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Americans now owe more on student loans than on credit cards.

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Old 10-19-2011, 01:21 PM
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Americans now owe more on student loans than on credit cards.

Looks like the next financial crisis is just around the corner. Most of these loans are backed by the federal government (ie. You)

We used to have "Everyone should take out a huge mortgage and buy a house." Now it's "Everyone should go to an expensive college and exit with 50-100k debt and no job prospects"

Student Loan Debt Hits Record Levels
http://www.cnbc.com/id/44958852
Students and workers seeking retraining are borrowing extraordinary amounts of money through federal loan programs, potentially putting a huge burden on the backs of young people looking for jobs and trying to start careers.

The amount of student loans taken out last year crossed the $100 billion mark for the first time and total loans outstanding will exceed $1 trillion for the first time this year. Americans now owe more on student loans than on credit cards, reports the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

Students are borrowing twice what they did a decade ago after adjusting for inflation, the College Board reports. Total outstanding debt has doubled in the past five years — a sharp contrast to consumers reducing what's owed on home loans and credit cards.

Taxpayers and other lenders have little risk of losing money on the loans, unlike mortgages made during the real estate bubble. Congress has given the lenders, the government included, broad collection powers, far greater than those of mortgage or credit card lenders. The debt can't be shed in bankruptcy.


The credit risk falls on young people who will start adult life deeper in debt, a burden that could place a drag on the economy in the future.

"Students who borrow too much end up delaying life-cycle events such as buying a car, buying a home, getting married (and) having children," says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of FinAid.org.

"It's going to create a generation of wage slavery," says Nick Pardini, a Villanova University graduate student in finance who has warned on a blog for investors that student loans are the next credit bubble — with borrowers, rather than lenders, as the losers.

Full-time undergraduate students borrowed an average $4,963 in 2010, up 63% from a decade earlier after adjusting for inflation, the College Board reports. What's happening:

•Defaults. The portion of borrowers in default — more than nine months behind on payments — rose from 6.7% in 2007 to 8.8% in 2009, according to the most recent federal data.

•For profit-schools. The highest default rates are at for-profit schools that tend to serve lower-income students and offer courses online. The University of Phoenix, the nation's largest, got 88% of its revenue from federal programs last year, most of it from student loans.

"Federal student loans are like no other loans," says Alisa Cunningham, research chief at the Institute for Higher Education Policy. "The consequences are so high for making a mistake."
Taxpayers and other lenders have little risk of losing money on the loans, unlike mortgages made during the real estate bubble. Congress has given the lenders, the government included, broad collection powers, far greater than those of mortgage or credit card lenders. The debt can't be shed in bankruptcy.
If they say so

Last edited by doopstr; 10-19-2011 at 01:25 PM.
Old 10-19-2011, 10:01 PM
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Tuition has raised 600% in the past 30 years, that's why students leave with so much debt.

Plus, most public universities and some private are just in it for profit. It's not about education, it's about how good the football team is and how popular the school is.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:45 AM
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Many people are very ignorant of the real world job market. They go to an expensive school, get a degree in women's studies, graduate owing $75k, and then complain how they were cheated by the system.

In order for school to make financial sense, the expected income of the chosen profession must be high enough such that the cost of the education is outweighed by the increase in income due to the degree.

If your profession pays $50k a year on start and you end up paying $40k for school, that's reasonable. If your profession has very low job prospects, and, if employed, pays $25k a year, and you pay $80k for school, that's a stupid decision.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dmikon
Many people are very ignorant of the real world job market. They go to an expensive school, get a degree in women's studies, graduate owing $75k, and then complain how they were cheated by the system.

In order for school to make financial sense, the expected income of the chosen profession must be high enough such that the cost of the education is outweighed by the increase in income due to the degree.

If your profession pays $50k a year on start and you end up paying $40k for school, that's reasonable. If your profession has very low job prospects, and, if employed, pays $25k a year, and you pay $80k for school, that's a stupid decision.


people who go to private school and spend lots of money for a major like womens study is retarded honestly.

Then there's the people that are pre-med and graduate with a 2.5 GPA that wont get into any med school and are pretty much doomed.
Old 10-20-2011, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by speedemon90

Then there's the people that are pre-med and graduate with a 2.5 GPA that wont get into any med school and are pretty much doomed.
The world will always need ditch diggers.
Old 10-20-2011, 11:11 AM
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Yep. I have zero credit card debt but $50k in student loans.

I have a decent paying job, so it's not all bad...but I really wish I didn't have the loans. If I could do it all over again...

Originally Posted by dmikon
If your profession pays $50k a year on start and you end up paying $40k for school, that's reasonable. If your profession has very low job prospects, and, if employed, pays $25k a year, and you pay $80k for school, that's a stupid decision.
I suppose by this logic I'm not doing too bad. Pre tax I make $71k/yr.

Still...I could do so many other things with that money! lol

Last edited by thunder04; 10-20-2011 at 11:15 AM.
Old 10-20-2011, 01:12 PM
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Thank god i graduated in 2000. I think i owed about 12k in loans.
Old 10-20-2011, 02:09 PM
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I still have $12.4K in outstanding student loans, but they're at a such ridiculously low interest rate that I won't pay them off until shortly after my wife starts working full time again. Of course, I also was smart and became an engineer, knowing that within ten years of me graduating I'd be at six figures.
Old 10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
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Is this because bankruptcy can wipe out what you owe to the credit card, but not student loans?
Old 10-20-2011, 11:35 PM
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School loans are becoming like mortgages back in the pre-2008 days.

"I'll borrow all I can for this mortgage. Why not? House values never go down!"

"I'll borrow all I can to go to <insert name of expensive school here>. Why not? Degree from <said expensive school> means I will make a ton of money and employers will drown me in job offers upon graduation!"
Old 10-21-2011, 09:37 AM
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^ I got a job with the county office of education right out of high school doing some tech stuff and my boss and I were talking about college and the cost...he said, at the time (2004/2005), that the cost of education is irrelevant as it will pay for itself and to not worry about the debt because it's a "good debt".

I don't think that's such a case today. In some fields, yes, but in others (especially those that are flooded), definitely not.
Old 10-21-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by thunder04
^ I got a job with the county office of education right out of high school doing some tech stuff and my boss and I were talking about college and the cost...he said, at the time (2004/2005), that the cost of education is irrelevant as it will pay for itself and to not worry about the debt because it's a "good debt".
There's no such thing as "Good Debt"
Old 10-21-2011, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by joedokes28
There's no such thing as "Good Debt"
True in 99% of cases. The one case where it fails is if the debt interest is lower than the return from the debt. For example, suppose you could put money into a guaranteed savings account at 8% (lol) interest, if you could borrow at 5% to invest at the 8%, that would be good debt.

Education is never "good" debt. It can be worthwhile debt, but it's not good. If you borrow $150,000 to go to med school, become a dermatologist and make $200,000+ a year until you retire, that's certainly worthwhile debt. However, the dermatologist that had his/her med school bill paid for by mom and dad, is in a better position than the one with $150,000 to pay back with interest.
Old 11-07-2011, 06:41 PM
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Help Students Run the Numbers on Higher Education’s Worth: View

Barriers to college are barriers to the pursuit of happiness. Research shows that college graduates live healthier, happier lives. At the same time, their productivity is increasingly vital to the U.S. economy. A college graduate today can expect almost double the lifetime earnings of someone with only a high-school diploma, and that wage differential continues to rise.

Cities with high levels of education have correspondingly high incomes, which help attract more educated newcomers, and higher-paying employers, in a dynamic, virtuous economic circle.

But despite many pockets of excellence, the U.S. higher- education system overall achieves mediocre results at a high cost. In recent years, the U.S. has fallen from first in the world in the percentage of young people who are college graduates to 16th. Roughly two-thirds of those graduates have student-loan debt; for the class of 2010, the average debt rose to a record of more than $25,000 per graduate. Some carry debt loads so burdensome that they influence not only the viability of career paths but even prospects for marriage and child- rearing......
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...orth-view.html
Old 11-07-2011, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 05TLdcc
Tuition has raised 600% in the past 30 years, that's why students leave with so much debt.
Yes, once the government got more involved issuing student loans the tuition rates shot up big time.

Many of my classmates were able to afford going to a State school by having a job and possibly a small loan that many of my friends used for different purposes than simply education. They graduated with minimal debt if any.

Now with the loans more available, tuition has shot up big time. If these loans went away, tuitions would drop accordingly. Imagine what would happen if the 30 year mortgage vanished? You would see a bigger drop in real estate than we have already experienced. It's hard hearing tales of liberal arts majors with 200k in debt but this apparently happens.
Old 03-06-2012, 02:28 PM
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Some experts have called the nation's soaring college debt load a "ticking time bomb" — a looming crisis threatening young adults, their families and the broader economy.

A new report raises even more alarms: It's likely that as many as 1 in 4 borrowers was carrying a past-due student loan balance in the third quarter, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York said Monday.

That's a much higher delinquency rate than previously thought. By a more conventional measure, the New York Fed said, 5.4 million of 37 million borrowers with student loan balances had at least one past-due student loan account — a 14.6% rate.

Many educators are concerned about the increasing financial squeeze on college students and their families and the repercussions for the nation's economy.

W. Norton Grubb, a professor at UC Berkeley's School of Education, is worried that rising debt levels are forcing some students to drop out. Only 40% to 50% of those enrolling at universities such as the California State University schools end up completing their degrees, he said.

Such figures have helped bolster a long-held belief by scholars that America's declining or stagnant college graduation rates have become an Achilles' heel in the competitive global economy.

The New York Fed report concluded that "student loan debt is not just a concern for the young. Parents and the federal government shoulder a substantial part of the post-secondary education bill."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,6387032.story
Old 03-06-2012, 04:49 PM
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Paid mine off last year...
Old 03-06-2012, 05:51 PM
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When my wife and I got married she put every dime she had into paying off her graduate school loans. Paid off $60k in 18 mos. even though the interest rate was ridiculously low I didn't want any debt when we started a family.
Old 03-17-2012, 09:59 PM
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I graduated in 05 and paid the loans off in 08. I instinctively knew they were nothing to mess around with. It was about $17k when I graduated but I eventually wrote a check for $10,000 that finished them off. Still to this day the biggest check I've ever written but it felt right.

Honestly I doubt I'd do it all over if I could be 18 again. The amount of money it cost me in both debt and foregone income are enough to make me sick. I don't use my degree and really never have. I think you're wasting your time and money unless you're Wharton/Harvard/MIT/etc material. If you're not, that's fine. Everyone should just quit deluding themselves that the degree from Podunk No-name state University is going to get you anywhere. (This discussion is one of the few things that will really get my mom pissed off. Some people just hate reality I guess.)

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Old 03-18-2012, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
....

Honestly I doubt I'd do it all over if I could be 18 again. The amount of money it cost me in both debt and foregone income are enough to make me sick. I don't use my degree and really never have. I think you're wasting your time and money unless you're Wharton/Harvard/MIT/etc material. If you're not, that's fine. Everyone should just quit deluding themselves that the degree from Podunk No-name state University is going to get you anywhere. (This discussion is one of the few things that will really get my mom pissed off. Some people just hate reality I guess.)

I'm a Podunk State U alumni and I've never used my degree to any meaningful extent.

I can assure you that the acquisition of that degree accelerated my career in a great and long-lasting way. It opened doors and has kept them open.

In this industry, I would be making today ~30 - 40% less annually without having gotten an education. Every one of my direct peers in my current position (there are, I think, 12 of them) has at least a 4-year college degree.


My advice: If you're going to be working for someone else, skip college at your own risk.

Last edited by Bearcat94; 03-18-2012 at 12:42 AM.
Old 03-18-2012, 12:45 AM
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well yeah. Trying to be a doctor or a lawyer is 150k+. But its an investment in your future so I can't really complain. You gotta pay to play.

You can call me Dr. in the next 4-5 years. lol
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
I graduated in 05 and paid the loans off in 08. I instinctively knew they were nothing to mess around with. It was about $17k when I graduated but I eventually wrote a check for $10,000 that finished them off. Still to this day the biggest check I've ever written but it felt right.

Honestly I doubt I'd do it all over if I could be 18 again. The amount of money it cost me in both debt and foregone income are enough to make me sick. I don't use my degree and really never have. I think you're wasting your time and money unless you're Wharton/Harvard/MIT/etc material. If you're not, that's fine. Everyone should just quit deluding themselves that the degree from Podunk No-name state University is going to get you anywhere. (This discussion is one of the few things that will really get my mom pissed off. Some people just hate reality I guess.)
I completely disagree. Unless you're applying to be a ditch digger, most, if not all white collar jobs require a 4-year degree or a ton of on-the-job experience, which is a catch-22. Getting the experience requres you getting in the door. Most employers will not even look at your resume if it doesn't show a degree.

Do you mind if we ask what you do?
Old 03-18-2012, 10:00 AM
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I agree that when the job market is tight a 4 year degree is needed to get past the first level filter for a white collar job. I'm glad I have mine. I went the most economical way possible, community college + state college. It was perfect for me because I'm not a great student. I barely made it through. I wouldn't have my current job without it. My degree isn't even in IT but it was good enough to get through the filter. (engineering)

With that said, there are plenty of ways to make a lot of money without a 4 year degree. A lot of successful small businesses are run by people without degrees. Heck I knew one that was run by a person that didn't even graduate high school.

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Old 03-18-2012, 11:36 AM
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My Girlfriend just graduated art school and now pays a minimum of $1400/month for student loans. I want to faint! I pay maybe $200/month.
Old 03-18-2012, 12:18 PM
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^run.
Old 03-18-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
Everyone should just quit deluding themselves that the degree from Podunk No-name state University is going to get you anywhere.
If the degree from Podunk U. gets one into a graduate or professional school, it's getting one somewhere.

Originally Posted by thisaznboi88
well yeah. Trying to be a doctor or a lawyer is 150k+.
Although the tuition and living expenses may be $150K+, individual circumstances dictate whether you're getting loans in that amount.
The amount really depends on whether one's family contributes education money or one gets grants and scholarships.
Some people can also work part-time, or for a year before grad school (esp. the non-med school ones) to pay for grad school.

There are now dentists starting out with $400K+ in student loans.
I had friends in the early-90's who started out as doctors or lawyers repaying $120K in student loans, which I thought was a horrific amount back then.

Originally Posted by JJ4Short
My Girlfriend just graduated art school and now pays a minimum of $1400/month for student loans.
I hope she gets a nice industrial-, clothing- or web-design job.
Old 03-18-2012, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Will Y.
....

There are now dentists starting out with $400K+ in student loans.
I had friends in the early-90's who started out as doctors or lawyers repaying $120K in student loans, which I thought was a horrific amount back then.
....
Herein lies the under-lying issue.

Have the actual costs to deliver that education actually gone up nearly 4X in that period of time. I'd say it's doubtful.

A 1990 dollar costs $1.74 today according to CPI. It's a long way from 74% to 400%.
Old 03-18-2012, 03:34 PM
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True story... may have posted it before... I sat in a room of 10 administrators/deans/directors all making close to or over 6 figures a year. They spent almost 2 hours in debate in deciding what color to paint a room. For the salary wasted, the room could of had a different color every week.

The main problem with Higher Ed. is mission creep. Let's build a new museum; let's expand the big screen on the football field; let's build a major with only 5 students., etc.

I have a book written about this stuff, but I won't release it until some of the characters are dead and I decide to burn my bridge. As a preview, I will say the Mafia has nothing on the Higher Ed three card monte.
Old 03-18-2012, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Will Y.
If the degree from Podunk U. gets one into a graduate or professional school, it's getting one somewhere.
As with everything, it depends. If your 4-year degree gets you into a top 10 law/engineering/B-school program, it will almost certainly pay off in the end. Name brand becomes even more important the farther up the educational ladder you go. People end up going into massive debt for graduate degrees from no-name no-care schools and frankly I think they're suckers. If you graduate Harvard law or MBA from Columbia or NYU, that's totally different. Those are still degrees that carry weight and mean something.
Old 03-18-2012, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Will Y.
If the degree from Podunk U. gets one into a graduate or professional school, it's getting one somewhere.


Although the tuition and living expenses may be $150K+, individual circumstances dictate whether you're getting loans in that amount.
The amount really depends on whether one's family contributes education money or one gets grants and scholarships.
Some people can also work part-time, or for a year before grad school (esp. the non-med school ones) to pay for grad school.
True, but also remember that only the amount of total loan for school is also capped. I think it was around 120k total including undergrad and graduate school. AFter that you need to start borrowing unsubsid loans.
Old 03-18-2012, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
True story... may have posted it before... I sat in a room of 10 administrators/deans/directors all making close to or over 6 figures a year. They spent almost 2 hours in debate in deciding what color to paint a room. For the salary wasted, the room could of had a different color every week.

The main problem with Higher Ed. is mission creep. Let's build a new museum; let's expand the big screen on the football field; let's build a major with only 5 students., etc.

I have a book written about this stuff, but I won't release it until some of the characters are dead and I decide to burn my bridge. As a preview, I will say the Mafia has nothing on the Higher Ed three card monte.
Lately it's been a complete racketeer job to fatten the wallets of banks and universities. Scum bags wearing Armani are still scum bags. Lately they've taken to praying on underprivileged minorities which is even more hilarious than praying on over privileged white kids who parents think a college degree is the answer to life's many complicated questions.
Old 03-19-2012, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
As with everything, it depends. If your 4-year degree gets you into a top 10 law/engineering/B-school program, it will almost certainly pay off in the end. Name brand becomes even more important the farther up the educational ladder you go. People end up going into massive debt for graduate degrees from no-name no-care schools and frankly I think they're suckers. If you graduate Harvard law or MBA from Columbia or NYU, that's totally different. Those are still degrees that carry weight and mean something.
Correction: Those degrees mean crap; it's the network you make with friend's daddy's that make those degrees so great. But if you are not one of them (i.e., poor and on a scholarship) they'll sniff you out in 2 seconds and you should have went to State U.
Old 03-19-2012, 12:56 PM
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^ hahaha just like the family guy episode. They beat up the poor kids
Old 03-30-2012, 05:29 AM
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Obama Relies on Debt Collectors Profiting From Student Loan Woe

The debt collector on the other end of the phone gave Oswaldo Campos an ultimatum:

Pay $219 a month toward his more than $20,000 in defaulted student loans, or Pioneer Credit Recovery, a contractor with the U.S. Education Department, would confiscate his pay. Campos, disabled from liver disease, makes about $20,000 a year.

“We’re not playing here,” Campos recalled the collector telling him in December. “You’re dealing with the federal government. You have no other options.”

Campos agreed to have the money deducted each month from his bank account, even though federal student-loan rules would let him pay less and become eligible for a plan -- approved by Congress and touted by President Barack Obama -- requiring him to lay out about $50 a month. To satisfy Pioneer, Campos borrowed from friends, cut meat from his diet and stopped buying gas to drive his 82-year-old mother to doctor’s visits for her Parkinson’s Disease.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-loan-woe.html
Old 10-07-2012, 12:19 PM
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With student loans like this one available no wonder colleges have no problem hiking up tuition every year.

Student loans, backed by government, crush many families

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-families?lite
More than a decade after Aurora Almendral first set foot on her dream college campus, she and her mother still shoulder the cost of that choice.

Almendral had been accepted to New York University in 1998, but even after adding up scholarships, grants, and the max she could take out in federal student loans, the private university — among nation's costliest — still seemed out of reach. One program filled the gap: Aurora's mother, Gemma Nemenzo, was eligible for a different federal loan meant to help parents finance their children's college costs. Despite her mother's modest income at the time — about $25,000 a year as a freelance writer, she estimates — the government quickly approved her for the loan. There was a simple credit check, but no check of income or whether Nemenzo, a single mom, could afford to repay the loans.

Nemenzo took out $17,000 in federal parent loans for the first two years her daughter attended NYU. But the burden soon became too much. With financial strains mounting, Almendral — who had promised to repay the loans herself —withdrew after her sophomore year. She later finished her degree at the far less expensive Hunter College, part of the public City University of New York, and went on to earn a Fulbright scholarship.

Today, a dozen years on, Nemenzo's debt not only remains, it's also nearly doubled with fees and interest to $33,000. Though Almendral is paying on the loans herself, her mother continues to pay the price for loans she couldn't afford: Falling into delinquency on the loans had damaged her credit, making her ineligible to borrow more when it came time for Aurora's sister to go to college.
Total Disbursements in Millions of Plus Loans

While the number of parents taking out Plus loans has nearly doubled since 2000, loan volume has grown much faster. All values are adjusted for inflation.

Source: U.S. Education Department

Source: U.S. Department of Education

Nemenzo is not alone. As the cost of college has spiraled ever upward and median family income has fallen, the loan program, called Parent Plus, has become indispensable for increasing numbers of parents desperate to make their children's college plans work. Last year the government disbursed $10.6 billion in Parent Plus loans to just under a million families. Even adjusted for inflation, that's $6.3 billion more than it disbursed back in 2000, and to nearly twice as many borrowers.

A joint examination by ProPublica and The Chronicle of Higher Education has found that Plus loans can sometimes hurt the very families they are intended to help: The loans are both remarkably easy to get and nearly impossible to get out from under for families who've overreached. When a parent applies for a Plus loan, the government checks credit history, but it doesn't assess whether the borrower has the ability to repay the loan. It doesn't check income. It doesn't check employment status. It doesn't check how much other debt — like a mortgage, or other student-loan debt — the borrower is already on the hook for.

"Right now, the government runs the program by the seat of its pants," says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of two authoritative financial-aid websites. "You do have some parents who are borrowing $100,000 or more for their children's college education who are getting in completely over their heads. Those parents are going to default, and their lives are going to be ruined, because they were allowed to borrow far more than is rational."

Much attention has been focused on students burdened with loans throughout their lives. The recent growth in the Plus program highlights another way the societal burden of paying for college has shifted to families. It means some parents are now saddled with children's college debt even as they approach retirement.

Unlike other federal student loans, Plus loans don't have a set cap on borrowing. Parents can take out as much as they need to cover the gap between other financial aid and the full cost of attendance. Colleges, eager to boost enrollment and help families find financing, often steer parents toward the loans, recommending that they take out thousands of dollars with no consideration to whether they can afford it.

When it comes to paying the money back, the government takes a hard line. Plus loans, like all student loans, are all-but-impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. If a borrower is in default, the government can seize tax refunds and garnish wages or Social Security. What is more, repayment options are actually more limited for Parent Plus borrowers compared with other federal loans. Struggling borrowers can put their loans in deferment or forbearance, but except under certain conditions Parent Plus loans aren't eligible for either of the two main income-based repayment programs to help borrowers with federal loans get more affordable monthly payments.

The U.S. Department of Education doesn't know how many parents have defaulted on the loans. It doesn't analyze or publish default rates for the Plus program with the same detail that it does for other federal education loans. It doesn't calculate, for instance, what percentage of borrowers defaulted in the first few years of their repayment period — a figure that the department analyzes for other federal student loans. (Schools with high default rates over time can be penalized and become ineligible for federal aid.) For parent loans, the department has projections only for budgetary — and not accountability — purposes: It estimates that of all Parent Plus loans originated in the 2011 fiscal year, about 9.4 percent will default over the next 20 years.

But according to an outside analysis of federal survey data, many low-income borrowers appear to be overburdening themselves.
Total Recipients of Plus Loans

The number of parents taking out Plus loans has nearly doubled since 2000.

Source: U.S. Education Department

Source: U.S. Department of Education

The analysis, by financial-aid expert Kantrowitz, uses survey data from 2007-08, the latest year for which information is available. Among Parent Plus borrowers in the bottom 10th of income, monthly payments made up 38 percent of their monthly income, on average. (By way of contrast, a federal program aimed at helping struggling graduates keeps monthly payments much lower, to a small share of discretionary income.) The survey data does not reflect the full Plus loan debt for parents who borrowed through the program for more than one child, as many do.

The data also show that one in five Parent Plus borrowers took out a loan for a student who received a federal Pell Grant — need-based aid that typically corresponds to a household income of $50,000 or less.

When Victoria Stillman's son got into Berklee College of Music, she couldn't believe how simple the loan process was. Within minutes of completing an application online, she was approved. "The fact that the Plus loan program is willing to provide me with $50,000 a year is nuts," says Stillman, an accountant. "It was the least-involved loan paperwork I ever filled out and required no attachments or proof."

She decided against taking the loan, partly because of the 7.9-percent interest rate. Although it was a fixed rate, she found it too high.

Of course, Parent Plus can be an important financial lifeline — especially for those who can't qualify for loans in the private market. An iffy credit score, high debt-to-income ratio, or lack of a credit history won't necessarily disqualify anyone for a Plus loan. Applicants are approved so long as they don't have an "adverse credit history," such as a recent foreclosure, defaulted loan, or bankruptcy discharge. (As of last fall, the government also began disqualifying prospective borrowers with unpaid debts that were sent to collection agencies or charged off in the last five years.)

The Education Department says its priority is making sure college choice isn't just for the wealthy. Families have to make tough decisions about their own finances, says Justin Hamilton, a spokesman for the department. We "want folks to have access to capital to allow them to make smart investments and improve their lives," Hamilton says. In the years after the credit crisis, department officials point out, other means of financing college — such as home-equity loans and private student loans — have become harder for families to get.

The department says it's trying to pressure colleges to contain costs, and working to inform students and families of their financing options. "Our focus is transparency," says Hamilton. "We want to make sure we're arming folks with all the information they need."

Colleges' tricky role
Colleges rarely advise families on how much is too much. After a student's own federal borrowing is maxed out, financial-aid offices often recommend large Plus loans for parents.

Using Education Department data, The Chronicle and ProPublica took a closer look at colleges where borrowers took out the highest average Plus loan amounts per year. (See a breakdown of the top schools.) NYU ranked 11th, with an average annual loan of $27,305. The university generally gives students less financial aid than many of its peers. Last year, parents of NYU students borrowed more than $116 million through the Plus program, the second-largest sum taken on for a single university, trailing only Penn State University's $160 million.

"Our first suggestion is the Plus loan," says Randall Deike, vice president for enrollment management at NYU. Yet he has misgivings about the program. "Getting a Plus loan shouldn't be so easy," he says.

"It doesn't make me feel great, truthfully," Palmer says. "But then again, what can I do? We have to pay our bills."Among the top 25 institutions with the largest average Plus loans, more than a third focus on the arts. Tenth on the list is New York Conservatory for Dramatic Arts, a for-profit acting school.

The school's sticker price for the current year adds up to nearly $53,000 for a year's worth of tuition, fees, room, board, and other expenses. Without an endowment, says David Palmer, the conservatory's chief executive, the school can't provide much financial aid — so families are often left to make difficult decisions about how borrowing is too much. Ideally, families would have saved for college, according to Palmer, but often tuition payments come in the form of Plus loans.

Last year, 150 parents borrowed for their children to attend the institution of 330 undergraduate students. Palmer knows that sometimes families borrow too much, and students have to drop out. "It makes me sick to my stomach," he says. "Because they've got half an education and a mountain of debt."

Still, he says, "I don't know that it's the institution's responsibility to say we'll take a glimpse of what your individual situation is and say maybe this isn't a good idea."

To the dismay of consumer advocates, some universities lay out offers of tens of thousands of dollars in Parent Plus loans directly in the financial-aid packages of prospective students — often in the exact amount needed to cover the gap between other aid and the full cost of attendance. That can make it look like a family won't have to pay anything at all for college, at least until they read the fine print. The offers are often included in financial-aid packages even for families who clearly can't afford it.

"It is deceptive," says Greg Johnson, chief executive of Bottom Line, a college access program in Boston and New York. His organization's counselors have seen firsthand how students and families can get confused: When Agostinha Depina first got her financial aid award letter from New York's St. John's University, her first choice, she was excited. But upon taking a closer look at the package with her counselor at Bottom Line, she realized that a $32,000 gap was being covered by a Parent Plus loan that her parents would struggle to afford.

"It made it seem like they gave me a lot of money," says Depina. In reality, "it was more loans in the financial-aid package than scholarship money." Depina, 19, opted to go to Clark University, where she had a smaller gap that she covered with a one-year outside scholarship. A spokeswoman for St. John's did not respond to requests for comment.

There's considerable debate among financial-aid officials about whether and how to include Plus loans in students' financial-aid award letters. Some universities opt not to package in a loan that families might not qualify for or be able to afford. Instead, they simply provide families with information about the program.

"We inform them about the different options they have, but we wouldn't go in and package in a credit-based loan for any family," says Frank Mullen, director of financial aid at Berklee College of Music. "To put a loan as part of someone's package without knowing whether they'd be approved? I just wouldn't feel comfortable with it."

Others say it isn't so simple. "This is one of those knives that cuts both ways," says Craig Munier, director of scholarships and financial aid at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln.

"If we leave a huge gap in the financial-aid package, families could reach the wrong conclusion that they cannot afford to send their children to this institution," says Munier, who is also chair-elect of the National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators. "The other side," he says, "is we package in a loan they can't afford, and they make a bad judgment and put themselves into debt they can't manage. You can second-guess either decision."

For parents in exceptional circumstances, colleges have some discretion to bypass the Plus application process and give a student the additional amount of federal student loans that would be available in the case of a Plus denial — up to $5,000. Those are judgment calls, says Justin Draeger, president of the aid administrators' group. Cases of a parent who is incarcerated or whose only income is public assistance are more straightforward, but the prospect of evaluating a parent's ability to pay is fraught. Deciding to tell them what they can afford "leaves the schools in sort of a moral dilemma," Draeger says.

But encouraging Plus loans for parents who would struggle to repay them lets colleges shirk their own responsibility to help families with limited means, says Simon Moore, executive director of College Visions, a college-access program based in Rhode Island. "Colleges can say, 'We want to enroll more low-income students,' but don't really need to step up and offer students good aid packages," he says. Plus loans "offer colleges an easy way to opt out."

Middle class struggles to repay
Some parents who have borrowed through Plus have found themselves working when they could be retired, and contemplating whether to pay off the debt by raiding their retirement nest eggs.

Galen Walter, a pharmacist, has put three sons through college. All told, the family racked up roughly $150,000 in loans, about $70,000, he estimates, in the Parent Plus program.
Average Plus Loan Amount

Even when inflation is taken into account, the average Plus loan has increased by roughly a third, to almost $12,000. All values are adjusted for inflation.

Walter is 65. His wife is already collecting Social Security. "I could have retired a couple years ago," he says, "but with these loans, I can't afford to stop." His sons want to help with the Plus payments, but none are in the position to do so: One son is making only $24,000. Another is unemployed. The youngest is considering grad school.

Before the downturn, Walter says, he might have been able to sell his house and use the profit to pay off the loans. But given what his house is worth now, selling it wouldn't cover the loan. With his sons in a challenging job market, he thinks he may be repaying the loans for at least a decade.

Many parents are more than willing to take on the burden. Steve Lance, 58, is determined to pay for the education of his two sons, whose time at private universities has left him saddled with $133,000 in Parent Plus loans. (He also says he's committed to paying for his sons' federal and private student loans, which bring the total to $317,000 in debt.)

"The best thing I thought I can do as a parent is support them in having their dreams come true," says Lance, a creative director who writes and speaks on advertising and marketing. "There's no price tag on that." Out of necessity, he has put some loans in deferment.

Often, students and families set their hearts on a specific college and will do whatever it takes to make it work, betting that the rewards will outweigh the financial strain.

That's what happened with J.C., who asked that her name not be used. J.C. took out about $41,000 to help her daughter, an aspiring actress, attend NYU. A high-school valedictorian, her daughter could have gone to a public university in their home state of Texas debt-free, J.C. says. But the opportunities in theater wouldn't have been the same. It had to be NYU.

"The night she got there she said: Mom, this is the air I was meant to breathe," J.C. says of her daughter.

J.C., 58, is divorced and makes about $50,000 a year. She anticipates Plus loan payments between $400 and $500 a month, which she says she can handle. "I'll never retire. I'll work forever, that's OK," she says. Still, the hope is that her daughter makes it to the big time in her acting career: "If she's really, really successful I'll retire sooner rather than later," J.C. says.

Changes to Parent Plus, uncertain results
The Education Department's recent change in how it defines adverse credit history — adding unpaid collections accounts or charged-off debt as grounds for denial — is meant to "prevent people from taking on debt they may not be able to afford while protecting taxpayer dollars," Hamilton, the department spokesman, wrote in an email message.

The change may result in significantly more Parent Plus loan denials, according to Kantrowitz — and some financial-aid officers' recent observations seem to bear that out. But new denials may actually target the wrong people. After all, the tightened underwriting still examines aspects of credit history, not ability to repay.

"It's not going to make much of a difference for people who overborrow. It's not going to prevent people from overborrowing," Kantrowitz says. Instead, the new policy may preclude borrowers who once fell behind on a debt, he says, but now pose little credit risk.

Borrowers who are denied can appeal the decision and still get the loans if they convince the Education Department that they have extenuating circumstances. Or they can reapply with somebody cosigning on the loan.

It's not yet clear how much the change to the credit check will alter the scope of the Parent Plus program. Early tallies for the 2011-12 year show a modest dip in borrowing over the previous year, but the data is incomplete and won't be fully updated for months.

For now, the Parent Plus program is part of a stopgap solution to the complex problem of college affordability. And the factors that drive parents to borrow too much won't be changing anytime soon.

Kantrowitz believes that the student-loan system is in need of much broader solutions. The current federal loan limits for undergraduates are arbitrary, he says, and not based on the type of program or a student's estimated future earnings. More grant money could also help alleviate overborrowing, especially for low-income families.

"We need a complete overhaul of the student-loan system so there's a more rational set of limits" to curb the debt problem, says Kantrowitz. The government can't keep "magically sweeping it under the parent rug."
Old 10-07-2012, 01:50 PM
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What's Driving College Costs Higher?

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Old 10-07-2012, 01:51 PM
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:52 PM
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What's Driving College Costs Higher?


[Professors] are not the beneficiaries of large increases in college spending that has gone on," he says. "In fact, the percentage of all students taught by non-tenure-track professors — adjuncts, teaching assistants — has gone up and up and up."

Meanwhile, university administrations have grown — meaning colleges are now employing more provosts, deans and assistant deans than ever before.
DAVIES: Right, you know, I mean, I went to the University of Texas in the 1970s, and I spent more on my living expenses than I did on my tuition and fees. It was a really cheap place to go. And I guess that was a fairly common experience in a lot of public universities then.

CAREY: Yeah, it was - there was for quite some time, a matter of decades, there was I think a basic bargain in place in this country, which said that if you wanted to go to college, and you were willing to go to a public university, you could work your way through college, or your parents would be able to pay out of pocket.
And in fact until - I went to college in the 1980s, and that was certainly the case for me. My parents paid I think $3,000 a year in tuition for me to go to a very good public university. And as late as the early 1990s, the majority of all undergraduates left college with no debt.

Today, about two-thirds of all undergraduates leave college owing money, and on average they owe over $25,000. I would call it an intergenerational betrayal in the sense that the good deal that government provided to one generation was not transmitted onto the next generation. Instead, in a lot of cases, I think tax cuts became more of a priority than funding higher education.

But we no longer live in a world where that bargain is available to students, I think. You can find places, but the average student has to borrow now, and that is a big change.

Heard this when it first aired a few months back and is worth the listen. Degrees are becoming increasingly overrated.

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/26/155766...e-costs-higher

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Old 10-07-2012, 08:43 PM
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0 credit debt and hovering just around 22k in tuition debt... by the time i'm done with school it will be right around 65k
Old 10-08-2012, 04:50 AM
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I owe about 21k for 4 years of school which isn't bad compared to everyone else. Thankfully, I had several small scholarships from organizations.


Quick Reply: Americans now owe more on student loans than on credit cards.



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