Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD?
12-11-2008, 03:15 PM
#841
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you have a ps3?
12-11-2008, 03:18 PM
#843
Team Owner
^^ That's good to know. I'm cross shopping it with the Pany BD35 which AVForums likes a lot.
edit: this was meant to be a response to Sarlacc's comment.
edit: this was meant to be a response to Sarlacc's comment.
12-11-2008, 03:56 PM
#844
The Third Ball
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12-11-2008, 04:22 PM
#845
I'm also trying to decide between a BR player and the PS3. I'm not a gamer but if the PQ for BlueRay and DVD-SD discs is the same for a player and for the PS3 then I wouldn't mind having the gaming ability of the PS3 for an additional $100 or so over a dedicated BR player.
Dougler, I read somewhere a while back that the PS3 only outputs 1080p. If that's true then your TV wouldn't need to do the upconvert. If that's not the case then ignore this comment.
Dougler, I read somewhere a while back that the PS3 only outputs 1080p. If that's true then your TV wouldn't need to do the upconvert. If that's not the case then ignore this comment.
12-11-2008, 06:10 PM
#847
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yes it will, i used to convert xvid files into DVDs before the ps3 played xvid files.
12-15-2008, 12:03 PM
#848
Team Owner
I decided on the Panasonic. Found a deal at Costco for $199 (after instant rebate) that I couldn't pass up. I haven't hooked it up yet though, Its sitting in the box under the Christmas tree.
12-15-2008, 05:22 PM
#851
The sizzle in the Steak
Per the conversation in the PS3 sales thread in Console/Gaming....
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365
So is Blu-ray dying/dead?
Blu-ray is dead - heckuva job, Sony!
Blu-ray is in a death spiral. 12 months from now Blu-ray will be a videophile niche, not a mass market product.
With only a 4% share of US movie disc sales and HD download capability arriving, the Blu-ray disc Association (BDA) is still smoking dope. Even $150 Blu-ray players won’t save it.
16 months ago I called the HD war for Blu-ray. My bad. Who dreamed they could both lose?
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
Delusional Sony exec Rick Clancy needs to put the crack pipe down and really look at the market dynamics.
In a nutshell: consumers drive the market and they don’t care about Blu-ray’s theoretical advantages. Especially during a world-wide recession.
Remember Betamax? SACD? Minidisk? Laser Disk? DVD-Audio? There are more losers than winners in consumer storage formats.
It’s all about volume. 8 months after Toshiba threw in the towel, Blu-ray still doesn’t have it.
The Blu-ray Disc Association doesn’t get it
$150 Blu-ray disc players are a good start, but it won’t take Blu-ray over the finish line. The BDA is stuck in the past with a flawed five-year-old strategy.
The original game plan
Two things killed the original strategy. First the fight with HD DVD stalled the industry for two years. Initial enthusiasm for high definition video on disk was squandered.
Second, the advent of low cost up-sampling DVD players dramatically cut the video quality advantage of Blu-ray DVDs. Suddenly, for $100, your average consumer can put good video on their HDTV using standard DVDs. When Blu-ray got started no one dreamed this would happen.
Piggies at the trough
The Blu-ray Disc Association hoped for a massive cash bonanza as millions of consumers discovered that standard DVDs looked awful on HDTV. To cash in they loaded Blu-ray licenses with costly fees. Blu-ray doesn’t just suck for consumers: small producers can’t afford it either.
According to Digital Content Producer Blu-ray doesn’t cut it for business:
Recordable discs don’t play reliably across the range of Blu-ray players - so you can’t do low-volume runs yourself.
Service bureau reproduction runs $20 per single layer disc in quantities of 300 or less.
Hollywood style printed/replicated Blu-ray discs are considerably cheaper once you reach the thousand unit quantity: just $3.50 per disc.
High-quality authoring programs like Sony Blu-print or Sonic Solutions Scenarist cost $40,000.
The Advanced Access Content System - the already hacked DRM - has a one-time fee of $3000 plus a per project cost of almost $1600 plus $.04 per disk. And who defines “project?”
Then the Blu-ray disc Association charges another $3000 annually to use their very exclusive - on 4% of all video disks! - logo.
That’s why you don’t see quirky indie flicks on Blu-ray. Small producers can’t afford it - even though they shoot in HDV and HD.
The Storage Bits take
Don’t expect Steve Jobs to budge from his “bag of hurt” understatement. Or Final Cut Studio support for Blu-ray. I suspect that Jobs is using his Hollywood clout from his board seat on Disney and his control of iTunes to try to talk sense to the BDA.
But the BDA won’t budge. They, like so much of Hollywood, are stuck in the past.
A forward looking strategy would include:
Recognition that consumers don’t need Blu-ray. It is a nice-to-have and must be priced accordingly.
Accept the money spent on Blu-ray is gone and will never earn back the investment. Then you can begin thinking clearly about how to maximize Blu-ray penetration.
The average consumer will probably pay $50 more for a Blu-ray player that is competitive with the average up-sampling DVD player. Most of the current Blu-ray players are junk: slow, feature-poor and way over-priced.
Disk price margins can’t be higher than DVDs and probably should be less. The question the studios need to ask is: “do we want to be selling disks in 5 years?” No? Then keep it up. Turn distribution over to your very good friends at Comcast, Apple and Time Warner. You’ll be like Procter & Gamble paying Safeway to stock your products.
Fire all the market research firms telling you how great it is going to be. They are playing you. Your #1 goal: market share. High volume is your only chance to earn your way out of this mess and keep some control of your distribution.
Time is short. Timid incrementalism will kill you.
Like Agent Smith delivering the bad news to a complacent cop: “No, Lieutenant, your men are already dead.”
Blu-ray is in a death spiral. 12 months from now Blu-ray will be a videophile niche, not a mass market product.
With only a 4% share of US movie disc sales and HD download capability arriving, the Blu-ray disc Association (BDA) is still smoking dope. Even $150 Blu-ray players won’t save it.
16 months ago I called the HD war for Blu-ray. My bad. Who dreamed they could both lose?
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
Delusional Sony exec Rick Clancy needs to put the crack pipe down and really look at the market dynamics.
In a nutshell: consumers drive the market and they don’t care about Blu-ray’s theoretical advantages. Especially during a world-wide recession.
Remember Betamax? SACD? Minidisk? Laser Disk? DVD-Audio? There are more losers than winners in consumer storage formats.
It’s all about volume. 8 months after Toshiba threw in the towel, Blu-ray still doesn’t have it.
The Blu-ray Disc Association doesn’t get it
$150 Blu-ray disc players are a good start, but it won’t take Blu-ray over the finish line. The BDA is stuck in the past with a flawed five-year-old strategy.
The original game plan
Two things killed the original strategy. First the fight with HD DVD stalled the industry for two years. Initial enthusiasm for high definition video on disk was squandered.
Second, the advent of low cost up-sampling DVD players dramatically cut the video quality advantage of Blu-ray DVDs. Suddenly, for $100, your average consumer can put good video on their HDTV using standard DVDs. When Blu-ray got started no one dreamed this would happen.
Piggies at the trough
The Blu-ray Disc Association hoped for a massive cash bonanza as millions of consumers discovered that standard DVDs looked awful on HDTV. To cash in they loaded Blu-ray licenses with costly fees. Blu-ray doesn’t just suck for consumers: small producers can’t afford it either.
According to Digital Content Producer Blu-ray doesn’t cut it for business:
Recordable discs don’t play reliably across the range of Blu-ray players - so you can’t do low-volume runs yourself.
Service bureau reproduction runs $20 per single layer disc in quantities of 300 or less.
Hollywood style printed/replicated Blu-ray discs are considerably cheaper once you reach the thousand unit quantity: just $3.50 per disc.
High-quality authoring programs like Sony Blu-print or Sonic Solutions Scenarist cost $40,000.
The Advanced Access Content System - the already hacked DRM - has a one-time fee of $3000 plus a per project cost of almost $1600 plus $.04 per disk. And who defines “project?”
Then the Blu-ray disc Association charges another $3000 annually to use their very exclusive - on 4% of all video disks! - logo.
That’s why you don’t see quirky indie flicks on Blu-ray. Small producers can’t afford it - even though they shoot in HDV and HD.
The Storage Bits take
Don’t expect Steve Jobs to budge from his “bag of hurt” understatement. Or Final Cut Studio support for Blu-ray. I suspect that Jobs is using his Hollywood clout from his board seat on Disney and his control of iTunes to try to talk sense to the BDA.
But the BDA won’t budge. They, like so much of Hollywood, are stuck in the past.
A forward looking strategy would include:
Recognition that consumers don’t need Blu-ray. It is a nice-to-have and must be priced accordingly.
Accept the money spent on Blu-ray is gone and will never earn back the investment. Then you can begin thinking clearly about how to maximize Blu-ray penetration.
The average consumer will probably pay $50 more for a Blu-ray player that is competitive with the average up-sampling DVD player. Most of the current Blu-ray players are junk: slow, feature-poor and way over-priced.
Disk price margins can’t be higher than DVDs and probably should be less. The question the studios need to ask is: “do we want to be selling disks in 5 years?” No? Then keep it up. Turn distribution over to your very good friends at Comcast, Apple and Time Warner. You’ll be like Procter & Gamble paying Safeway to stock your products.
Fire all the market research firms telling you how great it is going to be. They are playing you. Your #1 goal: market share. High volume is your only chance to earn your way out of this mess and keep some control of your distribution.
Time is short. Timid incrementalism will kill you.
Like Agent Smith delivering the bad news to a complacent cop: “No, Lieutenant, your men are already dead.”
So is Blu-ray dying/dead?
12-15-2008, 05:38 PM
#852
I still haven't converted to BR, I bought a HDDVD player last year after Christmas, hot deal from amazon.com. They screwed up and I didn't get it until after the 1st of Jan, by then HDDVD had the writing on the wall, I sent it back, along with 8 free movies.
I'd like to buy a BR but I'd only do it with a PS3 and there's not a game that I just HAVE TO HAVE to make me buy it. So I put up with watching movies in HD on HBO, Starz, Cmax and such, hell my DTV is $145 per month.
I'd like to buy a BR but I'd only do it with a PS3 and there's not a game that I just HAVE TO HAVE to make me buy it. So I put up with watching movies in HD on HBO, Starz, Cmax and such, hell my DTV is $145 per month.
12-15-2008, 05:43 PM
#853
The sizzle in the Steak
I still haven't converted to BR, I bought a HDDVD player last year after Christmas, hot deal from amazon.com. They screwed up and I didn't get it until after the 1st of Jan, by then HDDVD had the writing on the wall, I sent it back, along with 8 free movies.
I'd like to buy a BR but I'd only do it with a PS3 and there's not a game that I just HAVE TO HAVE to make me buy it. So I put up with watching movies in HD on HBO, Starz, Cmax and such, hell my DTV is $145 per month.
I'd like to buy a BR but I'd only do it with a PS3 and there's not a game that I just HAVE TO HAVE to make me buy it. So I put up with watching movies in HD on HBO, Starz, Cmax and such, hell my DTV is $145 per month.
....or at least viewed the Hulk trailer in 1080p?
FYI if your 1080p set is not 1080/24...you are SOL with 1080p from DTV.
12-15-2008, 06:08 PM
#854
The Third Ball
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Ah...it begins.
While I did champion HD-dvd and thought BR would be the loser, I always said both were an intermediary format. And Digital downloads were the next real thing. Yet I remember meeting resistance from people saying the internet wasnt ready yet for that kind of bandwidth.
Yet here I am watching HD content streamed over Xbox Live via Netflix...people are renting HD movies over itunes through apple TV...etc etc etc
BR not lasting as long as DVD is nothing new, nor was ever expected to.
I love how the author is acting like he delivering something new and impressive no one else already knew for for the last year.
While I did champion HD-dvd and thought BR would be the loser, I always said both were an intermediary format. And Digital downloads were the next real thing. Yet I remember meeting resistance from people saying the internet wasnt ready yet for that kind of bandwidth.
Yet here I am watching HD content streamed over Xbox Live via Netflix...people are renting HD movies over itunes through apple TV...etc etc etc
BR not lasting as long as DVD is nothing new, nor was ever expected to.
I love how the author is acting like he delivering something new and impressive no one else already knew for for the last year.
12-15-2008, 06:09 PM
#855
No, my set is only 1080i, happy just watching that for now. There just hasn't been that WOW factor to get me to BR. like it was for me to go from VCR to DVD. I get the HD programming via DTV, though it's not 1080p24 it's good for right now, better than the SD crap. Plus the upconvert with my xbox 360 does a good job.
I know I'll want to get the much better 1080p/24, but I'll be damn if I pay DTV for a different box to get it. I'll be switching to FiOS soon.
I know I'll want to get the much better 1080p/24, but I'll be damn if I pay DTV for a different box to get it. I'll be switching to FiOS soon.
12-15-2008, 06:13 PM
#856
The sizzle in the Steak
No, my set is only 1080i, happy just watching that for now. There just hasn't been that WOW factor to get me to BR. like it was for me to go from VCR to DVD. I get the HD programming via DTV, though it's not 1080p24 it's good for right now, better than the SD crap. Plus the upconvert with my xbox 360 does a good job.
I know I'll want to get the much better 1080p/24, but I'll be damn if I pay DTV for a different box to get it. I'll be switching to FiOS soon.
I know I'll want to get the much better 1080p/24, but I'll be damn if I pay DTV for a different box to get it. I'll be switching to FiOS soon.
It works with the current HD DVR....you need it connected to your home network...that is all.
12-15-2008, 06:14 PM
#857
The sizzle in the Steak
Ah...it begins.
While I did champion HD-dvd and thought BR would be the loser, I always said both were an intermediary format. And Digital downloads were the next real thing. Yet I remember meeting resistance from people saying the internet wasnt ready yet for that kind of bandwidth.
Yet here I am watching HD content streamed over Xbox Live via Netflix...people are renting HD movies over itunes through apple TV...etc etc etc
BR not lasting as long as DVD is nothing new, nor was ever expected to.
I love how the author is acting like he delivering something new and impressive no one else already knew for for the last year.
While I did champion HD-dvd and thought BR would be the loser, I always said both were an intermediary format. And Digital downloads were the next real thing. Yet I remember meeting resistance from people saying the internet wasnt ready yet for that kind of bandwidth.
Yet here I am watching HD content streamed over Xbox Live via Netflix...people are renting HD movies over itunes through apple TV...etc etc etc
BR not lasting as long as DVD is nothing new, nor was ever expected to.
I love how the author is acting like he delivering something new and impressive no one else already knew for for the last year.
I've been saying this for a long time as well.
<---Getting 1080p content from DTV.
12-15-2008, 06:22 PM
#858
I won't pay them the extra for that box, I've been a customer for six years. I told them no way I would sign up for another two years AND pay $200 for a new box.
12-15-2008, 06:27 PM
#859
The sizzle in the Steak
You don't have an HD DVR? What box do you have?For the record I've received all my boxes for free. I won't pay for them.
It's all in how you negotiate with DTV.
btw...FIOS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have Uverse in my neighborhood....
That's why I'm with DTV
12-15-2008, 06:38 PM
#860
I have the H21, which is a piece of shit, there's a DTV TiVo box SD, in the living room. I don't use that much kid does. Then I have a H20 in the bedroom, no HD DVR, I'm not playing DTV bullshit games. Last year they did an upgrade (software) and it killed my HDMI output for about six months until they did another firmware. I did get them to upgrade my dish free so I can the Mpeg4 channels.
I'll be going to FiOS soon, but for while they didn't have HD boxes to install at first. They wanted to do SD and promise to change out to HD after about 60 days. I need to call them back and see where that stands.
Plus working from home, I've been scared to switch because phone and HS is needed for work.
I'll be going to FiOS soon, but for while they didn't have HD boxes to install at first. They wanted to do SD and promise to change out to HD after about 60 days. I need to call them back and see where that stands.
Plus working from home, I've been scared to switch because phone and HS is needed for work.
12-15-2008, 06:54 PM
#861
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ No HD from FIOS?!?!?!
12-15-2008, 07:19 PM
#862
Moderator Alumnus
Per the conversation in the PS3 sales thread in Console/Gaming....
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365
So is Blu-ray dying/dead?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365
So is Blu-ray dying/dead?
The Dark Knight media sales were Blu-ray. That's a long way off from death.
As a movie lover, I frequently loan people movies that I think they'd know/enjoy. The ability to just put it in their hands and say, 'watch this'
is great. It's very different than telling people verbally that you recommend
a movie.
I suppose, however, with the usual day to day movie watching, that waiting
a day or two for a dvd to arrive in the mail is no worse than waiting a day or two for the movie to download to disk.
As long as I don't lose all the bonus features and subtitles and etc.
(which is entirely doable, really)
- Frank
12-15-2008, 07:22 PM
#863
12-15-2008, 09:25 PM
#864
The sizzle in the Steak
Depending on what report you read, somewhere between 20 to 33% of
The Dark Knight media sales were Blu-ray. That's a long way off from death.
As a movie lover, I frequently loan people movies that I think they'd know/enjoy. The ability to just put it in their hands and say, 'watch this'
is great. It's very different than telling people verbally that you recommend
a movie.
I suppose, however, with the usual day to day movie watching, that waiting
a day or two for a dvd to arrive in the mail is no worse than waiting a day or two for the movie to download to disk.
As long as I don't lose all the bonus features and subtitles and etc.
(which is entirely doable, really)
- Frank
The Dark Knight media sales were Blu-ray. That's a long way off from death.
As a movie lover, I frequently loan people movies that I think they'd know/enjoy. The ability to just put it in their hands and say, 'watch this'
is great. It's very different than telling people verbally that you recommend
a movie.
I suppose, however, with the usual day to day movie watching, that waiting
a day or two for a dvd to arrive in the mail is no worse than waiting a day or two for the movie to download to disk.
As long as I don't lose all the bonus features and subtitles and etc.
(which is entirely doable, really)
- Frank
For the week ending 7th December 2008, here are the stats:
Percentage of Top 20 titles by disc volume:
Blu-ray vs DVD: 11% vs 89%
All sales by $ volume (Percentage of Total Sales):
Blu-ray sales down 14.58% compared to last week, total spending: $23.64 million (8.95%)
DVD sales down 37.73% compared to last week, total spending: $240.59 million (91.05%)
Percentage of Top 20 titles by disc volume:
Blu-ray vs DVD: 11% vs 89%
All sales by $ volume (Percentage of Total Sales):
Blu-ray sales down 14.58% compared to last week, total spending: $23.64 million (8.95%)
DVD sales down 37.73% compared to last week, total spending: $240.59 million (91.05%)
It will become passe. If you find a good film...tell your friend to get it on demand. That will\is the future...and it's already happening.
12-16-2008, 12:19 AM
#865
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i dont know if it is the same, but do they keep the same catalog of movies the entire time?
cause back when i had on demand the movie line up would change all the time so if i wanted to rewatch a movie i had watched say a month ago, i couldnt cause it wasnt offered anymore.
cause back when i had on demand the movie line up would change all the time so if i wanted to rewatch a movie i had watched say a month ago, i couldnt cause it wasnt offered anymore.
12-16-2008, 09:05 AM
#866
Team Owner
I want the highest possible quality I can get so I get BD's. Plus I want to keep them. If my net connection is down/router breaks/etc then I'm out of gas to watch my movies.
12-16-2008, 12:08 PM
#868
Team Owner
and 
12-16-2008, 03:23 PM
#870
Make MyTL Great Again
I still have my HD DVD player and still don't have plans of buying a blu-ray player in the near future at all. We will see how well they do this xmas season, but to me it doesn't look like they are getting the overwheling sales they were hoping they would get. I'm sure the economy is playing a role in it. Another one is how much the Toshiba XDE upscaler is being highly reviewed and recommended.
12-16-2008, 03:28 PM
#871
The sizzle in the Steak
12-16-2008, 03:40 PM
#873
Big Block go VROOOM!
Set top box or computer, Internet delivery is going to have to be another one of those things that wins over consumers on the strengths of marketing efforts and not the actual substance of the delivered product. HD image quality is dependent on resolution and bitrate. In this regard I don't believe any of the current Internet services can hold a candle to the potential offered by a Blu-Ray disc.
12-16-2008, 03:46 PM
#875
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ 
...but clearly the public does not care about quality /resolution / bitrate....et al. That's why the blu-ray marketing peeps can't get the ball rolling...even with zero competition.
Most people think that 1080i upconvert DVD is "HD Enough" for them. No need to buy a 300-400 player and re-purchase the DVD collection with discs that cost more than the equivalent DVD.
The public will do the same with on-demand broadband 1080p content as well.
Sure, it may not be as nice as blu-ray...but in the end the consumer will be happy that it is 1080p, cost less, and easier to acquire from either their home or office...with just a click.
...but clearly the public does not care about quality /resolution / bitrate....et al. That's why the blu-ray marketing peeps can't get the ball rolling...even with zero competition. Most people think that 1080i upconvert DVD is "HD Enough" for them. No need to buy a 300-400 player and re-purchase the DVD collection with discs that cost more than the equivalent DVD.
The public will do the same with on-demand broadband 1080p content as well.
Sure, it may not be as nice as blu-ray...but in the end the consumer will be happy that it is 1080p, cost less, and easier to acquire from either their home or office...with just a click.
12-17-2008, 10:15 AM
#877
The sizzle in the Steak
See this post :wink:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=851
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=851
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