DEVO

What are you disagring with? You are saying what I just said and that is that Ferrari does not let their drivers race each other. RB is a #2 driver and I'm betting it's stated in RB's contract that he will remain such. Do you really think MS wants a faster driver? No.

Williams give their driver's the same equipment (most of the time) and let them race. There are no #1/#2 drivers at Williams until there is a clear victor between the 2. Ferrari on the other hand can and have done, order their #2 driver to pull over. Lame, and to be honest it takes away from the greatness that MS is.

tsXgtp

no, youre right. I mis-understood

Helicobacter Pylori

Maybe our dear Brazilan RB doesn't quite live up to Alain-and-Aryton standard. But he sucks? I don't think so. In many races, he's the only one chasing MS out there.

2003 result:
1 Michael Schumacher 93
2 Kimi Räikkönen 91
3 Juan Pablo Montoya 82
4 Rubens Barrichello 65

2002 result:
1 Michael Schumacher 144
2 Rubens Barrichello 77
3 Juan Pablo Montoya 50
4 Ralf Schumacher 42

2001 result:
1 Michael Schumacher 123
2 David Coulthard 65
3 Rubens Barrichello 56
4 Ralf Schumacher 49

2000 result:
1 Michael Schumacher 108
2 Mika Hakkinen 89
3 David Coulthard 73
4 Rubens Barrichello 62

1999 result (RB in Stewart-Ford!!!!!):
1 Mika Hakkinen 76
2 Eddie Irvine 74
3 Heinz-Harald Frentzen 54
4 David Coulthard 48
5 Michael Schumacher 44
6 Ralf Schumacher 35
7 Rubens Barrichello 21

cmf

Williams doesn't have # 1 and 2 drivers because they are not producing wins like Ferrari is. If Williams was on top you could almost bet that they would keep those guys separated. They don't do it now because they have a lot to lose. Their drivers have to be aggressive to get those wins, and won't let one another get in the way of that happening. Schumacher dominates the circuits, that is why Rubens takes a back seat to him because he is not very consistent like Schumacher.

DEVO

I don't buy that for a second. WilliamsF1 is all about the sport. Ferrari is all about the win at all cost. Williams have a history of giving their drivers the same equipment with the same support. McLaren to the same degree. I know when JPM and KR are partnered together next year, you will see both drivers demand the same amount of attention from their team. It will be an interesting match up for once.

DEVO

Who said he sucked? But those stats don't make him shine either. Ferrari have had the best car for the last 4 years, 5 if you include this year. Yet only once he came in 2nd place and that was because the team was behind him 100%, including MS.

Helicobacter Pylori

Everyone here loves F1. No need to argue over their favorite drivers/teams.

Put me in Ferrari. I promise that I'll try to beat da safety car

cmf

Safety car will take you off the line though, you'll have a hard time getting the car going after you stall the engine.

fdl

Schumacher: 18 wins unrealistic

4/28/2004

Michael Schumacher says it's unrealistic to think he will win all 18 Formula One races this season.

The Ferrari driver has started the year winning all four races and leads his closest rival in the championship by 16 points.

"I don't want to have anything to do with such speculation, not only because it's too early, but also because I believe it's totally unrealistic," Schumacher writes on his personal website, adding such talk demeans the other F1 teams.

"All the teams work extremely hard and improve constantly. In the next race already things could be very different. If we hadn't known that for years, we would not have been so successful."

Ferrari boss Jean Todt says Schumacher's chief competition will likely come from BAR-Honda, who have shown a marked improvement in their performance over the last few seasons. Jenson Button has finished on the podium in three straight races and at Imola, Ferrari's "home" circuit, they started on pole.

"I'm scared when I see who we are fighting against," says Todt. "If you have a company like Honda involved in this business, it's not just to be part of the race. They want to be competitive and I'm sure that what they are getting at the moment is probably pleasing them, but it is not enough."

Ferrari technical director Ross Brawn says while winning every race is the target, there are serveral circuits where the world champions will face a strong challenge, such as Hockenheim and Hungary.

fdl

Villeneuve eyes Formula One return: manager

dom

I saw that earlier today. Great he'll go to Wiiliams who are on the way down while the team he helped build are on the way up.

I say he fights to go to Ferrari.

DEVO

I would like to see that return as well (to williams not Ferrari).

crisco

Ferrari won't touch him with a ten foot pole. He'll be nothing but bad news for Williams either...........

fdl

I dont know if I like the idea of a more "low tech" F1. I want to see HP increase, not decrease. I want to see lap times decrease not increase. Its not just about the drivers, its about the cars. But maybe thats just me.



F1 changes coming as early as 2006

5/4/2004

MONTE CARLO (AP) - Formula One teams agreed to sweeping changes Tuesday, hoping to level the field and prevent Michael Schumacher from extending his domination for years to come.

The six-time world champion has won all four races this season for the free-spending Ferrari team. Among the biggest changes: cutting costs so smaller teams can compete with the rich.

"The basic idea is to make the racing closer and more interesting and I think we'll succeed in that," said Max Mosley, head of the International Automobile Federation. "Whether it will be close enough remains to be seen."

Another major change would have all teams using the same tires, starting as early as 2006. That should help end the current competition between tire manufacturers, which has a role in determining the outcome of world championships.

Spare cars, which drivers use if they crash during qualifying, could also be banned starting next year.

Teams meeting in Monaco also agreed to reduce the power of F1 engines and make them last longer than one race to keep down costs. Teams also agreed to use standard brakes and eliminate electronic driver aids.

"Except for minor details, there's virtually complete acceptance of these very revolutionary proposals," Mosley said. "I couldn't have asked for more from the meeting."

The aim is to give F1's smaller teams more of a chance against teams like Ferrari, whose dominance threatens to drive away television viewers bored by races with little overtaking or exciting wheel-to-wheel battles.

Richer teams spend heavily on finding new technologies, lighter materials and electronic gizmos that give their cars an edge. Critics argue that gives the richest teams an unfair advantage, places a premium on technicians rather than driver skills and discourages new teams from venturing into the costly world of F1.

Manufacturers together spend as much as one billion euros ($1.7 billion Cdn) a year on engines for 14 of the 20 cars that currently race, Mosley said - an amount he called "simply not sustainable."

He said engine companies agreed to work out measures to cut engine costs by 50 per cent. Making all teams run on the same tires will also slash costs and make racing more fair.

Team bosses said they were satisfied.

"I was enormously pleased," said Eddie Jordan, whose team has struggled. "It was all one-sided, very positive about cost savings, the key factor."

"There wasn't any real argument on any issue," added David Richards of the BAR-Honda team. The measures will "be very positive from the public's point of view."

dom

Think of it this way. Would you rather watch MS set and break lap records in every race and win every race without competition or would you rather watch the pace slow down but have passing attempts, 1 second not 30 second gaps to 2nd place and close racing in general.

I personally can't stand watching F1 these days. Anything has to be better than what going on today.

fdl

I'd rather see competition, but not at the expense of the cars and technology.

Besides, why all the effort to find a way to make him lose? If hes the best hes the best. Barichello is driving the same car and he is not winning races.

dom

I've often wondered about that. Is Shumey that much better than evryone else? or is HIS car that much better?

Is Barrichellos car the problem, or is it him? I'd have to guess its him especially after last weeks peroformance. He could'nt even manage a pass attempt, while MS almost lapped the feild.

DEVO

fdl,

Why do you think these changes are targeted at any one team or driver (Ferrari/MS)? If he is the best then he will be the best regardless of the rules. RB may be driving the same car but he is not given the same support as MS and plus it's in his contract to drive in a supporting role to MS.

Plus I don't think RB is any where near the level that MS is at. On occasions he is but it's rare.

I would love to see MS and JV on the same team, or JPM or KR. In fact when Mika H was in, I would have love to see them paired up at a team that would offer equal support to both drivers.

domn,

About the car... Ferrari have the best had the best last year and the year before that and the year before that... since then they have always manipulated the system in their favor. Do you honestly think Ferrari protested the single engine rule last year? NO!!!! They knew that they had the most reliable engine and most powerful of the bunch, they knew that if they pushed for this rule in the name of reduced cost they would get it, advantage Ferrari. Prior to this Ferrari got Berrylium banned from the sport once they figured out that they couldn't master it's use as McLaren did. The list goes on and on.

fdl

Ridiculous.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Actually I think it's MS. Once Button pulled off into the pits, MS pulled some ridiculous lap times going flat out. It was very impressive. The car is good, but a combination of an excellent setup and driver ability did come into play.

DEVO

But that's some crappy reporter's opinion on the matter. Name a single rule that goes directly against MS or Ferrari. The only one thing that I can think of is the points system which didn't favor Ferrari last year but this year it's working for him.

DEVO

Lung Fu Mo Shi,

If I design a car that fits you perfectly and behaves in a manner that you like. and everything is designed to be setup around your driving style... Let's also assume that you drive radically different then I do, to the point that if I were to drive your car I would find that i would have to change a lot in order for it to work for me. Who has the advantage? You or me?

You can apply the same analogy to Bridgestone tires. Don't you find it odd that none of the other Bridgestone shod cars are no where to be found in the race. Why? Because Bridgestone has built a tire that was designed around Ferrari which was designed around MS.

So why I truly believe MS is probably one of the most talented drivers he is driving the best car. No doubt about it.

Mokijoki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fdl
[B]I dont know if I like the idea of a more "low tech" F1. I want to see HP increase, not decrease. I want to see lap times decrease not increase. Its not just about the drivers, its about the cars. But maybe thats just me.



fdl, I'd normally agree with you. After all it is F1. But then again, the costs involved these days are tremendous. Only a few teams have enough budget to be competitive. A few teams have already dissapeared completely and others while still being in F1 are fighting not to become last and only have a chance of scoring a point if half of the front runners falls out of the race... Most of the proposed rule changes are to reduce the needed budget to run a formula1 team; to bring back the competition; to have more cars compete for points...
The rule about smaller engines might be interresting. The revs are going to go even more up, probably past 20.000 rpm's. Imagine how that will sound.... Honda should be pretty happy with the smaller and higher revving engines as they are pretty good at that...

dom

Ferrari's budget = 450 Million US

Minardi's Budget = 35 Million US

Mokijoki

Exactly....

fdl

ya, but its like that in every sport.

Dan Martin

No kidding. Maybe the Jays should be able to have high-bounce balls pitched to them when they play the Yankees.

fdl

Nah, they just need new rules like no pitching over 60mph. Gotta make it fair

dom

Whats wrong with you guys?

Talking about baseball

And I disagree that its like that in every sport. While there will always be the rich teams, the NFL and NBA have at least adopted caps which limit spending. The NFL should be the model that every other professional sports leaugue tries to copy, including F1. Limit driver salary, and spending, say at 50 mill?

Now both of you get your ass in the Hockey thread and talk about the future of the Maple Leafs.

fdl

I'd rather have some sort of spending cap, than the silly rules they are trying to put in. But I realize this would be very hard to monitor and enforce.

Helicobacter Pylori

Running a F1 team is not different from running a business. You strive hard to utilize resources (money and technology), to develop the best product, and then compete with the market. In return, you want to make profit that will support further expansion, and in the end, dominate the market.

It's a simple role. You don't need take Economic 100 to know it. Still, the vast majority of people fail. One common characteristic among losers; they blame others rather than themselve.

Do you actually think Ferrari start out its career in F1 with the highest funding, the most reliable engine, and a freaking talented driver?

NO!

Maybe MS has the best car, best tires and best setups on the track. So what? If this strategy works for Ferrari, why not for others? You and I TV-watchers can see such strategy works so damn well that it becomes unfair to others, SO CAN OTHER TEAM MANAGERS.

Two reasons for them not being able to keep up, either money-wise or technologically-wise. They either don't work as hard as Ferrari or they are simply not as smart as Ferrari in running their teams.

So let's blame Michael Jordan for jumping too damn high cuz of he's wearing a tailor-made Air Jordan. Maybe Spalding secretly developed the ball for him too...

Dan Martin

I'm still in denial.


I watched the game from a bar last night and I felt like driving off a bridge on the way home. The funny thing is I have absolutely no interest in hockey today. I don't think I'll even watch the remaining series.

gogozy

no hockey thread about GTA to enroll, i guess no one in GTA want to talk about it. my wife was way more emotional about THE game than me, she is preganted so i have to avoid all subject related to stick, puck, Domi, Din, Ed, ice @#%#$^@#^@#$! don't want to trigger depression......

but i do agree, budject does bring some fairness, but it may not be the goal of the game... after all, in order to see who is best driver, everyone must have same setup, to see who has best engine, every car must have same driver but i do feel Honda is on it's way up to kick some butt, i do have impression that MS is a good driver but i can't wait to see Honda kicks their butt hard, and very very hard.... just love to see small company like Honda to kick big company like Toyota's butt.
anyone know Honda's F1 budget?

ilitig8

Estimated Budgets (vary by source) in millions of Euros

Ferrari 400
McLaren 265
Williams 260
Toyota 200
Honda 160
Renault 140
Jag 70
Sauber 65
Jordon 50
Minardi 30

I find it amusing you have the "impression that MS is a good driver"! Some basic stats:

Races 198 #1 all time
Wins 74 #1 all time ; #2 Prost 51 ; current driver best 13 DC
Podiums 126 #1 all time ; best current driver 60 DC
Poles 58 #2 all time ; best current driver 12 DC
total points 1087 #1 all time ; best current driver 455 DC
drivers championships 6 #1 all time ; best current driver NONE there are 19 current drivers tied with 0

In contrast JB has 70 races, 0 wins, 3 podiums, 1 pole and 68 points.

In MS's first 70 races he had 10 poles, 34 podiums, 19 wins and 2 world driver championships and all but 2 races were with Bennetton driving an anchor! (his first race was with Jordon and the 70th with Ferrari neither of these scored podiums, poles or wins) Statistically MS is the best driver ever in F1 by quite a margin.

Also, at least 40% of Honda's improvement this year is due to changing from Bridgestones to Michelins this year (Ferrari still runs the inferior, though less inferior than last year, Bridgestones). Jenson is a good driver, he is in the top 5 on the grid currently, driving the 2nd best package and is doing quite well, but you might have to wait a while until JB and Honda kick Ferrari and Michael's butt hard...probably until HeII freezes over.

Vandy

biker

And you wonder why Ferraris cost so much...

kurt_bradley

Also take into consideration, with this whole budget talk, that Michael makes $70 million this season. Sick huh? He's worth it IMO. I don't think that they should restrict teams that spend more and win more. That's part of competition. Though I am not a fan of them, look at the Yankees. Big budgets that spend like crazy for a strong, well-rounded staff kill all. Bottom line. Mr. Eccelstone has done enough with rule changes in the last 3 years to help level the playing field. Look how much that has done to stop Ferrari. While I agree that last season was quite exciting to see the championships come down the the last 2 races, I don't think that they should go crazy trying too hard to keep that up. Let the teams make the sport more compeditive with their own might. Not the FIA.

dom

Hmmm, I've heard that Toyota has the biggest budget, even bigger than Ferrari. Or maybe I heard they were capable of having the biggest budget. Maybe they only find the need to spend 200 million?.

Your MS stats prove nothing ! JV is the best of all time

DEVO

MS's salary isn't strickly from a single source (i.e. Ferrari), he get a lot from Shell/Marlboro as well.

I would say MS was worth his salary when Ferrari wasn't the best car on the grid. When he first joined for example. 3 years he came close with a car that wasn't the best. Now, I'm convinced that any of the top driver's in a red car could be leading 4 to nil.

ilitig8

[QUOTE]Originally posted by domn
Hmmm, I've heard that Toyota has the biggest budget, even bigger than Ferrari. Or maybe I heard they were capable of having the biggest budget. Maybe they only find the need to spend 200 million?.

Your MS stats prove nothing ! JV is the best of all time [/QUOTE

Ferrari out spends everyone by a significant margin, doubtful that Toyota will find the other 200mil (more like 240 in US $s), it is more likely they will pull out of F1, rumored last year and after their dismal start this year more likely.


JV the best of all time? LOL He isn't even the best driver named Villeneuve! ( I noticed the smile!)



As to MS salary it is ~35 million, the rest comes from bonuses, merchandise, endorsements and personal sponsorships.

For the record my top ten of all time in no particular order:

Gilles Villeneuve
Michael Schumacher
Aryton Senna
Sir Jackie Stewart
Nigel Mansell
Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alain Prost
Stirling Moss
Alberto Ascari


Vandy

dom

Very agruable, I'd think alot of people would agrue with GV being ahead of MS and AS.

I'd have MS at the top follwed by AS and then probly Fangio. Its really hard IMO to compare drivers 30 years ago to today's drivers because of the advancements in technology.