Let it snow ......let it snow......
01-21-2012, 02:04 PM
#1
i am so smart S M R T
Thread Starter
First snow storm i went through today in CT. This is why i bought the 09 TL heated seats, navigation, mp3 interface, leather, 305 hp, and SH-AWD. I dont have to worry about inclines or stopping at the bottom of a hill.
I love this car. Gas mileage could be a little better ,but so far i am extremly happy with my purchase.
FYI 305 hp with VSA off is a good time.
I love this car. Gas mileage could be a little better ,but so far i am extremly happy with my purchase.FYI 305 hp with VSA off is a good time.
Last edited by Steven Bell; 01-22-2012 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Merged Posts.
01-21-2012, 04:08 PM
#3
Early Shifter
iTrader: (2)
Congrats on the purchase.
We saw some snow here as well over night, car was still nice and clean from a mid work week detail so it stayed parked.....same for tomorrow as well....let some of the slop/salt go away. lol
Wife's Trailblazer FTW. Haha.
Travel safe.
We saw some snow here as well over night, car was still nice and clean from a mid work week detail so it stayed parked.....same for tomorrow as well....let some of the slop/salt go away. lol
Wife's Trailblazer FTW. Haha.
Travel safe.
01-21-2012, 06:41 PM
#5
Instructor
I drove my 2012 SH-AWD for the first time in the snow last week. Our subdivision is the worst part of a snowy commute. Lots of ups and downs and twisty streets. I was almost speechless at how well the car took on the normally frightening drive. I know now, why people get overconfident with AWD since it almost feels like nothing to drive in snow. But as another post mentioned, stopping isn't any better so I'm going to try not to get carried away!
01-22-2012, 08:59 PM
#6
Team Owner
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
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Stock, welcome to Acurazine and congrats on your purchase!
Love the AWD!
Love the AWD!
01-22-2012, 11:46 PM
#7
Drifting
I drove my 2012 SH-AWD for the first time in the snow last week. Our subdivision is the worst part of a snowy commute. Lots of ups and downs and twisty streets. I was almost speechless at how well the car took on the normally frightening drive. I know now, why people get overconfident with AWD since it almost feels like nothing to drive in snow. But as another post mentioned, stopping isn't any better so I'm going to try not to get carried away!
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01-23-2012, 06:45 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
I'm going to guess OEM tires - as snow tires are MUCH better at stopping snow / ice / slush.
Anything below 45* and the OEM's turn to shit - rubber becomes hard as a brick.
Anything below 45* and the OEM's turn to shit - rubber becomes hard as a brick.
01-23-2012, 07:38 PM
#9
2G TLX-S
01-24-2012, 07:02 PM
#10
i am so smart S M R T
Thread Starter
yeah stock tires, but compared to my old 05 6spd with bridgstone potenza's this car is great. You are all right about the the stopping though the wife will kill me if wreck this thing doing something stupid....
01-24-2012, 08:41 PM
#11
Rowing my own
Coming off of 7 Subaru's the AWD system in the TL is pretty good, and with the traction control off very comparable to the Subie's feel in the snow.
This was on OEM tires, snows will come next year.
And has been said before All wheel drive != All wheel stop
This was on OEM tires, snows will come next year.
And has been said before All wheel drive != All wheel stop
01-25-2012, 12:46 AM
#12
2G TLX-S
^^^^^ Agree.
Not just the SH-AWD, all makes of AWD are only good to get the vehicle going in the snow. They won't stop any better than 2WD vehicles in snow and on ice. But dedicated snow tires will.
Not just the SH-AWD, all makes of AWD are only good to get the vehicle going in the snow. They won't stop any better than 2WD vehicles in snow and on ice. But dedicated snow tires will.
01-25-2012, 11:15 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
Narrowed it down to a 2011 Subaru Outback, Limited w/ Multimedia Package (Black in color, and only 13,500 km) and the TL. Settled on the TL (w/ 27,000 km) partially because I loved the look and performance, but also because the Subaru dealership mistakenly told me that the Outback was sold, when in fact it had gone home for the night with the manager. I had previously made an offer on it, and walked away when we were only $500 apart (I know, I know).
I know the SH-AWD system is geared to performance, but I do like how it's handled the Canadian winter thus far. But did I miss an opportunity with the Outback?
01-25-2012, 11:40 AM
#15
Advanced
IMHO, if we are purely talking about snow/winter traction, the Subaru has the upper hand. This is based on my test drives of the new Legacy 2.5 GT and TL SH-AWD, where I tested their winter capabilities on snow/ice covered parking lots and inclines.
In terms of overall quality and fun factor, the TL wins hands down as it should because it is priced a bit higher than the Legacy.
In terms of overall quality and fun factor, the TL wins hands down as it should because it is priced a bit higher than the Legacy.
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g37guy01 (01-25-2012)
01-25-2012, 12:33 PM
#16
This may appear off-topic, but it ties into the snow and ice performance, which is my main question. I'd be interested in your take on things. I picked up my '09 TL (SH-AWD w/ Tech) in December. My criteria going into car shopping was 1. AWD, and 2. room in the back seats for kids carseats.
Narrowed it down to a 2011 Subaru Outback, Limited w/ Multimedia Package (Black in color, and only 13,500 km) and the TL. Settled on the TL (w/ 27,000 km) partially because I loved the look and performance, but also because the Subaru dealership mistakenly told me that the Outback was sold, when in fact it had gone home for the night with the manager. I had previously made an offer on it, and walked away when we were only $500 apart (I know, I know).
I know the SH-AWD system is geared to performance, but I do like how it's handled the Canadian winter thus far. But did I miss an opportunity with the Outback?
Narrowed it down to a 2011 Subaru Outback, Limited w/ Multimedia Package (Black in color, and only 13,500 km) and the TL. Settled on the TL (w/ 27,000 km) partially because I loved the look and performance, but also because the Subaru dealership mistakenly told me that the Outback was sold, when in fact it had gone home for the night with the manager. I had previously made an offer on it, and walked away when we were only $500 apart (I know, I know).
I know the SH-AWD system is geared to performance, but I do like how it's handled the Canadian winter thus far. But did I miss an opportunity with the Outback?
Both Subaru and Acura use an integrated traction control / abs / stability control suite, and both of their systems are tuned to a very high standard and are smooth and transparent during operation.
The SH-AWD is inherently slip limiting, both from front to back and also with regard to rear axle slip, it is better than any of the subaru AWD systems in these tasks.
Additionally, the ability to generate yaw forces with the rear axle to accomplish steering is something the subaru systems cannot do.
In all conditions where both vehicles can be driven, the SH-AWD system will provide greater control and thus safety, but the outback has ~4" of extra ground clearance, and so is less likely to become stuck as snow becomes deeper.
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sockpuppet (01-25-2012)
01-25-2012, 01:38 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
The extra clearance was one of the big issues for me. Every winter (except this one, so far) there are deep ruts at the entrance to my street. In my old car ('01 Oldsmobile) I would always rub the airdam, and I was/am concerned that I'll see the same thing with the TL. I guess we'll see. Thanks for the feedback.
01-25-2012, 01:51 PM
#18
Advanced
I am torn!!!
Just bought my first AWD car in December and the now the winter is mildest on record so far. I want it to snow so i can try out the AWD performance and handling............BUT the car looks so freakin good clean, that I can hardly bare to think of all that salt and sand all over my beautiful black finish. Good thing I can't control it anyway, so I'll just go with it. When it finally happens, it happens. I am guessing you guys with AWD have had similar thoughts on this matter.
Just bought my first AWD car in December and the now the winter is mildest on record so far. I want it to snow so i can try out the AWD performance and handling............BUT the car looks so freakin good clean, that I can hardly bare to think of all that salt and sand all over my beautiful black finish. Good thing I can't control it anyway, so I'll just go with it. When it finally happens, it happens. I am guessing you guys with AWD have had similar thoughts on this matter.
01-25-2012, 02:00 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Subaru uses different AWD systems with different drivetrains, some are better and worse at slip limiting front to rear or slip limiting side to side on the rear axle, only the STi has a limited slip diff in front.
Both Subaru and Acura use an integrated traction control / abs / stability control suite, and both of their systems are tuned to a very high standard and are smooth and transparent during operation.
The SH-AWD is inherently slip limiting, both from front to back and also with regard to rear axle slip, it is better than any of the subaru AWD systems in these tasks.
Additionally, the ability to generate yaw forces with the rear axle to accomplish steering is something the subaru systems cannot do.
In all conditions where both vehicles can be driven, the SH-AWD system will provide greater control and thus safety, but the outback has ~4" of extra ground clearance, and so is less likely to become stuck as snow becomes deeper.
Both Subaru and Acura use an integrated traction control / abs / stability control suite, and both of their systems are tuned to a very high standard and are smooth and transparent during operation.
The SH-AWD is inherently slip limiting, both from front to back and also with regard to rear axle slip, it is better than any of the subaru AWD systems in these tasks.
Additionally, the ability to generate yaw forces with the rear axle to accomplish steering is something the subaru systems cannot do.
In all conditions where both vehicles can be driven, the SH-AWD system will provide greater control and thus safety, but the outback has ~4" of extra ground clearance, and so is less likely to become stuck as snow becomes deeper.
Anything you said regarding the TL is theoretical and not able to be proven in real world snow conditions. Because Subaru has a higher ground clearance, it allows for greater safety and control.
Who wants torque vectoring in the snow anyway? To send you into a 360 spin?
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-25-2012 at 02:03 PM.
01-25-2012, 02:29 PM
#20
^It (torque vectoring) might sound like it's a bit counter intuitive in this regard but it really isn't. That's why first hand knowledge is very important on internet forums.
I'm not gonna take away from ground clereance and what have you because it is also very important but torque vectoring is not just for performance handling, it also enhances the degree and response of stability and control, especially in the SH system because of it's more unique active front to rear and rear to front variability, without any spin or slippage necessary in the first place.
Fundamentally, I have no issue with someone making a case that certain Subaru or Audi setups may have better stability and control at the absolute slippage and spinning threshold or limit but I have no problem suggesting that SH is better with regards to everything that comes before that point, as well as the system's performance aspects.
I'm not gonna take away from ground clereance and what have you because it is also very important but torque vectoring is not just for performance handling, it also enhances the degree and response of stability and control, especially in the SH system because of it's more unique active front to rear and rear to front variability, without any spin or slippage necessary in the first place.
Fundamentally, I have no issue with someone making a case that certain Subaru or Audi setups may have better stability and control at the absolute slippage and spinning threshold or limit but I have no problem suggesting that SH is better with regards to everything that comes before that point, as well as the system's performance aspects.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-25-2012 at 02:39 PM.
01-25-2012, 02:33 PM
#21
A performance AWD as you described, in snow is an oxymoron. Real world my Forester can plow through snow over it's bumper, I did it with the Christmas storm's in 2010/2009 on the east coast.
Anything you said regarding the TL is theoretical and not able to be proven in real world snow conditions. Because Subaru has a higher ground clearance, it allows for greater safety and control.
Who wants torque vectoring in the snow anyway? To send you into a 360 spin?
Anything you said regarding the TL is theoretical and not able to be proven in real world snow conditions. Because Subaru has a higher ground clearance, it allows for greater safety and control.
Who wants torque vectoring in the snow anyway? To send you into a 360 spin?
AWD isn't rocket science, you need the torque capacity in the system to generate the necessary drive forces, and you need whatever technological solution you see fit to make sure that the drive forces aren't wasted in slippage.
Attach the whole shebang to good tires, and there you have it.
01-25-2012, 02:49 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
when your front tires can't produce sideways force necessary to give you the steering action you're asking for, you might want as much help as you can get, to include differential torque on the rear axle to achieve more net steering force.
AWD isn't rocket science, you need the torque capacity in the system to generate the necessary drive forces, and you need whatever technological solution you see fit to make sure that the drive forces aren't wasted in slippage.
Attach the whole shebang to good tires, and there you have it.
AWD isn't rocket science, you need the torque capacity in the system to generate the necessary drive forces, and you need whatever technological solution you see fit to make sure that the drive forces aren't wasted in slippage.
Attach the whole shebang to good tires, and there you have it.
If there is only a dusting of now I might agree with you, but in a major blizzard with several feet of snow on unplowed roads, Forester will win every time with it's supposed inferior AWD system. The TL has more power than the Subie, rides better. But the Subie can go off road, and on the beach. Can't really compare the two except they both have windows, engines, brakes and doors.
/thread derailment
01-25-2012, 03:20 PM
#23
^Well, you said snow with regards to "who wants torque vectoring", didn't specify blizzard or several feet of unplowed snow, etc. In that case, where ground clereance is more important than whatever wheels are driving the car, I don't think anyone disagrees. It's only when it sounds like you were attempting to speak for SH or torque vectoring in general, where all AWD systems have positives and negatives, not necessarily accounting for the application, like whether it is a sports sedan, a wagon or SUV, etc.
01-25-2012, 04:32 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
^^^^ From a theoretical viewpoint I'm not sold on torque vectoring in the snow, especially on ice. This is an acura board so I would expect y'all to tow the line on this.
If there is an advantage to SHAWD, in my opinion it's only on paper. There is no real world data to support SHAWD in fact provides better control and safety than say a Subaru over a range of snow and/or ice conditions.
I did have some real world experience in the oct snow on the east coast with my G, again I didn't get stuck or spin out.
If there is an advantage to SHAWD, in my opinion it's only on paper. There is no real world data to support SHAWD in fact provides better control and safety than say a Subaru over a range of snow and/or ice conditions.
I did have some real world experience in the oct snow on the east coast with my G, again I didn't get stuck or spin out.
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-25-2012 at 04:37 PM.
01-25-2012, 05:18 PM
#26
^^^^ From a theoretical viewpoint I'm not sold on torque vectoring in the snow, especially on ice. This is an acura board so I would expect y'all to tow the line on this.
If there is an advantage to SHAWD, in my opinion it's only on paper. There is no real world data to support SHAWD in fact provides better control and safety than say a Subaru over a range of snow and/or ice conditions.
I did have some real world experience in the oct snow on the east coast with my G, again I didn't get stuck or spin out.
If there is an advantage to SHAWD, in my opinion it's only on paper. There is no real world data to support SHAWD in fact provides better control and safety than say a Subaru over a range of snow and/or ice conditions.
I did have some real world experience in the oct snow on the east coast with my G, again I didn't get stuck or spin out.
i suggest you goto an empty lot with snow to try it out before u turn it off
First time i turned off traction in the snow, it didnt go that great. but 2nd time i took it to a lot, and got some practice to see how the car reacts. not too bad. guess it was just me not used to driving awd car.
01-25-2012, 07:45 PM
#27
Are you making this statement based your driving experience in a AWD TL or is this conjecture based on.........?
01-25-2012, 08:23 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
I will give you in normal snow falls of a few inches it's a different conversation. SHAWD is not like having a snow plow attached to the front of your car though.
01-26-2012, 12:47 AM
#29
Instructor
I am torn!!!
Just bought my first AWD car in December and the now the winter is mildest on record so far. I want it to snow so i can try out the AWD performance and handling............BUT the car looks so freakin good clean, that I can hardly bare to think of all that salt and sand all over my beautiful black finish. Good thing I can't control it anyway, so I'll just go with it. When it finally happens, it happens. I am guessing you guys with AWD have had similar thoughts on this matter.
Just bought my first AWD car in December and the now the winter is mildest on record so far. I want it to snow so i can try out the AWD performance and handling............BUT the car looks so freakin good clean, that I can hardly bare to think of all that salt and sand all over my beautiful black finish. Good thing I can't control it anyway, so I'll just go with it. When it finally happens, it happens. I am guessing you guys with AWD have had similar thoughts on this matter.
This past Monday, I put new Continental Extreme Contact DWS tired on my wife's '08 TSX that cost me close to $750...mount, balance, TPMS and alignment. Those tires for the TL will be closer to $900...so, needless to say, I am now hoping for an early Spring.
01-26-2012, 12:55 PM
#30
Let it snow? Fuck that. Most drivers around here have no clue what to do with the white stuff. Must be a short term memory problem from all the weed us Oregonians smoke.
01-30-2012, 02:42 PM
#31
Racer
Good to know - thanks.
I've driven in the snow a little w/ my SHAWD... and slid down all the hills... Pretty much the same thing I did in my Accord. I'm just going to stay put when it snows, since wrecking the TL would devastate me. It does feel different driving over the snow though, IMO. Love the AWD, just choosing NOT to drive when the white stuff arrives.
01-30-2012, 09:10 PM
#32
Racer
This time last year, there was about 20+ inches of snow on the ground (Philly area). This entire winter, we've had like 2 inches...
...not that I'm complaining...:-)
...not that I'm complaining...:-)
01-31-2012, 04:31 PM
#33
Advanced
hey Cobra
you should check out tire rack for the conti's. The Conti's are much cheaper than that on their site. i had them on my 05 TL and loved them. Can't wait to put them on the new one.
you should check out tire rack for the conti's. The Conti's are much cheaper than that on their site. i had them on my 05 TL and loved them. Can't wait to put them on the new one.
01-31-2012, 04:49 PM
#34
Racer
Yeah, I have been having a really good time with my Winter tires.
I feel bullet proof. Even though I know I need to be careful.
I have hardly slipped at all (when not trying to).
I feel bullet proof. Even though I know I need to be careful.
I have hardly slipped at all (when not trying to).
02-01-2012, 09:24 PM
#35
Rowing my own
This may appear off-topic, but it ties into the snow and ice performance, which is my main question. I'd be interested in your take on things. I picked up my '09 TL (SH-AWD w/ Tech) in December. My criteria going into car shopping was 1. AWD, and 2. room in the back seats for kids carseats.
Narrowed it down to a 2011 Subaru Outback, Limited w/ Multimedia Package (Black in color, and only 13,500 km) and the TL. Settled on the TL (w/ 27,000 km) partially because I loved the look and performance, but also because the Subaru dealership mistakenly told me that the Outback was sold, when in fact it had gone home for the night with the manager. I had previously made an offer on it, and walked away when we were only $500 apart (I know, I know).
I know the SH-AWD system is geared to performance, but I do like how it's handled the Canadian winter thus far. But did I miss an opportunity with the Outback?
Narrowed it down to a 2011 Subaru Outback, Limited w/ Multimedia Package (Black in color, and only 13,500 km) and the TL. Settled on the TL (w/ 27,000 km) partially because I loved the look and performance, but also because the Subaru dealership mistakenly told me that the Outback was sold, when in fact it had gone home for the night with the manager. I had previously made an offer on it, and walked away when we were only $500 apart (I know, I know).
I know the SH-AWD system is geared to performance, but I do like how it's handled the Canadian winter thus far. But did I miss an opportunity with the Outback?
Subaru has the upper hand in the snow because of the equal length drive-shafts which are possible because of how the transmissions mates to the block. They let the power BEFORE all the e-nannies kick in distribute evenly. The Outback with it's CVT however drives almost identical to the TL where it fights to send power front to back a bit.
All my other Subarus (as is the TL) were manual transmission cars which use a different differential setup and didn't have that symptom. I felt more comfortable in all my Legacy GT's and WRX's then I do in the Outback. To this day my 08 STI was still the best snow tank
Had Subaru given the newer Legacies a better multimedia package I'd have bought one, that and the new LGTs went to a cable actuated gear lever, which they didn't quite get right on their first shot (other then the 3rd gear issues, the TL which also uses cables is quite good in comparison)All that being said, it all comes down to the tire, I've had RWD cars on good snows, and AWD cars on crap. Give me tires over driven wheels any day of the week.
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sockpuppet (02-02-2012)
02-02-2012, 08:36 AM
#36
Burning Brakes
Well considering the other car in the garage is an '11 Outback 2.5i LTD I might be able to help you out here ....
Subaru has the upper hand in the snow because of the equal length drive-shafts which are possible because of how the transmissions mates to the block. They let the power BEFORE all the e-nannies kick in distribute evenly. The Outback with it's CVT however drives almost identical to the TL where it fights to send power front to back a bit.
All my other Subarus (as is the TL) were manual transmission cars which use a different differential setup and didn't have that symptom. I felt more comfortable in all my Legacy GT's and WRX's then I do in the Outback. To this day my 08 STI was still the best snow tank Had Subaru given the newer Legacies a better multimedia package I'd have bought one, that and the new LGTs went to a cable actuated gear lever, which they didn't quite get right on their first shot (other then the 3rd gear issues, the TL which also uses cables is quite good in comparison)
All that being said, it all comes down to the tire, I've had RWD cars on good snows, and AWD cars on crap. Give me tires over driven wheels any day of the week.
Subaru has the upper hand in the snow because of the equal length drive-shafts which are possible because of how the transmissions mates to the block. They let the power BEFORE all the e-nannies kick in distribute evenly. The Outback with it's CVT however drives almost identical to the TL where it fights to send power front to back a bit.
All my other Subarus (as is the TL) were manual transmission cars which use a different differential setup and didn't have that symptom. I felt more comfortable in all my Legacy GT's and WRX's then I do in the Outback. To this day my 08 STI was still the best snow tank
Had Subaru given the newer Legacies a better multimedia package I'd have bought one, that and the new LGTs went to a cable actuated gear lever, which they didn't quite get right on their first shot (other then the 3rd gear issues, the TL which also uses cables is quite good in comparison)All that being said, it all comes down to the tire, I've had RWD cars on good snows, and AWD cars on crap. Give me tires over driven wheels any day of the week.
02-02-2012, 01:16 PM
#37
Rowing my own
Snow tires on an good 4wd system that can lock the diffs is obviously the best. Snow tires on an AWD is almost just as good. Snow tires on a RWD is not as good, etc. My Forester was a frikkin tank in the last few years storms. My G would have been useless because the snow would have been half-way up the radiator.
What I was trying to say is I'd rather have a RWD on snows then a AWD car on summers
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