saturno_v

Some while ago I decided to "withdraw" from the Acurazine site because the overly hostile "Acura bashing" environment where if you mention facts you are labeled as fanboy....however this is too good to pass up (I pondered few days...post or not to post...)


An out of this world absurd comparison between the TL SH-AWD and the......drumroll.......Porsche Panamera 3.6 4 recently tested by Car & Driver.....nonsense you may say...you may be right but let''s get a closer look......

I stick to the facts and I will refrain from making comments...

Let's begin with the obvious fact that the German supersedan in its base configuration costs double than a fully loaded TL SH-AWD and it is really only a 4 seater.

The two are pretty much identical in dimension and the Porsche is supposedly littered with lightweight exotic materials...however the Panamera stated weight is close to 300 pounds heavier than the Acura (3873 for the TL, 4153 for the Panamera)

As per own C&D test numbers for both cars:

0-60 time
5,2 for the TL SH-AWD 6 speed manual
5,0 for the Panamera

Zero to 100 mph
13,5 for the Acura
14,2 for the Porsche

Standing 1/4 mile
13,8 for both

The Panamera had monstruous summer tires (255 front, 295 at the back) versus all-season 245 rubber for the Acura in the test.
In addition to that, the Stuttgart sedan has a supposedly faster gearbox with its 7 speed Dual Clutch and Launch Control...furthermore the Porsche has more weight and traction bias on the rear versus the "inferior" FWD derived architecture of the TL.

Skidpad and braking

Here the summer, larger rubber of the Panamera pull a little bit ahead, however, luckily, we had a C&D test on the Acura SH-AWD Automatic with the optional HPT tfactory option on it (still just 245 in size for front and back)

Braking 70-0
Acura TL 161 feet
Panamera 158 feet

Skidpad
Acura TL 0.93g
Panamera 0.96g

C&D call the Porsche numbers "impressive"...maybe... Frankly from these simple hard cold numbers not so much....is the Panamera 3.6 4 really worth double the price of an Acura TL SH-AWD?? Well, that's entirely subjective and beyond the point....

C&D Panamera 3.6 4 test

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

C&D Acura TL SH-AWD manual test

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

C&D Acura TL SH-AWD HPT test

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...-awd-road_test


It would be interesting to read your comments on it...

Regards

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

first of all this website is actually pretty tame as far as the bashing's go


then second, i am figuring not, but was that the TURBO Panamera or just the base one... (cause is't the SH-AWD the top of the line as far as the TL goes; aka : the biggest motor available in the TL )

also kinda hard personally to compare a manual and an automatic car (even the DSG's boxes still soak up quite a bit of power compared to a manual transmission



edit: yeah it's the base V6 panamera, but still considering the price difference, not really worth it other then the exclusivity of it being a Porsche

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

And no, you can't compare them. I'm sure an Equus floors a Phantom when you compare them on paper too.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and personally this engine bat is screaming for at least a V8 in there with all the open space to the front of the engine

saturno_v

I totally agree...the Panamera 3.6 does not make any sense to me....with 14K more (you are already spenging 80K) you can get the 4 S with a much more appropriate engine in that class.....9K more get you a S 2wd...

saturno_v

This was a purely number comparo...

saturno_v

A dual clutch transmission is not the same as an automatic gearbox with a classic torque converter...as far as I know the DSG doesn;t soak up any extra power and it should be actually faster than a manual...

Aman

Clutches and selector forks don't move on their own. I'm sure even automated-manuals take a nice bit of power to run. Probably a lot less than an automatic transmission, though.

What exactly was the point of this comparison?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

but you probably could look at it this way too, whatever additional power the DSG does soak up, is made up in the quicker shifts


and another advantage is being able to dump that clutch for getting off of the line with the manual





also the additional weight of the Panamera mentioned, i bet a good 75-100 lbs of that is just in the tranny also, if not more (when i converted my car to manual from auto, it dropped something like 200 lbs off the car, yes that is with putting in a light weight flywheel and such, but most of it was tranny though)


ps: even though i love honda/acura, i much rather have the porsche driving like the autobahn over a TL; come you know damn well that porsche designed it to cruise at triple digit speeds with ease (and also where good aerodynamics, will start "shining")
alot of german cars ride very stiff, but once you get some speed going; they smooth right out

as said kinda, if you are able to afford that type of car, a little extra is not going to hurt your bank account


btw if you go to porsche's website and "Build your own Panamera", you can get it up over 200k quite easily when you start adding all the bells and whistles

jspagna1

I've only seen 2 of those here in CT.
One in a nearby town known to have to many dam rich people.
One other guy drives his kid to the same Public High School that my daughter goes to.
I guess he has his priorities in order! Me,Me,Me,Me.........

Mr Marco

Welcome back Saturno-v. Those C&D stories make me wish we had waited for the 6-speed. Thanks for the post.

MyT6MT

You really don't get the point of the comparison?

It's simple! Price to performance ratio! I find the comparison interesting and understand the post. I will try and find one (there are a lot of them on Long Island) and see if I can bait them into a little race and see what happens.

saturno_v

I forgot to mention...in the test the Porsche is just a bit noisier...

They are actuated by purely electrical devices or electrohydraulic actuators, the power robbing is negligible, much less than a power steering unit to make an example.

A gentle reminded and to offer a moment of reflexion for the ones that are so upset about how bad Acura is......a car that can performance wise (including dynamically) match another vehicle of the same size, belonging to the same functional class (both large sport sedans) costing double the price.....so maybe the TL is underpriced and the Porsche is way overpriced....who knows...


Make sure you do not run into an S or a Turbo and make a fool of yourself...ehehe LOL....

The stated weight difference between the manual TL SH-AWD and the automatic TL SH-AWD is 14 pounds.

While I do not have the official Drag Coefficient number for the new TL, the third generation TL had 0.29...the Porsche Panamera has 0.30 (0.29 for the Turbo), an Hyundai Genesis stands at 0.27 (the lower the number go, means the better)...I speculate that the new TL is in the same ballpark....

jspagna1

It looks like a heavy car up close. Not sure what the attraction is? If I had money like that to spend,I would get a real Porsche as someone mentioned in an earlier post.

Glashub

I found it useful too although I have to admit that if I had that kind of dough I'd be driving the Porsche 8 cyl. Just being real here. The interior looks gorgeous btw.

muggs

The link that saturno_v posted and this one, http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html are the two articles that
sold me absolutely on the six speed.The Edmund's article is compelling! It's being built around Dec. 15th. Pain to wait for it.

PsychDoc

Talk about a car that looks like dog shit?

Then the Panamerica is your car.

The AMC Pacer was a nicer looking vehicle.

And people have the audacity to knock the TL???

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

they may have the same amount of drag, but the question is, is the drag created going to make more downforce, or is it lifting the car up, or just plain old like hitting a brick wall (air just gets pushed out of the way)

and personally the Porsche seems alot more aerodynamic and slipperier in the air, but adds the drag right back in, with underbody effect's and creating additional down force

and the down force helps with making it a very stable ride at higher speeds

Aman

It's almost impossible to do a performance dollar comparison on any car though. More money does not equal more performance, as performance is only one part of any car. The exterior and interior of the car aren't free, you know

I think those that are complaining about Acura are complaining about Honda the company as a whole. They've killed off almost all of their best cars (NSX, S2K, Integra/RSX, Element if you're into that kind of thing), or let many of them stale in the marketplace until they're insignificant(aformentioned NSX, S2K and Element, as well as the RL). Their new design language isn't as widely favored as before though, but that's subjective.

In fact, the TL and TSX are probably the best products coming out of HMC right now. Nobody was complaining about the car's performance. I think the two biggest gripes were their looks (again, subjective), and centre console (too many buttons).

I'd have to argue on your price point. Like I said before, price isn't directly related to performance. I don't have the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that a WRX could beat or match those numbers, but something like an Escalade wouldn't.

Saying that the TL can match the Panamera at half its price doesn't mean the TL is better, or as good. It just means the Panamera is better in other areas. Not having driven both cars, I can't say for sure, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of it is in the subjective or unquantifiable areas.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

I agree with the good doctor! It's nice to see the TL really didn't do too bad, compared to a Porsche Panamera.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

easily (let alone being very easily moddable, on the relatively cheap)

and iirc, 1/4 is slightly faster too then said cars; but part of what you are getting with said cars is LUXURY though, the WRX is not exactly the quietest car, especially the 09's when the dash board is cold, it creaks like no other (but once it warms up, it quiets down)

Aman

Well that's my point. You can't compare price to performance, because there are so many things factored into the price. I bet the Panamera doesn't have a creaking dash.

Litt

The wrx sti is way fast and cheap. I guess it is better than the porsche or the TL.

saturno_v

It is all speculation because we do not have the numbers to establish which one exert more downforce than the others...the only numbers I can pull out is the drag coefficient and the two cars are basically equal on that figure.

There are lot of cars that are apparently very aerodynamic but when you test them on a wind tunnel they are not....so it all comes down to numbers and measurement.

saturno_v

A WRX STI is a small rally tuned hatchback, loud and with a very stiff ride, an Escalade is an enormous SUV...they are not comparable...the Panamera and the TL are identical in size, engine displacement and in overall category (large sport sedans) so they are much more comparable, brand and luxury perception differences notwithstanding

Absolutely right

Very possible I'm sure but performance is not one of them.

Exactly right. The WRX STI is not comparable to a TL or, let alone, a Panamera in any other area than some straight numeric performances (mainly acceleration and handling because the top end is not that fast...it is not designed for that)

As said more than once, the comparison with the WRX STI is totally meaningless, completely different vehicle category.

And nobody said that the TL is better than the Panamera 3.6

How many TL do you know that have a creaking dash?? Do you know for a fact that no Panamera have a creaking dash?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Now I thought Saturno said this was just a numbers comparison. Seems like we've deviated and are actually comparing the cars now (I knew it would happen ).

As someone else said, the STI is faster and cheaper than the TL so it's obviously superior to the TL. It goes STI > TL > Panamera.

Right?

saturno_v

No is not right...it is a number comparison between comparable vehicles (size, comparable engines and functional category)
Otherwise we can say that a sportbike smokes everybody else numeric performance wise and it is even cheaper than an STI......

Aman

Just because cars are equally big and have similar engine sizes, doesn't mean they're comparable. Would you compare a Mustang GT to a Maserati GranTurismo?

Please don't say yes.



You're just rephrasing what I said



Well the TL isn't designed for a high top-end either. I'm willing to bet the Panamera is, though. Would I be right in saying it has a considerably higher top speed?

Basically what I'm saying is that the TL is to the Panamera what the WRX is to the TL.



Isn't this what you're trying to prove in this thread?




How many TL do you know that have a creaking dash?? Do you know for a fact that no Panamera have a creaking dash?[/QUOTE]

When did I say the TL had a creaking dash? Friesm said that cold WRXs had a problem with that. Why? Because they're cheaper. And then I said I bet the Panamera doesn't have a creaking dash. Meaning I don't think it does.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Now you guys have gotten into an actual comparison with topics like creaking dashes or whatever it is I saw when I glanced at the thread this morning.

But you're right. Update: Sportbike X > STI > TL > Panamera

Aman

saturno_v

Of course not and if you look at it, there are many more differences between a Granturismo and a Mustang GT than between a TL and a Panamera which, by the way, are obviously not comparable for market segmentation, obviously.

That is a speculation because we do not know how the TL behaves at high top end speed, there are not published tests for that. The TL is slower only because a very aggressive speed governor is in place.....the Panamera 3.6 is actually faster than a factory speed governed M5....does that means that the Panamera is a better top end performer?? Obviously not, we do not know that...simply BMW and Acura decided to place a speed governor on the M5 and the TL while Porsche did not, simple as that


No, the WRX STI is a much smaller car, very stiff ride, loud and specialized for rally competition...and, by the way, even if we absurdly throw it in the mix, if you play with the option configurator, a similarly equipped STI (you cannot actually match exactly a TL tech package with an STI), is not that much cheaper than a fully loaded TL...they are within 2-3k from each other......the same if you take them in their basic form (the cheapest TL SH-AWD and the cheapest STI....~ 3-4K of difference)


I'm not trying to prove anything....I just posted test numbers where the TL can match the performance of another similarly sized, same engine displacement sport sedan costing double in its basic trim compared to a fully loaded TL. I just posted the raw facts and left to other forum members to comment....I personally don't know the Panamera so I cannot say if it is better or not...the only obvious thing that we know is the more luxurious materials used for the finishing.


Sorry, I misunderstood that, I thought you were referring to the TL.....however even talking about the WRX, we do not know if that is a general probloem for the WRX or if it is just your friend.


And yes, you are quite right, the WRX STI finishing is significantly cheaper feeling than the TL...again for a much smaller car costing not that much less than a TL SH-AWD.

winstrolvtec

I think this is a good summation but more to Saturno's point is that the Porsche is $50k more while the TL SH is only $2k-$3k more than the comparable STI Limited and with the going rates they cost roughly the same.

This type of cost comparison of the TL is better suited against mid level sedans IMO as the Panamera is supposed to be a full sized competitor to the 7 series and S class type vehicles but the point is largely the same in either case. Welcome back Saturno.

saturno_v

"Supposed" is the key.....but as fact, the TL and the Panamera are identical in size with the TL having more internal space in some measurements (and 5 seats instead of 4).

Personally I think Porsche made a mistake creating a such "small" entry level Panamera trim with a 6 cylinder engine (the 7 Series and the S Class do not offer a sub 4 liter 6 cylinder option) because it "forces" a comparison with similarly sized, as much as technologically advanced, much more affordale alternatives...and I'm not talking about only the TL but the BMW 535i or the Audi A6 3.0 TFSI as well....

I do not see how people already forking 80K for a Panamera 3.6 cannot afford extra 15k to get a more proper S trim with its V8 engine...I suspect the 3.6 trim will attract people stretching their last dollar monthly budget just to put their butt on a Porsche....that engine, IMHO, does not make sense in car like the Panamera.

Porsche has a long tradition of proposing "entry level" cars that are outrageously expensive for what they are...think about 914, 924, Boxster 2.5/2.7, etc...

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

And compared to the Porsche the Acura rides much more stiffly, louder, and is far less luxurious. There is much less technology, much less prestige (for those to whom that matters), and so forth.

You can't play both sides of the field. As someone said, the STI is to the TL (harsher and less luxurious but comparable performance) what the TL is to the Panamera in your yes, VERY OUTRAGEOUS, comparison.

See, now as I said you turned a numbers comparison into a full blown comparison. I told you it would happen, and it has. That's why you don't make random topics on performance only with cars you can't compare. It's absolutely laughable to be that you call the STI comparison absurd when it's MUCH closer in price to the TL, yet the Panamera comparison is more worthwhile? I guess it takes all kinds.

No hard feelings, but you seem to be trying to play both sides of the fence here. Comparing the TL to a G37 or S4 would've been much more realistic because anyone can take a numbers game with a cheaper car. Who'd buy a 5-Series or E-Class over a Genesis then? What's the point of a Rolls or Bentley?

Aman

What exactly are these "many differences" between the Mustang and Maserati that don't exist between the TL and Panamera?

You realize that there's a reason that speed governors are in place. If the TL's governor is lower than the Panamera's, it's because the engineers realized it would be unsafe to exceed that speed.

If you raise the governor, you've got to get better tires and brakes, and suspension, redevelop the body of the car for improved aerodynamics, and driving characteristics.

So if the Panamera has a higher top speed than the TL, governed or not, it's because it probably has superior tires, brakes, suspension, body, etc. etc.

We really don't know anything, all this is speculation. But with respect, much of this thread is speculation because we haven't driven all 3 cars and came up with an objective decision. We don't really know that the Panamera's interior is better built with superior materials because (I'm guessing) we haven't sat in and analyzed both cars' interiors.




FTR, the WRX isn't specialized for rally competition. It's a sporty road car. It just happens to be a popular platform for rally cars. Aside from the side difference, the gap between the Subie and TL isn't any larger than the gap between the TL and Panamera.




In that case, is it safe to assume that the reason the Panamera supposedly costs double the TL's price is because it can, or because it truly is a superior car?



Sorry, I was talking about friesm2000, one of the posters on this thread

I was referring to the WRX, not the STi. I'm pretty sure the WRX is much less than the TL.

saturno_v

Actually if we stick to the facts and not impressions or "I think so" or "I heard so", the TL is actually a hair quieter than the Panamera.....read the C&D test sheet. As if the ride is stiffer or not, again is speculation on your part, not tested or proven.

About less technology...maye yes or maybe not...yes the Panamera has the dual clucth but the TL has the torque vectoring AWD and the Panamera doesn't....the base stereo system in the Panamera is inferior as are some of the other gadgets....you need to hit the option checkmarks hard to pull ahead in the Porsche....always keep in mind the double sticker price.

I'm not playing any field. The STI is way smaller, louder and stiffer than the TL, something I can definitely confirm..and the STI cost almost as much as the TL.


The comparison between the TL and the Panamera is rather absurd if you go with the sticker price....but if you look closer it becomes less absurd...that was exactly the point of my post....and yes the comparison between the WRX and the STI is still absurd....
An it is still a number comparison...but some posters argue with unsubstantiated facts and speculations....numbers are numbers...the two cars have identical performance, identical size, identical engine displacement, both AWD, same level of quietness, same room inside, same braking efficiency, comparable level of accessory (a little edge on the TL compared to a base Panamera) with one costing double than the other....all things proven and on paper...lets' stick to the facts.

People can buy whatever they want. We are talking about TL SH-AWD and a Panamera...le's not go off rail.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Except things like noise depend upon where and when it was tested among other things. According to that magazine as well, the S550 and Charger both are identically quiet at 65 dba. Are they actually the same in real life? Do you even have to ask?

Don't just open and close a book on such matters. You will walk away with maybes and half-truths.

The ride IS stiffer. Just like they can test for noise, they can test for vibrations and jitters that enter the cabin. If you really want to make the honest claim that you can't test that and that it cannot be tested or proven, you've got another thing coming. And I've ridden in a Panamera S RWD. Unless something's changed with the V-6 (it hasn't), it rides far better and quieter.

Now the only way you can reverse your comment is to change your tune and say that whether or not a stiffer ride is worse is subjective, because it is. Some people like a very connected, very taut ride. Great, however that does not mean it doesn't ride stiffly.

How in the world do you say it "maybe" has more technology, or not? The TL has nowhere near the laundry list of features that the Porsche has, nor the quality. Whether or not it's standard is irrelevant.

See, this is what happens when you spec-sheet compare cars that don't compare . . . .

Now I don't know where you get that the Porsche's audio system is worse. Isn't THAT subjective? If ride quality is subjective (and it isn't, but if I dignify that for you just for a moment), then audio systems ABSOLUTELY ARE as well. Like I said, both sides of the fence.

The STI starts at what, $33,000 or $34,000? That's a full $5,000 less than the TL. Oh, but we bring up the stiffness factor . . . . yet earlier that couldn't be proven.

Sorry, but it seems like you're the one with the most unsubstantiated speculations and facts, denying that it's even a fact that the TL doesn't have as much technology in it or that you can't prove smoother ride quality. Come on man.

saturno_v

A rear live axle and seriously subpar interiors and finishing for the Mustang are two good ones for a starter....and yes probably performance wise the two cars are extremely close and the price difference, albeit justified, is way excessive
...but I doubt you can slap around that live axle as easily around a track....


That is frankly not true, and again pure speculation. The stock M5 is limited to 150-155 mph, and is well known that it is an outstanding performer at much higher speed...same for other supersedans like the many almost 600 hp AMG Benz...limited to 150-155 when they use just a fraction of their power at that speed....the 335i is another good example.
Some models are sold with speed governors in US and unlimited in Europe or vice versa....it is all about a marketing choice for the manufacturer....I wish i could remove the speed governor on my TL and take it in Germany....probably some US serviceman did it already...

No is not because I just posted the recorded numbers....what has been tested so we can stick with that...

The WRX is not but the STI it is...and there are significant differences betweent the two....when I test drive the WRX sounded like a loud econobox with uninspiring stering and shifter...the STI is much more refind than that.

The WRX is cheaper but even less refined than the STI and less performance...

saturno_v

I rode in both but I frankly do not remember.

If you say so I believe you.

Never said that it cannot be tested..I just said that there are no public records of it on any magazines, so is speculation

I'm sure the Porche has some higher technology in some regards...maybe it comes as a shock for you but the base Panamera doesn't even come with heated front seats...the BOSE 500 W stereo is a 2000K option...I'm sorry if I have to fork the money it is relevant if it is standard or not.

No torque vectoring, no GPS linked climate system, no forged crankshafts....the TL has some aces up its sleeve, it can hold his own.

Sorry but if you compare the Panamera 3.6 standard equipment with the TL fully loaded, costing half, (never forget that) the TL comes out quite nicely....

Why don't you just check the specs for yourself instead wasting my time informing you??

The standard CDR-31 Panamera Sound systeam is a 100 Watt 10 speaker stereo system (not even 5.1) where the Bluetooth integration is optional.

Read for yourself, do your homework instead of arguing.

http://www.porsche.com/international...l/?gtabindex=5



The STI starts at 33,995, the TL SH-AWD at 38,855...already mentioned before why are you bringing it up?? 5K for a smaller car, less base accessories, more utilitarian finishing...fully justified price difference in my book.

I'm tempted to leave this site again and for good this time if people cannot just discuss facts....gosh even when someone slap in front of your eyes some nice test data your guys do not relent..what is wrong with you people?? why so much hate for Acura and the TL.....should not make you happy that Acura can match the performance of a car costing double the price?? Yes the Porsche will have some fine tech refinement but at a huge cost... What is it that is eating you inside folks?? Why hanging around if you do not think Acura are great cars?? Instead of saying "great good job Acura", being happy for the brand, you guys trying to take it down at every twist and turn..."yes but the Porsche must be so much better, and this and that......." My goodness is unbelievable...

saturno_v

More to the point....the second generation Type S had a governor limited top speed of 149 mph....do you think it was because it was "more safe" than the current TL SH-AWD?? The RL sold in Europe (as Honda Legend) has a governor limited top speed of 155 mph (250 km/h), the identical RL sold here is limited to 131 mph....do you think one is "safer" than the other?? As you can see for yourself the governor limited top speed argument you brought up is frankly a non issue.