winstrolvtec

Yes and I'm not pointing fingers but you're the one who insistently persists that Acura is a tier 2 brand, with 2nd rate luxury products compared to the so called tier 1's and it's by their own definition, yet when I agree and state the obvious that in being considered Tier 2, the brand would naturally get less status buys and people would be less inclined to ride the high horse relative to what they drive or own, at the same, you then disagree about what that says for not only Acura but also the other brands. You can't have it both ways.

You understand that less or in comparison to and IMO should have some meaning, just because it does not happen at all, means it can't be true? Again, the alleged tier 1 folks stick their noses in the air at the notion that Acura has equally compatible luxury products to so called tier 1 brands among comparable makes yet "they" are the snobs relative to Hyundai, etc? Just what do you think BMW, etc, owners/buyers have to say about the same notion? Give me the break.

Prove my point yet again, why is it a "reach"? I guess "deserve" in any case would be a matter of opinion but feel free to back it up with anything other than sticker price, unbased opinion, and sales, which again have nothing to do with the car. It's never been compared to an Accord? That's as ironic as it gets but god forbid it's mentioned next to a 5 series.

And no one specifically questioned your car choices or judgement, especially personally, so could that mean you have something to prove relative to these discussions or to Acurazine? Maybe it's the association to the assertion.

Honestly don't even care, most of this is going to boil down to difference of perspectives and opinions, agree to disagree, as at this point, it's the same story, different day, either way and it really is beating a dead horse.

g37guy01

Actually to clarify, it's not Kevin saying Acura is a tier 2 brand, he is reiterating that Acura thmselves say they are a tier 2 brand.

Edit: who cares what the "tier1" folks say? Do two wrongs make a right? Just look at the newest I got an A6 thread. Some congratz for sure, but a number of how's your bank account for the repairs?

Glashub

^^^

Please provide a link so we can read those comments from the source.

g37guy01

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=988

You can search the web for ceo Takanobu and draw your own conclusions.

JT4

Just to be clear I am not knocking anyone who purchases by brand instead of value, function whatever. I have always felt that people should buy what makess them happy regarless of what their reasoning is. After all it's your money to spend the way you want so who am I to tell anyone how to spend their money.

Besides I could actually be classified as one of these "brand buyers". I purchased an ML350 for the wife after owning two previous MDX's, liking them and wanting another.

I had no reason NOT to purchase another MDX besides my wife wanting a Benz. She had always liked the ML and although it may not have been my first choice she drives it 90% of the time. She is happy and loves her ML and that is all that matters.

And as they say, "Happy wife = Happy life".

Glashub

It appears you're correct but I'll probably drop down from my Tier 1 brand Lexus to the Tier 2 Acura TLX someday because -- well -- I like great value. I'd rather get 90% of a BMW and MB worthiness for 75% of the BMW price -- just picking numbers for the sake of argument.

And the fact is that 3 series is no longer the benchmark according to Motor Trend and others. It seems like their coming back to the pack as they try to broaden their market appeal. I'll never forget driving up to Cambria when a sleek 2013 MB E350 with blacked out windows slid by my humble Genesis. I truly felt humbled -- until the MB started blowing black smoke out of both tail pipes and it hurried over the side of the road.

I don't know -- it's anecdotal -- but I've seen too many German cars broken down here in LA to take the brands seriously as something I'd want to possess. I've never seen Acura, Lexus or Infiniti on the side of the road. Kind of like the universe talking to me, you know?

BEAR-AvHistory

Love antidotal stories because you can do so much with them. Here is mine for the day. First a general observation. I see M3’s, MB/AMG’s, Vettes etc. every day & 99% of the time we acknowledge each other & go on our way. Occasionally an older Vette or M3 will want to test his car.

Then there are the guys driving mommy vans & SUV’s. Nothing particular against SUV’s, have one, but its part of a pattern. They tend to push & shove, running very close to me, blow out of traffic lights & generally being a PIA.

On to the antidotal story. Was off to Red Box to pick up a movie & went the long was around on 540E off Six Forks, anyone from North Raleigh will know the area, with an MDX stuck to my rear bumper at 80mph. Road was clear & I was in the slow lane on the interstate so there was plenty of space to pass me. Signal for the Falls exit & the MDX follows me off & north on falls about 50mph. I signal to turn into the Harris Teeter supermarket with the suv still on my butt.

Tapped my brakes to prepare for the turn & went in pretty quickly. The MDX for whatever reason, maybe its SH-AWD, decided to stay on my bumper through the turn. Big mistake as he wound up in the out bound lane before he could correct. Luck was with him as the outer most of the out bound lanes was empty but I bet the driver on the curb lane had a cow when he saw the Acura coming at him.

Truth in driving, I have 2 size over 245X35X19 – 275X30X19 extreme performance summer tires which add a lot to my cornering power, but an SUV vs a coupe, Really?

Glashub

Kevin, that guy was crazy. I have nothing against the Germans other than the fact they ran my family out of Poland during WW2-- but that aside -- all's well that end's well -- America has been very, very good to me -- I think the 3 series is a beautiful car and I think the E350 is simply a home run.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree on the E series. Very nice cars. Seems like quite a few AMG's are coming in to the mix. MB's AMG is doing a better job than BMW's M division getting a good product into the market & Audi is pushing them both with the R series.

It will be interesting to see if Infiniti moves forward with their IPL group. The G37 IPL coupe was a bit under powred even though it was rated at 350BHP. I think the German horses are a bit bigger than the Japanese ones.

SeismicGuy

And the thing the Germans do well is to actually have some actual performance/mechanical difference once they add the initials unlike the Asians when adding the S to the TL was essentially just adding the letter S to the TL.

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^^
Whoa, that was a very very hot one on the 3G forums. My lawn mower had a bigger engine than the spread between a TL & TL-S.

Edward'TLS

Do Motor Trend and others mention that which car is now the new benchmark in it's class, displacing the 3-series ?

BEAR-AvHistory

I think they like Audi the best & C&D liked the Lexus F.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

g37guy01

Nobody told consumers the 3 series is no longer the benchmark, Oct sales. The newly dethroned 3 series just demolished the competition in terms of number of units. The C/CLA also did amazingly well. Whether one calls that "badge snobbery" is irrelevant. I think Infiniti has to be worried about Mercedes...look at the numbers.

- 3 and 4 series: 11,713
- TL: 1295
- ATS: 2782
- Q/G: 4683
- CLA: 4895 (c class: 6548) = 11,443
- A3/A4/A5: 4965
- IS: 3570

In other sales:
- 5 series vs E class: 5020 vs 6456
- CTS: 2073
- RL: 830
- MKZ: 2909



ref: www.goodcarbadcar.net

Edward'TLS

Shouldn't a benchmark vehicle be leading the vehicle-class in terms of sales number ?

Seems like the A3/4/5 and the IS are not quite there yet by a wide margin.

g37guy01

What consumers look for in a car, is different than what these magazine editors look for, imo.

A recommendation by CR, again imo, carries more weight than a benchmark stamp by any magazine.

Also as the website mentioned in its' disclaimer, there are virtually no A3s to sell, yet.

"Whoa, that was a very very hot one on the 3G forums. My lawn mower had a bigger engine than the spread between a TL & TL-S"
I got a real snicker out of this subtly worded comment.

BEAR-AvHistory

It sells magazines, last car to dump the 3 was the then new G-37 or G-35? coupe, can't remember which .

I thought all the objective points but one or two in the C&D article went to the 3 & it lost on points, 1 point, due to the subjective points going mainly to the F. That being said the F won so its C&D's choice. Can't complain when you get beat as long as you were in the game

Glashub

Kevin, why don't you test drive the IS350 or GS350 Fsport if you get a chance? It'd be interesting to read your thoughts.

JT4

I couldn't agree more!!

Edward'TLS

Winning a few comparison tests by some automotive magazines doesn't automatically makes the winner car the benchmark in it's class.

What good is that benchmark if few buyers are actually agreeing and/or embracing that "benchmark car".

It is the overall sales number that determines what a class benchmark is, because it is what the car buyers agree on, not one or two auto magazines agree on.

Glashub

I'm surprised by this -- Q/G: 4683 -- I have yet to see one in LA. Seen a few Fsports and a few TL's. Lot's of BMW and MB. They really do dominate the mind (and physical) space. The 2IS Lexus was dominant -- primarily women by my observation. The 3IS is too edgy for that demo I think.

Mr Marco

Conclusion drawn...

I would not put my faith in anything MT has to say.
Here are some fine examples of MT's choices for COTY from the past...

2004 Toyota Prius
2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
1993 Ford Probe GT
1988 Pontiac Grand Prix
1983 AMC / Renault Alliance
1974 Ford Mustang II
1972 Citroën SM

docboy

/\ As a high schooler, I remember checking out the 1993 Ford Probe GT. I thought that was a great looking car with "flip up" headlights, V6, and manual transmission.

BEAR-AvHistory

Sure will give it a shot this weekend. Will try for some pics if the have one.

Glashub

Good man. Thanks! I know you're a true enthusiast -- and you've owned or driven some of the best -- so I'm confident we'll get a balanced and well reasoned appraisal.

Glashub

Top 10 Cars for 2014: PM Auto Excellence Awards

Luxury
2014 Lexus IS

Price: $36,860–$42,610

Every Lexus parked on the showroom floor is stuffed with the comfort, craftsmanship, and refinement that have made the brand famous. The new IS overflows with these hallmark qualities, but what's new here is that Lexus has infused the chassis with the spirit of a hard-edged sport sedan. In a class once dominated by Germans, Lexus not only has matched these legends in performance—it has actually nosed ahead of them. The Lexus IS is tremendously talented. Opt for the F Sport package, available in the 204-hp IS 250 or the 306-hp IS 350, and the thrills on a snaky road multiply exponentially. And yet its BMW-conquering backroad competence is only one area where the IS shines. Lexus has managed to innovate on the inside too. On F Sport models, the carmaker uses a new method to inject foam into the faux-leather shell, making the supportive high-performance seats remarkably soft. Perhaps best of all, the IS starts below $37,000. So the most accomplished sedan in the class is also a great deal.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...awards#slide-6

SeismicGuy

At the very least you have to give Lexus the award for "stick-to-it-tiveness" if there is such a word. Year after year they chipped away and slowly but surely listened to what customers wanted and kept their eyes on the target(s)--MB and BMW and never abandoned basic model names and identities in the chase (unlike certain other Asian marques who shall remain nameless). The IS in particular has gotten definitely more sporty and exciting and is the closest 3-series contender that comes to mind these days.

Glashub

I'll be interested to read Kevin's take given he owns a hot BMW. I don't think the IS will match his car but the benchmark is now the 2013 3 series. Did you notice the Mazda 6 was picked car of the year?

BEAR-AvHistory

I know some of the guys here think I am big time into the BMW Kool Aid but IMHO I think I am fairly objective & thought this post I made on a pretty rabid 3 series forum might be of interest. Thread is about a guy who is asking about swapping a Z4M for a Cayman S. Most of the answers as can be expected is that Porsche sucks.

My daughter picked up her new Cayenne weekend before last & I had a chance to drive 2 Boxer S’s a PDK & a 6MT.The PDK was a sport+ kind of like the 335is to the 335i & the 6MT was a regular S. The PDK S+ has no trouble knocking out 4.2/4.3 0-60 all day long. The 6MT is a few tenths slower.

In simple terms either would run away & hide from Z4 of any option package. In Car & Drivers Lightning Laps at the 4.1 mile VIR the Boxer S is 38th & Cayman is 39th fastest of all time the best Z4, the current 35is, is 78th on the list:

#38 3:03.8 PORSCHE BOXSTER SPYDER LL3 2/11
#39 3:03.9 PORSCHE CAYMAN R LL3 2/12

Best BMW finish ever

#47 3:04.7 BMW M6 LL3 2/13

Top Z4’s

#78 3:10.4 BMW Z4 sDRIVE35is LL3 2/12
#85 3:11.7 BMW Z4 M COUPE LL2 8/07

I have had 4 BMW’s 330Ci ZHP 6MT 335is 135is X3, still have two of them, but am not a Kool Aid drinker. If you want a track day car that is fun on the street a Boxer or Cayman is a hot ticket. I would, actually might, buy the Boxer over the Cayman & fit a roll bar. Z4 is a very nice street car but is not at the level of a lot of other cars that are available for track days.

When you think about an older M version of the Z4 for the track think about it sitting behind an SUV on the list.

#84 3:11.1 BMW X5 M LLT 2/12

BEAR-AvHistory

Checked our local Lexus dealer & they list 2 350F's in inventory about $48/49K each & both are 8spd AT's. There are 4 250F's & 1 250F convert @ $50k.

No ISF's in stock in the area which would be fun to play with.

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

But the Lexus has one thing all those BMWs do not... A nice interior.

I have no problems jumping on the BMW driving/performance bandwagon but their interior styling leaves sooooo much to be desired that a sexy, edgy, competent performing, well designed interior, tech loaded IS could sway me.

Some want a driving machine, others want the entire package.

If the new IS, even if just the F sport, had a 350-400HP power plant they would be KILLING it right now.

BEAR-AvHistory

Two things not everybody likes edgy, look at TL sales, some of us prefer pure functionality. I spend most of my time looking out the windscreen & the sport seats hold me in place when I maneuver. I don't even watch the tach on WOT runs since a shift light cues me to pull the paddle. Everything I need to drive the car is on the wheel or stalks. That's enough for me.

On the other side the coin the IS-F does not have 350hp & is significantly behind the BMW in rubber meets the road areas. To step up to a BMW level of performance you need to buy the ISF. One thing of interest here is based on factory published numbers the 328 4cyl 240hp with the sport package has pretty much the same performance numbers as the IS-F does with more top speed than the F. Top speed is a useless number in the US except for airport runs but is indicative of the actual engine output of the cars & the manufactures confidence in its chassis.

Any car company can build what ever type of package they choose to build there is no secret sauce & the German formula is doing pretty well in the market place that Acura used to own & Lexus has not quite yet arrived in.

The German cars in the land of the Autobahn have always stressed functionality over glitz. Most people looking for edgy performance will buy the BMW those who place a preference on visual interior entertainment will look to the Lexus.

I believe based on leaked info that Lexus is going to put its performance eggs in the ISF V-8 basket which is in the M series price range. Interesting thing my 335is will in pure stock form will run dead even with the V8-F

maharajamd

iTrader: (1)

Hey man I'm with ya. I was just on the brink of buying a BMW as I'm tired of my 3G. But I opted not to get one because I couldn't get over the interior. I test drove a lot of cars, 1dirty, 335i, 335is, n54's and 55's. And while I loved the driving experience, in the end, I just couldn't do it.

So I'm waiting while my bank roll increases so I can get a S5. Lol

Would they double their lead if they just put a little bit of time and money into their interiors? I think so.

docboy

FWIW, I found this KBB article on the CLA:

http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-...ar/2000009753/

Has the new $30,000 Mercedes-Benz CLA earned its three-pointed star?
By Jason Allan on October 3, 2013 1:14 PM

2014 Mercedes-Benz CLA-Class
The newest Mercedes isn't the cheap-lux car we worried it might be.

More than a fancy badge in the neighborhood of mainstream money, the CLA is indeed a premium experience that's also fun to drive.

After a two-decade run as the baby in the family, the Mercedes-Benz C-Class has been relegated to middle-child status with the introduction of the CLA-Class. But while the CLA is indeed smaller and more affordable than the C-Class, the new addition is also lighter on its feet, more stylish inside and out and isn't the "cheap" Mercedes we feared it might be. The new CLA is indeed worthy of its three-pointed star, and perhaps your entry-lux dollars.

Small Mercedes in a Nutshell

The 2014 Mercedes-Benz CLA 250 starts at about $31,000 with destination charges, and tops out around $45,000 fully loaded. Expect to pay something closer to $35,000 for a popularly equipped version, or build and price your own CLA to get an even better idea. It's also worth pointing out that the Kelley Blue Book number crunchers predict strong resale values for the CLA.

Although the CLA-Class is actually longer than its C-Class big brother, it's much smaller inside. In fact, the CLA has less headroom, legroom and cargo space than the subcompact Honda Fit. But we spent six hours in the car during our most recent stint with it in Washington, D.C., and Virginia, and never felt cramped or confined in front. Most of the practical compromise affects the back seat and trunk.

The CLA 250 is powered by a new 2.0-liter turbocharged 4-cylinder engine good for 208 horsepower and 258 lb-ft of torque, matched with a 7-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission. Together they help launch the car to 60 mph in 6.9 seconds and return impressive city/highway/combined fuel economy of 26/38/30 mpg. The front-drive-based CLA 250 will also be available with all-wheel drive starting in the first half of 2014.

Something Seems Different

Close your eyes while driving a CLA 250 and you might guess you were behind the wheel of an Audi. On second thought, don't do that. The CLA is the first front-drive Mercedes this country has ever seen, and it has a lighter, more responsive feel than any other sedan in the Mercedes lineup. The 7-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission isn't as quick-shifting as others we've driven, but we found it refreshingly smooth to engage from a stop — a common weakness of dual-clutch units. The turbocharged 4-cylinder engine is similarly strong, steering and pedal feel are notably good, and even if the smaller, sportier CLA isn't as smooth on the highway as the automaker's other sedans — the ride can get very un-Mercedes-like over rough roads — quality seats help qualify it as comfortable enough to satisfy the buyers for which it's built.

Let's Move Inside

"Does the interior feel cheap?" That was the $30,000 question heading into our first encounter with the CLA, and we were relieved to discover a freshly styled passenger cabin with none of the overtly downscale touches that have plagued similar efforts in the past. Contrary to our fears, the CLA's interior vibe counts as one of the cars strengths. The coupe-like profile takes a toll on rear headroom — six-footers might want to take their own car, even for a short ride — and the trunk isn't particularly generous, but style almost always has a price.

Extra-strength Edition

The CLA is also available in a high-performance version, but at a much higher price: The 2014 Mercedes-Benz CLA45 AMG starts at $45,000 and tops out closer to $60,000. Like the CLA 250, the AMG-tuned CLA is powered by a 2.0-liter turbo 4-banger, but it's a hand-built variation that Mercedes claims to be the most powerful 4-cylinder engine available in a production car. Able to manufacture 355 horsepower and 332 lb-ft of torque, Mercedes says the signed and numbered engine will power the more sinister CLA to 60 mph in a scant 4.5 seconds, with help from the added traction of standard all-wheel drive and a performance-tuned version of the same dual-clutch transmission in the CLA 250.

A Common Dilemma

More than a new combination of capital letters from Mercedes-Benz, the CLA is an all-new model in an all-new segment for the automaker. Now you can get into a Mercedes for the price of a well-equipped Honda Accord.

But should you?

On one hand, a $30,000 Accord is roomier, more comfortable and actually has more luxury-like features — leather, moonroof, navigation, app integration — than you'll find in a $30,000 CLA-Class.

But even at its base price, the CLA 250 is way more stylish and far more fun to drive than any mainstream midsize sedan, plus, oh yeah, it's a Mercedes-Benz.

The low-$30,000 price range is full of such mainstream vs. luxury brand dilemmas. Fortunately there are always several right answers, and the new 2014 Mercedes-Benz CLA-Class is now one of them.

Where to Next?

See the forthcoming CLA-based crossover SUV, the 2015 Mercedes-Benz GLA

Check out the 2015 Audi A3 Sedan heading our way in 2014

Consider the less fancy but more affordable Acura ILX or Buick Verano

Build and price a 2014 Mercedes-Benz CLA-Class with your choice of features

Glashub

The power of the brand -- "But even at its base price, the CLA 250 is way more stylish and far more fun to drive than any mainstream midsize sedan, plus, oh yeah, it's a Mercedes-Benz."

BEAR-AvHistory

Be worse if it was a POS plus , oh yeah, it's a Mercedes-Benz

BEAR-AvHistory

Lexus Quick Test

Bad news - Good news - Surprising news

Bad news the 350 IS-F had been sold so no test drive

Good news they has triple black ISF was a knockout visually.

Surprising news – It is very Germanic inside about 10 buttons total on the panel & console. They have also not used the predator mouth grill on it. So for the comments about BMW tricking out their panels looks like the Japanese when they want to go head to head tone theirs down.

Personal bias its WAAAAY to big.

The car is nicely done with good looks inside & out. Seats are supportive, the interior is well appointed, laid out & worthy IMHO of its price. It’s a comfortable rider with no crash or thump but sill maintains its poise much better than you would expect given its bulk. Its not a tossable nimble car but it will get from place to place over back roads at a very good pace. Acceleration is brisk & should hold up well against most sports sedans, feels a lot like my 335is in stock mode. My butt dyno would say 0-60 in under 5 seconds some place in the high 4’s & based on my market test road in Mexico very low 13’s @ around 110mph in the quarter, yes I asked permission to run it out.

This is very quick for such a big car, close to 2 tons & in M3 territory without the M3’s handling. If I was in the market for a 550 5 series I would certainly have this on the list. For around $70K it’s a pretty good deal.

Have to wonder if they would have let me play if I had shown up in my Ranger with a Tae Kwon Do tee shirt on?

BEAR-AvHistory

Lexus Quick Test

Bad news - Good news - Surprising news

Bad news the 350 IS-F had been sold so no test drive

Good news they has triple black ISF was a knockout visually.

Surprising news – It is very Germanic inside about 10 buttons total on the panel & console. They have also not used the predator mouth grill on it. So for the comments about BMW tricking out their panels looks like the Japanese when they want to go head tone theirs down.

Personal bias it WAAAAY to big.

The car is nicely done with good looks inside & out. Seats are supportive, the interior is well appointed, laid out & worthy IMHO of its price. It’s a comfortable rider with no crash or thump but sill maintains its poise much better than you would expect given its bulk. Its not a tossable nimble car but it will get from place to place over back roads at a very good pace. Acceleration is brisk & should hold up well against most sports sedans, feels a lot like my 335is in stock mode. My butt dyno would say 0-60 in under 5 seconds some place in the high 4’s & based on my market test road in Mexico very low 13’s @ around 110mph in the quarter, yes I asked permission to run it out.

This is very quick for such a big car, close to 2 tons & in M3 territory without the M3’s handling. If I was in the market for a 550 5 series I would certainly have this on the list. For around $70K it’s a pretty good deal.

Since the sales staff was all in suits have to wonder if they would have let me play if I had shown up in my Ranger with a Tae Kwon Do tee shirt on?

Glashub

lol Butt dyno. Thanks Kevin. The ISF is due for a refresh. Unless I'm mistaken that ISF you drove is on the old suspension. The new ISF should give you an idea as to why the 2014 IS350 Fsport is being lauded.

BEAR-AvHistory

Was 2014 on the window sticker, don't know what flavor the suspension was but any suspension would have its work cut out for it.

I don't think I will ever get a big car again outside of an SUV.