jim_c

This is kind of fun to read - kind of like reading about a bad accident - but what is the point? The original post was a comparison of Acura TL versus the new MB CLA. The original comments were almost entirely opinion and personal preference suggesting that Acura is losing the styling battle if there is such a thing. Nothing wrong with that I guess.
Now the discussion has become a sort of general discussion of what drives car purchase decisions. I think people should state their opinions and explain why they feel the way they do. But we don't need any analysis or critique when folks post their thoughts. If you think someone is out to lunch, just ignore it and post your own thoughts on the topic, not on the other posters.

BEAR-AvHistory

And you can always wade through the threads where people are berating Hyundai/Kia as inferior to the TL which is interesting when they were doing it with a V8 Genesis as the target. Example: why would someone buy a car with a Hyundai nameplate when they could get an Acura? That's not an Acura owners status statement, Really?

One guy knows a guy who knows a guy who did this & suddenly all CLA buyers are bare bones buyers. How many TL's go out the door in minimum trim to someone who had Accord money but though the nameplate was important?

Right now the CLA is outselling the TL 2-1 in September & 5-1 in October. What we don't know yet is the average or median price of the CLA or TL's sold.

You are making big assumptions about a car that can top out over $50K all going bare bones.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree I bought my TL because I needed a 4 door for a school bus & thought the Honda 4 door was Fugly. Two jokes in the family. What's an Acura? & the $2500 premium per door that I paid over a Honda Coupe, which I would have bought if it would not have been a PIA getting the kids in & out.

SeismicGuy

Basically it is the same as why someone would spend thousands on a Rolex versus spending hundreds or less on a Citizen or Seiko--because they can and they want others to know they can!

Packagingpro

Car and Driver just reviewed the CLA, it did not give it a great write-up! After reading the review, I think this car is a direct competitor to the ILX. Save $$$$ for the new TL in 2015!

winstrolvtec

Call it fooling or kidding, whatever you want, but it does exist, there are countless examples here, we all know those folks, there are more of them than we think, many make up a large part of sales. It exists in the premium brand Acura as well, so it's not about bias or what I drive vs others, however I would argue that it happens less because of the sales figures and general perception of the Acura brand as it relates to others.

Buying over one's head always existed but it does not have to mean that their car gets repo'd, or that they cannot afford it, there are things to a similar effect that I suggested above, that within the same monthly payment there is pretty elaborate spread of cars that anyone with that budget or who can budget can technically "afford".

That's the thing, it is exactly about what is attractive and they can "afford" but what we already established afford is not that hard and what people find attractive is subjective and it is easily influenced not only by others but also the brand or label it falls under. Many times that's simply all it is. Think about our social dynamics as people, did you ever notice what perceived high status individuals are able to get away with that others are not? It's all rooted in acceptance and wanting to be accepted, call it popular if you will. It has always carried over to material items, cars is a big one of those and it is a perception that is created and maintained for it to be effective anyway. Not knocking it, just being real about it, more power to them.

Folks moving on from Acura usually do move up but they also tend to get something worthy of the brand and not some stripped down, half knock off designed to be sold to anybody. The Accord and TL are fundamentally similar but so is the 320 and M3. Which is more likely to be sold to a pretentious individual? Again no one is making the argument that it doesn't happen within Acura at all.

I think many here are above it but it's not all about performance just because one is a car enthusiasts, that just means we look at everything, more than just what it looks like or how it is perceived by people, the badge and if we can afford it. With a styling that has been noteworthy to say the least, the way it has with regards to the 4G TL, it would have to seem that most current gen TL owners are above that, well above that.

I believe Acura has actually achieved a similar level of status at one time but they also lost that along the way. Again what makes some brands considered Tier 1 over others has little to do with the CLA or C class, etc and the same goes for the comparable ILX/TSX/TL. I think the problem as evident by some is that "Acura" does not get that recognition and so regardless of the fact that people are merely shopping a TL and C Class or maybe low end E class, etc, they let that be one of the single most deciding factors but FWIW, anything that is Tier 1 or draws that association has nothing to do with the TL or any other comparable and competitive make for that matter. The concept of Tier 1 is not rooted in these cars IMO, sorry. If that is what one is hoping for, then they are only kidding themselves. Could it be that Acura's single biggest problem as a brand, is that they are not pretentious enough?

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^
Pretentious enough? They surely tried, remember the very upscale visuals accompanying the "most powerful Acura ever" 4G rollout? I have never seen an Acura commercial that you could not swap in a German car or a Lexus & not miss a beat. IMHO the car was trendy & trendy is not generally accepted as classic & evolutionary classic is what the other cars including Lexus do pretty well. Evolutionary classic is also what many here call boring. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder & one mans boring is anothers timeless.

You can go back 15-20 years & still recognize styling cues from them in the current crop. My 2004 & 2013 are unmistakably from the same auto family as is the generation before the 2004. The TL's cues don't even go back to the prior generation, there is no continuity gen to gen so they pretty much have to start over from scratch each time building the brand. That only works if you can bat 1000 over multiple generations with their design. Still not a good way to do it & one gen like the 4th can & will really hurt a long term effort like brand building.

Look what is happening with the RLX. October was their best month ever with 830 cars sold & 3741 since February. The guys they want to compete with sold E class 6456 & 5 series 5020.

Acura has a fundamental problem & that problem is not me beating up on them. They build a very good product that people will not for whatever reason (fill in the blank) buy in any meaningful numbers.

BEAR-AvHistory

Should Say "the guys they want to compete with E class sold 6456 cars & 5 series sold 5020 cars in October alone".

BEAR-AvHistory

Thought you would all be excited to hear that Daimler said October sales for its Mercedes-Benz premium auto brand reached a new record, growing volume by 15.3 percent to 126,421 cars for the month.

Howard's

You are just rambling now.

I'm 100% sure, that no one said anything about the higher models being bare bones, or that ALL CLA buyers are bare bones. For whatever reason, you are creating imaginary statements. The "bare bones/ bargain basement CLA", is what we are referring to and it is not 50k.

If someone is in the market for a 30k car, they are interested in the 30k Benz, not the 50k Benz.

docboy

/\ Agreed.

I suspect Acura's main problems are (in decreasing order):
1) Unaccepted mainstream exterior styling, esp its sedans
2) Poor/unexciting marketing leading to an undefined image and brand definition

And to a somewhat lesser extent:
1) Insufficient models available compared to its competition (ie. Acura has ILX/TSX/TL/RLX and RDX/MDX. Audi has A3/A4/A6/A7/A8/R8 and Q5/Q7 and various coupe/high performance models/trims.
2) Too closely tied to Honda

BEAR-AvHistory

Excuse me Howard but you said you knew a guy as in 1. Then you post

You went from your "friend" quickly to "They", "people" & a context that clearly extends it into a general statement about an implied group buying a cheapo CLA for the badge.

My statement is that at this point all we know is they are selling well & not what the price point is. For what its worth the Raleigh dealer has 5 @ $32K $37 $38 $38 $41. Can't tell how the $32K one is configured but the base price is listed at $29,900

The stripped bare bones $29,900 standard equipment is
HD Radio™ receiver
Hands-free Bluetooth interface
Sport front seats
14-way front seats with memory
4 way power lumbar support Driver
Split-folding rear seats
Ambient interior lighting
Performance & Safety
Key Standard Features
2.0L turbo Direct Injection 4-cylinder engine
7-speed DCT dual-clutch automatic transmission
ECO Start/Stop system
COLLISION PREVENTION ASSIST
ATTENTION ASSIST
Adaptive braking technology
Daytime Running Lamps
Rain-sensing windshield wipers

Not to shabby for a bargain basement deal, your results may differ. Question is would most people think the bare bones deal is a nice car for $30K? I believe most would really like the inclusion of a 7DCT in a base car when you can’t even get it in a lot more expensive cars. Personally I could see one of these for my grandkids.

winstrolvtec

What is meant by saying that they are not pretentious enough is they are (for good or bad) content in offering very average, pedestrian, middle of the road and mainstreamed type trims and variants, also the number of models available overall, which may or may not be a good business move or both but in terms of perception or cache, there is not much to get people overly excited on an emotional basis that draws many more to the brand and the dealership even if to only sells them an ILX or TSX. Clearly it works for the others.

We're in agreement on most things, however the contexts may be the only differences. For example, I agree that the TL was too trendy or just too much of whatever it is or was. I like it, the majority doesn't seem to, and we see the results, however I have also seen the same type of designs on other more widely accepted brands and no one says squat, the CLA is one IMO, in fact people rip Acura for stuff they would never dream about doing in other brands, it just doesn't occur to them, stupid nit picky things like buttons and wheel gap, etc, that I have seen in Porche and MB to name a few. Things that are usually not deal breakers or you don't make a lot of fuss over unless of course they are the guy that gets picked on, if you know what I mean?

Goes back to the forgiveness (and perhaps blindness) that high status and high brand perception provides. Of course, you don't do yourself any favors by admitting to the general buying population that we are and will remain Tier 2, as Acura did. Not to say all is lost to be a successful Tier 2 player, far from it, but among the pretend crowd and those that also follow along those lines like the automotive media, there is a negative connotation before the comparison has even started and the opposite seems to be true among some others.

I think the RLX is a perfect example of that as you mentioned, and again I agree there as well. I don't think there is anything remarkably wrong with the RLX in terms of the vehicle itself relative to it's competition, provided that it is comparable in price and/or equipment. What comes to mind is what is being labelled as bland styling, which is not terribly different than the others it competes against, that it doesn't push the envelope in terms of offering a V8 and high performance model, might be missing a few exotic features as you can't also price it to $70k for a comparable model for now, but for the bulk of those shopping and actually buying in this range does most of that really apply?

IMO, no, again you don't see that many M or AMG variants or V8's even, and most don't get their 5 or E priced at $70k even in a V8 so a lot of those paper comparisons don't translate, where it losses out the most in real time is that it is simply not a BMW or MB and the styling comments IMO, and that's really most of it summed up, but again I will argue that if it had the same type of brand cache as others, the styling would either not be an issue or much less of one. People even go as far as to make up or exaggerate, either consciously or unconsciously, trivial excuses in attempt to quantify what people often say is "a nice car, nothing wrong with it but something is/was missing". Gee, wonder what that is?

However, I'm curious to get others take on it because I have done an unbiased comparison as far as what I believe that to be and in real life and these are the things I came away with, with the RLX, relative to the E and 5, the most successful in that segment. It's no different than what I feel about the GS or A6 in relation to them as well who are also not as successful.

I would add that it might serve the discussion to draw attention to your points about the sales numbers, which I don't think anyone has ever posted many or as much in opposition or to prove a negative point or otherwise at least, in terms of Acura sales vs others. I think you may be proving the point many are trying to make but it seems if Acura or individual models had "meaningful" sales by definition then you may not be as negative towards them which is the same or similar type of crap that most people buy into.

To use the classic argument applied a little differently, it would appear Acura and even the RLX has meaningful sales compared to others like Saab, Jaguar, and Volvo and my point among others here has been so what? Just the same, simply because it's an Acura and they sell more doesn't have much bearing in my mind. The cars are the cars and we are who we are with our own needs and likes and so although it is life, I'm not sure how much all that other stuff has or needs to factor into it.

Edward'TLS

Yes, Acura makes very good sedan products.

But once the Acura (or almost all non-recognized luxury auto brands) sedan start creeping into the $50K price range, people stop short of buying it. For > $50K, people go for sedans from best-known luxury brands with prominent brand images.

Howard's

You are obviously not comprehending what I am trying to say. I'm not trying to argue with you, you apparently love to argue peoples OPINIONS! Keep in mind, you are the one on here preaching facts. I stated 1 scenario that I personally know of that supports the idea of declining sales in other luxury brands because of the affordability of an entry level CLA. You obviously have nothing better to do than over analyze everything until you start coming up with BS.

Do me a favor bub, don't quote me and agrue what I'm posting unless it is said to be fact, not an opinion. Thanks, and good morning to the rest of you!

jim_c

FWIW I don't give a moment's care to MB, Audi nor BMW. I will never buy one.
It's fine to have a thread for discussion, it's sort of a free country.
But I just want to state my opinion on the TL. I don't understand the criticism of the styling of the 4th Gen. I personally think it's great, including the beak. In my opinion it is far better looking than the previous versions. I shopped for the 3rd gen and ended up buying the 4th since to me there is no comparison. The car has excellent seats, a fun interior (dash) enough bells and whistles for me, lots of power, decent handling, and probably good reliability. The dealers I have dealt with have been excellent. All in all, a good looking high quality car with everything I need or want. I can't think of another vehicle that I would rather have right now. It's not a status symbol. I'm 68 yo and I don't give a crap about impressing anyone. If the masses don't recognize a good deal and a good car - so what? Acura's not going to close down in my lifetime.

JT4

I have mentioned in another thread that IMO it is just as important for Acura to not only style the TLX right to appeal to everyone but they also need to price it right, this is critical.

I know that Infiniti is selling a loaded Q50 in the $50’s, and personally don’t think they are going to move a lot of them at that price.

I feel that if Acura prices a loaded TLX low to mid $50K they aren’t going to sell many more than they did with the 4G, if that many. I just don’t think many people, besides some of us here would spend that much for a TLX.

Look at the RLX, it’s a good car but IMO Acura priced themselves out of the market. I feel that most buyers in the higher priced segments care more about what the brand projects (prestige) than what it delivers. Most of these same people would rather own a “lesser” equipped E-class or 5-Series than a loaded RLX, even if the RLX was a couple of bucks less.

As we all know most people are not auto enthusiasts like us forum members, so if they are going to spend $50K and up on a car they want people to know about it. This is what drives most of these consumers even more than gas mileage, tech or value.

This is why I really don’t think Acura can afford to sell a loaded TLX for too much more than a loaded 4G if they want to acheive anywhere near the sales volume they had with the 3G..

I think Acura needs to show the value it once did to gain back market share.

g37guy01

I couldn't agree more. I buy a car for me not to impress people. Alas , there are folks who believe those who buy a $35K CLA are badge hounds and buy only for status and have proof posititive of that assertion.

I really don't know why the TLs aren't selling. Maybe people think the competition is executed better and has better value. Two close friends of mine got TLs recently. So i spent a lot of seat time in them and it was meh, not that they weren't nice.

And I disagree, Acura by my definition is a status symbol, although you may not think so. Certainly as much as Lexus, Infiniti, BMW and Mercedes, although their sales of the sedan are trailing the pack.

TeamAcura

Some people actually do buy because of the badge. Especially the younger crowd and the CLA is what this demograph is targeting; young college grads and first time buyers dipping into the luxury market. This is not rocket science. It is all about the badge for the CLA IMO.

JT4

You're right, and MB knows that if they get these people in their cars at the entry level there is a very good chance they will stay with brand as their careers progress.

Booya4139

i saw one today from 3/4 rear angle and it looked awkwardly swoopy... giant wheel gap and strange wheels didn't help either...

It was meh for me....

g37guy01

I think it actually is rocket science. I'm a badge buyer, but not a status seeker. I can buy the bmw badge in a ny second, because I understand what I'm buying is not a logo, but what is under the skin. Companies want customers to buy their "version" of the badge.

Howard's

Exactly what I've been trying to say. As for the more expensive CLA's, sure, maybe they know what they're paying for........

docboy

Good post, and agreed for the most part. I bought the 4G TL b/c it's a good value, and 6MT/AWD/mid size sedan is a rarity. I didn't mind the looks, and placed more emphasis on function over form.

The general public though, IMHO, cares more about FORM over function, as evident in surveys and sales.

Styling is subjective. The general public and reviews suggest that Acura's keen edge design styling is polarizing; people either hate it or love it. No other automobile exterior design has garnered so much love and hate.

Whether we like it or not, styling and badge SELLS. I personally would not buy the CLA because I don't consider it an upgrade to my TL; my TL has more room, 6MT w/AWD, better interior, and is likely to be more reliable. But I'm not your average automobile consumer.

The fact is the CLA has already sold ~5,000 units in October in only its 2nd month release; compared to the TL and TSX at 1,300 and 1,200 respectively. We can argue all we want on how good a value the 4G TL is (which I agree, the 4G TL is an excellent value, 5 series size, S4 level performance in MT trim), but all this defensive argument is not generating Acura sales.

Acura needs to do something, and FAST, before the CLA and the upcoming A3 renders the ILX/TSX/TLX to insignificance.

docboy

Yup. Acura is a status symbol, how much of status it generates is debatable.. It may not be at the consumer level of say Porsche/other German makes, but it has carved its own niche. I have to admit that I personally would never drive a Buick or Kia, no matter how nice their sedans are.

As I mentioned above, Acura's main problems are that its styling doesn't fit its sedans, and its marketing strategy is poor executed. Of all the auto commercials and ads, Acura's is the poorest IMHO. There is just no sense of excitement and it doesn't generate that WANT factor.

Once Acura can get its styling back to mainstream acceptability, and come out with a marketing scheme that is exciting, and introduce a few more exciting models, the sales numbers will go back up. IMHO.

BEAR-AvHistory

Lighten up Howard it’s the internet. Its driven by an exchange of opinions that are at odds. If you don’t want something quoted don’t write it down, or say “please don’t quote me but” because if its posted the words are fair game. My most favorite debating opponents here quote me on numerous occasions & in 8 years I have yet to have gotten all butt hurt about being quoted.

The topic is the CLA. We are talking about a number of things including the reasons for the buying decision. Its generally considered here to be a status driven buy & I can under stand that. What I enjoy is no matter what the debate point someone always pulls up the “I have a friend who” fill in the appropriate words to support their basic premise & the more outrageous the story the better.

That being said some of what I have written over the years was to play with absurdity with absuibirty, yes I really enjoy the debate but don’t tell people who have a different opinion to STFU, try to get them banned or call them names.

The buying a CLA quickly went into buying a badge & status as Ray Charles could have seen from the get go. What I find interesting is the all most total lack of buy the badge & status when it comes to the TL. Its always “its got everything the E class/5 series has for less money”. So by default its not a badge buy because the badge has no meaning to the TL buyers.

What seems to be of no relevance to many here is that except for four wheel drive anyone who has purchased a TL since the new Accord was released may have bought less content for more money especially in the driving tech area. Does that make a TL owner a badge buyer when it comes to its lesser priced sibling?

Howard's

Well from the sounds of it, you have it all figured out. I didn't think this was a debate thread when I first joined in. My mistake, I'll know next time to not post unless my opinion is a reflection of your own....Lol

jim_c

You lost me there!

SeismicGuy

I guess the bottom line to this thread is that yes, the CLA is taking sales away from Acura and probably from all of the other Asian luxury wannabees as well. Brilliant move by CLA and, who cares why anyone is buying the CLA but the end-story is that they are buying.

JT4

Exactly, good point.

Glashub

Never, ever underestimate the power of a brand and branding. People are much more impressionable and slaves to automatic triggers than you may think.

BMW is the 11th most valuable brand. MB the 16th. Lexus the 87th. Acura didn't make the top 100. The TL is not a $55K brand. The IS is not a $55K brand. The Q50 is not a $55K brand once one figures out it is still an Infiniti G37 replacement no matter how many times they change the name and add tech.

The 11th and 16th most valuable brands have the cachet and the money to do things the others can't. BMW and MB are stand alone companies that have been building their brands for many decades. Infiniti, Acura and Lexus are perceived as the "vanity projects" of more pedestrian car manufacturers. They deliver better value but will never have the brand power of the Germans. Heck, Germany is a post war brand known for advanced engineering and manufacturing. Just my .02

http://www.forbes.com/powerful-brands/list/

JT4

^ Good post and very true.. I feel that some people do underestimate the power of "the brand".

Take a CLA as is and re-badge it as a KIA or Hyundai, nothing wrong with these brands but they don't have that three pointed star on the nose.

For sh*ts and giggles lets start the pricing at $25K and top it out with every conceivable option at $32K.

They will sell some, but IMO I don't think KIA or Hyundai would have sold nearly as many as MB has already sold, even though the Benz is priced higher @ $29.9K to start and $45k just about loaded.

Like it or not that three pointed star on the front is worth more to some then the contents or value of the car.

SeismicGuy

I am old enough to recall where the cars to lust over were the American models and folks waited in breathless anticipation each year to see what changes the manufacturers had come up with. At the time European cars were basically looked at as a curiosity. I even recall way back when I saw the occasional Mercedes as a kid and they were awkward looking and underpowered (compared with the then-current American cars). Similarly BMW was never a big deal that I can recall but perceptions changed for both around the early 1980s when they started focusing more on what Americans wanted. So they had this European prestige and it took 20 years or more to chip away into the US market.

By contrast the earliest I can recall seeing Japanese cars was maybe back in 1964 when as a kid living in New York I did see a few Japanese cars at the 1964 New York auto show. There was no prestige or heritage associated with the models but, rather, the emphasis was on reliability and economy. So basically the image that is initially established is the one that sticks.

Acura had done a fairly decent job of establishing a prestigious image with the Legend and I recall folks really lusting after owning one of those almost as much as a MB or BMW. Then all those years of establishing the Acura were thrown away when the Legend was ended. I would be willing to bet that the current doldrums of the brand could be traced back to whatever was going on in Acura's management/marketing departments to lead to the decision to kill the Legend.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Unless those CLA buyers have to chunk down $1000 at a time for repair visits.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Leasing European vehicles will rid of the expensive repair bill problems.

Upon lease ends, then move up to a bigger vehicle from the same European brand.

g37guy01

Maybe the "brand" gets you something. Since you mentioned the bolded above, while my car was being fixed at the shop the insurance co. gave me a Sonota for three weeks. OK construction, lots of tech, terrible driving dynamics. Is this what BMW is competing against? And you think the case against Hyundai is brand image vs let's say 135? Which in my opinion is the most fun car I've ever driven.

As you say like it or not, maybe there is a reason the "badge" on the car is worth money, and it's not because the buyers of these "badge" products are senseless, mindless, status seekers, that are hypnotized by visions of status increases the minute these cars hit their driveways.

BEAR-AvHistory

Excellent post & a good example using the runt of the litter the 135.

I bought a 135is to replace a 2004 330Ci ZHP. For those who don't know the ZHP its an extended performance option (engine, trans, wheels, suspension & seats on the E-4x series 6MT Coupe/Convert which the BMW purists (anti-turbo) believe is the best non-M 3 series ever built.

Road & Track http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...?click=main_sr & I believe the 135is is the best non-M series ever built, period. It’s a limited production, 2013 only model, closing out the E-8x series. Based on BMW production numbers mine is one of 3 converts in the US with identical color, interior, trans & options.

For the badge watchers it’s the ultimate badge whore car for those who cannot afford a real BMW even though its MSRP is north of $55K. Interesting thing the styling is as polarizing to some as the 4G is to others. That being said it’s a great turner & burner that suits the 6MT very well.

winstrolvtec

Just a thought, no offense but perhaps the badge is doing the convincing for you. For example, I know people who don't particularly care for BMW's driving dynamics (even in past years) as a daily driver or at all, myself included (never understood the hype outside of all the media praises) lots of the regular buying population doesn't care for that kind of inspiring drive or can't appreciate it either. Be mindful of the very different types of driver groups there are, while they may have exceptions there are just some kind of cars and drives that do not suit them.

Furthermore the drive or the dynamics might explain BMW but doesn't explain Lexus or MB who are quite different in that respect so somehow everyone likes MB, Lexus and BMW driving dynamics and not Acura's, Audi's or Infinti's?

That does not compute in my mind, the truth is most people go from car to car and appreciate and every single one for it's own individuality, demeanor and character it presents. Every new purchase brings something else and something new to the table in these regards, most people tend to adjust and like each one just fine while acknowledging that they are different.

Again nobody said all of these buyers are senseless and all that, you personally (as well as most here) seem to be much more in touch with what you like and are also more enthusiast based than most so no one would really put you into that category, however should that detract from the number of real people who don't really know the cars on that level, what they actually like, etc, etc, outside of I can afford it and it looks good to me and again "it's a -insert name brand here-"?

I'm open to the possibility that there are not as many of those individuals and it's only anecdotal and to apply it to large scales is incorrect and that it truly is something within the product vs other products, etc, etc, but I don't see it, many don't see, we have tried real hard, and I don't think that's it. I have never seen too many real and valid arguments that are the largest component in what drives that sale over this sale and in the numbers that they do, only dressed up excuses IMO.

Certainly I can see why someone might like each car in it's own right and would buy it when it truly aligned as the car for them and their needs, etc, but I don't get why we see the two to one and often three to one proportions outside of these factors entailed in this discussion when a lot of times others are a perfectly compatible product.

winstrolvtec

Agree, new Accord vs comparable TL, seems like it's more of a badge buy. However I don't know if that takes anything away from the discussion/position because again, that happens with Acura as well, no suggestion otherwise, only real argument is that it's less due to sales volumes and overall perception of the brand.

Furthermore, as said, with such a criticized exterior styling, it would seem most TL buyers would have to put a lot of that other stuff aside and really focus on the car itself and themselves in relation to a car in general because although they may like it, they know there are many who don't.

FWIW, it seems Acura is indeed a status buy to middle to upper mainstream buyers as well as Honda buyers and shoppers but the question is, is it more or less of a status buy to other luxury buyers? I would argue less because while it has that type of overall general perception to those above named buyers/shoppers, it doesn't seem to have as much from other luxury makes like MB and BMW, and Audi to an extent (even though they don't get those droves of sales), however because of the Japanese affiliation, I think Lexus (who does get those sales) and Infiniti (who doesn't) folks, cut them some slack.

BEAR-AvHistory

Point is its the kettle calling the pot black. One of the most prominent hits here when anyone talks of a upscale brand is the badge shopper knock which just happens to come out of the same group of posters. Its happens as sure as the sun rises in the east.

The other is buyers of more upscale cars are dumb because they did not go Acura. Its a consistent pattern.

Took about 14 or 15 posts to get past this stuff to get a simple congrats, my first post in the thread, when Blackular?sp a long time, multi car TL buyer went for an Audi.

I would say outside of Lexus the other two brands are not considered a luxury buy among people who are buying luxury cars. Even Honda & Nissan imply that in their advertising. MB, Lexus, Audi & BMW tend to run advertising campaigns stressing only their cars. Honda & Nissan run campaigns trying to compare their cars to the luxury brands.

Jim C said he did not know what I meant by "play with absurdity with absurdity" Its the whole badge thing....it applies to all makes & it applies to lines within brands & anyone who does not think so is kidding themselves. Its in play right down to what flavor Civic was just bought compared to another Civic