate in F1. Throughout its history, Honda has passionately pursued improvements in the efficiency of the internal combustion engine and in more recent years, the development of pioneering energy management technologies such as hybrid systems. Participation in Formula 1 under these new regulations will encourage even further technological progress in both these areas. Furthermore, a new generation of Honda engineers can learn the challenges and the thrills of operating at the pinnacle of motorsport.
Commenting on this exciting development, Takanobu Ito, president and CEO of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. said:
05/16/2013 - TOKYO, Japan
Honda Motor Co., Ltd. today announced its decision to participate in the FIA Formula One (F1) World Championship from the 2015 season under a joint project with McLaren, the UK-based F1 corporation.
Honda will be in charge of the development, manufacture and supply of the power unit, including the engine and energy recovery system, while McLaren will be in charge of the development and manufacture of the chassis, as well as the management of the new team, McLaren Honda.
From 2014, new F1 regulations require the introduction of a 1.6 litre direct injection turbocharged V6 engine with energy recovery systems. The opportunity to further develop these powertrain technologies through the challenge of racing is central to Honda's decision to participate in F1. Throughout its history, Honda has passionately pursued improvements in the efficiency of the internal combustion engine and in more recent years, the development of pioneering energy management technologies such as hybrid systems. Participation in Formula 1 under these new regulations will encourage even further technological progress in both these areas. Furthermore, a new generation of Honda engineers can learn the challenges and the thrills of operating at the pinnacle of motorsport.
Commenting on this exciting development, Takanobu Ito, president and CEO of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. said:
"Ever since its establishment, Honda has been a company which grows by taking on challenges in racing. Honda has a long history of advancing our technologies and nurturing our people by participating in the world's most prestigious automobile racing series. The new F1 regulations with their significant environmental focus will inspire even greater development of our own advanced technologies and this is central to our participation in F1. We have the greatest respect for the FIA's decision to introduce these new regulations that are both highly challenging but also attractive to manufacturers that pursue environmental technologies and to Formula One Group, which has developed F1 into a high value, top car racing category supported by enthusiastic fans. We would like to express our sincere gratitude to Mr. Jean Todt, the President of FIA and to Mr. Bernie Ecclestone, the CEO of Formula One Group who showed great understanding and cooperation to help realize our participation in F1 racing. The corporate slogan of Honda is "The Power of Dreams". This slogan represents our strong desire to pursue and realize our dreams together with our customers and fans. Together with McLaren, one of the most distinguished F1 constructors, Honda will mark a new beginning in our challenges in F1."
Also, Martin Whitmarsh, CEO of McLaren Group Limited said:"The names of McLaren and Honda are synonymous with success in Formula One, and, for everyone who works for both companies, the weight of our past achievements together lies heavily on our shoulders. But it's a mark of the ambition and resolve we both share that we want once again to take McLaren Honda to the very pinnacle of Formula One success. Together we have a great legacy – and we're utterly committed to maintaining it."
Jean Todt, president of FIA said:"I am very happy to hear about Honda's important decision to return to Formula One with McLaren from 2015.The introduction of the new power train next year, in the form of a 1.6 litre, 6 cylinder engine with direct injection and energy recovery, is a very exciting challenge and demonstrates a vision for the future of the sport. I am sure that Honda will become a strong contender in the years to come. "
Bernie Ecclestone, CEO of Formula One Group said:"It is a great pleasure to see Honda back in Formula One. Their engine technology and passion for motor sports make them a natural Formula One contender."
History of Honda Participation in F1 Racing:- 1964-1968: Participated as an "all Honda" team including both the engine and chassis
- 1983-1992: Participated as an engine supplier (Won both the driver's and constructors' championship titles for four consecutive years from 1988 through 1991)
- 2000-2005: Participated as an engine supplier and joint developer of the chassis
- 2006-2008: Participated as an "all Honda" team including both the engine and chassis
#16
Sharing my little story on the official news on Honda Returns to Formula 1 with McLaren.
http://tovahondafan.blogspot.com/201...-one.html#more
http://tovahondafan.blogspot.com/201...-one.html#more
#17
2G TLX-S
Good move.
Do what Honda is best at : as an engine supplier, but not as an full-blown F1 team.
Do what Honda is best at : as an engine supplier, but not as an full-blown F1 team.
#20
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
No comment from MB? Pressure's on now for Mercedes to deliver.
Wonder if this will start a round of engine changes? With the change in engine formula, Renault's price increase.
Wonder if this will start a round of engine changes? With the change in engine formula, Renault's price increase.
#21
2G TLX-S
How about Toyota ?
I'm pretty sure that Toyota doesn't want to be left behind, being the largest auto maker in Japan, and always want to challenge Honda in open wheel motorsport, such as F1 and Indy/CART.
I'm pretty sure that Toyota doesn't want to be left behind, being the largest auto maker in Japan, and always want to challenge Honda in open wheel motorsport, such as F1 and Indy/CART.
#22
Pro
Dammit, and my Vodafone McLaren-Mercedes shirt just came in this week! Ah well, bring on the new McLaren-Honda gear.
This hits all the right spots for me. I'm excited for this partnership. I'm also a Jenson Button fan - I hope he gets signed by McLaren again when his contact is up - allowing him to work with Honda again.
This hits all the right spots for me. I'm excited for this partnership. I'm also a Jenson Button fan - I hope he gets signed by McLaren again when his contact is up - allowing him to work with Honda again.
Last edited by Mugen.Justice; 05-16-2013 at 09:33 PM.
#23
AZ Community Team
Williams never seemed to gel as well as McLaren, despite winning 2 WCC and 1 WDC in four years.
#24
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
McLaren-Honda, Lotus-Honda, Williams-Honda?
Looks like an 80s flashback.
#25
99 TL, 06 E350
McLaren does not partner up with manufactures with weak engines. There must have been a secret test of Honda engines that led McLaren to come to this decision.
#26
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
#27
AZ Community Team
In fact some of the early motors used for F1 racing came out of the BMW corporate cars since they had been through many heat cycles so the cast iron was more annealed. So sometime technology goes from production motors to racing motors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M12
#28
Senior Moderator
#29
Senior Moderator
There's also word that McLaren has plans to make a Porsche 911 fighter...so, with Honda on board.........
#30
McLaren: Honda not involved with P13
Insider has revealed that McLaren will continue to develop the P13 on its own, despite a recent deal with Honda for F1 engines
McLaren’s deal with Honda to supply its Formula 1 team with engines from 2015 onwards is not expected to have any impact on its road car division, an insider has told Autocar.
Drawing a parallel between McLaren’s current F1 deal with Mercedes, and the fact that arrangement bears no relation to the road car division, the source said: “At the moment there is no anticipated impact on the road car division as a result of the Honda deal.”
In particular, the source denied that Honda would have any involvement with the McLaren P13, the firm’s next all-new road car and a mooted Porsche 911 Turbo rival.
Development of that car, which is thought to use a 450bhp version of McLaren's 3.8-litre V8, is said to be at an “advanced” stage.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...t-involved-p13
Insider has revealed that McLaren will continue to develop the P13 on its own, despite a recent deal with Honda for F1 engines
McLaren’s deal with Honda to supply its Formula 1 team with engines from 2015 onwards is not expected to have any impact on its road car division, an insider has told Autocar.
Drawing a parallel between McLaren’s current F1 deal with Mercedes, and the fact that arrangement bears no relation to the road car division, the source said: “At the moment there is no anticipated impact on the road car division as a result of the Honda deal.”
In particular, the source denied that Honda would have any involvement with the McLaren P13, the firm’s next all-new road car and a mooted Porsche 911 Turbo rival.
Development of that car, which is thought to use a 450bhp version of McLaren's 3.8-litre V8, is said to be at an “advanced” stage.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...t-involved-p13
#31
2G TLX-S
^^^^^
If only that Honda HAD a production V8 motor, it could then be a McLaren-Honda road car.
If only that Honda HAD a production V8 motor, it could then be a McLaren-Honda road car.
#32
Senior Moderator
Honda, McLaren: Development and Technology news
#33
Senior Moderator
Some tidbits:
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...e-engine-video
Between 1988 and 1992, McLaren Formula One cars powered by Honda engines were dominant on the track. In fact, during those years McLaren racked up 44 wins and eight titles thanks to the likes of Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna. Now, McLaren and Honda are looking to rekindle those glory days by once again partnering, with McLaren remaining as constructor and Honda as engine supplier. Their first season together will take place next year.
McLaren first rolled out its Honda-powered racer at a special event at the Silverstone track earlier in the month, shown in the video above, and this week proper testing got underway in Abu Dhabi following the conclusion of the 2014 season, with reserve driver Stoffel Vandoorne.
Things have got off to a bumpy start, however. Electrical issues have plagued the test car, which meant it spent most of its time in the garage. But it’s still early days, as these initial tests are mainly for system checks. McLaren only commences full engine testing in February.
"Running a modern Formula 1 car is a very complicated procedure–and this week's test is all about how the departments at Sakura, Milton Keynes and Woking learn to integrate with the operational hub at the circuit," McLaren racing director Eric Boullier said in Abu Dhabi. "We encountered a number of issues, including a lengthy check of electrical installations this morning, but it's satisfying to see that we got the engine fired up, the car out of the garage, and some laps on the board."
Honda first confirmed its intention to return to F1 as an engine supplier back in 2013. The Japanese automaker’s new power unit, which was revealed for the first time last month, will be used exclusively by McLaren in the 2015 season.
The power unit consists of a turbocharged 1.6-liter V-6 engine paired with two electric motor-generators, one providing a boost of power to the wheels and the other helping spool up the turbo. Under current regs, combined system output is around 750 horsepower.
McLaren first rolled out its Honda-powered racer at a special event at the Silverstone track earlier in the month, shown in the video above, and this week proper testing got underway in Abu Dhabi following the conclusion of the 2014 season, with reserve driver Stoffel Vandoorne.
Things have got off to a bumpy start, however. Electrical issues have plagued the test car, which meant it spent most of its time in the garage. But it’s still early days, as these initial tests are mainly for system checks. McLaren only commences full engine testing in February.
"Running a modern Formula 1 car is a very complicated procedure–and this week's test is all about how the departments at Sakura, Milton Keynes and Woking learn to integrate with the operational hub at the circuit," McLaren racing director Eric Boullier said in Abu Dhabi. "We encountered a number of issues, including a lengthy check of electrical installations this morning, but it's satisfying to see that we got the engine fired up, the car out of the garage, and some laps on the board."
Honda first confirmed its intention to return to F1 as an engine supplier back in 2013. The Japanese automaker’s new power unit, which was revealed for the first time last month, will be used exclusively by McLaren in the 2015 season.
The power unit consists of a turbocharged 1.6-liter V-6 engine paired with two electric motor-generators, one providing a boost of power to the wheels and the other helping spool up the turbo. Under current regs, combined system output is around 750 horsepower.
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