...got pecs?
10-12-2005, 03:00 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by gavriil
And that is fine. No one has to change their minds about anything here. However we can have a discussion about some of his points.
Let me start by asking you this question:
Do you think that machines engage more muscle fibers than free weights?
Let me start by asking you this question:
Do you think that machines engage more muscle fibers than free weights?
If no one has an answer, let me ask another question:
Is it true that one's elbows should be in the angle that Milos "frantically" and repeatitivealy described in the video? And why?
10-12-2005, 03:02 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by mantis23
Whats wrong with core training? My last personal trainer was an advocate of it.
there's nothing wrong with "core" training... I, personally, don't do it.... cause when I'm training... a muscle... I'm "focus" on THAT muscle... I don't want to have to deal with a balancing act... that's just me... I grew up with bodybuilders and I think and train like one... but being a personal trainer myself... I train people accordingly to their needs... and yes, I do train some of my clients with "core" principles in mind... (usually women and kids and older people), I mean... go to a hard core gym like Gold's Gym of Venice... and look at every bodybuilder... and see how many of 'em do "core". Because that kind of training does NOT suit their needs... But trust me... the more "core" muscles are involved... "isolating" a muscle else where becomes more difficult... and to me... I rather just go straight to the point...
(and, I'm going to admit to you at the same time... the chances of me "throwing" my back out is a lot more higher... cause the fact that I NEVER do "core")
10-12-2005, 03:04 PM
#43
I shoot people
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Originally Posted by rise
He is pointing out that he may be a bit bias because he appears to be good friends with Milo? 
I wouldn't exactly say that we're good friends... but I do... occasionally go back to the gym where I practically grew up... which took over about 5 years ago... but I've been a member at that gym since 89' (Gold's Gym of Fullerton, Ca.)
10-13-2005, 10:29 AM
#47
If he had nothing but machines I would say he had an agenda but all he was saying was mix them in. The only reason I believe this man is that most big guys I know do the exact same thing. I used to go to a gym called "Powerhouse" where it was nothing but raw weights, no aerobics, no spinning, just weights and a few cardio machines. All the guys I know told me the same thing so it's kinda hard not to believe him.
10-13-2005, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JesusJuice
If he had nothing but machines I would say he had an agenda but all he was saying was mix them in. .
10-13-2005, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Doom878
I would think the only reason to use machines is to keep your muscles "guessing" so that you don't plateau.
I am not anti-machine. I have explained in other posts that I do use machines myself when it makes sense.
Milos said that machines engage more fibers than free weights, which is completely untrue. He also said other things that promote isolation which is also not the best way to grow muscle fast. I even have trouble with his explanation about how to bench press and the position of the elbows.
10-13-2005, 04:31 PM
#51
Originally Posted by gavriil
Sorry, but that's not what he said. He did not say mix them in, he said that machines engage more muscle fibers than free weights because of isolation reasons basically, which completely false according to my knowledge about how and why muscle grows and how isolation affects that potential.
10-13-2005, 04:37 PM
#52
I
Originally Posted by gavriil
I am not anti-machine. I have explained in other posts that I do use machines myself when it makes sense.
Milos said that machines engage more fibers than free weights, which is completely untrue. He also said other things that promote isolation which is also not the best way to grow muscle fast. I even have trouble with his explanation about how to bench press and the position of the elbows.
Milos said that machines engage more fibers than free weights, which is completely untrue. He also said other things that promote isolation which is also not the best way to grow muscle fast. I even have trouble with his explanation about how to bench press and the position of the elbows.
10-13-2005, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rise
what would you say machines are good for?
1. Machines are great for an untrained person who is now starting to get into lifting. They are great for the first 3-6 months.
2. Machines are great for people that do not know how to use free weights or feel uncertain about form.
3. Machines are good for certain exercises for semi-advanced lifters like, assisted pull ups for heavy people (cables accompanied with the special belt one wears to attach the cable in order to be assisted), another example is assisted dips, same as above, another example is the T-row machine, some see it as a machine, some not.
4. Machines are great for athletes of othe sports (other than bodybulding or powerlifting). Like in my case, a volleyball player needs to do some dynamic lifting and cables are very useful in various exercises (that does not mean that machines are only to be used even in the above case but they are necessary due to biomechanics)
5. Finally machines can be recommended for advanced lifters, ONLY AS A THIRD OR HIGHER, EXERCISE of a given muscle group. Example: Leg day: I will use the leg press, but only after I free squatted, also I will do 2-3 max sets of leg extentions as a third or fourth exercise because the muscle is hit in a very different way in this particular exercise, plus I like the dynamic nature of the lef extention machine. When I have time and energy, I even use the adduction and abduction machine, but only at the very very end of my day, etc.
Machines are NOT recommended as a first exercise, ever (only exceptions are the assisted lift examples I mentioned above). And they do not, in any possible way, engage more muscle fibers than a free weight exercise will. Machines, in most cases, promote isolation which is agains the fastest way of growing muscle. In the case of a bodybuilder or even the amature athlete who's goals are to grow muscle in the most efficient way for a given time, machines are not appropriate.
10-13-2005, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FastAcura
I don't know, different things work for different people. But I do know that whatever Milos does, it seems to be working so I'm gonna try to follow his advice.
"which way does muscle build the fastest when it comes to stimulation?"
The answers to the above question are the same for every one of us, including male and female athletes.
Second, if you do what Milos said, it does not mean that you WILL NOT grow muscle. I am not saying that. I am saying that you will NOT grow muscle the fastest possible way. Again, I dont think Milos and any Milos will come out and tell you what's the fastest way to build muscle for free. Think about it.
10-13-2005, 05:38 PM
#56
I
Originally Posted by gavriil
Again, I dont think Milos and any Milos will come out and tell you what's the fastest way to build muscle for free. Think about it.
10-13-2005, 05:43 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by gavriil
1. Machines are great for an untrained person who is now starting to get into lifting. They are great for the first 3-6 months.
2. Machines are great for people that do not know how to use free weights or feel uncertain about form.
3. Machines are good for certain exercises for semi-advanced lifters like, assisted pull ups for heavy people (cables accompanied with the special belt one wears to attach the cable in order to be assisted), another example is assisted dips, same as above, another example is the T-row machine, some see it as a machine, some not.
4. Machines are great for athletes of othe sports (other than bodybulding or powerlifting). Like in my case, a volleyball player needs to do some dynamic lifting and cables are very useful in various exercises (that does not mean that machines are only to be used even in the above case but they are necessary due to biomechanics)
5. Finally machines can be recommended for advanced lifters, ONLY AS A THIRD OR HIGHER, EXERCISE of a given muscle group. Example: Leg day: I will use the leg press, but only after I free squatted, also I will do 2-3 max sets of leg extentions as a third or fourth exercise because the muscle is hit in a very different way in this particular exercise, plus I like the dynamic nature of the lef extention machine. When I have time and energy, I even use the adduction and abduction machine, but only at the very very end of my day, etc.
Machines are NOT recommended as a first exercise, ever (only exceptions are the assisted lift examples I mentioned above). And they do not, in any possible way, engage more muscle fibers than a free weight exercise will. Machines, in most cases, promote isolation which is agains the fastest way of growing muscle. In the case of a bodybuilder or even the amature athlete who's goals are to grow muscle in the most efficient way for a given time, machines are not appropriate.
2. Machines are great for people that do not know how to use free weights or feel uncertain about form.
3. Machines are good for certain exercises for semi-advanced lifters like, assisted pull ups for heavy people (cables accompanied with the special belt one wears to attach the cable in order to be assisted), another example is assisted dips, same as above, another example is the T-row machine, some see it as a machine, some not.
4. Machines are great for athletes of othe sports (other than bodybulding or powerlifting). Like in my case, a volleyball player needs to do some dynamic lifting and cables are very useful in various exercises (that does not mean that machines are only to be used even in the above case but they are necessary due to biomechanics)
5. Finally machines can be recommended for advanced lifters, ONLY AS A THIRD OR HIGHER, EXERCISE of a given muscle group. Example: Leg day: I will use the leg press, but only after I free squatted, also I will do 2-3 max sets of leg extentions as a third or fourth exercise because the muscle is hit in a very different way in this particular exercise, plus I like the dynamic nature of the lef extention machine. When I have time and energy, I even use the adduction and abduction machine, but only at the very very end of my day, etc.
Machines are NOT recommended as a first exercise, ever (only exceptions are the assisted lift examples I mentioned above). And they do not, in any possible way, engage more muscle fibers than a free weight exercise will. Machines, in most cases, promote isolation which is agains the fastest way of growing muscle. In the case of a bodybuilder or even the amature athlete who's goals are to grow muscle in the most efficient way for a given time, machines are not appropriate.
I hate to say this, but you might be a "Mega Moderator" on an internet forum, but I'm a personal trainer with over 500 (real life) clients in the past 8 years... have been in the gym scene since 87', most of those IN A HARD CORE GYM, with 2 personal friends turning IFBB pro... (Melvin Anthony and Tavita Aloha), I work for Michael Thurmond of "Extreme Makeovers" -ABC, and I have to say... I disagree with most everything you've said...
10-13-2005, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FastAcura
You're right. Afterall, he's Yugoslavian. Those greedy bastards always try to steal/make the most money possible off of you.
Let me give you another example: most of what mags write is either inaccurate, not the whole story, or compeltely wrong. Think about it. Could the answer to building muscle were in magazines one could buy off a rack?
10-13-2005, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by is300eater
I hate to say this, but you might be a "Mega Moderator" on an internet forum, but I'm a personal trainer with over 500 (real life) clients in the past 8 years... have been in the gym scene since 87', most of those IN A HARD CORE GYM, with 2 personal friends turning IFBB pro... (Melvin Anthony and Tavita Aloha), I work for Michael Thurmond of "Extreme Makeovers" -ABC, and I have to say... I disagree with most everything you've said...
Second, it's fine you disagree. Why dont you tell me where you disagree and why. In relation to that, I asked you a couple of questions above, I never got an answer and then wondered why. As I said before here, let's have a discussion. I wrote what machines are good for, you disagree. Elaborate.
10-14-2005, 01:50 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by gavriil
First let me say, what does me being a mod have to do with anything here?
Second, it's fine you disagree. Why dont you tell me where you disagree and why. In relation to that, I asked you a couple of questions above, I never got an answer and then wondered why. As I said before here, let's have a discussion. I wrote what machines are good for, you disagree. Elaborate.
Second, it's fine you disagree. Why dont you tell me where you disagree and why. In relation to that, I asked you a couple of questions above, I never got an answer and then wondered why. As I said before here, let's have a discussion. I wrote what machines are good for, you disagree. Elaborate.
ya know... it's really one of those things that you just have to go do... and I can tell YOU haven't even try some of the methods... in the video...
.... I mean, there are people that's posted, that's actually tried it, and gave a positive feed back... I'll admit... I'm NOT good with words... I'm more of a... "action speaks louder than words..." kinda guy... I just "do" it and in my case... I've been "doing" it for many years with many (and I mean... MANY) people that'll testify on my behalf (that I know what I'm doing).
...and you're right, maybe being a "Mega Moderator" doesn't have anything to do with anything.. but I think with what've done, which is helping, literally hundreds of people reach their goal... and also what I've been able to accomplish myself... I really think I know what I'm doing...
I read some of your posts... and all I can do is shake my head...
you say "things" about pro bodybuilders as if you've known some in your life... you say that Milos' has some kind of "hidden agenda"... what a f-in' joke!!! You don't know shit, trust me... if Milos has a "hidden agenda" it wouldn't be giving positive advice on the use of machines when he doesn't mean it. I grew up with some of these guys... and for you to go on and on... as if you really know what you're talking about... I can't even think of the words to express how I feel. I dunno... I'm "over it".
why don't you "try it" first, and don't give me some b.s. that you've have... cause I won't buy it...
you remind me of some anti import car guy, that'll sit there and rag on imports, but yet, have never driven one.
10-14-2005, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by is300eater
ya know... it's really one of those things that you just have to go do... and I can tell YOU haven't even try some of the methods... in the video...
.... I mean, there are people that's posted, that's actually tried it, and gave a positive feed back... I'll admit... I'm NOT good with words... I'm more of a... "action speaks louder than words..." kinda guy... I just "do" it and in my case... I've been "doing" it for many years with many (and I mean... MANY) people that'll testify on my behalf (that I know what I'm doing).
...and you're right, maybe being a "Mega Moderator" doesn't have anything to do with anything.. but I think with what've done, which is helping, literally hundreds of people reach their goal... and also what I've been able to accomplish myself... I really think I know what I'm doing...
I read some of your posts... and all I can do is shake my head...
you say "things" about pro bodybuilders as if you've known some in your life... you say that Milos' has some kind of "hidden agenda"... what a f-in' joke!!! You don't know shit, trust me... if Milos has a "hidden agenda" it wouldn't be giving positive advice on the use of machines when he doesn't mean it. I grew up with some of these guys... and for you to go on and on... as if you really know what you're talking about... I can't even think of the words to express how I feel. I dunno... I'm "over it".
why don't you "try it" first, and don't give me some b.s. that you've have... cause I won't buy it...
you remind me of some anti import car guy, that'll sit there and rag on imports, but yet, have never driven one.
.... I mean, there are people that's posted, that's actually tried it, and gave a positive feed back... I'll admit... I'm NOT good with words... I'm more of a... "action speaks louder than words..." kinda guy... I just "do" it and in my case... I've been "doing" it for many years with many (and I mean... MANY) people that'll testify on my behalf (that I know what I'm doing).
...and you're right, maybe being a "Mega Moderator" doesn't have anything to do with anything.. but I think with what've done, which is helping, literally hundreds of people reach their goal... and also what I've been able to accomplish myself... I really think I know what I'm doing...
I read some of your posts... and all I can do is shake my head...
you say "things" about pro bodybuilders as if you've known some in your life... you say that Milos' has some kind of "hidden agenda"... what a f-in' joke!!! You don't know shit, trust me... if Milos has a "hidden agenda" it wouldn't be giving positive advice on the use of machines when he doesn't mean it. I grew up with some of these guys... and for you to go on and on... as if you really know what you're talking about... I can't even think of the words to express how I feel. I dunno... I'm "over it".
why don't you "try it" first, and don't give me some b.s. that you've have... cause I won't buy it...
you remind me of some anti import car guy, that'll sit there and rag on imports, but yet, have never driven one.
However, again, you are simply avoiding justifying your beliefs. I asked you very specific questions and you have not answered any of them. The only thing you keep saying is that my posts are wrong and deserve for someone who knows what they are doing to shake their head and roll their eyes. It is very possible that I dont know what I am talking about. No doubt. But at least I have an explanation of everything I state that works or does not work. Do you? I am asking you so that you tell us so we all understand since you have grown up with champions and in the gym, etc. BTW you only assume that I have not, since you do not know anything about me, but I will pretend that is not a big deal since it's not the point.
So I ask you again (before getting on a plane for a weekend trip, so know why I would not have answered until Monday):
1. Do machines engage more muscle fibers than free weights as Milos categorically said? I assume you agree with him so your answer would be "yes", then I simply ask you, WHY? Can you justify your beliefs? And please dont tell me again "because others have done it" because that's simply not good enough.
I happen to be a person that does not take someone's word no matter who they are. I always ask WHY something happens or not. If that so called expert cannot justify it, then I just keep it in the back of my head just in case it comes up again in the future and someone else can explain it to me. If not, I simply dont follow it. Someone that can explain it though and it makes sense, even, to me, then I take it seriously. So again, can you explain to us, in plain English, as an expert that you claim you are, or at least more of an expert than us, why do machines engage more fibers than free weights?
2. Can you explain to us why Milos keeps backing isolation as better than not. He does it in numerous instances in his video. Do you believe that isolation is better for growing muscle and if yes, WHY?
I have more questions for you if you dare answer and explain the above. This is the third time I ask you and all I get back is basically a super pissed forum member with no substance in his answers which only contain frustration. Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean you answer back like you hate them. Just simply explain your ideas, that way we might all learn. I repeat, I dont claim there is nothing out there I can learn from people. So maybe I can learn from you, but you have to try and explain that lesson to me, instead of yelling at me like I just stole money from you or cursed your mother.
Relax and tell us what you know.
Off to the airport, I will talk to all of you next week.
10-14-2005, 09:43 AM
#62
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Originally Posted by is300eater
ya know... it's really one of those things that you just have to go do... and I can tell YOU haven't even try some of the methods... in the video...
.... I mean, there are people that's posted, that's actually tried it, and gave a positive feed back... I'll admit... I'm NOT good with words... I'm more of a... "action speaks louder than words..." kinda guy... I just "do" it and in my case... I've been "doing" it for many years with many (and I mean... MANY) people that'll testify on my behalf (that I know what I'm doing).
...and you're right, maybe being a "Mega Moderator" doesn't have anything to do with anything.. but I think with what've done, which is helping, literally hundreds of people reach their goal... and also what I've been able to accomplish myself... I really think I know what I'm doing...
I read some of your posts... and all I can do is shake my head...
you say "things" about pro bodybuilders as if you've known some in your life... you say that Milos' has some kind of "hidden agenda"... what a f-in' joke!!! You don't know shit, trust me... if Milos has a "hidden agenda" it wouldn't be giving positive advice on the use of machines when he doesn't mean it. I grew up with some of these guys... and for you to go on and on... as if you really know what you're talking about... I can't even think of the words to express how I feel. I dunno... I'm "over it".
why don't you "try it" first, and don't give me some b.s. that you've have... cause I won't buy it...
you remind me of some anti import car guy, that'll sit there and rag on imports, but yet, have never driven one.
.... I mean, there are people that's posted, that's actually tried it, and gave a positive feed back... I'll admit... I'm NOT good with words... I'm more of a... "action speaks louder than words..." kinda guy... I just "do" it and in my case... I've been "doing" it for many years with many (and I mean... MANY) people that'll testify on my behalf (that I know what I'm doing).
...and you're right, maybe being a "Mega Moderator" doesn't have anything to do with anything.. but I think with what've done, which is helping, literally hundreds of people reach their goal... and also what I've been able to accomplish myself... I really think I know what I'm doing...
I read some of your posts... and all I can do is shake my head...
you say "things" about pro bodybuilders as if you've known some in your life... you say that Milos' has some kind of "hidden agenda"... what a f-in' joke!!! You don't know shit, trust me... if Milos has a "hidden agenda" it wouldn't be giving positive advice on the use of machines when he doesn't mean it. I grew up with some of these guys... and for you to go on and on... as if you really know what you're talking about... I can't even think of the words to express how I feel. I dunno... I'm "over it".
why don't you "try it" first, and don't give me some b.s. that you've have... cause I won't buy it...
you remind me of some anti import car guy, that'll sit there and rag on imports, but yet, have never driven one.
10-14-2005, 12:18 PM
#63
I shoot people
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by gavriil
Wow dude, I must have done something very wrong to you cos you sound extremely pissed at me. Which of course is not the case because we dont know each other.
However, again, you are simply avoiding justifying your beliefs. I asked you very specific questions and you have not answered any of them. The only thing you keep saying is that my posts are wrong and deserve for someone who knows what they are doing to shake their head and roll their eyes. It is very possible that I dont know what I am talking about. No doubt. But at least I have an explanation of everything I state that works or does not work. Do you? I am asking you so that you tell us so we all understand since you have grown up with champions and in the gym, etc. BTW you only assume that I have not, since you do not know anything about me, but I will pretend that is not a big deal since it's not the point.
So I ask you again (before getting on a plane for a weekend trip, so know why I would not have answered until Monday):
1. Do machines engage more muscle fibers than free weights as Milos categorically said? I assume you agree with him so your answer would be "yes", then I simply ask you, WHY? Can you justify your beliefs? And please dont tell me again "because others have done it" because that's simply not good enough.
I happen to be a person that does not take someone's word no matter who they are. I always ask WHY something happens or not. If that so called expert cannot justify it, then I just keep it in the back of my head just in case it comes up again in the future and someone else can explain it to me. If not, I simply dont follow it. Someone that can explain it though and it makes sense, even, to me, then I take it seriously. So again, can you explain to us, in plain English, as an expert that you claim you are, or at least more of an expert than us, why do machines engage more fibers than free weights?
2. Can you explain to us why Milos keeps backing isolation as better than not. He does it in numerous instances in his video. Do you believe that isolation is better for growing muscle and if yes, WHY?
I have more questions for you if you dare answer and explain the above. This is the third time I ask you and all I get back is basically a super pissed forum member with no substance in his answers which only contain frustration. Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean you answer back like you hate them. Just simply explain your ideas, that way we might all learn. I repeat, I dont claim there is nothing out there I can learn from people. So maybe I can learn from you, but you have to try and explain that lesson to me, instead of yelling at me like I just stole money from you or cursed your mother.
Relax and tell us what you know.
Off to the airport, I will talk to all of you next week.
However, again, you are simply avoiding justifying your beliefs. I asked you very specific questions and you have not answered any of them. The only thing you keep saying is that my posts are wrong and deserve for someone who knows what they are doing to shake their head and roll their eyes. It is very possible that I dont know what I am talking about. No doubt. But at least I have an explanation of everything I state that works or does not work. Do you? I am asking you so that you tell us so we all understand since you have grown up with champions and in the gym, etc. BTW you only assume that I have not, since you do not know anything about me, but I will pretend that is not a big deal since it's not the point.
So I ask you again (before getting on a plane for a weekend trip, so know why I would not have answered until Monday):
1. Do machines engage more muscle fibers than free weights as Milos categorically said? I assume you agree with him so your answer would be "yes", then I simply ask you, WHY? Can you justify your beliefs? And please dont tell me again "because others have done it" because that's simply not good enough.
I happen to be a person that does not take someone's word no matter who they are. I always ask WHY something happens or not. If that so called expert cannot justify it, then I just keep it in the back of my head just in case it comes up again in the future and someone else can explain it to me. If not, I simply dont follow it. Someone that can explain it though and it makes sense, even, to me, then I take it seriously. So again, can you explain to us, in plain English, as an expert that you claim you are, or at least more of an expert than us, why do machines engage more fibers than free weights?
2. Can you explain to us why Milos keeps backing isolation as better than not. He does it in numerous instances in his video. Do you believe that isolation is better for growing muscle and if yes, WHY?
I have more questions for you if you dare answer and explain the above. This is the third time I ask you and all I get back is basically a super pissed forum member with no substance in his answers which only contain frustration. Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean you answer back like you hate them. Just simply explain your ideas, that way we might all learn. I repeat, I dont claim there is nothing out there I can learn from people. So maybe I can learn from you, but you have to try and explain that lesson to me, instead of yelling at me like I just stole money from you or cursed your mother.
Relax and tell us what you know.
Off to the airport, I will talk to all of you next week.
Okay, I'm gonna try my best... okay? first of all, NO, we don't know each other... but YOU don't know Milos either... and for you to say that he's got a "hidden agenda"? Trust me on this... I know Milos... if he's got a hidden agenda... it would be in a much larger scale then... raving about machines (in his broken English)... he didn't bust his ass off in the gym competing in bodybuilding shows for years and dealing with all the politics of the "Weider" empire to get his pro card only to stoop that low with a "hidden agenda" like the one you're claiming...
I mentioned earlier that I agree with most everything Milos preaches... I don't necessarily agree that machines engage in more muscle fiber... BUT I do agree that machines can isolate better... How? (again, I'm NOT good with words...), most machines' resistance are one dimensional... right?, in other words... if you were to use a chest press machine.... there're no balancing involved... you just press and it only goes in one direction... (but I believe a company call "Cybex" does make machines with directional movements to give the sensation of free weights). With that said... no, you wouldn't "fire" as much muscle fiber... but since there're aren't any balancing... it will "hit" only part of the muscle, BUT it's direct... thus "isolating" the muscle... does that make sense?
Why does Milos keep "backing" isolating is better than not? Again, you wouldn't understand... cause you haven't been "in" the (bodybuilding) scene... When it comes to bodybuilders... they are some of the most... meticulous people in the world... to themselves and to each other... you may have big chest... and they'll tell ya, but then say something like... "...your chest is growin' but you need to work on the lower pecs, try doin' more cable flyes..." I mean watch one of them contests on ESPN sometimes... you'll know what I'm what I'm talkin' about. To most people ALL the contestants are just freakishly big... but they'll break it down to the nitty-gritty... and that's when knowing how to isolate becomes key in the world of competive bodybuilding...
most average joes go to the gym and do excercises just because its' what they know, but they don't understand "angles", and how to isolate... for some people, it's not important, but to others it is...
Last edited by is300eater; 10-14-2005 at 12:22 PM.
10-16-2005, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by is300eater
Okay, I'm gonna try my best... okay? first of all, NO, we don't know each other... but YOU don't know Milos either... and for you to say that he's got a "hidden agenda"? Trust me on this... I know Milos... if he's got a hidden agenda... it would be in a much larger scale then... raving about machines (in his broken English)... he didn't bust his ass off in the gym competing in bodybuilding shows for years and dealing with all the politics of the "Weider" empire to get his pro card only to stoop that low with a "hidden agenda" like the one you're claiming...
I mentioned earlier that I agree with most everything Milos preaches... I don't necessarily agree that machines engage in more muscle fiber... BUT I do agree that machines can isolate better... How? (again, I'm NOT good with words...), most machines' resistance are one dimensional... right?, in other words... if you were to use a chest press machine.... there're no balancing involved... you just press and it only goes in one direction... (but I believe a company call "Cybex" does make machines with directional movements to give the sensation of free weights). With that said... no, you wouldn't "fire" as much muscle fiber... but since there're aren't any balancing... it will "hit" only part of the muscle, BUT it's direct... thus "isolating" the muscle... does that make sense?
Why does Milos keep "backing" isolating is better than not? Again, you wouldn't understand... cause you haven't been "in" the (bodybuilding) scene... When it comes to bodybuilders... they are some of the most... meticulous people in the world... to themselves and to each other... you may have big chest... and they'll tell ya, but then say something like... "...your chest is growin' but you need to work on the lower pecs, try doin' more cable flyes..." I mean watch one of them contests on ESPN sometimes... you'll know what I'm what I'm talkin' about. To most people ALL the contestants are just freakishly big... but they'll break it down to the nitty-gritty... and that's when knowing how to isolate becomes key in the world of competive bodybuilding...
most average joes go to the gym and do excercises just because its' what they know, but they don't understand "angles", and how to isolate... for some people, it's not important, but to others it is...
I mentioned earlier that I agree with most everything Milos preaches... I don't necessarily agree that machines engage in more muscle fiber... BUT I do agree that machines can isolate better... How? (again, I'm NOT good with words...), most machines' resistance are one dimensional... right?, in other words... if you were to use a chest press machine.... there're no balancing involved... you just press and it only goes in one direction... (but I believe a company call "Cybex" does make machines with directional movements to give the sensation of free weights). With that said... no, you wouldn't "fire" as much muscle fiber... but since there're aren't any balancing... it will "hit" only part of the muscle, BUT it's direct... thus "isolating" the muscle... does that make sense?
Why does Milos keep "backing" isolating is better than not? Again, you wouldn't understand... cause you haven't been "in" the (bodybuilding) scene... When it comes to bodybuilders... they are some of the most... meticulous people in the world... to themselves and to each other... you may have big chest... and they'll tell ya, but then say something like... "...your chest is growin' but you need to work on the lower pecs, try doin' more cable flyes..." I mean watch one of them contests on ESPN sometimes... you'll know what I'm what I'm talkin' about. To most people ALL the contestants are just freakishly big... but they'll break it down to the nitty-gritty... and that's when knowing how to isolate becomes key in the world of competive bodybuilding...
most average joes go to the gym and do excercises just because its' what they know, but they don't understand "angles", and how to isolate... for some people, it's not important, but to others it is...
Isolation can be good for a pro bodybuilder who's close to competition day and he is now looking meticoulesly, as you very correctly stated, at his weaknesses. But the type of isolation you claim must be different from the one I am referring to.
What I say is this: When a bodybuilder (BB for short from now on) needs more lower chest, to use your example, so his overall chest looks better, then instead of doing cables, he should either start with (most probably weighted) dips (at the appropriate angle) and/or decline barbell free bench pressing. You could add cables, or a machine like the one you described above, but either only as a third exercise or not at all.
(now watch my Q&A to justify the above, watch my "whys" and the answers which to me make sense, they're not just proven with research, but they make sense to people that "are not PhD people")
Why?
Because isolation does not grow musle as quickly as compound training does.
Why?
Because muscle grows the FASTEST (when talking only about stimulation) when overload and intensity are at their maximum.
Why?
I could go on here, but I am sure you know the answer to the above to a certain extend, if not full extend.
So, to sum up: What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with ISOLATING A BODY SEGMENT and say, I need more work here, as a BB. But in order to GET THERE FASTER (to reach that goal quiciker), ISOLATION TYPE OF EXERCISES AND EQUIPEMENT IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. Free weighted, compound exercises is (the way to do it).
Do you see the different type of approach I have to isolation? I am talking about body segment isolation, you and Milos, are talking about methods (or equipment) of isolation training which will work, but not as fast and not to the extend compound exercises (with free weights and usually the barbell) will.
Go ahead and tell me what you think about the above.
10-17-2005, 09:37 PM
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Not bad of a video. Its nice to know how to focus on specific areas of the chest without leaving the flat bench. I think I need to work on my inner chest some more so I'll bring my hands closer together.
10-18-2005, 12:34 AM
#66
I shoot people
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by gavriil
OK great, at least now we're discussing about the matter. Thanks for the response. Here is mine to yours:
Isolation can be good for a pro bodybuilder who's close to competition day and he is now looking meticoulesly, as you very correctly stated, at his weaknesses. But the type of isolation you claim must be different from the one I am referring to.
What I say is this: When a bodybuilder (BB for short from now on) needs more lower chest, to use your example, so his overall chest looks better, then instead of doing cables, he should either start with (most probably weighted) dips (at the appropriate angle) and/or decline barbell free bench pressing. You could add cables, or a machine like the one you described above, but either only as a third exercise or not at all.
(now watch my Q&A to justify the above, watch my "whys" and the answers which to me make sense, they're not just proven with research, but they make sense to people that "are not PhD people")
Why?
Because isolation does not grow musle as quickly as compound training does.
Why?
Because muscle grows the FASTEST (when talking only about stimulation) when overload and intensity are at their maximum.
Why?
I could go on here, but I am sure you know the answer to the above to a certain extend, if not full extend.
So, to sum up: What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with ISOLATING A BODY SEGMENT and say, I need more work here, as a BB. But in order to GET THERE FASTER (to reach that goal quiciker), ISOLATION TYPE OF EXERCISES AND EQUIPEMENT IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. Free weighted, compound exercises is (the way to do it).
Do you see the different type of approach I have to isolation? I am talking about body segment isolation, you and Milos, are talking about methods (or equipment) of isolation training which will work, but not as fast and not to the extend compound exercises (with free weights and usually the barbell) will.
Go ahead and tell me what you think about the above.
Isolation can be good for a pro bodybuilder who's close to competition day and he is now looking meticoulesly, as you very correctly stated, at his weaknesses. But the type of isolation you claim must be different from the one I am referring to.
What I say is this: When a bodybuilder (BB for short from now on) needs more lower chest, to use your example, so his overall chest looks better, then instead of doing cables, he should either start with (most probably weighted) dips (at the appropriate angle) and/or decline barbell free bench pressing. You could add cables, or a machine like the one you described above, but either only as a third exercise or not at all.
(now watch my Q&A to justify the above, watch my "whys" and the answers which to me make sense, they're not just proven with research, but they make sense to people that "are not PhD people")
Why?
Because isolation does not grow musle as quickly as compound training does.
Why?
Because muscle grows the FASTEST (when talking only about stimulation) when overload and intensity are at their maximum.
Why?
I could go on here, but I am sure you know the answer to the above to a certain extend, if not full extend.
So, to sum up: What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with ISOLATING A BODY SEGMENT and say, I need more work here, as a BB. But in order to GET THERE FASTER (to reach that goal quiciker), ISOLATION TYPE OF EXERCISES AND EQUIPEMENT IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. Free weighted, compound exercises is (the way to do it).
Do you see the different type of approach I have to isolation? I am talking about body segment isolation, you and Milos, are talking about methods (or equipment) of isolation training which will work, but not as fast and not to the extend compound exercises (with free weights and usually the barbell) will.
Go ahead and tell me what you think about the above.
ya, know what dude? I'm done with this... apparently I don't know what da hell I'm doing... you're right...
10-18-2005, 08:05 AM
#67
Outnumbered at home
Originally Posted by is300eater
ya, know what dude? I'm done with this... apparently I don't know what da hell I'm doing... you're right...
wow touchy. seemed like a simple discussion to me
10-18-2005, 08:33 AM
#68
I
I think all gavriil is trying to say is, you will see result both ways, but you'll see faster results with free weights. That doesn't mean that using machines is "wrong", just not as effective.
10-18-2005, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by is300eater
ya, know what dude? I'm done with this... apparently I don't know what da hell I'm doing... you're right...
I never said you dont know what you're doing and I also said that it is very probable that I am wrong.
Obviously you are having a problem with discussing your knowledge and opinions in a civilized and coherent manner. Which of course raises the possibility that you might not know what you're doing after all. But then again, that's just my opinion...once again.
10-18-2005, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by FastAcura
I think all gavriil is trying to say is, you will see result both ways, but you'll see faster results with free weights. That doesn't mean that using machines is "wrong", just not as effective.
Yes, that's what I am trying to say.
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