KeithL

I am liking the new Genesis a bit, would like to see it in person. Hyundai is really stepping up their game and adding a more advanced AWD system that will help them.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

All that Hyundai needs is to open up a 2nd channel as a new luxury brand division, and given some time, will walk all over the Acura brand.

BEAR-AvHistory

A neat trick that Acura management is pulling its hair out over trying to figure out where they lost their way. Why not us! Why not us! Was a time when, I had the 3G TL, that at a local intersection out of 10 cars 6 were TL’s. Today its MB's BMW's Audi's & Lexus. They owned that segment at one time now they are an after-thought.

In the JD Powers 2013 brand appeal study the top six are the usual suspects that clueless badge snobs buy but the bad news is down in the trenches where the other brands are dukeing it out for recognition that things don’t look so good

Acura is #13 behind #9 Lincoln, #10 Infiniti, #11 Ram Trucks & #12 Volvo.

SeismicGuy

And to recall that Acura was the first of the Asian brands to try breaking into the luxury class genre. . .

BEAR-AvHistory

Which makes it all the more shocking they went from the market leaders & innovators to a brand appeal two positions behind a freeken truck that is the rump of the full size pickup segment. That thing got a HEMI?

docboy

I've seen the APEAL study as well. IMHO it appears to be ranking of brand perception, which as we suspect, can be a driving force in sales. No surprise that Porsche is #1 (which the 996/997 btw, is still a target of mine for my next vehicle). Also no surprise is Toyota near the bottom (reliable, but boring), yet the Camry and Corolla are leading sellers. So I have a hunch that this APEAL/snob badgery may be more important for "luxury" brands than non-luxury brands.

docboy

On the other hand, I just saw a report that the 2015 Audi A3 is coming out soon next year. With its MSRP a few hundred below that of the CLA yet with MORE standard options, Acura is even more in trouble.

With a 2014 release for both Audi's 2015 A3/S3 and the CLA AMG version coming out... Acura's forefront answer is the 150hp anemic ILX??? Ugh... I smell disaster for Acura's sedan division.

There are already press releases/pics of the 2015 A3/S3... and the TLX has, just a few camouflaged shots???

BEAR-AvHistory

Its a survey of owners about their own cars. So each owner is only rating his/her car. They are asked about 77 specific attributes & how their car meets them. Same set of 77 questions for everybody. So its a pretty basic "are you happy with your purchase thing?". Based on the survey I would expect every time a Porsche driver buckles up he has a smile on his face.

One thing that surprised me was that the Ram did so well in the survey but truck guys don't buy them. Ram sells about 300K a year but Ford F-series does around 650K & Chevy Silverado 420K.

The company's polling says that Toyota's value has increased by 11 percent, and now totals $24.2 billion. BMW, which took top honors last year, is now valued at $22.4 billion, and is followed by Mercedes-Benz at $15.3 billion - which also bumped Honda from third, to fourth, at $14.2 billion.

I made my living in marketing & this stuff fascinates me. I would think that the Acura sedan product line marketing organization would be a really great case study for the Harvard Business School.

KeithL

If Acura were smart they would do an ILX Type-S with the 200hp I4 and dress the car up to better compete with the Germans.

graphicguy

I have a '13 S4. Got one of the first ones that hit these shores. As such, I've had it almost 2 years. Same issues (actually, a few more). Quattro is binding going around corners. After trying to change software, greasing over and over and over again, looks like a new trans is in the works (dealer says it's the only fix, Audi is hesitating). Finish on one of the wheels is already flaking off (not curb rash...actual paint is flaking off). MMI goes rogue every once in a while. I don't use CDs all that much anymore, but when I use them, sometimes they play, sometimes they don't.

I could go on. But, it's a $55K car. Performance is exhilerating when everything works. Dealership does give me some sweet rides when it's in for service (3.0 A7, TT, etc). But, its is a real PITA to take the time to get to the dealer, wait for paperwork at the dealership, wait around to get my car from the dealership, etc.

Give it another year or so, and I think I'll be looking at the new TL(x) once again.

KeithL

I am kind of the same, unless this car is flawless here on out, I suspect this was a fad for me, although the ride is awesome, but I have no time to be running to dealer even though they are 4 blocks out of the way on my way home. It is more I don't want those folks beating on my car and man handling it with their greasy hands and clothes.

I originally bought an extended warranty for when factory warranty expires, but seeing all the minor annoyances already I cancelled it for 100% refund figuring I am out of this car in 3 years and will move on, it may be another Audi, it may not be.

hadokenuh

I think the idea is to replace the 1.5 with the 2.4 when the TSX is killed off next year. Then, the ILX will have a chance to fight against its competitors.

winstrolvtec

Interesting but nonetheless as a whole they are not really in any worse off a rank or position in terms of sales of a luxury brand then, as opposed to now, despite how well the TL did then compared to how it does now.

Not hard as a large percentage is economy related, overly prolonged model life, other cars have picked up the slack (MDX, RDX, TSX, ILX) and the Accord takes up sales as it tops out now where the 3G used to, of course the car has had it's fair share of it's own problems and contributions as well and the competition is vastly superior now vs then but I'm not sure how all this speaks for the brand's perception or that it's necessarily gone down.

Still, I agree that overall Acura's perception as a luxury brand is not very good, I just don't remember the last time it was, not that it wasn't at one time, just that it's been this way for a while and although it does not seem to help, it's not necessarily hurting either. Sales rank is ahead of perception rank if that study has any validity or if it's relevant in determining such a thing, seems it's more of a compliment to the initial quality study, might cover some areas of the discussion but it really doesn't hit home to me.

A little misleading as APEAL stands for Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout Study, and not appeal. Asking current owners about their car as if it is supposed to speak to the brand perception as a whole and we all know owners have some bias one way or another, doesn't seem 100% congruent to the points being made here. Not that I disagree with the info however and how it relates here, it's just seems to be different things. Furthermore, Ram trucks since they separated with the rest of auto group can be a bit misleading, tying back to my point on this study we know people in parts of our country love their trucks no matter what. Naturally one would be a bit more forgiving towards a work truck then a professionally served sedan, for example.

Speaking of demographics, here in the northeast, the target market for most Acura sedan vehicles, the TL is as common as the 3G was both pre-MMC and not. Seems however it did not catch on as well where FWD and AWD are not as dependent. Is that a function of drivetrain? Maybe but probably not that much as it's more about narrowed selection increasing it's favor against a now broader competitive landscape that still does well with FWD as well as the previous gen TL success, since the FWD didn't keep people away the last gen or from other competitive vehicles.

However like previous points, the 3G was an easy up-sell compared to a car like the Accord or Camry and other buyers in that range. The 4G simply was and is not, many reasons for that. Even the 3G lost some 30% at MMC when it exceeded the $35k mark and the TLS was nearly $40k. As it goes then it goes now, general buying population who cares about this sort of thing says "well for that kind of money...." we know how the rest goes.

KeithL

Still would be nice to have a sporty version damn Acura sedans are getting so bland.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Had a thing for TLs...

Seriously, I was racking up like 30k a year for work, and they were reimbursing me... pretty nicely... so I kept picking up new cars whenever I was able to strike a great deal.

graphicguy

Keith...I love Audi's S/C 3.0 and the DSG trans. But, the rest of the car? It's almost like they were in a hurry and didn't thoroughly test or engineer it.

We'll see what Acura has in store for the new TL. I believe I'll be coming back to Acura sooner rather than later.

As far as a CLA....just another underpowered, overpriced German sedan as far as I'm concerned.

Glashub

The 3G TL was my favorite car. I remember a old fellow coming up to me at a car wash when the car was 5 years old and telling me he thought the 3G TL was still one of the best looking cars on the road. It stuck a great brand balance of luxury and sport imo. Remember the "It looks fast" commercials. Playful. memorable and true. The car looked fast.

Sometimes I wonder what would've happened if they took the German approach and simply refined that design elegantly rather than go all Hasbro with the 4G.

BEAR-AvHistory

They would have had a real winner IMHO.

winstrolvtec

They might have sold an extra 15-20 thousand units a year in the beginning at least but segment leader would have been a stretch. It still would have had a 5AT at intro, too many buttons as the experts decried, no folding seats, even though the last one didn't have it, too big and too heavy even though it's not trying to be a compact, higher starting price vs lower, etc, etc.

Nontheless, I agree, the styling worked well on the 3G, so if it's not broken, why fix it? Having had 2 3G's myself, this is the best TL I have owned overall, like some styling ques better, some worse, toss up as far as best looking on a personal level IMO, but I'm sure many feel differently and as we know and are also discussing here, how it is perceived as a whole is often more important than what people might think on an individual level.

Colin

We need to be realistic here. If Acura had done a refresh of the 3G as per the "German" model, people on the internet would have complained endlessly. I can imagine the complaints now: "I waited five years for this", "they didn't change anything", "it's just an MMC".

Obviously the 3G TL was a sucess. Many factors contributed to this including a significantly lower opening price, a better economic climate, and as noted less controversial styling. From a commercial standpoint if you made another car that was "more of the same" you might keep your current customers happy but you wouldn't necessarily attract new ones.

Obviously, there's no easy answer to this question but I think the difference between Acura and the Germans is that people by German cars expecting them to look like the brand there buying. IMO, Honda and Acura do not have this heritage to follow which has pluses and minuses, obviously.

BEAR-AvHistory

Colin the Germans do evolutionary changes & people bitch, check out comments on the new 328/335/435. People always bitch about the new model; it’s a time honored tradition going back to when cars changed their skins every September & suddenly your new car was yesterdays news.

That being said the German cars still sell very well with incremental changes, in the case of the 3 series 8/10K units a month. The E92 came out in 2007 IIRC & the just released F92? (435) carries forward its styling themes. That's about 8 years in the market with just one LCI for the E92. The TL has a much faster product cycle so the "wait" for the next TL generation is 3 years to the good compared to the Germans.

The 3G TL could have been upgraded incrementally & kept fresh. When I had both the 2004 3 series & the 2011 its was very obvious that the 2011 was derived from the 2004 even though it had grown to the size of the 2004 5 series. All the BMW series cars have a strong family resemblance to each other & each prior generation. MB does the same thing & is also very successful with the strategy, Audi & Lexus are also pretty stable in the overall design of their cars.

Glashub

I agree with Bear. In all honesty -- does anyone really get tired of looking at the latest iteration of a BMW? I was at a meeting today and a new 5 series was sitting in the lot and it just looked gorgeous. The 3G TL looked gorgeous imo and I never get tired of looking at it. I think I'd feel the same if the 3G was carried over to the 4G with some refinements. I mean good looking is good looking and after all the bitching is done people will still buy good looking.

I saw a 4G on the freeway today too. And I have to say that from certain angles it's clear what they were trying for and it works. High haunch, muscular, tapered towards the bonnet. But (and as person who spent money on the 4G, I feel okay saying this) then the silver strip on the trunk just throws the rear end off for me and then there's the beak. Maybe if they could've done the 4G but included some of the best of the 3G? But they threw 3G design out like it was an unwanted mouse.

BEAR-AvHistory

Speaking of German cars daughter just showed up with the 2014 Porsche Cayenne she bought this afternoon. Very nice interior will get some pictures in the morning when its light out.

Thought she was getting a Range Rover LR4. Dealer has Land Rover, Porsche & Audi stores & she saw the Porsche in the store, priced it, took it for a ride & brought it home.

docboy

I agree with this.

/\ Good post.

Although I personally don't mind the 4G TL's exterior styling (I find its styling aggressive and still fresh after 4 years), Acura could have continued a natural progression of the 3G TL due to the 3G's overwhelming acceptance on its exterior. I think what Acura was trying to do was to respond to critics citing "dull styling" of its entire lineup. Though IMHO the 4G TL's exterior is well ahead of its time, Acura should have addressed the design early on from rampant negative reviews/critics... rather than waiting so long and having to defend its keen edge styling.

Had Acura did a more thorough preliminary consumer research and did an earlier full redesign, it would have eliminated polarizing styling from the equation.

Subaru also endured harsh criticism when it redesigned the Tribeca's grill to be very Alfa-Romeo like. Rather than waiting it out, or having to defend itself, Subaru was quick to respond and redesigned the grill 2 years later. Problem solved.

Consumers are picky, and businesses need to roll with the time and conform to the MAJORITY of its consumers, not the other way around.

docboy

Back on topic, the wave of the CLA has begun. I live in a fairly affluent and snobbish area, and I already saw a new CLA driving around and was parked at my daughter's elementary school. It;s only a matter of time before more flood the community.

ostrich

docboy, what do you think of the new MB's interior design which features a GPS that sticks up as if it is an after market gadget? I see that on the new A3 too. I really do not like it. To me, it looks rather cheap. I also wonder if it is a problem in bright sunlight too.

docboy

Same here, I too think the GPS screen looks like an add, and somewhat cheap looking, doesn't look integrated. I'll have to take another look and play around with the nav unit next time I go to the MB dealership.

Then again, I guess this is where some of the cost cutting MB and Audi took, and probably also to differentiate from the C class and A4. Having said that, IMHO Acura's interiors have always been top notch, and I never thought of German interiors to be anything praise worthy, if rather dull.

I wouldn't think these buyers would care though. At this price point, I think these buyers favor the badge and exterior design, and interior design/nav unit placement is moot.

jshaw

On the A3, the nav screen is less of an issue - it's a motorized unit that retracts fully into the dash when not in use, like the A6, A7, A8 do.

Of course, it's one more thing to break later down the road, though it is what it is.

Ken1997TL

A Hungarian-built Mercedes that's FWD and has a big schnauz?

Pass! Let the Asian housewives 'demand' them.

musty hustla

What happened to the first gen RDX powerplant? It would be money in the bank in the ILX sedan.

KeithL

Hell no! That RDX was awful, no refinement. It had lag then came on like rocket boosters on the space shuttle. Gf had one and while the overall car was nice the turbo was rough. The Germans have turbos done decently. Now if they could finesse that RDX turbo and get some refinement to it then yes, but something tells me Acura has no idea how to do forced induction.

Colin

Not to mention that RDX engine was mated to the old generation RL transmission. It is highly doubtful that THAT lump would fit under the ILX hood if the TSX 5AT won't fit.

weather

In my opinion, the ILX would not need the turbo, all it needs is the 2.4 in both manual and automatic....period!!

Now make the turbo available in the base TLX producing 275hp or so, and the DI V6 on the higher trim producing 320hp or so, and then provide a gussied up version with the SH-SH-AWD good for 350hp or so. That, to me, would give enough separation between the ILX, TLX and keep the RLX at the top of the food chain with its 377HP.

Oh and don't forget a one piece nice aerokit like the 2009 TSX had....none of this snap on pieces please

jim_c

I would hazard a guess that quite a few luxury car buyers do not even know how to use the Navi in their cars. (?) What do you think?
I have sveral friends, older guys, lots of money, they don' t know how to use a computer and see no reason to learn.

KeithL

Time to wake up now weather ... I think if you are going to take drugs like that you should at least share them with the rest of us....

BEAR-AvHistory

Bad to generalize. I can use my various Navs & even program a VCR. When desk tops & towers were in fashion was the official family builder of computers. Taught myself how to build them when my son-in-law wanted to upgrade his hard drive from 210K to 1 MB. IIRC he had 4K of memory

Its unfortunate but in some threads the "rich old guys are dumb" that buy luxury seems to be a rule of thumb. I would expect they did not get to be rich by being dumb unless there was an inheritance involved.

Seems to be a double bitch. Some people have trouble with those who have done well in life & also with people who drive luxury cars. Thing is its the people who have done well that typically can afford a luxury car.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

So true. I drove one as a loaner for a few days when I had the TL...god it was almost scary how jumpy the power was.

docboy

I had the 1G RDX as a loaner a few times, and I personally found it a very entertaining drive, esp the "rocket boosters."

What I didn't like about the 1G RDX was the horrendously ultra stiff and jarring ride over bumps/every single road imperfection and the horrible gas mileage. Other than that I liked the interior and compact dimensions.

Compared to the turbo in the 1G RDX vs the CLA, the CLA's turbo is definitely much more refined, smooth, and does not have the "rocket booster" effect.

Btw, I personally definitely wouldn't mind a turbo TSX coupe w/SH-AWD and 6MT. Then I would need to wake up...

Ken1997TL

Something tells me the world's largest engine manufacturer knows how to make a turbocharged engine.

What they didn't do was use an APPROPRIATE engine in a compact SUV that ended up being bought a completely different demographic than what they had in mind.

The K23 turbo is a great engine, but more for a Civic Si or RSX with its powerful transition and sudden turbo boost.

BEAR-AvHistory

No turbo should bang in, it just upsets the cars suspension especially in corners. The real challenge in developing a turbo is to eliminate lag, still build boost quickly but smoothly. A turbo that runs like an on/off switch is pretty useless.