BEAR-AvHistory

The CLA did 2130 units in Sept; no Oct numbers yet.

Agree Acura screws together a really good product wrapped up in atrocious marketing. They really need to clean house & start over with a coherent plan based on the current reality.

weather

Glashub...Thanks for posting the pics of the IS. I really like your dad's analogy of individuality and really is a very well said statement!! Now, personally, I am not a fan of the neon rims but we are all unique and if you want to create a personal style, that sure is one.

I always appreciate people that are willing to push the envelop and take risks....I will be the first to say that I am very conservative and not willing to try new things....my spouse will be the second quickly behind saying the same about me. It doesn't make me a bad or weird person, it just makes me, as this young lady was trying to do.

If the Lexus forum is loaded with more youthful men, I can see why the conversation went downhill fast. While I can be a little twisted at times, I am also very respectful of others and would never go as far making anyone uncomfortable...at least not intentionally. We will all admit that guys tend to mature a bit later than our counterparts so I can see that a very attractive young woman who stir very controversial comments.

In any event....I saw the CLA and test drove one and while there are some +/- to the model, I can honestly say that I wouldn't get one. The IS250 either....the IS350 F maybe but not likely. So I am still holding on to the TLX as a replacement for my TL otherwise, I am not sure what I'll do, maybe a LADA?

Glashub

You're right, Bear. They make virtuous products that are well designed and well built. imo there really is nothing about a 2nd gen IS350 that is vastly superior to the TL I had which would merit the price and sales volume difference -- other than having a cogent plan in place, following it, and being clear about the marketing message.

And I'll best when it comes to nut and bolts, value, etc. there will be nothing to really justify the 3IS costing more than a TLX (assuming Acura stays the same price wise) but Acura will have a muddled marketing message that will leave people saying -- "What is an Acura -- really?" My .02.

Doesn't the ILX cost about the same as a CLA250?

KeithL

Well clearly there is demand for the CLA as in October they sold 4895 of them.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

acura you fail.

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

Scarey, might beat the 3 series sales figures.

KeithL

It is more than marketing, poeple buying a luxury name want a car that say something, Acura styling has become bland and unemotional.

KeithL

Not even close, BMW sold 5020 5 Series and over 11k 3 Series in October.

weather

Its not that the CLA is that much better looking, what Mercedes is doing is providing a car that is appealing style-wise, offer it at a reasonable price and giving it decently available power.....

So far, Acura is missing the most obvious with the ILX....150hp, really??!! You could sell so much more with the I2.4 in the automatic version

docboy

Yup, agreed, though I will argue the MB grill/front end is better looking, more accepting, and less offensive than the Acura's front end. 2k units in the CLA's first month, near 5k in its second, at this rate it's going to single handle-y put the ILX, TSX, and TL all to shame.

docboy

I might add the front end of Acura's, esp that of the 4G TL preMMC is bold and daring, it's too much for the general public to accept.

FWIW, I find the bold and obnoxious grill work well on the 4G TL's Palladium Metallic. At certain angles it really is aggressive and refreshing. But...even with the MMC, I still see people modding their grills. What's does that tell you?

Example on what Acura should do: I'm not a big a fan of Audi's Darth Vader type grill or even the new Lexus spindle grill. But the grills on Audi, Lexus, and even MB are aggressive/expressive and is not over decked with chrome. Acura really needs to redesign their grill so their is less chrome, less bling-bling, and hence less possibilities for people to mod or change or color match the grill. The upcoming 2015 NSX front fascia is a good place to start and have its exterior design trickle down to the TLX, RLX, and ILX.

You ever read any of these posts Acura???

SeismicGuy

Right on that point! The Mercedes marketing is inspiring, aggressive, and essentially non-stop--seems like every other few minutes I come across a Mercedes commercial on TV. Only a few years ago they were kind of bland expensive luxury cars mostly appealing to the sophisticated rich with maybe a small nod to the enthusiasts with their AMG models. Now their appeal is much broader and much more emphasized towards performance. The commercial for the CLA with the youngish guy and Willem Defoe is a case in point. I used to think BMW had cornered the market on this type of marketing but they have been surpassed by the Mercedes marketing strategy.

Rocket_man

Oct CLA did 4,895.
Oct ILX did 2,005. A pretty good month for the ILX

boe_d

I wouldn't get the CLA as I hear nothing but issues about Mercedes reliability/maintenance. I've had my current TL for 13 years now and had the breaks, tires and oil changed and I've had the transmission replaced under recall/warranty. Other than the transmission the rest is perfectly acceptable. I really don't ever want it in the shop.

On the other hand the CLA looks 10 times better than the TL which I think is the big draw for many people as their self image is sometimes tied into their cars looks or engine size.

Glashub

Here's what I think car manufacturers have figured out. There is a class of wage earner that has disappeared. The class that buys 50K cars. The middle class if you will. They are going to focus on the high end and 40K and below. When you think about it 50K is not much money for a car and it seems most people who buy in that price range are reaching as evidenced by how loud they are in expressing their disappointment upon discovering corner cutting. The Accord, the Ford Focus, and Mazda 6 seem to be all the car a 50K car is but they are not all of the car a 70K car is. I don't know just thinking aloud. I just think that with the growing wealth gap those 50K cars will sell in smaller numbers as people go Accord or S class.

SeismicGuy

I'm not sure where you are coming from but to my mind $50K is a damn chunk of change for a car. Luckily I am in a position where I could afford such an expense if I wanted to but I still consider it extravagant.

Glashub

I don't if there's any truth to my thinking but I'm trying to put this into context. In my industry programmers are starting at about 135K. The world is becoming more and more digitalized. We are seeing an uncommon number of millionaires and billionaires in their 20's and 30's. But we are also witnessing the disappearance of 70K jobs and for sure the disappearance of people who made inflated money from the real estate and loan markets. What we're increasingly left with are people who start at 135K in their 20's, the super rich and people who are making below 70K. To the former 50k is not much money (account for inflation too) but to the latter it is and so they can buy a 30K Focus that does almost everything a 50K car does and maybe more. Just thinking aloud. I don't know how manufacturers will react to the wealth gap but I do know they are aware of it and that they do know how to make the most profits they can.

There is a new economic paradigm emerging. It was predicted in the book, "The 3rd Wave" in 1980. The splintering of the country, the death of the industrial age, the emergence of the information age. We're living it and it will affect what kind of cars are sold. 50 is a lot to me too but I'm a pauper compared to the millionaires (many in their 30's) that I do business with. Let me give you an example -- people selling Sales Force software are making 400K and they are in their 20's. Think 50K is a lot to them?

SeismicGuy

But I see you are coming from the Los Angeles area which, like Silicon Valley, is one big fantasyland of overpaid 20- and 30-somethings typically involved in industries related to entertainment or tech. If you leave fantasyland and look at the real world 50K is still a lot but I do agree that 50K is basically the new 30K.

docboy

1,300 was for September 2013. I couldn't find Oct 2013 ILX sales figures. 2,000 units is better, but the ILX has been out for a while already. The CLA has been out only 2 months and it already sold nearly 5,000 units in its 2nd month.

Frankly I don't see the value the in the ILX either. The CLA has better styling, more HP, better MPG, DCT, and its entry price isn't that more than the ILX's. Reliability IMHO is all the ILX has going for it, and it's not producing decent sales numbers.

Glashub

Doug, I guess where I'm going with this is that MB is being brilliant and ahead of the emerging economics by offering the CLA. A stripped down CLA or fully optioned out Focus/Fusion, etc.? As you know for many people that's going to be a tough decision.

SeismicGuy

Totally agree with that and I have seen it first hand with our friends. Happy Lexus ES buyers for more than 20 years but when it came time recently for the next it was "hey for about the same money we can get a pretty decent looking Mercedes (C250)". It's not so much that everybody else has slowly inched up in price but that Mercedes has has come down and/or once you are looking in the high $30s how much difference does it really make in the monthly payment to extend into the low $40s?

Glashub

The genesis of my thinking is as follows: I have the 50K IS. It is missing features one would expect on cars costing less money. I can only figure that Lexus left them off because they couldn’t afford to include them, keep a margin, and keep the car under 50K. To include them might, lets say, push the car up to 55K. Not many people will buy a 55-60K IS.

The sales figures for these cars don’t really amount to much. They can make much bigger margins with their GS and LS lines. MB with the E and S class. However, one could justify a sliver of a margin if the car sold in volume. That’s why the Accord is probably a better value than a TL. Honda can take a slim margin on an Accord because it sells a boat load of them but it has to be very mindful with a TL since it doesn’t sell in volume and isn’t priced high enough to hide big margins.

See what I mean?

What will they do with the IS, Q50, TLX cars? Keep removing features or in the case of the IS include features but take away others? The Q50 is priced north of 50K and aside from poor reviews – who would pay 55K for an Infiniti? Not too many I’d guess. I hope so because in many ways that car is a pricing beta-test. Will people pay that much for a Japanese entry level luxury car?

So you have that problem along with the aforementioned diminishing class of people for whom 50K is a good chunk but affordable.
How does Hyundai do it? Hyundai is the largest ship builder in the world – I suspect that auto industry is supported by at least some of that ship building revenue – and their Genesis brand didn’t spend money on a dealer network.

SeismicGuy

I can't believe we are talking so cavalierly about $50K for just a nice car. It is really more of a statement about the worthlessness of the dollar than anything else.

I still vividly remember back in the late 1960s when my dad was driving me around giving me driving lessons. We were talking about cars and car prices and I recall at the time $4,000 was some big bucks for a car. For some reason my dad said that it would probably not be all that long before people are spending $10K for a car. I laughed and thought he was nuts but actually he was prophetic--the benefit of having been around long enough to see the creep of inflation. Well it was not all that long before "nice" cars hit $10K which, at the time, I still considered absurd.

So from my now long time life experience you can quote me when I say "it will not be that long before a "nice" car is $100K" and I may still actually be alive to see it when it comes.

BEAR-AvHistory

Average price for a new car last year was about $32,000. My guess is low $40k not $50k is the break point. SS stats say that 151,380,749 wage earners had earnings in 2011.
50% of US wage earners made less than or equal to the median wage, estimate to be $26,965. 66% of US wage earners made less than or equal to $41,211.36. Typically one years salary is about as much as most people will spend on a car, while most will spend under 60%.

ostrich

This is very interesting to me, because being in Canada, the pricing of cars is a bit different. Infiniti has been quite successful with its G Sedan here. The pricing of the G sedan has always been MUCH HIGHER in Canada than in the States. In fact, with the Q50, the pricing has gone DOWN from before, and it is now consistent with US pricing! I KID YOU NOT! So while in the US, the Q50 pricing is way higher than the G sedan, in Canada, it has gone down indeed (when you factor in all of the necessary options to make a direct comparison with the Q50)!!!

So while you guys in the States think that the Q50 is way too overpriced, Canadians probably think that it's a bargain, comparing to the G sedan!!! LOL

weather

^^ Its interesting for us, Canucks, eh?! It is interesting to see so much bad review on the Q50. I was expecting this car to be loved by all media but it seems to be bashed quite severely.

** Off topic ** It would be great if Acurazine had a "chat" section where people could go there and have interactive discussions, while still being to post like we do here

BEAR-AvHistory

Location, location location as the real estate people say. We had a 4.0 V8 Jag Sovereign in England. In England it cost in Pounds Sterling what it cost in Dollars in the US.

Although the number after the Pound & Dollar sign was the same the Pound was worth about $1.72.

Rocket_man

The Q50 has sold...

August: 2,434
September: 2,367
October: 2,556

So it is out selling the 'old' TL anyway. And if you think about it, the Q50 price it is not too far from an entry RLX, it is outselling that 3:1.

For me $50K is too much for my next car. I can certainly afford $50K for my next car. But something in my brain says.. 'hey that is way too much to spend on a car!' After all a car is not an investment, it depreciates pretty dramatically compared to what you could do with that money. So $50K for a car is truly a luxury. If you have that much disposable income and it is your choice I have no problem with people spending their money where they want to. But my brain just won't let me go there. My first car was just south of $10K new. Will I pay 5 times more for my next car? 5 times! It hurts my head. I think $40K is the max and I hope to stay below that. But we'll see I suppose.

KeithL

I was shocked to see the Q50 sell so few compared to the history of the G sales. It could be the price point. Maybe the sweet spot is in the $35K to $40K range as most people I know that have Gs they are not loaded, they are just the Premium package, no nav or any other tech goodies.

g37guy01

It depends on how loaded the Qs are. Selling 2500 units at 55K is impressive, at 40K not so much.

jim_c

Well, I insist I am not a dinosaur (lol) but I am not interested nor impressed with all the modern tech goodies. I don't need or want most of them. Seems I am definitely not in the mainstream. It seems odd to me that folks will pay big bucks for a car when many of them can't even drive properly, and most do not have a clue as to how the car operates. But that's just me. I would like to hear you guys and girls discuss this question. How can you make a big commitment to a car with all the current high tech features (like touch screens e.g.) when the technology will be obsolete in 2 or 3 years? How many of you have a cell phone that's 3 years old and plan to keep it indefinitely?

KeithL

I recall a while back the Infiniti manager told me their take rate on nav and tech was 30% so I assume 60% roughly are Premium and lower models which means mid $40s max for a Q50

Glashub

Jim, this is why I went for the IS350 Fsport when I got tired of waiting for the TLX. It doesn't have too much tech. The money went into additional welding, epoxy, 8 sp tranny, and of course, the new suspension. Owned cars with a bunch of tech bling and found I seldom used it after the novelty wore off e.g adaptive cruise control -- great in theory because it hits the brakes as described but accelerates horribly slow so I'd have to use my foot anyways.

Keith, makes sense. My iPhone does a better and easier job of navigating than any car I've owned. One cool thing Lexus offers is free lifetime traffic and weather through HD radio.

SeismicGuy

Well I am a dinosaur and partially agree. I just accidentally discovered that we can play Pandora on the audio system through our Galaxy S3--duh!

Anyway I thing what has happened is that the manufacturers have gone as far as they can with the mechanics, comfort, and drivability of vehicles so the only thing to distinguish one from the other are the gizmos. I can say that the tech in the TL is much more user friendly, attractive (screen) and accessible than that in our friends' new C250--they agree.

BEAR-AvHistory

A few thoughts, are you shocked? About the $10,000 new car. My first brand new car a 1962 Chevy 409/409 Impala SS was about $2600 out the door. My first brand new premium car was a 1977 Cadillac Coupe De Ville $7700 out the door. In both cases & in all since the price of the new cars I buy is in line with my current income which was a bit over $100 a week in 1962.

So waxing eloquent over the car purchased for $10,000 does not mean much. The raw data needs to be factored by the available incomes back in the day. BTW my first full time 40hr a week job paid $60 a week unloading pigment trucks in a paint factory. I owned a 3 year old Ford Fairlane 500 convertible I bought for $1200.

My cell phone plan is a 2 year deal with a new phone on renewal. So the tech is current even if I don’t use it all. What I do like is the continuously shrinking in thickness while at the same time major increases in battery life. That being said if I ever lost it or killed it one of my older phones could be reauthorized & seamlessly used.

On to the car tech. I think in car tech, nav sound, lane change warning etc. the word obsolete is a very bad term. The tech may not be state of the art after a few years but its still 100% functional. I would think the person who bought my 06 TL is still finding the way from point a to a location keyed into the nav system just fine while enjoying the sound system.

The premise of how well people might drive, expensive car A vs. cheaper car B, is IMHO irrelevant. If someone who can afford an expensive car is incapable of driving it “properly” (who defines properly?) it why would they be more capable of driving properly in a cheaper car?

Finally to at least 60%+ of the wage earners in this country would find spending $40K for a TL is a big commitment. Everything is always “as compared to what”.

docboy

Good point. For me, the "only" tech I demand in my cars are built-in nav, bluetooth, rear view camera, heated seats, USB port for music, and homelink. Anything above that is pure luxury and excess, and not really something I would pay for. Said options seem to be fundamentally similar since its intro, and each newer iteration is IMHO haven't changed all that much over the years.

The cars we like to bicker over are ~$30k-$50k in price, so I try to hold on to these purchases as long as possible (ie. >5 years). I suspect most people do the same, or they have 2-3 auto leases.

A cell phone ranges from either free (ie. Sprint has some phones that are free with every 2 year commitments) to $200-300; so to most people, a few hundred dollars spent every year or so for a phone would be considered more "disposable" and "allowable" than say a similar transaction for $30,000-$50,000 car.

Glashub

Doug, they've adopted the strategy of the electronics industry -- keep them coming back and buying with incremental new tech improvements. One doesn't really need more tech than the TL has.

Glashub

Those were the days. Look at all of that car for the money -- and that was considered one sleek looking car back then.

weather

I agree with some on you that cars are becoming so technology loaded that they are becoming a bit intimidating! I want nice luxury features but some of the stuff is getting a bit too much. One thing I wish Acura had was heated steering wheel for all their models, I am Canadian and gets cold here eh?! And why do Acura bum heaters take so long to heat compared to other brands. I drove a Chrysler 200 as a car rental for a business trip I just took and couldn't believe how nice and toasty these came and how RAPIDLY they heated up.

SeismicGuy

A couple of observations going back to pricing again. I have to admit that the $4,000 big buck car you could buy back in the late 1960s would really only give you a few years of trouble-free low cost maintenance use. I recall that after maybe 5 years or so a valve job or ring job would be looming in the near future. Cars these days can go for 10 years or more without anything major so I guess the bang-for-the-buck is better these days.

But the way I also calculate value of money is what percentage of a decent salary goes to big things like houses and cars. I suppose it is a function of where in the country you are and what industry you are in. But I seem to recall that, at least for me, a real nice car back in the 1980s was maybe 25% of my salary. These days it would be more like 50% of my salary. Similarly, a nice house in the 1980s was maybe 4 or 5 times my salary at the time. Now it would be more like 8 to 10 times.

Again, this is in Los Angeles so the calculation might be warped a bit.