The Energy Efficiency / Renewable Energy Thread

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Old 05-08-2018, 07:45 AM
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No, you wouldn’t. Thanks to the pump affinity law, the properly sized motor becomes a lot more efficient when run at lower speeds for longer periods of time. You save more than 50% power when you drop the flow rate by 50%. This is why it’s better, and what you still fail to understand. You’re wrong.
Old 05-08-2018, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
No, you wouldn’t. Thanks to the pump affinity law, the properly sized motor becomes a lot more efficient when run at lower speeds for longer periods of time. You save more than 50% power when you drop the flow rate by 50%. This is why it’s better, and what you still fail to understand. You’re wrong.
if it's properly sized, you wouldn't run it at lower speeds
Old 05-08-2018, 07:55 AM
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this is from your report:
The largest energy savings of installing a PMM pump comes from the ability to program and reduce the flow rate to match the required pumping task.
it's the same as I've been saying... the savings come from being able to "dial it in," as opposed to having the correctly sized motor/pump combination from the outset.

You're being very adversarial here, and I don't understand why. I don't deny that your friend will see/sees savings. I think it's cool. I was just trying to make this point from the outset.
Old 05-08-2018, 08:04 AM
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I don't quite understand what the report is saying with the "pump affinity law"

If they're saying I can oversize a pump and then back it down and it will be more efficient than a pump sized for the same duty, that would be news to me. Not saying it's not possible, it's just beyond my knowledge and understanding. I'm a PM, not an engineer. I have never heard such a thing suggested by an engineer, so I don't even know that they'd have the answer either. The pump is always selected for the max, but not beyond and then backed off as a means of saving energy.
Old 05-08-2018, 08:53 AM
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Dude, as shown in the video I posted in the first post of this thread the concept you're still failing to understand is that if you run it at half speed the flow rate but twice the time, the amount of water filtered is still the same but powered required to run it at half speed is a lot less than 50%. Watch the video again. Look closely at this chart






To run the motor at 2400RPM requires 593 Watts. But if you ran that same motor at 1200RPM it uses 74 Watts. The flow rate dropped by 50% but the power required dropped by 87% not 50%. This is how you save money, I don't know how many more ways this can be explained to you. You size the motor for what you need to vacuum, you don't oversize it. If you need 2HP to vacuum then that's what you get, but you don't run it at max speed for 4 hours a day, you run it at 25% speed for 16 hours a day and in the end the same amount of water is filtered but thanks the pump affinity law you save a lot of energy. If you still don't understand the concept that the power savings isn't linear that you should lose your AC license, I would never hire you.


Old 05-08-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
Dude, as shown in the video I posted in the first post of this thread the concept you're still failing to understand is that if you run it at half speed the flow rate but twice the time, the amount of water filtered is still the same but powered required to run it at half speed is a lot less than 50%. Watch the video again. Look closely at this chart
I'm not going to explain again the same things as to why that guy's video was so flawed. I don't know how to explain it another way so that you'll understand.
I'm going to give up on you here.... other than to say that pumps pump on their curve. They have to.
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everything in that report you posted is exactly what I had written to you a couple months ago
Old 05-08-2018, 09:53 AM
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You're still failing to grasp that a single speed pump needs more power when it's vacuuming so a single speed can't be "properly sized" to efficiently run at an energy sipping low flow rate speed and still be strong enough to vacuum. The only way to have both is with a variable speed motor that's high speed when vacuuming and low speed when filtering, if you go single speed than you have to get a motor stong enough to vacuum, then it's overkill for everything else.
Old 05-08-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
You're still failing to grasp that a single speed pump needs more power when it's vacuuming so a single speed can't be "properly sized" to efficiently run at an energy sipping low flow rate speed and still be strong enough to vacuum. The only way to have both is with a variable speed motor that's high speed when vacuuming and low speed when filtering, if you go single speed than you have to get a motor stong enough to vacuum, then it's overkill for everything else.
I get that... that's a separate thing that just came up this time around. I will concede that, although there is no mention of that in the report you posted, so I'm not sure of the necessity of it.

The only thing I was trying to get across to you is that work is work.... if you set up your pump to run with the variable speed at something, I can find a pump/motor combination to run the same way that is not variable speed, and have the same results or very close.

It's a shame you have to feel like I am challenging you. I can geek out over this stuff in the same way you can. My problem was never in what your friend was doing, it's just the rationale behind it. (the video)
Old 05-08-2018, 10:48 AM
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That's been the obvious point since the first post
Old 05-08-2018, 10:54 AM
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That's why you get a variable speed motor so you can run it high speed when vacuuming and low speed the rest of the time. It makes no sense to run a variable speed motor at a single speed, that was never the point.
Old 05-09-2018, 01:04 PM
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Another big improvement you can make in your homes energy efficiency: replace your old refrigerator

This article is from 2014 but checkout how much more efficient fridges are now thanks to government regulations like Energy Star.

Your Next Fridge Will Be More Efficient. Here's Why.


You've probably heard of Energy Star—the program launched by the U.S. government to incentivize efficiency in product development. Created by the Environmental Protection Agency in 1992, the voluntary program awards attention-grabbing blue "badges" to products that meet certain efficiency standards.

The Energy Star badge goes one step beyond the federal minimum efficiency standards established by the Department of Energy in 1975. And while it's considered voluntary, the marketing advantage Energy Star provides ensures that the vast majority of products meet the program's requirements.

Along with the federal minimum standards, Energy Star has helped improve efficiency performance across more than 60 product categories. In 1993, the year after the program launched, American homes consumed an average of 103.6 million BTUs of energy, according to data from the Energy Information Administration. By 2009, that figure had dropped to 89.6 million BTUs—a 14 percent decrease in energy consumption per household.

Of course, there are more housing units today than there were in 1993—about 17 million more. So that surge in housing forced a 2 percent net increase in residential energy consumption. However, if household energy consumption remained at its 1993 levels, there would have been an 18 percent increase in total residential energy usage.


Clearly, these numbers support the existence of both federal efficiency standards and the Energy Star program. The marketing advantage for manufacturers is also clear. Among fridges, roughly 80 percent are now Energy Star qualified.


However, there has always been some back-and-forth between the industry, the government, and private efficiency advocates over the proper specifications for these programs.

Starting this week, residential refrigerators will have to meet a new set of efficiency requirements for both Energy Star and the Department of Energy's federal minimums—the latter of which is obligatory. This has sent manufacturers scrambling to bring more efficient fridges to market, causing confusion among producers and consumers alike.

Why refrigerators?

Fridges are a unique category: They run 24 hours a day, and are generally considered an indispensable part of the modern home. They're also one of the most energy-intensive products in the home. And over the past few decades, their efficiency has skyrocketed.




So why is the EPA upgrading fridge standards now? Why not focus on more wasteful products like ovens and dryers? Aren't fridges efficient enough? Are these new rules… excessive?

It's certainly true that modern refrigerators are staggeringly more efficient than models produced in the 1970's and 80's—in some cases by up to 75 percent. The Energy Star requirements that go into effect this week stipulate that a 28-cubic-foot fridge may not exceed 403.82 kWh per year. If you compare that with the average annual energy consumption of a fridge in 1980—roughly 1,250 kWh/year—you can see how great the improvement has been.

But these statistics are a bit misleading, if only because of how darn wasteful older machines were. Even with the new Energy Star requirements, the refrigerator itself is one of the most energy-intensive products in the home, perhaps second only to the air conditioner.

Fridges make up roughly 5 percent of an average U.S. home's total energy consumption, according to EIA data, and even a new Energy Star–labeled fridge—which improves 10 percent on previous generations—consumes more energy per year than the average citizen of Ghana.

"Ten percent may not seem like a big number," says Ann Bailey, product labeling branch chief for Energy Star. "But when you look at what that means across all of the sales, when all refrigerators have met those requirements, the difference amounts to the equivalent of taking one million cars off the road—and $890 million in energy savings."

Earl F. Jones, senior counsel for GE Appliance and Lighting, agrees. While acknowledging that Energy Star is hardly a "voluntary" program due to the economic realities of the market, Jones points out that the average increase in efficiency from the 2001 standards to 2014 is 30 percent. And that's just the DOE-regulated minimum requirements.

"Thirty percent savings in a refrigerator is very significant," he says. "Plus, remember this is a product that's on 24/7. The potential for savings is more significant than [...] products where you’re also getting new standards next year, but your use of them is intermittent."

Old 05-09-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by brian2
I'm not going to explain again the same things as to why that guy's video was so flawed. I don't know how to explain it another way so that you'll understand.
I'm going to give up on you here.... other than to say that pumps pump on their curve. They have to.
Reading the Performance Curves of Industrial Pumps March Pump March Manufacturing Inc.
everything in that report you posted is exactly what I had written to you a couple months ago
No they don't. Otherwise I wouldn't have sent a pump back to Michigan for testing, as the manufacturer didn't believe there was anything wrong. Simply put, I have three pumps that weren't hitting their curve. Manufacturer confirmed it and is now finding a solution to the problem (adding 3 more stages in).
Old 05-09-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TacoBello


No they don't. Otherwise I wouldn't have sent a pump back to Michigan for testing, as the manufacturer didn't believe there was anything wrong. Simply put, I have three pumps that weren't hitting their curve. Manufacturer confirmed it and is now finding a solution to the problem (adding 3 more stages in).
I recently had a fan that wasn't performing on it's curve and has forced the mfr into testing, but this is a special situation where the engineering data does not meet the actual performance.
It also cost the mfr about $5000 in field testing backcharges until they finally believed me. They then spent another 30k or so to build a mockup in their facility for testing. That is how much they rely on their curves.

anyway, your pump was pumping on it's curve.... just not the curve you anticipated

Last edited by brian2; 05-09-2018 at 01:54 PM.
Old 05-10-2018, 08:21 PM
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Please rename this to the Official pool and pump physics thread
Old 06-04-2018, 09:27 PM
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:55 PM
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Berkeley lab turns out comprehensive estimate of efficiency cost — and it's cheap


Dive Brief:

  • The figure is highly variable, depending on geography and demographics, but on average it costs $0.025 to save a kilowatt-hour of electricity, according to research from Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. The analysis looked at efficiency programs funded by customers of investor-owned utilities.
  • Costs were lower in the Midwest, where utilities have less experience with efficiency programs and more low-hanging fruit; in the Northeast, the cost reached $0.033/kWh, on average, because the region has several states with more developed efficiency programs.
  • As utilities have focused on reducing emissions and cleaning up their energy mix, energy efficiency has become a key tool in achieving clean energy goals. Some 30 states and the District of Columbia have adopted efficiency policies, including two dozen that adopted an energy efficiency resource standard, the U.S. Energy Information Administration said last year.

Dive Insight:

The concept of "low-hanging fruit" is fairly well-known in energy efficiency: Some improvements, primarily lighting, are easy to pull off, inexpensive, and can show big savings. But as more and more customers replace traditional bulbs, utilities must work harder to find savings.

So as more efficiency is captured, the cost of further savings rises.

The average U.S. retail price of electricity is about $0.104/kWh. LBNL's research examined the cost performance of utility energy efficiency programs, utilizing data from almost 8,800 programs across 41 states between 2009 and 2015. It was the "most comprehensive effort yet to quantify the cost of saving electricity through efficiency programs," researchers said. They concluded the average cost was $0.025/kWh.

But the cost of saving electricity "varied significantly" among regions of the country. In the Midwest, the cost dipped to $0.015/kWh; in the Northeast, it rose to $0.033/kWh. The South and West were in line with the national average.

In all, 16 states showed efficiency costs of $0.02/kWh or less.

This tended to be true of states that were "new to energy efficiency, ... or had program design restrictions that limited savings acquisition (e.g., caps on customer payback periods)," the study said.

On the flip side, five states had costs above $0.04/kWh: Florida and four Northeast states.

The study noted the Northeast states have "relatively high electricity prices, extensive histories in pursuing energy savings and strong policy commitments (e.g., statutory mandates to acquire all cost-effective energy efficiency or meet specified energy savings targets). Thus, they tend to have greater market saturation for efficiency measures and have mined more of the lowest cost savings opportunities."Source: Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

The most expensive customer segment, for a variety of reasons, was low-income households, where the costs reached $0.105/kWh.

In low-income focused efficiency programs, researchers pointed out that program administrators typically pay the full cost of measures, and see higher costs due to poor home and safety conditions.

Commercial and industrial programs saw average costs of $0.025/kWh, with three types of programs making up almost three-quarters of of the sector's savings: rebates for custom retrofits, prescriptive measures and new construction. According to LBNL, those programs show average costs from $0.019/kWh to $0.026/kWh.
Old 07-10-2018, 07:59 PM
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Reminder again to check with your Electric company and see what rebates they offer, you already pay for the program in your electric bill so you might as well use it. For example Duke Energy offers this for Florida customers

Old 07-10-2018, 08:05 PM
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My electric company gave me a $200 coupon to add more insulation to my house, reimbursed my costs to purchase window tint, gave me 8 free CFLs, and got my air ducts resealed for $50.
Old 07-11-2018, 06:09 AM
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Take those CFLs to your local hazmat recycling center.
Old 07-11-2018, 01:22 PM
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Yeah that was 2013, hopefully they switched to giving out LEDs by now
Old 07-11-2018, 01:23 PM
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I think Home Depot recycle's them
Old 01-26-2019, 07:41 PM
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https://www.geekwire.com/2019/report...ar-power-push/

Report: Bill Gates promises to add his own billions if Congress helps with his nuclear power push

Old 04-27-2020, 06:17 PM
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Here is what I have been doing to make my house more energy efficient.

First, I have a 2,025 sq ft single story house.

1. As some of you know, I added conditioned living space to our lanai last August 2019. This meant a lanai conversion to conditioned space as part of the house. When we converted the lanai, we added two AC supply vents, but no return vent. My original thought process by not adding the return vent last year was that we could just open the interior lanai door and that would be the return vent. However, my wife likes to go out there and read and watch TV, and with the interior lanai door closed, and even with the ac supply vents open and running, it gets hot out there because there is no return to the AC AHU. So yesterday, I added a 10" by 8" AC return vent using 25' insulated AC ducting to the main return hub up in the attic.

Fun fact: installing those in 114 degree heat is no fun.

I also added batt insulation above the lanai to insulate it using R38 batts, and later in May I plan to blow more blown-in insulation above that to bring it up to R70 across the house.

2. I have been air sealing the attic for the past month using cans of Great Stuff foam. I have bought and used over 110 bottles of 16ounces of Great Stuff. I have air sealed around the interior and exterior walls of my house, which is a big pain in the ass. This is because the rooms in my house, except for the master bedroom, master bath, and the kitchen all do not have ceilings that bend down towards the ground. The rest of the house does. I have to squeeze way down in between the rafters to air seal the exterior top plates of the house. The interior walls were less of a pain, but still a job because I had to move the existing blown in insulation out of the way. I air sealed all the electrical lines, can lights, AC vents and returns, vent fans in the bathroom, and stepped ceilings. Air sealing the house allows the AC to work less time because the cool, conditioned air is not being sucked into the hot attic. Based on a blower door test a couple of years ago and some other calculations, I was losing 10% CFM through the AC vents and small leaks going to the attic. Those have now stopped.

3. I have also sealed the 16 can lights I have in my house using a box foam kit and radiant barrier tape. I sealed these up with Great Stuff as well.

4. I just bought Attic Foil 1,000 sq ft radiant barrier for the house. Based on my roof slope, I needed 2,025 sq ft X 1.4 = 2,835 sq ft of radiant barrier film to do my entire attic. The radiant barrier should be installed about 3-6inches above the soffetts to about 2-3 inches below the ridge or top vents. They reflect 95-97% of radiant heat coming from the roof. These need at least 1-2 inches of air flow between the bottom of the rafters and the top of the radiant barrier to work properly. I plan to get the first leg of this done this weekend.

5. I will be adding more blown-in insulation to my entire house after I add the radiant barrier to bring my house up to R70. I had to air seal the house and add the radiant barrier first.

6. I added interior window film on the interior of all windows, but now I'm going to add exterior film to the lanai windows I have, which see a significant amount of sunlight in the morning. They will reflect a lot of the radiant heat from the sun even coming through the windows to the lanai in the first place.

A couple of years ago I replaced all my CFLs with LEDs, and then I also replaced my AHU with a variable speed unit that runs more or less depending on my cooling needs in Florida.
I love making my house more energy efficient, and eventually, I will be getting a PV system with battery backup for the house.
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Old 03-09-2022, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by civicdrivr
This is likely meant for the climate change thread, but I'm genuinely curious about this - is there research to back this claim? I've lived in homes with heat pumps and they were the exact opposite of efficient.
IDK what to tell you but yeah it's common knowledge that heat pumps are "magic" and some of the only things to have higher than 100% efficiency. usually they're 300% to 500% efficient. That's because they don't generate heat they move heat from the outside to the inside of your house. It takes much much less energy to move 1kwh of ​​​​​​heat than to make 1kwh of heat.

Here's a good video on the subject @civicdrivr

Old 03-09-2022, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gatrhumpy
Here is what I have been doing to make my house more energy efficient.

First, I have a 2,025 sq ft single story house.

1. As some of you know, I added conditioned living space to our lanai last August 2019. This meant a lanai conversion to conditioned space as part of the house. When we converted the lanai, we added two AC supply vents, but no return vent. My original thought process by not adding the return vent last year was that we could just open the interior lanai door and that would be the return vent. However, my wife likes to go out there and read and watch TV, and with the interior lanai door closed, and even with the ac supply vents open and running, it gets hot out there because there is no return to the AC AHU. So yesterday, I added a 10" by 8" AC return vent using 25' insulated AC ducting to the main return hub up in the attic.

Fun fact: installing those in 114 degree heat is no fun.

I also added batt insulation above the lanai to insulate it using R38 batts, and later in May I plan to blow more blown-in insulation above that to bring it up to R70 across the house.

2. I have been air sealing the attic for the past month using cans of Great Stuff foam. I have bought and used over 110 bottles of 16ounces of Great Stuff. I have air sealed around the interior and exterior walls of my house, which is a big pain in the ass. This is because the rooms in my house, except for the master bedroom, master bath, and the kitchen all do not have ceilings that bend down towards the ground. The rest of the house does. I have to squeeze way down in between the rafters to air seal the exterior top plates of the house. The interior walls were less of a pain, but still a job because I had to move the existing blown in insulation out of the way. I air sealed all the electrical lines, can lights, AC vents and returns, vent fans in the bathroom, and stepped ceilings. Air sealing the house allows the AC to work less time because the cool, conditioned air is not being sucked into the hot attic. Based on a blower door test a couple of years ago and some other calculations, I was losing 10% CFM through the AC vents and small leaks going to the attic. Those have now stopped.

3. I have also sealed the 16 can lights I have in my house using a box foam kit and radiant barrier tape. I sealed these up with Great Stuff as well.

4. I just bought Attic Foil 1,000 sq ft radiant barrier for the house. Based on my roof slope, I needed 2,025 sq ft X 1.4 = 2,835 sq ft of radiant barrier film to do my entire attic. The radiant barrier should be installed about 3-6inches above the soffetts to about 2-3 inches below the ridge or top vents. They reflect 95-97% of radiant heat coming from the roof. These need at least 1-2 inches of air flow between the bottom of the rafters and the top of the radiant barrier to work properly. I plan to get the first leg of this done this weekend.

5. I will be adding more blown-in insulation to my entire house after I add the radiant barrier to bring my house up to R70. I had to air seal the house and add the radiant barrier first.

6. I added interior window film on the interior of all windows, but now I'm going to add exterior film to the lanai windows I have, which see a significant amount of sunlight in the morning. They will reflect a lot of the radiant heat from the sun even coming through the windows to the lanai in the first place.

A couple of years ago I replaced all my CFLs with LEDs, and then I also replaced my AHU with a variable speed unit that runs more or less depending on my cooling needs in Florida.
I love making my house more energy efficient, and eventually, I will be getting a PV system with battery backup for the house.
Ayy yoo wtf! How am I just seeing this!? @gatrhumpy this is awesome!

I think I posted about it already but I sealed up all the openings around light fixtures, AC vents, wall power outlets, under the sink, around water pipes etc. with Great stuff foam years ago to reduce air leakage. I don't think Florida homes are as airtight as the ones up north. I think I said this before but another benefit is that these cracks are common ways for bugs to get into your house so instead of paying some company to come spray chemicals around your house every few months you could greatly reduce the number of bug entry points, save money on heating and cooling and make your house more comfortable at the same time by filling in those gaps.

Do you have double-paned windows yet? Any update on the solar/battery combo? How'd the radiant barrier workout in the attic?

I don't own my house but I almost act like I do, the soffit vents were blocked because they vents were painted over, I replaced them and when my landlord replaced the roof I asked him to get a ridge vent installed to help cool the attic. I've yet to run a radiant barrier or other air channeling system to connect the soffit vents with the ridge vent
Old 03-09-2022, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
IDK what to tell you but yeah it's common knowledge that heat pumps are "magic" and some of the only things to have higher than 100% efficiency. usually they're 300% to 500% efficient. That's because they don't generate heat they move heat from the outside to the inside of your house. It takes much much less energy to move 1kwh of ​​​​​​heat than to make 1kwh of heat.

Here's a good video on the subject @civicdrivr
This is not possible, it would violate the laws of thermodynamics. You are right that it takes more energy to convert some source to heat but a heat pump still consumes energy to move heat and the net energy consumed (input power plus cooling) is still less than 100% efficient. Also, heat pumps significantly lose their ability to heat when the delta between the inside and outside is large like it is here in MN which is why most homes around here continue to use natural gas for heat.

Heat pumps are great tools for moderate climates but suck ass when you get to more extremes, the COP plummets with lower source temps. This is also evident in cars equipped with said heat pumps which is why there is a point where natural gas furnaces are more efficient than heat pumps.
Old 03-10-2022, 03:06 PM
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@#1 STUNNA I have not put in a solar or PV system, but it's on the to do list. I have been living with the attic foil now for several months, and it's under 90% of our roof, the only exception being under our garage roof . I love it, and have noticed a big reduction in our cooling bills. In addition, I also put in an additional R-30 blown-in cellulose insulation, so now I have R-70 on my house in most places.

Also, I have now started to target water use, and I am adding POU water heaters to underneath the sinks. Eventually I want to do the showers and bath we have as well. This would eliminate the constant hot water heating and reduce water that is not being used.
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Old 03-10-2022, 05:03 PM
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Which foil product did you use? Do you have any pics of your install? My air handler is in the attic so cooling the attic would help a lot. Did you put insulation underneath the radiant barrier besides the blown-in cellulose?
Old 03-10-2022, 10:52 PM
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@#1 STUNNA I can get pics soon for you. I went with attic foil. They have videos on YouTube.
I ended up getting teo 1K ft rolls, and still have some left over. There is a slight art to how these are supposed to be installed, so make sure you're aware of that.

I personally cut the rolls into sections that were custom fit for each rafter. Took a lot of time, but they are aligned and ensure that nithing gets missed.

Installing them was a pain but worth it. I had to climb on insulation and move insulation a lot to get down into the sloped areas under the roof as well.
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Old 05-10-2022, 08:36 PM
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Heat pumps do work in the cold — Americans just don’t know it yet

These heating/cooling systems have been called the "most overlooked climate solution." Now they can work in temperatures far below freezing.


Heat pumps – heating and cooling systems that run entirely on electricity – have been getting a lot of attention recently. They’ve been called the “most overlooked climate solution” and “an answer to heat waves.” And the technology is finally experiencing a global boom in popularity. Last year, 117 million units were installed worldwide, up from 90 million in 2010. As temperatures and greenhouse gas emissions rise, heat pumps, which can be easily powered by renewable energy, promise to provide a pathway to carbon-free home heating. Environmental activist Bill McKibben even suggested sending heat pumps to Europe to help wean the continent off Russian natural gas.

But despite this global surge in popularity, heat pumps in the U.S. are laboring under a misconception that has plagued them for decades: That if the temperature falls to below 30 or even 40 degrees Fahrenheit, their technology simply doesn’t work. “Do heat pumps work in cold weather” is even a trending question on Google.

It’s a narrative that Andy Meyer, a senior program manager for the independent state agency Efficiency Maine, has spent the past decade debunking for residents in one of the U.S.’s coldest states.

“There were two types of people in Maine in 2012,” he said. “Those who didn’t know what heat pumps were — and those who knew they didn’t work in the cold.” But while that concern may have been true years ago, he said, today “it’s not at all true for high-performance heat pumps.”

Air-source heat pumps — there are also geothermal heat pumps and water-source heat pumps — are poorly named and poorly understood. (According to one small 2020 study from the heating tech company Sealed, about 47 percent of homeowners in the U.S. Northeast had never even heard of heat pumps.) They are essentially reversible air conditioners: Like AC units, they can take heat from inside a home and pump it out to provide a cooling effect. But unlike air conditioners, they can also run backwards — drawing heat from outdoors and bringing it inside to warm a home.

That process of moving heat rather than creating it explains why heat pumps are mind-blowingly efficient. A gas furnace — which burns natural gas to create heat — can only reach around 95 percent efficiency. A heat pump can easily reach 300 or 400 percent efficiency; that is, it can make around 3 to 4 times as much energy as it consumes.

Years ago, the technology really only worked in mild climates. The early generation of heat pumps were installed mostly in southern states that needed air conditioning and just a little bit of extra warmth in the winter. “They really gained traction in areas where it wasn’t cold,” said Ben Schoenbauer, a senior research engineer at the Center for Energy and Environment, or CEE, in Minnesota.

But over the past decade or so, heating companies began developing a new generation of heat pumps with “inverter-driven variable-speed compressors” — a mouthful of a term that essentially gives the heat pump the ability to more quickly transport heat from frigid outdoor air.

Soon, high-performance heat pumps were being produced that could warm a home even when outdoor temperatures were down to -31 degrees Fahrenheit. (Even in extreme sub-zero temperatures, there is still some amount of heat in outdoor air.) A heat pump’s efficiency does go down as it gets colder, but even in subzero temperatures high-end units can be over 100 percent efficient. And in recent years, some of the country’s coldest states have gone all-in on the technology. According to a study in Environmental Research Letters, heat pumps could reduce CO2 emissions in 70 percent of homes across the country; homes heated by inefficient electric heaters or fuel oil could particularly benefit. Utilities and states have started offering rebates for consumers to install heat pumps, even in colder states like New York, Massachusetts, or Maine. Many environmental groups and state agencies are working hard to convince residents that top-of-the-line heat pumps can function well in cold climates.

Efficiency Maine has been part of that trend. Early on, Meyer said, residents were deeply skeptical that a simple electric device could keep them warm in the state’s frigid conditions. But Efficiency Maine recruited installers, ran social media and radio ads, and released studies and reports showing that heat pumps could work. “It started in Northern Maine — a very close, tightly knit community,” Meyer said. Once a few people installed heat pumps, they began telling their friends, who told their friends, and so on. So far, Meyer says, Efficiency Maine has offered rebates for 100,000 heat pumps — in a state where there are less than 600,000 occupied housing units. Maine now has a higher rate of heat pump installations per capita than most European countries.

Other organizations are doing similar work. The Center for Energy and Environment in Minnesota has formed a collaborative with utilities to help boost heat pump adoption in the state; they also maintain a list of contractors who have been vetted to install the systems. The Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnerships, a Massachusetts-based nonprofit, has resources for installers and consumers, including a list of air-source heat pumps that operate well under the climate conditions of Northeast states. Some heat pumps are even being installed in Alaska, where average winter temperatures hover around a high of 23 degrees Fahrenheit.

One of the benefits of installing heat pumps is cost-savings. In Maine, many homes are heated with fuel oil or propane. At current prices, Meyer says, running a heat pump costs half as much as oil and one-third as much as propane. According to Efficiency Maine’s analysis, that can save homeowners up to thousands of dollars in annual energy costs. A 2017 study by CEE similarly found that installing heat pumps in Minnesota could save residents between $349 and $764 per year, compared to heating with a standard electric or propane furnace.

There are some caveats. Lacey Tan, a manager for the carbon-free buildings program at the energy think tank RMI, says there is still a price premium for heat pumps: Some installers aren’t yet comfortable with how they work and try to reduce their risk by increasing up-front costs. In cold climates, some homes may want to have a back-up heating system for extremely frigid days or in the event of a power outage. (In Maine, Meyer says many homeowners use wood stoves as back-up for their heat pumps.)

But many experts believe more and more cold-weather heat pumps will be sold as homeowners learn about the new advances in the technology. Meyer says that Mainers who install heat pumps naturally begin to share their experience with friends and family. “We have over 100,000 salespeople who have already gotten heat pumps,” he said jokingly. “Not bad for a state where they ‘don’t work in the cold.’”
Old 08-20-2022, 03:50 PM
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I will be updating this thread with info about federal energy efficiency rebates when it becomes available
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Old 08-20-2022, 03:57 PM
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@civicdrivr tell us about your solar panels…
Old 08-22-2022, 02:58 PM
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It's just a typical system - 9.5kW, made up of 24 QCells 395w panels and Enphase IQ8+ microinverters. Unfortunately, because of some the large pine trees in my backyard, it doesn't really start to produce much until 9:30-10a, but it keeps producing until about 6pm. I'm curious to see what it will do in the winter months, but on the hottest days it covers about 80% of my electricity usage. I may add another ~6 panels on the other side of the roof to capture more sun but for now I'm just going to see how it works for about a year.

I would love to do a Tesla Powerwall but they will not connect up to an existing solar array (or sell it without their panels anymore). I did price out other batteries but they just aren't worth it ($10k to start).

I am getting my crawlspace encapsulated and a dehumidifier installed the first week of September. I'm curious to see how that impacts my AC usage, since that is the biggest electricity hog at the moment.

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Old 08-22-2022, 03:30 PM
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We're probably going to have a auto-failover generator installed first, then may look into solar. Our old house had an older 1.5kW system, but got tons of exposure, Lots of more mature trees at our house now, so not sure how effective solar will be.
Old 08-22-2022, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by civicdrivr
It's just a typical system - 9.5kW, made up of 24 QCells 395w panels and Enphase IQ8+ microinverters. Unfortunately, because of some the large pine trees in my backyard, it doesn't really start to produce much until 9:30-10a, but it keeps producing until about 6pm. I'm curious to see what it will do in the winter months, but on the hottest days it covers about 80% of my electricity usage. I may add another ~6 panels on the other side of the roof to capture more sun but for now I'm just going to see how it works for about a year.

I would love to do a Tesla Powerwall but they will not connect up to an existing solar array (or sell it without their panels anymore). I did price out other batteries but they just aren't worth it ($10k to start).

I am getting my crawlspace encapsulated and a dehumidifier installed the first week of September. I'm curious to see how that impacts my AC usage, since that is the biggest electricity hog at the moment.

If you got more panels what direction would they be facing? SunRun bundles powerwalls with new systems, maybe they'd be cool and install one on your existing system or you could get a powerwall installed if/when you add extra panels to your system

My friend added more panels to his system and was able to add a 2nd powerwall with them but he added Tesla's small size solar system + battery to his already existing Tesla system.

I had a dehumidifier for a few days, I returned it because it increased my AC usage. The air coming out of the dehumidifier was dry but warm and my AC started running more to cool it down.

That was a plugin standalone unit I got from Best Buy so maybe it's different for system built into the air handler, but probably not

Thanks for getting solar panels and an EV!

Last edited by #1 STUNNA; 08-22-2022 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 08-22-2022, 10:10 PM
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Here’s how the new US tax credits and rebates will work for clean energy home upgrades

US President Joe Biden signed the big climate bill – the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) – earlier this week. Electrek spoke with Dan Gayer, JD, CPA, a senior manager in the tax practice at Baker Newman Noyes, about how homeowners can claim tax credits and rebates as they work to achieve energy efficiency and lower their energy bills.


Energy Efficient Home Improvement Credit

Changes to the former Nonbusiness Energy Property credit, now renamed the Energy Efficient Home Improvement Credit, will take effect on January 1, 2023.

The old credit was worth 10% of the costs of installing insulation, windows, doors, roofing, and other energy-saving improvements. The old $500 lifetime limitation still applies for the rest of 2022.

From 2023, a $1,200 annual tax credit limit will replace the old $500 lifetime limit. The tax credit will be equal to 30% of the costs for all eligible home improvements made during the year. It has also been expanded to cover things such as biomass stoves and boilers, electric panels, and home energy audits.

Beginning in 2023, annual limits for particular types of qualifying alterations were improved. For example, it’s $250 for an exterior door, or $500 for all exterior doors; $600 for exterior windows and skylights; and $2,000 for heat pump and heat pump hot water heaters for homeowners who don’t qualify for the rebate due to higher household income – see below. (The latter $2,000 is the exception to the $1,200 annual limit.)

Residential Clean Energy Credit

The Residential Clean Energy Credit, which is now extended through 2034, was previously called the Residential Energy Efficient Property Credit.

The credit amount for installing clean household energy such as solar, wind, or geothermal has been raised from 26% to 30% from 2022 to 2032. It then falls to 26% for 2033 and 22% for 2034.

Gayer says of the timing of household solar tax credits:
On the solar credits, both the residential credits and business investment tax credits are back to 30% effective for solar equipment placed in service any time after January 1, 2022.
Gayer went on to explain how homeowners can secure tax credits for both the Energy Efficient Home Improvement Credit and the Residential Clean Energy Credit under the IRA umbrella:
The mechanics of claiming this credit appear to be the same in 2022 and 2023 as they were in the past – the credit is claimed on the purchaser’s individual income tax return. The purchaser does not need to submit specific documentation with the tax return, but should retain documentation as part of their tax records so they can prove they purchased eligible property in the event of an IRS audit.

Vendors should be able to provide purchasers with this type of documentation. In 2024 and future years, manufacturers need to create a specific product identification number for each qualifying product they sell, and purchasers must include this number on their tax returns to claim the credit.
August 20 update: Some readers have asked for battery storage clarification, and quite rightly so. Here’s the lowdown: Before the IRA, it was 26% tax credit for battery storage charged with onsite solar only. Under the IRA, it follows the same timeline as solar, starting at 30% tax credit from 2023 (see above). But the big change is that the tax credit will now be available from 2023 for storage batteries with a capacity of at least 3 kWh, regardless of energy source.

High-Efficiency Electric Home Rebate Program

The IRA’s $4.28 billion High-Efficiency Electric Home Rebate Program will provide an upfront rebate of up to $8,000 to install heat pumps that can both heat and cool homes. It also provides a rebate of up to $1,750 for heat pump water heaters.

There’s also a rebate of up to $840 to offset the cost of a heat-pump clothes dryer or an electric stove, including induction ranges.

If a home needs an electrical panel upgrade to support new electrical appliances, then there’s up to a $4,000 rebate to help with that. There’s also a rebate of up to $2,500 for electrical wiring improvements.

And for one of the most cost-efficient and quickest ways to make a home more energy-efficient – insulation and sealing – there’s a rebate of up to $1,600.

Homeowners will be able to collect a maximum of $14,000 total in rebates. Household income cannot exceed 150% of the area median income as calculated by the Department of Housing and Urban Development in order to qualify. (Here’s an Area Median Income Lookup Tool from Fannie Mae to see what your limit is.) According to the bill itself, rebates start after December 31, 2022.

Gayer elaborated on the details of how the rebates will work:
The Inflation Reduction Act does not give specifics on how this rebate will be administered – the details here are left to the Treasury Department to issue general guidelines and then provide grants to state governments, who are the ones charged with actually implementing the program and giving out the rebates.

The intent here is to provide rebates to qualified purchasers at the point of sale, so this will be a direct discount on the purchase price rather than a credit claimed on a tax return.

Given how much still needs to happen at both the federal and state levels to write more detailed rules and get the necessary administrative procedures set up, it seems unlikely that this rebate program will be up and running until sometime in 2023, and the exact details of the program may be different in every state.
The rebate program will run through September 30, 2031, and the Energy Efficient Home Improvement Credit will run through 2032.
​​​​​​​
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civicdrivr (08-23-2022)
Old 08-23-2022, 09:18 AM
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I'm happy to see that the solar credit is retroactive. But now I'm wondering if I should hold off on the crawlspace encapsulation to take advantage of the insulation credit that goes into effect Jan 1 2023.

Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
If you got more panels what direction would they be facing? SunRun bundles powerwalls with new systems, maybe they'd be cool and install one on your existing system or you could get a powerwall installed if/when you add extra panels to your system

My friend added more panels to his system and was able to add a 2nd powerwall with them but he added Tesla's small size solar system + battery to his already existing Tesla system.

I had a dehumidifier for a few days, I returned it because it increased my AC usage. The air coming out of the dehumidifier was dry but warm and my AC started running more to cool it down.

That was a plugin standalone unit I got from Best Buy so maybe it's different for system built into the air handler, but probably not

Thanks for getting solar panels and an EV!
The current system faces south-southeast (panels face azimuth: -17*). I have additional space on that roof to add another 4-5 panels, but they wouldn't be good performers due to tree cover. The side I'm thinking about expanding to would face west-northwest. Because of the angle, it would get a good amount of afternoon sun (from ~3pm until sundown) during summer. I'll analyze it throughout the winter to see if it's still capturing a good amount of sun. If it is, I'll likely expand. My roof is at a 30* tilt, which slightly favors summer production (my lattitude is 37*), so we'll see.

Tesla has been really weird with their Powerwall systems lately. If I expand my system, I'm sure I could have them install it as a stand alone and then have my local solar company connect the existing system to it. But from what I've read on the forums, they will not connect to an existing array, nor will they sell the Powerwall on it's own anymore.

Regarding the dehumidifier, it won't be attached to the existing HVAC system. It would be in the crawlspace to mitigate moisture down there (my neighborhood was built on wetlands).
Old 08-30-2022, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by civicdrivr
It's just a typical system - 9.5kW, made up of 24 QCells 395w panels and Enphase IQ8+ microinverters. Unfortunately, because of some the large pine trees in my backyard, it doesn't really start to produce much until 9:30-10a, but it keeps producing until about 6pm. I'm curious to see what it will do in the winter months, but on the hottest days it covers about 80% of my electricity usage. I may add another ~6 panels on the other side of the roof to capture more sun but for now I'm just going to see how it works for about a year.

I would love to do a Tesla Powerwall but they will not connect up to an existing solar array (or sell it without their panels anymore). I did price out other batteries but they just aren't worth it ($10k to start).

I am getting my crawlspace encapsulated and a dehumidifier installed the first week of September. I'm curious to see how that impacts my AC usage, since that is the biggest electricity hog at the moment.
If you don't mind me asking, how much was the initial expense and what do you predict your pay back period to be?

Does the array cover 80% of your electric needs including that of your California Camry?

New house has a YUGE space on the back of the house that's south facing and has no tree cover at all. Thinking about taking advantage of all the free money if it makes sense to do so.
Old 08-30-2022, 12:43 PM
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^ Was looking at my roof Sunday while mowing the back & was surprised at the sun coverage on the roof, even with all of the very tall trees around.
Might have to look into it again.
Old 08-30-2022, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SamDoe1
If you don't mind me asking, how much was the initial expense and what do you predict your pay back period to be?

Does the array cover 80% of your electric needs including that of your California Camry?

New house has a YUGE space on the back of the house that's south facing and has no tree cover at all. Thinking about taking advantage of all the free money if it makes sense to do so.
$22k installed; $15k after tax incentives. It's at 78% since power on at the end of June, and ~1/3rd of that time it has been raining. It's produced 2.3mwh in 63 days. I have yet to receive a bill from the power company because they replaced the meter in June and then changed my rate schedule in July, but I should see a bill in the next week or two, which will give me a much better understanding of what the panels cover (I have a consumption meter but I'm curious how accurate it is).

I have the car set to charge between 12-5am so it's pulling cheaper juice - 9 cents per kwh compared to 12 or 22 cents, depending on time. I do this just in case it's raining and solar isn't enough during the day. This also allows me to sell any unused electricity back at higher rates.
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