jim_c

If you are a do it yourselfer with basic tools and if you are conscientious and meticulous you can make your disc brake parts last a long time and you can avoid paying high prices for needless repairs. I am going to try to post a pic to get started and then I'll add discussion as we go. I will try to mention all the details that the youtube videos overlook!


Site says my pic is too large. I'll have to resize apparently.
Later.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

You can host your pics on imgur and just link them here. Just make sure you login so it doesn't just disappear someday.

Tonyware

I use postimage.org. It has an option to resize 640x480 for message boards.

jim_c

Thanks guys. I'll do that, but not tonight. Later.

mylove4cars

Resize takes two minutes in Photoshop, menu, image, image size (Constrain proportions -example width 900 if your original is bigger); than go to file and save as for web (jpeg medium) done.

jim_c

Off topic slightly. I think I got the hang of this downsizing thingy.

jim_c

The pic shows a wheel off my 99 integra.
If you click on the pic it will come up bigger.
Wheel is 13 yo in the pic, tire is 6 yo.
Look after your sh*t.
Now I'll see if I can get some good brake pics.

jim_c

Getting started

jim_c

I'm going to post some pics and then ramble on about details.
This is just simple.
I assume you know how to remove wheels safely and you can watch basic videos on how to change parts on you tube. You might think I'm pedantic. Didactic even. Or worse, lol.
I keep a johnson bar and the proper socket in my trunk at all times.
Johnson bar is perfect length for torqueing wheel nuts, maybe 18".
I sometimes use a torque wrench but after doing wheels a few thousand times I can feel the right degree of tightness. Never use a gun on wheel nuts.
...to be continued (tbc)

jim_c

rear rotor

jim_c

This pic shows a rotor of the rear.
The TL has the disc "drum" design where the inner drum is used for the braking surface for the emergency brake shoes. This is one area where the Japanese cars are excellent. You almost never have any issues with the emergency brake. The shoes should last for the life of the car.
They only hold the car stationary so they should not wear. But you need to keep the rust from getting in the way. I clean the rotors as thoroughly as I can with a wire brush and emery cloth. The one in the pic is 4 years old (off my TL) and has 75,000 km. I take them off the car and clean them every two years. I sand the surfaces with coarse emery paper to break any glaze. Make sure it's as clean as possible before you reinstall and don't get any grease or dirt on it.

jim_c

My old impact driver is great for removing those little screws in the rotors on Hondas and Acura.

jim_c

This is out of order but you need to remove those little pita screws to get the rotors off. I have heard various explanations for why they are there but one thing no one mentions is that the rotors can only be installed in one position due to these screws. They are placed so you always get the holes in the rotor over the same studs when you install a rotor. Maybe Honda balances the hubs and the rotors? I don't really think that's it....... Anyway, you can use an impact driver like this if you are lucky enough to own one. Just give a rap with the hammer and the screw is loose. BUT that reminds me....NEVER use a hammer to whack away at your rotors or other brake parts. The sensors for the ABS and the VSA are in the hubs and they are expensive to replace!
If you have trouble removing a rotor, take your time. There are two threaded holes in each rotor and you can thread (metric) bolts through there to force the rotor off. When I got my (used) car it took me 2 hours to get the rotors off because they were rusted to the hubs. That was two years ago. Car was just over two years old. This spring I took them off again in seconds. After you clean the rotors and the hubs, rub a smear of anti seize compound around the surfaces where the hub and rotor are almost in contact. The hubs fit very tightly into the rotors. Anti seize is sometimes coppery or sometimes silvery but it's good stuff. Don't over-do it.

jim_c

More pics, not in order but you can figure it out.

jim_c

This pic shows the rear setup with the rotors off and the calipers out of the way. You can see the shoes for the emerg brake. What you need to do is to expand the shoes by turning the little star wheel. Test it so the rotor is snug going over the shoes. You want the shoes expanded so the rotor will just go on. If the shoes are "tight" enough the pull handle at the console will be quite tight. There is a method to adjust the handle but I have never had to do that. You would only do that if the cable got stretched. Do you know to always apply the brakes with the brake pedal as you pull up the emergency brake handle? (It's actually not crucial on this design but on some cars (Integra) they use the regular pads as the emergency brake. TL is a better system.

jim_c

That last pic also show the "holes" where the caliper bracket is mounted.
The bracket is not shown in this pic but I'll get to that.
Those mating surfaces must be clean clean clean. Some mfrs call the bracket a torque plate. It's the part that the calipers mount to and it holds the pads. Just clean it, maybe paint it when it's off the car.
See pics below also.

Tonyware

My theory for the "little pita screws" is they are there from the factory assembly line so that the rotor won't fall off on someone's head before the caliper gets bolted on there. No need to buy new ones if you mess them up while trying to get them out. I usually use a screw extractor.

Nice pics. Carry on!

jim_c

The pad holder (caliper bracket) has two pieces of hardware that are very important where the small tabs on the pads actually sit. Hope you can see what I mean in this pic.

jim_c

That last pic shows a rear bracket sitting on a wooden bench. The caliper mounting pins are sticking out but as you know they sit inside slots in the bracket. This is critical to understand. The pins must be lubricated with special caliper lube and they must be free to move in and out of the bracket. You have to pull them out past the little rubber dust boots to lube them. Sometimes when you buy pads you get a little packet of grease. Use it. When you have the bracket off the car the pins can be pushed in and out of the bracket. BUT that's not what happens in real use on the road. When the parts are assembled (reinstalled) the bracket is bolted to an ear off the hub or the steering knuckle (shown above). The bracket is stationary. I didn't show the bolts but you had to take them out to get that bracket off and you had to take that bracket off to get the rotors off. I think it's a 19mm wrench for those fat little bolts. I only every use a 6 point box wrench by the way, but you could use a socket.
The bracket is stationary but the pins move in and out as the brakes are applied and released. So they must be able to move for the system to function properly. Stay with me.

jim_c

I'm getting to that.
But go back and look at the pic of the caliper bracket again.
There are two little "holders" made out of spring steel and they just sit on the bracket at each end. These must be clean and free of rust/corrosion/dirt. They hold the pads and stop them from rattling. The pads are actually just sitting there "loose" when the system is assembled correctly. The pads rest against those spring steel guys and they must be free to move. The pads move "sideways" (in and out) as the brakes are applied and released. If they are cocked or rusted or seized in the holder they will wear out very quickly and they will not wear evenly. Both pads should wear evenly but you often see a set where one pad is worn down much more than the other. This means that the pads were stuck or the caliper was stuck.

jim_c

I use a wire brush to clean the spring steel "pad retainers". The pic looks funny because the one side of the bracket is the same colour as the bench. When I assemble the brakes I put a bit of caliper lube on the tips of the pads and the surfaces they rub on. You can use anti seize too. Please note. You should test any new pads in the holders before you go back to put them on the car. The pads must be free to move/slide sideways in operation but I have often seen new pads that were too long or had a rough edge on the end. You have to clean that off by sanding it or grinding it very gently. That's happened to me on my TL and on my friend's Lexus. So test that as you go through the process.

jim_c

Pic

jim_c

This pic shows the front pads in the bracket with the caliper out of the way. There are almost always shims on all the pads. These should always be used. Some techs glue them in place with rtv (silicone). Their purpose is to prevent squealing.

jim_c

TL has a dual piston floating caliper on front, single piston on rears.

jim_c

This pic shows the front caliper. btw, my TL is fwd only, not sure if the awd cars are the same; I think they are.
The caliper is just resting on the rotor but you should place it carefully or string it up out of the way as you work on the pads. Don't kink the brake hose and don't twist it. If you are just servicing and re-using pads the pistons can stay where they are. If you are replacing with new pads you will need to push the pistons back into their bores in the caliper. As you do that brake fluid will be pushed backwards into the master cylinder reservoir so keep an eye on that. You can buy a piston pusher for a few bucks which is money well spent or you can just use a c-clamp and a brake pad to push the pistons in. The rubber boots you can see must be re-folded and they should be wiped clean. The piston outer surfaces that touch the pads should be cleaned if they are rusty.
I have never rebuilt a caliper and I have had vehicles with disc brakes for about 30 years. But look for leaks. Also I almost never have to bleed the brakes when doing regular servicing of pads and rotors.

jim_c

The floating caliper design is such that the calipers actually "float" on those pins that are in the brackets when everything is assembled back properly. Keep in mind what all those parts look like. When you apply the brakes, the pistons travel a short distance out of the caliper and press against the inner pad which then presses on the rotor. But the caliper is held in place - how? The caliper is actually bolted to the pins. Those pins (not sure if you can see it in the pics above) have threaded holes in the ends. When you put the caliper back on the car you used two small bolts (14 mm wrench I think) which hold the caliper to the pins. But the pins can move in and out of the brackets as discussed above. So when the brakes are applied the pistons move out of the caliper, and the caliper body moves in the opposite direction ("inward"). The caliper then pulls the outer pad against the rotor. So both pads move a tiny bit to squeeze against the rotor and slow it and stop it. The pads should only have to move a few thousanths of an inch but they must be free to move and the caliper must be free to move. When you release the brake pressure, the seals on the pistons flex and return the pistons and the caliper to the rest position. This is why it so important to have all the moving parts lubed and free, not stuck or seized. The seals are inside the bore, I'm not referring to the dust boots.

jim_c

So if everything works as intended both pads - inner and outer will wear evenly. To keep this happening you must disassemble and clean and lube all the parts regularly.

jim_c

I did not mention the wear indicators which are usually on the inner pads. If the inner pad wears excessively it means that it was doing most of the work and the caliper was stuck or the outer pad was frozen. If the inner pad wears down far enough that little prong will contact the rotor and make a hell of a screeching noise. If that happens you have been neglecting your maintenance! If you let the pads wear far enough you may get metal to metal with the pads scoring the rotors. A very bad thing. If the pads are dragging or seized or the caliper is seized then you will get lots of brake dust on your wheels and you will get a lot of excess heat from the constant friction. If your rotors are blue it means they were overheated by a malfunctioning system. Try this test: drive at highway speed for several miles but don't use the brakes if possible. Stop in a safe place and feel the wheels and the rotors with your bare hand. You should be able to touch and not burn your hand after a very short rest period, maybe a minute or two. I have often done this after driving at 75 mph on the interstate. No problem. If your brakes are too hot when you stop the car, you need to service the moving parts!

jim_c

I will stop here! Sorry if I mixed you up by jumping around.
I'm just writing this off the top of my head. Any questions or clarifications, ask away. I know I left out lots of little detail about the basics of getting everything apart and back together but if you take your time you can do a better job than you will ever get when you are paying $100 an hour to someone who's in a hurry.

jim_c

Off topic!

arek1200

I just removed the rotors to clean them up and lube all moving parts....those small flat head screws are a major pain in the butt to remove....got lucky with 2 but the other two I had to drill out and remove with the extractor.....how much torque are they applying on them at the factory!!!!!????

C8N

^ Surprisingly, torque spec on those screws are only 7.2ft lbs according to the SM.

However, it's probably due to the rusting, all the brake dust and such that makes it difficult to remove.
You might want to put a dab of anti seize on them to make things a bit easier in the future.

jim_c

Hi Tony. I have heard that reason for the screws in the rotors and that may be the reason but if so why does nobody else do it that way. E.g Toyota rotors will just wiggle around loose when you remove the wheel nuts. Another reason I have contemplated is that the screws allow you to get the rotor flat against the hub before you start putting a lot of pressure on it with the wheel nuts. If you tighten the wheel nuts carelessly on a Camry (e.g.) you can get the wheel and the rotor cocked. Hope you found my commentary of some interest. C8N, yes, I had to drill mine out when I got my TL since even the impact driver did not work. Sometimes the screws are brass and sometimes they're aluminum. Different metals in contact will always lead to a chemical reaction (galvanic action, I think it's called.) The screws should be torqued snug plus a bit with a large Phillips. How's that for technical guidance? If you service them regularly, they will not be a problem.

jim_c

I'll just add a bit more and then I'll shut up, lol.
You can re-use pads so long as they are in good shape and can be cleaned up. That means they have to have integrity (not be chipped or disintegrating) and they have to have flat parallel surfaces. If the pad is wedge shaped it should bot be used. You can break the glaze with emery cloth or regular sandpaper. You can clean off the rust with a wire brush or wire wheel on a grinder. Clean out all the brake dust from the slot in the middle of the pad. Look for any hard spots or imperfections if your rotors are scored. On my Integra I used 2 sets of front pads and the original rotors for 225,000 km. I'm not boasting, just trying to convince you to do your maintenance!

omgitsspooky

jim_c, can I use my Ryobi impact driver to attempt to remove the screws holding the rotors?

jim_c

Sorry, I just saw this question. Give it a try (if you have not already). The worst that will happen is you may mess up the heads of the screws.
These little screws are soft metal so they can be easily drilled out. Just drill the head with a metal drill bit until the head of the screw is gone. Then replace the screw with a new one available for cheap at the dealer.

jim_c

UPDATE!
Recently replaced the front brake pads on our 2010 TL.
The ones I discarded were the originals with 107,000 km on them.
New ones are Acura parts.
The originals actually had 30-40% lining left and still looked fine but I had the new ones so I did the exchange.
I don't like to see the pistons too far out of their (caliper) bores so better to have pads with lots of lining, i.e. new.
Rotors are originals, still look excellent.
Jim

jim_c

Pics: My 2010 bone stock TL with 120,000 km (75,000 mi.) Also pic of brake rotor. This is original Acura disc. People who say Honda/Acura brakes are crap are not reliable witnesses.
Brakes when maintained correctly will provide many many miles of service. Although yes, I know, there are some parts that get installed by all manufacturers that are defective from day one.

Tonyware

Mine were down to ~20% at around 140k km, 2 years ago, so I replaced them with stoptech ones (see forum dealer here). I got the street ones, so far so good, quiet and no dust to be seen anywhere. The rotors are still holding on LOL, thickness is down but still within spec. A little bumpy to the touch, but still ok. Planning to throw on the stop tech rotors too sometime this summer (not the drilled or slotted, just the regular ones). I have been told its a good idea to paint the hubs before you install those stop tech ones because they tend to rust. Other than that all is good. If you have time you may want to change to stainless steel lines. The ones from xlerate are pretty good. 3 canadian winters later and they look new. Stopping performance doesn't improve, but you feel the brakes byte harder and sooner.

PS I had a lot of success removing those little screws with "GraBit Damaged Screw Remover" (look it up at Canadian Tire) in my past honda products... you just need a good 14v and above power drill with charged battery. I haven't tried that on the TL yet but these screws are the same across all honda products.

TheMuffinMan

iTrader: (1)

Ehhh, it depends a lot on the car.

My '03 Pilot would tear through rotors (warp them) and that's using only OEM parts. Just a known issue with them. Same with the Odyssey my parents had.