F1... long season
05-05-2004, 04:35 PM
#121
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Originally posted by DEVO
MS's salary isn't strickly from a single source (i.e. Ferrari), he get a lot from Shell/Marlboro as well.
I would say MS was worth his salary when Ferrari wasn't the best car on the grid. When he first joined for example. 3 years he came close with a car that wasn't the best. Now, I'm convinced that any of the top driver's in a red car could be leading 4 to nil.
MS's salary isn't strickly from a single source (i.e. Ferrari), he get a lot from Shell/Marlboro as well.
I would say MS was worth his salary when Ferrari wasn't the best car on the grid. When he first joined for example. 3 years he came close with a car that wasn't the best. Now, I'm convinced that any of the top driver's in a red car could be leading 4 to nil.
Vandy
05-05-2004, 04:42 PM
#122
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Originally posted by ilitig8
For the record my top ten of all time in no particular order:
Gilles Villeneuve
Michael Schumacher
Aryton Senna
Sir Jackie Stewart
Nigel Mansell
Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alain Prost
Stirling Moss
Alberto Ascari
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Very agruable, I'd think alot of people would agrue with GV being ahead of MS and AS.
I'd have MS at the top follwed by AS and then probly Fangio. Its really hard IMO to compare drivers 30 years ago to today's drivers because of the advancements in technology.
For the record my top ten of all time in no particular order:
Gilles Villeneuve
Michael Schumacher
Aryton Senna
Sir Jackie Stewart
Nigel Mansell
Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alain Prost
Stirling Moss
Alberto Ascari
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very agruable, I'd think alot of people would agrue with GV being ahead of MS and AS.
I'd have MS at the top follwed by AS and then probly Fangio. Its really hard IMO to compare drivers 30 years ago to today's drivers because of the advancements in technology.
MS has to be #1 stat wise, but we'll never know how high up AS could have gone. Or how high Prost could have w\ their competitiveness.
05-05-2004, 04:50 PM
#123
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Originally posted by domn
Very agruable, I'd think alot of people would agrue with GV being ahead of MS and AS.
I'd have MS at the top follwed by AS and then probly Fangio. Its really hard IMO to compare drivers 30 years ago to today's drivers because of the advancements in technology.
Very agruable, I'd think alot of people would agrue with GV being ahead of MS and AS.
I'd have MS at the top follwed by AS and then probly Fangio. Its really hard IMO to compare drivers 30 years ago to today's drivers because of the advancements in technology.
Ascari won every race he started in his two championship wins for Enzo.
Clark was a frekin sheep farmer for gosh sake, drove for Lotus during the Chapman era, won Indy and just about every other race with four wheels but died in an F2 race.
Fangio won 5 WDCs but did it taking cars from his team mates and jumping teams to be in the fastest car
Mansell (the Lion) had huge cajones, won in an electronic wonder of a car, then went came to the US and smaked down the US field, returned to F1 to find his girth was a little large for the cars
Prost would have won even more had he not been teamed with Senna for some time
Schumacher is well Schumacher
Senna is well Senna
Stewart's best was with Tyrell, imagine that... and once won the at the Nurburgring (old long course) by 4 minutes very cool
GV died giving 110% in Belgium trying to take pole, though he didn't post the numbers others did, much of his short carrer was with Ferrari in the "bad years"
Moss never won a WDC but beat Fangio on occasion...
Vandy
05-06-2004, 07:50 AM
#124
mmm i see, i read the news on F1 from time to time, after reading all these, i agree MS is indeed a good driver, or one of the best drivers. i am a fan of Honda, so i wish Honda do win some race, i don't mind who the driver is 
i am thinking, if Honda get MS instead of JV in the first year... what will happened 
mmm by the way, is Ferrari still an independ company? seeing many merge years ago i am wondering, they must make lots of money by selling sports car, while many other compnay rely on SUV to stay alive...
i am thinking, if Honda get MS instead of JV in the first year... what will happened mmm by the way, is Ferrari still an independ company? seeing many merge years ago i am wondering, they must make lots of money by selling sports car, while many other compnay rely on SUV to stay alive...
05-06-2004, 08:18 AM
#125
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Originally posted by ilitig8
You also have to factor in that MS BUILT the current Ferrari team (they hadn't won a championship in nearly 20 years prior to Michael showing up at Maranello) and he isn't just a quick driver he is one of the best at helping develop and setting up a car (I mean best ever not of the current grid). My point being without Michael the Scuderia wouldn't have nearly as quick a car. To appreciate his impact just look at 2003 when the Ferrari package was NOT the class of the field. They were on shoddy Bridgestones, were down on power to BMW and basically won the championship on the shoulders of MS and their reliability.
Vandy
You also have to factor in that MS BUILT the current Ferrari team (they hadn't won a championship in nearly 20 years prior to Michael showing up at Maranello) and he isn't just a quick driver he is one of the best at helping develop and setting up a car (I mean best ever not of the current grid). My point being without Michael the Scuderia wouldn't have nearly as quick a car. To appreciate his impact just look at 2003 when the Ferrari package was NOT the class of the field. They were on shoddy Bridgestones, were down on power to BMW and basically won the championship on the shoulders of MS and their reliability.
Vandy
Also, bad example for year. The 2003 Ferrari was the best car of the field. The only time Ferrari wasn't the best car of the field since MS joined, was during his 1st 3 years there (JV, MH, MH). If I have the years wrong, I just want to say that basically when MS won the WDC with a Ferrari, he did so in the best car of the field... all other years at Ferrar that he didn't win, he didn't have the best car but came close to winning the WDC and that would have been really impressive.
05-06-2004, 08:31 AM
#126
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by ilitig8
Thats why I said in no particular order.
Thats why I said in no particular order.
Missed that part.
Yep. MS challenged Damon Hill and JV in 96 and 97 when the Williams was clearly better than the Ferrari, in fact he took JV down to the final race of the season in 97 (With questionable tatics BTW) He challened MH in both 98 and 99 and in fact brought Ferrari the Contructors title in 99 if I recall correctly.
05-06-2004, 09:45 AM
#127
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Originally posted by HelicobactEr Pylori
Two reasons for them not being able to keep up, either money-wise or technologically-wise. They either don't work as hard as Ferrari or they are simply not as smart as Ferrari in running their teams.
Two reasons for them not being able to keep up, either money-wise or technologically-wise. They either don't work as hard as Ferrari or they are simply not as smart as Ferrari in running their teams.
05-07-2004, 10:47 AM
#130
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Originally posted by DEVO
I would say MS is a big factor but without Brawn/Todt and company (his crew from Bennetton) I don't think MS alone could have changed Ferrari into what they are now.
Also, bad example for year. The 2003 Ferrari was the best car of the field. The only time Ferrari wasn't the best car of the field since MS joined, was during his 1st 3 years there (JV, MH, MH). If I have the years wrong, I just want to say that basically when MS won the WDC with a Ferrari, he did so in the best car of the field... all other years at Ferrar that he didn't win, he didn't have the best car but came close to winning the WDC and that would have been really impressive.
I would say MS is a big factor but without Brawn/Todt and company (his crew from Bennetton) I don't think MS alone could have changed Ferrari into what they are now.
Also, bad example for year. The 2003 Ferrari was the best car of the field. The only time Ferrari wasn't the best car of the field since MS joined, was during his 1st 3 years there (JV, MH, MH). If I have the years wrong, I just want to say that basically when MS won the WDC with a Ferrari, he did so in the best car of the field... all other years at Ferrar that he didn't win, he didn't have the best car but came close to winning the WDC and that would have been really impressive.
I agree that Jean and Ross are a big part of the Ferrari turn-around BUT they are at Ferrari because of the elder Schumacher, they were eager to follow him because they think he is very, very special.
As an aside MS again did his standard Friday practice this AM, threw down the fastest lap of the day and spent the remainder of practice 1 and 2 working on set up. British American Racing is continuing to show they have the most HP on the grid (~920hp) and if it weren't for a tiny bit of the reliability problems from last year the Honda engine would be the best on the grid.
Vandy
For those that don't watch F1 but are intrigued:
tomorrow 8am Speed Channel Qualifying
Sunday 7:30 am Speed Channel ACURA pre race show 8am race
05-07-2004, 12:51 PM
#131
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For 2003... apply the point system of 2002 and you will see clearly that the F2003 GA was the class of the field.
Also, I'm not questioning that MS is a talented driver but at this point I want to see how good he truly is. So every comparison is speculative with the exception of RB but as good as RB is, I don't think he is the closest to MS in talent (from the current field).
Also, I'm not questioning that MS is a talented driver but at this point I want to see how good he truly is. So every comparison is speculative with the exception of RB but as good as RB is, I don't think he is the closest to MS in talent (from the current field).
05-07-2004, 03:15 PM
#132
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Still don't agree (saw the old point system discussed lots last year). Just think through all the 02 races in your mind, the red cars just destroyed everyone, RB looked steller as well. Fast forward to 03, MS had to fight for the wins and at times they looked very weak, RB was usually well down, though they did come on late. Had Michael been in a Macca or a Willy he would have sewn the WDC up by July. Now had the prancing pony been shod with French tires instead of Japanese they would have been the class of the field for 75% of the year as opposed to 25%.
Vandy
Vandy
05-08-2004, 11:36 AM
#133
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Ok... forget the points. Count how many wins Ferrari had for 2003, they had 8 out of 16. And a Ferrari (in some cases 2) was in the top 6th (yes the points go out to 8th) in all but 2 races. I don't know how much more dominating you can be and not be considered the best car on the grid.
05-08-2004, 06:00 PM
#134
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Yep, thats my point. In 2002 any mid level driver could have won the WDC in a Ferrari, ABSOLUTE domination look at Ruben's points and the rest of the field, compare that to 2003. In 2003 it was the drivers abilities that won the WDC. Over the full course of the year the Macca had the best pace, the Williams had the best pace in latter part of the season, they just did not have equal skill at the helm. Had Michael been in a Macca the WDC would have been wrapped up long before Rubens crossed the line in Japan, another 2002. This year Macca and BAR changed places, Ferrari once again has regained dominace thus far and the rest of the grid has pretty much stayed the same. 3 of MS's WDCs have been with the best car on the grid, 3 have been without benifit of the best car, in the latter case arguably more than anyone in this situation. Fangio moved from team to team following the best car on the grid, 5 WDCs/5 teams and Senna and Prost both won most of their WDCs with the best car on the grid.
Bottom line MS and Ferrari were rather dominate in 2003 (especially viewed via the old points overlay) but the F2003GA was a upper mid pack car without the hands of MS and some luck with weather.
Vandy
PS agree to disagree
Bottom line MS and Ferrari were rather dominate in 2003 (especially viewed via the old points overlay) but the F2003GA was a upper mid pack car without the hands of MS and some luck with weather.
Vandy
PS agree to disagree
05-09-2004, 09:00 AM
#135
Race Director
Another race and another yawner. Other than the start and first few laps there's no reason to watch F1. At least a Honda finished in the points again. Tune in next time for more of the same.
05-09-2004, 11:12 AM
#136
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The only thing i have to look forward to is the perfect season. Which seems possible the way things are going. I mean a nursed Ferrari still lapping cars. Come on.
I do have to say that MS's 1994 drive was amazing. That was pure talent.
I do have to say that MS's 1994 drive was amazing. That was pure talent.
05-09-2004, 11:26 AM
#137
GEEZER
Micheal Shumacher can lick my nuts.
That is all.
That is all.
05-09-2004, 11:57 AM
#138
Senior Moderator
I find it interesting that in most sports, star power is good. Michael Jordon and the bulls domniating basketball was a good thing to alot of people, even outside of chicago. It made the sport interesting and arguably exciting.
But in F1, it doesnt seem that way. Maybe because there is no geographical attachhment to any of the drivers/teams
But in F1, it doesnt seem that way. Maybe because there is no geographical attachhment to any of the drivers/teams
05-09-2004, 12:14 PM
#139
GEEZER
Originally posted by fdl
Maybe because there is no geographical attachhment to any of the drivers/teams
Maybe because there is no geographical attachhment to any of the drivers/teams
05-09-2004, 12:18 PM
#140
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by 1killercls
Anyways, just a thought
as to what separates this sport; and why a dominating team in F1 is so much more of a problem than in other sports.
05-09-2004, 12:22 PM
#141
GEEZER
I see what you mean.
05-10-2004, 09:12 AM
#143
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by biker
Another race and another yawner. Other than the start and first few laps there's no reason to watch F1. At least a Honda finished in the points again. Tune in next time for more of the same.
Another race and another yawner. Other than the start and first few laps there's no reason to watch F1. At least a Honda finished in the points again. Tune in next time for more of the same.
After the first round of pit stops you can change the channel. There was a glimmer of hope yesterday when shumey had a problem and was running 1:20 for a few laps. But then he went back to 1:17's and you knew the car would be fine. Even with him taking it easy the other cars have no chance.
How bad must it be for the McLaren's to be lapped by just about everyone. How could the car have fallen so fast? Its puzzling.
I missed qualifying, any reason Button finnishes to low? His race pace seemed pretty good. If he started in the top 6 he may have had another podium.
05-10-2004, 10:26 AM
#144
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Yeup, button screwed up a corner during qualifing. Sato could have had poll because he managed a 1:14 (and change) during practice, which was the fastest time during the whole weekend.
05-10-2004, 10:38 AM
#145
Originally posted by DEVO
Sato could have had poll because he managed a 1:14 (and change) during practice, which was the fastest time during the whole weekend.
Sato could have had poll because he managed a 1:14 (and change) during practice, which was the fastest time during the whole weekend.
05-10-2004, 04:43 PM
#146
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The reason Button blew it was because is rear tire almost came off it's rim causing him to almost lose control and going off the track for just a moment.
05-11-2004, 02:55 AM
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Originally posted by fdl
I find it interesting that in most sports, star power is good. Michael Jordon and the bulls domniating basketball was a good thing to alot of people, even outside of chicago. It made the sport interesting and arguably exciting.
But in F1, it doesnt seem that way. Maybe because there is no geographical attachhment to any of the drivers/teams
I find it interesting that in most sports, star power is good. Michael Jordon and the bulls domniating basketball was a good thing to alot of people, even outside of chicago. It made the sport interesting and arguably exciting.
But in F1, it doesnt seem that way. Maybe because there is no geographical attachhment to any of the drivers/teams
Even the king of spain came to greet him.
Sato drove an excellent race, hats off to him.
BTW I met him in the pit lane !
Button
Sato
Hopefully the new rules coming up will make racing closer
Ernie
05-11-2004, 08:09 AM
#148
Senior Moderator
Williams deny Villeneuve test, for now
TSN.ca Staff
5/11/2004
Over the weekend in Spain, news swept through the Formula One paddock that Jacques Villeneuve would be testing with BMW-Williams as part of a possible return to the team in 2005.
When the former world champion reportedly showed up at Paul Ricard circuit in France, the rumors took on a life of their own.
However, a BMW-Williams spokesperson downplayed speculation Villeneuve was set to rejoin the team or test with them this week.
Several British newspapers say Villeneuve flew from Monaco by private jet to be with Williams in southern France with one going so far as to say the Canadian underwent a seat fitting.
"To deny circulating rumours, (Jacques) is not being seat fitted at the track for us this week or indeed testing for us in France," said the Williams official and Villeneuve's agent, Craig Pollock, told his official website the reports were a "figment of an over-ripe imagination".
"We are actively considering a wide range of potential candidates as would be reasonably expected and to this end we have had discussions with many drivers whose names have been the subject of recent press speculation," explained the spokesperson.
"However... a discussion does not mean necessarily that a driver is under active consideration for any number of reasons.
"It is anticipated that the team may be in a position to confirm driver appointments by August."
Williams technical director Patrick Head tells The Guardian newspaper that if Villeneuve had shown up at Paul Ricard, it was not at their invitation. However, he did confirm that both he and owner Frank Williams spoke with Villeneuve "some weeks ago". He added that there are no specific plans to test Villeneuve at this time.
Even Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone has jumped on the 'Villeneuve Returns' bandwagon, saying he's been trying to get the former world champion back with Williams "for a long time".
"I never felt Jacques should have left the sport in the first place and it would be fantastic to see him back," Ecclestone tells the British Sun newspaper. "He was always exciting and if he was given a competitive car he could really show what he can still do."
TSN.ca Staff
5/11/2004
Over the weekend in Spain, news swept through the Formula One paddock that Jacques Villeneuve would be testing with BMW-Williams as part of a possible return to the team in 2005.
When the former world champion reportedly showed up at Paul Ricard circuit in France, the rumors took on a life of their own.
However, a BMW-Williams spokesperson downplayed speculation Villeneuve was set to rejoin the team or test with them this week.
Several British newspapers say Villeneuve flew from Monaco by private jet to be with Williams in southern France with one going so far as to say the Canadian underwent a seat fitting.
"To deny circulating rumours, (Jacques) is not being seat fitted at the track for us this week or indeed testing for us in France," said the Williams official and Villeneuve's agent, Craig Pollock, told his official website the reports were a "figment of an over-ripe imagination".
"We are actively considering a wide range of potential candidates as would be reasonably expected and to this end we have had discussions with many drivers whose names have been the subject of recent press speculation," explained the spokesperson.
"However... a discussion does not mean necessarily that a driver is under active consideration for any number of reasons.
"It is anticipated that the team may be in a position to confirm driver appointments by August."
Williams technical director Patrick Head tells The Guardian newspaper that if Villeneuve had shown up at Paul Ricard, it was not at their invitation. However, he did confirm that both he and owner Frank Williams spoke with Villeneuve "some weeks ago". He added that there are no specific plans to test Villeneuve at this time.
Even Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone has jumped on the 'Villeneuve Returns' bandwagon, saying he's been trying to get the former world champion back with Williams "for a long time".
"I never felt Jacques should have left the sport in the first place and it would be fantastic to see him back," Ecclestone tells the British Sun newspaper. "He was always exciting and if he was given a competitive car he could really show what he can still do."
05-12-2004, 01:09 PM
#149
Senior Moderator
Jacques Villeneuve is on a short-list of four drivers for two spots with BMW-Williams in 2005, according to Autosport magazine.
Sources tell the motorsport publication that Williams have identified Villeneuve alongwith Jaguar's Mark Webber, McLaren's David Coulthard and Giancarlo Fisichella of Sauber as its 'A' list of candidates.
If Williams is unable to come to terms with any of those drivers, the 'B' list reportedly consists of IRL champion Scott Dixon, Jordan driver Nick Heidfeld and test drivers Marc Gene and Antonio Pizzonia.
Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya has already signed to drive for McLaren next year. Autosport reports that Ralf Schumacher is just a signature away from joining Toyota, meaning there will be two openings instead of one with the Grove-based team.
Jenson Button was believed to be high on the list but his contract with BAR-Honda will prevent him from making any switch next season.
Webber's deal with Jaguar includes a clause that allows him to go elsewhere if the team does not achieve certain benchmarks this season. With just one point after five races, it appears highly unlikely they will fulfill those clauses. However, Renault boss Flavio Briatore holds an option on Webber's services and its believed his long-term future is with Renault.
While no official announcement has been made, Coulthard is likely the odd-man out at McLaren, and he has made no secret of his desire to return with the team which gave him his Formula One start a decade ago. Coulthard tells Motorsport News he's "happy with the direction things are going" in talks with other teams about next year.
Villeneuve also broke into Formula One with Williams and won his only world championship with the team in 1997. The Canadian, who is on sabbatical this year after he wasn't re-signed by BAR-Honda, is also good friends with Coulthard.
Fisichella joined Sauber this past year in order to get closer to his ultimate goal of driving for Ferrari. However, both Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello have agreed to contract extensions with Ferrari through 2006. Fisichella's deal with the Swiss-based team is believed to have an out clause that allows him to move to a more competitive team.
Sources tell the motorsport publication that Williams have identified Villeneuve alongwith Jaguar's Mark Webber, McLaren's David Coulthard and Giancarlo Fisichella of Sauber as its 'A' list of candidates.
If Williams is unable to come to terms with any of those drivers, the 'B' list reportedly consists of IRL champion Scott Dixon, Jordan driver Nick Heidfeld and test drivers Marc Gene and Antonio Pizzonia.
Colombian Juan Pablo Montoya has already signed to drive for McLaren next year. Autosport reports that Ralf Schumacher is just a signature away from joining Toyota, meaning there will be two openings instead of one with the Grove-based team.
Jenson Button was believed to be high on the list but his contract with BAR-Honda will prevent him from making any switch next season.
Webber's deal with Jaguar includes a clause that allows him to go elsewhere if the team does not achieve certain benchmarks this season. With just one point after five races, it appears highly unlikely they will fulfill those clauses. However, Renault boss Flavio Briatore holds an option on Webber's services and its believed his long-term future is with Renault.
While no official announcement has been made, Coulthard is likely the odd-man out at McLaren, and he has made no secret of his desire to return with the team which gave him his Formula One start a decade ago. Coulthard tells Motorsport News he's "happy with the direction things are going" in talks with other teams about next year.
Villeneuve also broke into Formula One with Williams and won his only world championship with the team in 1997. The Canadian, who is on sabbatical this year after he wasn't re-signed by BAR-Honda, is also good friends with Coulthard.
Fisichella joined Sauber this past year in order to get closer to his ultimate goal of driving for Ferrari. However, both Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello have agreed to contract extensions with Ferrari through 2006. Fisichella's deal with the Swiss-based team is believed to have an out clause that allows him to move to a more competitive team.
05-18-2004, 02:54 PM
#150
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What do you guys think of F1's premier race (Monaco GP)? This is the only race that I think should be removed from the calendar, it's a real snoozefest but if it rains it will be interesting.
05-18-2004, 03:01 PM
#151
Photography Nerd
Monaco is probably one of the nicest tracks (visually) but definitely the most boring to watch. It's also the most expensive on the circuit if you want to watch it from the stands. I could do without it.
05-18-2004, 03:06 PM
#152
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by DEVO
This is the only race that I think should be removed from the calendar,
This is the only race that I think should be removed from the calendar,
Ok I know there's no passing but its arguably the most famous race in the world.Not to mention is uniqueness. No other F1 venue looks like that. (Is the the only street course in the series?) Its almost like watching CART race, but without the passing.
05-18-2004, 03:14 PM
#154
Photography Nerd
I think it's more of an exhibition event than anything. I'd like to see it turned into an event like the Goodwood Festival of Speed (http://www.goodwood.co.uk/fos/) where you could have F1 cars past and present come out for one weekend to run a few laps for the fans. Goodwood looks like a great event and I'd like to make a trip to see it some year. They usually have F1 cars there too.
05-19-2004, 09:20 AM
#160
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Originally posted by domn
Ok I know there's no passing but its arguably the most famous race in the world.
Not to mention is uniqueness. No other F1 venue looks like that. (Is the the only street course in the series?) Its almost like watching CART race, but without the passing.
Ok I know there's no passing but its arguably the most famous race in the world.Not to mention is uniqueness. No other F1 venue looks like that. (Is the the only street course in the series?) Its almost like watching CART race, but without the passing.
Australia and Montreal are partially street courses as well. But yes it's the only real street course in F1.
I wouldn't know about CART, I stopped watching it many years ago. That has to be the most artificial "passing" series along with the IRL and NASCAR.