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Old 03-31-2009, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
^^^^^ Not so fast. The other top cars will catch up the Brawn's real fast once they also start implementing the controversal rear diffusers.
their factories are already prototyping I'm sure.
Old 04-01-2009, 08:28 AM
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Not so fast. I don't believe it's just a matter of putting in a new diffuser for the other teams to match the Brawn. The other cars will also need a redesign of the front of the cars to allow the air flowing to the diffusers to work well. Also, don't forget that the Williams and Toyota are also running the trick diffusers, and they are both way behind the Brawn in speed, so the Brawn isn't fast just because of the diffusers. By all accounts, Button was running conservatively the whole race, and he got pole in qualifying despite being heavy on fuel. If there were no safety car periods during the race, Button would have dissapeared from the field.

I think the biggest problem for the other teams are the restrictions on testing now in place. Even when those teams bring out their new diffusers, they won't be able to develop it properly before the race.
Old 04-01-2009, 09:32 AM
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I think some of you are misinterpreting the seemingly "instant" success of the team. If you recall, Honda knew they were bottom feeders last year, so they chose to switch their focus into developing the '09 car mid season. Development never stopped on the car.

I'd say that Brawn GP's early success can only partly be attributed to new management... to me, the clear reason for their success was that HondaF1 put a lot of time and money into developing the '09 car vs. other teams.
Old 04-01-2009, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Cmanuel
I think some of you are misinterpreting the seemingly "instant" success of the team. If you recall, Honda knew they were bottom feeders last year, so they chose to switch their focus into developing the '09 car mid season. Development never stopped on the car.

I'd say that Brawn GP's early success can only partly be attributed to new management... to me, the clear reason for their success was that HondaF1 put a lot of time and money into developing the '09 car vs. other teams.
Keep in mind that they had the least testing time out of any team.
Old 04-01-2009, 11:03 AM
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From what I've read (primarily Racecar Engineering magazine), it seems that actual track testing is significantly less important these days than it was 5+ years ago or at least "required" much less than it used to be.

I think a great majority of the actual design and development work these days is done with software. The purpose of actual track time seems to be primarily for verifying the results of the computer simulations and to make sure these results are acceptable to the driver.
Old 04-01-2009, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dougler
Keep in mind that they had the least testing time out of any team.
True, but even so the long development of the car lead to Brawn GP topping the list at their first testing. I think this is evidence of what Billiam mentioned above.

Here's a good article after 2 weeks of testing were concluded dated march 21st

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=45302

Brawn: ""The BGP 001 car is the result of 15 months of intensive development work and the team have been nothing less than fantastic in their commitment to producing two cars in time for the first race."

And even some of the engineers are saying that they have some left in the bag and should increase speed soon, dated April 1st

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,1895...129981,00.html

Everyone should also realize that BrawnGP's 1-2 Finish this past weekend is PROVISIONAL. There is still a hearing about the diffuser issues. Remember, Ferrari has a lot of pull with the FIA, and they are going to be all over this diffuser issue. I hope this thorn in the side of BrawnGP doesn't cost them their wonderful victory.
Old 04-01-2009, 01:16 PM
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As much as i love to see the Brawn team up front i thing its only a matter of time till the other teams implement the diffuser and required tweaks to make it work and will close the gap and then some. (like ferrari,renault and mcclaren) and dont leave out redbull
Old 04-01-2009, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
As much as i love to see the Brawn team up front i thing its only a matter of time till the other teams implement the diffuser and required tweaks to make it work and will close the gap and then some. (like ferrari,renault and mcclaren) and dont leave out redbull

Well, I'm wondering if there will be time to develop the larger diffuser. IIRC, the larger diffuser of the teams in question is actually a part of the bodywork. The loophole is that the bodywork is acting as a diffuser, but the diffuser itself is within size regulations IIRC.

Even if teams could quickly develop something to match this controversial diffuser design, the hearing is to be held on April 14 to determine what sort of penalties will be given, if any, or if the larger rear diffuser would be banned. I guess only time will tell, gotta wait til april 14.
Old 04-01-2009, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cmanuel
Well, I'm wondering if there will be time to develop the larger diffuser. IIRC, the larger diffuser of the teams in question is actually a part of the bodywork. The loophole is that the bodywork is acting as a diffuser, but the diffuser itself is within size regulations IIRC.

Even if teams could quickly develop something to match this controversial diffuser design, the hearing is to be held on April 14 to determine what sort of penalties will be given, if any, or if the larger rear diffuser would be banned. I guess only time will tell, gotta wait til april 14.
That's so stupid the hearing should have been this week, there's another GP this weekend and it's not really fair to the teams being accused of being outside the rules to potentially win another GP then have the points stripped. Which basically gives the other teams a 2 race handout.
Old 04-01-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Cmanuel
Well, I'm wondering if there will be time to develop the larger diffuser. IIRC, the larger diffuser of the teams in question is actually a part of the bodywork. The loophole is that the bodywork is acting as a diffuser, but the diffuser itself is within size regulations IIRC.

Even if teams could quickly develop something to match this controversial diffuser design, the hearing is to be held on April 14 to determine what sort of penalties will be given, if any, or if the larger rear diffuser would be banned. I guess only time will tell, gotta wait til april 14.
But the big dogs like ferrari/mcclaren/renault all have the resources to do so if they so choose. I bet every one of them could have something by this weekend
Old 04-01-2009, 05:42 PM
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Good points all.

I've dug up some articles that are worth a look if you are even remotely interested in this diffuser controversy:

Official F1 website discussion of diffuser issue:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...-eNbkIRyG2xTEA

Q&A on Diffuser issue:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...row-QandA.html
Highlight:
Q: Why don't the other teams just copy the fancy diffusers?
A: The diffuser is a fundamental part of the design concept of a Formula One car. Change it, and you have to change a lot of other things too.
Q: Won't Ferrari and McLaren just throw money at the problem?
A: Yes, but these days that will not be sufficient to get them out of the woods. Testing is banned outside race weekends, so it will take a long time to evaluate new parts.


In depth analysis (technical): http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73083

Last edited by Cmanuel; 04-01-2009 at 05:44 PM.
Old 04-01-2009, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cmanuel
I think some of you are misinterpreting the seemingly "instant" success of the team. If you recall, Honda knew they were bottom feeders last year, so they chose to switch their focus into developing the '09 car mid season. Development never stopped on the car.

I'd say that Brawn GP's early success can only partly be attributed to new management... to me, the clear reason for their success was that HondaF1 put a lot of time and money into developing the '09 car vs. other teams.
Please try to remember that Ross Brawn took charge of the then-Honda team in Nov 2007. It was under HIS management that the runaway '09 Brawn car was developed.

Honda had it's chance 3 times from 2005 to 2008 to develop a runaway F1 car, but blew them all. During the three years of full ownership, Honda had all the times and money to develop a superb car, but failed.

But even with the shitty, already-given-up 2008 Honda, Ross was still able to propel Barrichello from grid position 16 to finish 3rd in the 2008 British GP, under his crafty wet weather pit strategy. This is something Honda management could only dream of.

Given Ross's list of successful career achievements, there is no deny of his superb management skills. Give credit where credit is due.
Old 04-02-2009, 12:46 AM
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Well, let's just say Ross Brawn's skills + Honda's money and time = this 09 car.
Old 04-02-2009, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
Well, let's just say Ross Brawn's skills + Honda's money and time = this 09 car.
To be exact :

(Ross Brawn's skills) + (Honda's $ and time) + (Mercedes engine) = this '09 car.
Old 04-02-2009, 12:26 PM
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The Honda Motor Co. has congratulated its former Formula One team for winning last Sunday's Australian Grand Prix.

Due to the global financial crisis, the Japanese carmaker announced its complete withdrawal from the sport late last year, handing over to Ross Brawn after a management buyout.

The Brackley based team's efforts last year, however, laid the foundations of the now Brawn GP-branded BGP 001 single seater, which with Mercedes power in Australia qualified and finished in first and second places.

Moreover, the bulk of Brawn's 2009 budget was pledged by Honda to ensure theteam remained a going concern for this season.

Ross Brawn revealed at Albert Park last Saturday that Japanese executives had been in contact with him to applaud his success.

"We are incredibly delighted that our teammates, with whom we worked until last season, have started from extremely difficult circumstances to earn this victory," Honda Motor Co. said in a statement.

It added: "Congratulations to the Brawn GP Formula One team."
I still think someone at Honda needs to be canned.
Old 04-02-2009, 01:54 PM
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FYI there's an 18 page thread on the diffusers over at F1 Technical. After skimming through the last half of the thread, it looks like any declaration of the Brawn diffuser violating the rules will have to be based on the "feeder holes" used to route air from the floor to the "tunnel" in the center.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...php?f=6&t=6321
Old 04-02-2009, 06:03 PM
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Damn, I need more time to read all of that interesting stuff ^^
Old 04-02-2009, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Billiam
FYI there's an 18 page thread on the diffusers over at F1 Technical. After skimming through the last half of the thread, it looks like any declaration of the Brawn diffuser violating the rules will have to be based on the "feeder holes" used to route air from the floor to the "tunnel" in the center.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...php?f=6&t=6321
The stewards in the Australian GP didn't consider Brawn/Toyota/Williams 's rear diffusers to be illegal. So it's likely that there are different ways to interpret the diffuser regulations, and the winners are using the best form of the interpretations.
Old 04-06-2009, 08:08 AM
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Ross Brawn says his 'conscience is clear' regarding his team's controversial diffuser.

In Australia Renault boss Flavio Briatore claimed that Brawn should have alerted his rivals to the grey area in the regulations in his capacity as the head of the technical side of the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA).

But Brawn has revealed that he did suggest a tightening of the rules before starting on the design.

“If I'm frank, I didn't say 'look we're going to do this diffuser, if you don't accept this rule, we're going to do it', because I don't tell people what we're going to do," he said.

"But I did explain that I felt we should have a different set of rules to simplify what needed to be done.

"I offered them, and they were rejected, so my conscience is very clear.



"Those rules that I put on the table would've stopped a lot of things.

“It would've stopped the diffuser, it would have stopped all those barge boards around the front, and it would have cleaned the cars up, because it was clear when we started to work on the regulations that there were things you could do.

"We needed to clean the rules up, but nobody was interested.

"They're interested now..."

Brawn said he had been frustrated by the attacks from his rivals.

"I don't like some of the comments that some of the other team principals are making, but they're uneducated and uninformed," he said.

"If they looked at the facts then they would realise that.

"I've always tried to wear two hats – one that is what's good for Formula 1, and I wear that hat for a certain period, and then I take that off and think about what's good for my team.

"When there's plenty of time, you try and get the rules in the best shape that you can.

"Then when the rules are decided, you have to go flat-out on producing the best car you can within those regulations."

Despite the tensions it has given rise to, Brawn does not think the row over diffusers has damaged FOTA's unity.

"What I am pleased about is that FOTA is still operating well within its mandates," he said.

"As far as I can tell, this has not damaged FOTA.

"We have to learn to work in that way, because when we get on the track there will be instances when we get very upset with each other.

"I'll use the analogy of rugby – you go out on the field and try and kill each other, then you go back and have a beer.

"If the first time we fall out on the track it blows FOTA apart, that's no good – but I don't think that will happen."

The diffuser row will be resolved by an FIA appeal court ruling next Tuesday, with the rest of the field expected to introduce their own alternative designs if Brawn, Williams and Toyota's cars are declared definitively legal.

But Ferrari boss Stefano Domenicali thinks it will take a long time before the three teams are caught.

"The potential of that development if you started very early last year is enormous, as we have seen," he said.

"So I'm expecting that even if it's the case that it is considered okay and us and all the other teams start working on that diffuser, we will not find that kind of performance immediately, because it's a matter of the time you need to work with certain pieces."
Interesting point of view from Brawn. I doubt the diffusers will be made illegal at this point.
Old 04-06-2009, 10:26 AM
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Old 04-06-2009, 11:08 AM
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Gotta love Ross essentially calling Flavio "uneducated and uninformed".
Old 04-06-2009, 05:21 PM
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^^
Old 04-06-2009, 06:27 PM
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So now the other teams, that uses conventional diffusers, are scrambling to change their designs. I wonder if this is possible any more after FIA started the regulation limiting the F1 team budgets.
Old 04-06-2009, 06:29 PM
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^ I wonder how the testing regulations affect factory development. I.E. Wind Tunnel time.
Old 04-07-2009, 07:49 AM
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Brawn illegal in Melbourne?

Was Jenson Button's BGP001 fitted with illegal exhausts in Melbourne?

A small scandal is brewing about the legality of the winning Brawn GP cars at the Australian Grand Prix. It is claimed that the cars ran throughout the weekend with its exhaust pipes protruding from the bodywork by 10cm, which could be outside the regulations. The Brawn bodywork was changed for the Malaysian Grand Prix suggesting
that the question of legality may have been raised during the weekend.



BGP001 exhaust exit in Australian GP spec - note the protruding pipe, which is though to be in breach of the 75mm rule.



At the Malaysian GP, the bodywork had been modified to comply fully with the regulations - note the new cover over the tail pipe. Ferrari were caught out by the same regulation following the launch of its F60. Both the original Ferrai and Brawn Melbourne designs are felt to contravene the following part of the 2009 technical regulations
3.8.4
Any vertical cross section of bodywork normal to the car centre line situated in the volumes defined below must form one tangent continuous curve on its external surface. This tangent continuous curve may not contain any radius less than 75mm :

- the volume between 50mm forward of the rear wheel centre line and 300mm rearward of the rear face of the cockpit entry template, which is more than 25mm from the car centre line and more than 100mm above the reference plane. The surfaces lying within these volumes, which are situated more than 55mm forward of the rear wheel centre line, must not contain any apertures (other than those permitted by Article 3.8.5) or contain any vertical surfaces which lie normal to the centre line of the car.

3.8.5

Once the relevant bodywork surfaces are defined in accordance with Article 3.8.4, apertures may be added for the following purposes only : single apertures either side of the car centre line for the purpose of exhaust exits. These apertures may have a combined area of no more than 50,000mm2 when projected onto the surface itself.


However whilst the regulations do not specifically outlaw this approach, though they also do not specifically allow it Toyota's Pascal Vasselon told Racecar Engineering of his point of view at the pre season Algarve test, before the Brawn had even appeared "the Ferrari has a few illegal features like the exhaust pipes which are in an area where the bodywork must have a minimum radius of 75mm. They just cannot comply with this rule, we expect that rear bodywork to change quite quickly. There was a clarification that the exhaust had to comply with the bodywork rule in mid September." Ferrari was forced to change the rear bodywork on the F60 as a result of the other teams threatened protest.
Old 04-07-2009, 07:52 AM
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Its after reading things like that a salary cap with the freedom to develop a car as you see fit starts to sound like a good idea.
Old 04-15-2009, 09:56 AM
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Diffusers are legal, says the FIA.
Old 04-15-2009, 09:59 AM
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^^ Came in here to post that


In a ruling that could have major implications on the outcome of the 2009 World Championship, the International Court of Appeal has ruled that the diffusers of Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams are legal.

The verdict means there will now be a major scramble from the rest of the pack to get their diffusers up to standard.

In a short statement, the FIA declared:

'The FIA International Court of Appeal has decided to deny the appeals submitted against decisions numbered 16 to 24 taken by the Panel of the Stewards on 26 March at the 2009 Grand Prix of Australia and counting towards the 2009 FIA Formula One World Championship.

'Based on the arguments heard and evidence before it, the Court has concluded that the Stewards were correct to find that the cars in question comply with the applicable regulations.

'Full reasons for this decision will be provided in due course.'

The ruling means the teams keep the points they have won in the two races so far this season with Brawn GP's Jenson Button leading the Drivers' Championship after two victories.

At the centre of Tuesday debate aired in front of five judges, and with a remarkable 38 other personnel present - either legal counsel, team or FIA representatives - was the legality of the diffuser currently used by Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams.

The device has helped Button win the opening two grands prix of the season in Australia and Malaysia, and with Brawn GP heading the constructors' ahead of Toyota.

Although Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull and BMW Sauber argued fervently against the design, the judges have sided with the FIA and the stewards who had already determined the part was legal.

That has left Brawn GP, along with Toyota and Williams, free to race in this weekend's Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai.
http://planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5190774,00.html
Old 04-15-2009, 10:18 AM
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:53 AM
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Brawn is a genius
Old 04-15-2009, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dougler
Brawn is a genius
I literally thought the same thing as aren't many folks now.
Old 04-15-2009, 03:23 PM
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Wonder how long their advantage will hold now that its legal. Wonder how long it will take other teams to come to the plate with that design.
Old 04-15-2009, 05:16 PM
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:55 PM
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Hip, Hip, Hurray ! Go, Brawn, go !
Old 05-21-2009, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BrawnGP Facebook Newsfeed
Mercedes KERS available to Brawn GP

Tue 1:44am
The Mercedes KERS unit currently used by McLaren has been offered to Brawn GP, but it's by no means certain that the championship leading team will make use of the technology.
Will BrawnGP be invincible with the KERS or will the system will throw the cars off its pace?...
Old 05-22-2009, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Sleep_DEPRIVED_Sleeper
Will BrawnGP be invincible with the KERS or will the system will throw the cars off its pace?...
As usual, Button will have the fast car without KERS, and poor Barrichello will be given the "important task" of debugging the KERS on his heavier race car.
Old 05-22-2009, 08:01 AM
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It's not surprising that Mercedes will start backing Brawn now that McLaren is the B team. Will it be long before they put the three-pointed star logo on the car?
Old 05-22-2009, 09:40 AM
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I doubt McLaren is going to back Brawn. I think McLaren is trying to sabotage Brawn with a technology that is still unproven.
Old 05-22-2009, 05:40 PM
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the KERS mclaren is offering is (should be) the same in Hamilton's car, and i haven't seen any major malfunction (if any at all) in the previous 5 races... so it maybe a good thing for BrawnGP to have a more powerful car to fend off other teams (RBR, Toyota, Ferrari,etc.) in the upcoming races, no?
Old 05-25-2009, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by alex2364
I doubt McLaren is going to back Brawn. I think McLaren is trying to sabotage Brawn with a technology that is still unproven.
The McLaren KERS is developed by Mecedes-Benz. It's in the powertrain department, not the chassis department.

Team Brawn is the only chance that Mercedes will see daylight in the 2009 F1.


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