docboy

FWIW, ALG in 2010 gave Acura the "Luxury Brand Residual Value Award."

ALG in 2011 then gave the 2011 Acura TL "Residual Value Award for Best Near Luxury Car"
https://www.alg.com/ResidualValueAwards

Sounds like Acura has pretty good resale value to me

JM2010 SH-AWD

Hate it when those pesky facts get in the way of a good rant!

Stew4HD

Facts? What facts?

Hamma Tyme

Pretty amazing being the success of the E60 with record sales of the so called ugly duckling. If it was so ugly, why did BMW change practically nothing in design other then a few lights and updated electronics over the 6 years of the E60 run? Answer, sales. Why is it that even the Honda Accord has Qs from the E60 as well as other car makers? Bottom line, it's in the eyes of the beholder as long as they are buying.

If it were the "economy", why the change with the G4? Is Acura going to run with the 4G for it's normal 5-6 years? The 2012 proves they are not and reality set in they lost buyers.

I'm not hating Acura, I'm just stating either fact or based of sales of the TL.
Being an Ex Acura owner, I'm waiting to see what Acura does and maybe I'll be back.

Hamma Tyme

I never should had made the statement of lower resale of Acura cars. I will admit they have a solid resale, but the 4G TL more then likely will suffer lower resale then the rest of the Acura line. I'm sure I can make that statement being the 09-11 sales were dismal to say the least.

Although you must agree, it's pretty hard to make a resale statement for a 2011 TL in early 2012. Do you think that award could possibly hold true after a 3 year lease? IMHO, I don't think so.

sddale

I haven't made any references to Acura so I'll just ignore the last part of your response. I was only responding to someone's comment that BMW stuck with their design which isn't really true otherwise they would not have had such a radical change in the F10. They designed the F10 as if the E60 never existed.

Hamma Tyme

Maybe I confused you when responding, sorry. As far as sticking with a design, how long should a car company go before making a change? The F10chassis is much stiffer, they changed the lines with a new look which basically gave the same body style additional edges, better electronics, a new suspension, new steering, changed up the lights, interior, and a few other items. BMW even stretched it a few inches and added 300lbs which I'm not a fan. Actually the comparison of the E60 & F10 is much closer then the Acura G2 and G3 wouldn't you agree? Not that it's a bad thing, but being I had a G2 and wasn't ready for a new car till the G4 came out, I left for BMW after I saw the new design although I still like the 3G. Please remember, the E60 was getting long in the tooth running for 7 years while the only thing that changed was lights, electronics, and front and rear defusers. The rest of the car did not change at all. New designs is what companies do to change things up, but also for the improvements you can't see. Most car companies model cycle runs 6 or 7years before any large change, although we might see it shortened moving forward.

Bottom line, it's all about building more units and selling them.

sddale

The 5 series typically goes by a 7 year model cycle and the E60 was no different. What you don't seem to get is that BMW's design cycle goes by a major change to an evolutionary change for every two generations. They changed that with the current model. If the E60 were so well loved there would probably be cries that the F10 is too radical a change like there were when the E39 was replaced but I don't think there was much of that. I haven't been keeping up much on the 5 since I sold mine so maybe there were a few people like that. What I do know is that every review of the F10 was that the styling was a change for the better and that it takes on styling cues from the E39. To me it seems like 3, 5 and 7 have gone back to the "same sausage, different lengths" which isn't so bad with a sharp design.

Edit: Not every review said that it takes styling cues from the E39 but I read it a couple of times.

Hamma Tyme

I agree, but mind you there are still E60 owners who feel the look of the F10 is too conservative while others love the design. My opinion is a more refined 5 Series in every way. I see the E39 and E60 in the new F10, but haven't read it. One thing that holds true, the kidney grills and now the angel eyes will always remain as a standard in BMW design while other car companies are going with the Christmas light theme in the likes of Porsche, Benz, Audi, and some assorted American cars which is getting tired looking already. I hope the new G5 doesn't try to jump the beaten light wagon.

jspagna1

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

My wife went to Bed Bath & Beyond yesterday to buy a new coffee pot. When she walked out of the store there was a guy about late 40's early 50's with his two young teenage daughters staring at my wife's car. He told her what a nice car she had and that he loved it. His daughters were laughing at their father and the way he was acting.
That really says it all. People are either going to like the car or hate it. I say to each his own. Oh I also so this on Yahoo Autos today. Click on the link and drag down on the page and look to the right hand side for the page at the Top Rated Sedans and look at what's #1.


http://autos.yahoo.com/news/

Hamma Tyme

Well, those cars are at a certain price point not exceeding 32k give or take a few shillings. But a Kia??? That's it, I'm selling the Beemer, forget the 5G TL, I'm going to buy that Kia!

Regarding the sedans, who's writing the reviews???

sddale

Is it the top rated sedan based on all 8 reviews?

n-spring

I can only speak for myself, but I happened to marginally like the '09 TL when it came out. I thought it looked much better in person and in lighter colors. That is ... until my dad said he thought it was the ugliest POS he'd ever laid eyes on. For better or worse, that turned me off of the design for good.

I'm in the camp that likes the toned down design of the '12 much better, and my dad agrees.

n-spring

Yeah, all 8 of 'em.

halls120

I initially didn't like the 4G - so much so that I had decided to hold on to my 2004 until the 5G came out. When Acura announced the 2012 would be "refreshed," I thought I'd take a look. I did, and while I don't think the 2012 is ugly, it actually makes the 2011 look better, so I surprised myself and went out and got one before they were gone - and I don't regret it one bit.

ostrich

As a previous owner of a 2010 TL SH-AWD with Tech and a current owner of a 2012 TL SH-AWD Elite, I find that while I really love the 6AT of the 2012 car, and that the front grille of the 2012 car is much less "refined" and pleasant looking, I really miss the edgy styling of my 2010 car. Both the front and rear of the 2009-2011 cars are so much edgier looking that I really prefer that look overall. I just loved how aggressive my car looked!!! Now with the 2012 car, the front end is very pretty, but the rear end is just plain bland.

Regardless of the looks, I am really enjoying the 6AT so much more. I also love the fact that I can get those wonderful 19" wheels with all season tires.

atruedsgb

I agree with the article, for the most part. As mid-level luxury sedan styling has become more and more vanilla/bland (i.e. current gen 5-series, E-class), I have come to truly appreciate my 4G TL's sharp styling. Up where I live and work, other cars just seem to...well, blend in

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

FM745

I had the exact same experience - I had a 2004 TL and initially didn't appreciate the looks of the 2009-2011 and waited for the 2012. Afetr seeing the 2012, I actually liked the 2011 more (though I like the rear bumper of the 2012, but I like the lights of the 2011).

If I were an Acura designer (god help us) I would have done this:

-kept the front grill of the 2009-2011, but would have made the top part along the hood line the same color as the car (i.e. to make the grill look smaller than it is).
-make all of the models (base or SH-AWD) with the same front bumper/foglight area (either 2009-2011 or 2012). If differentiating was necesary between the base and SG-AWD, then I would maybe use different chrome accents
-make the front grill and trunk trim midnight chrome (or the gunmetal look as an option)
-use the 2012 bumper, but with the 2009-2011 tail lights
-use the 2012's 6 speed

Don't worry - I am not quitting my day job.

cp3117

Interesting article but i dont agree that it set the brand back or that nothing should have been done. The brand was set back when they gave up implementing their dealership improvements and their tier 1 goals several years ago.

I know many people joke about the 4G design and sometimes compare it to vehicles like the Edsel but Acura could learn something from history.

---The Edsel was introduced at the start of a economic recession (the late 50's vs 2008)
---It was priced very close to some of Fords other models. (TL vs TSX)
---Poor marketing and Market research.
---Majority of the media and Public hated the design.
---Plus many other reasons

The One thing that really saved the TL was that it wasnt an all new name or model unlike the Edsel and the 3G reputation probably helped save the model more than people know. Just look at the ZDX that was introduced at the same time with a new name and meets all of the criteria i mentioned above. It will be interesting to see if there is going to be a 2G ZDX or if its cancelled like the Edsel was.

IMO the design and the economy where the main factors for the 4G's issues. Research has shown that the exterior was the main reason why people where rejecting the Acura marque, followed by its interior.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/22/j...-reject-acura/

When you see that research and look at what has happened to vehicles in the past, I find it hard to say that Acura should just sit around and not do anything about the styling issues.

The Economy has another big impact when you look at the majority of people who look at Acura's. Edmunds did some research where they found that majority of people who purchase Acura's shop mainstream brands with luxury brands being looked at secondary.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...#ixzz1ANmmIRn7

When you realise that when a recession hits the majority of people that are hit the hardest are the middle to lower income earners, this starts to make sense why sales could be down.

An example is here in Canada where true luxury brands like BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus etc actually increased in sales after the fall of 2008 where Acura sales plummeted and huge incentives and discounts are now needed to move even some of their best sellers. Audi has very little incentives, waiting lists for their vehicles and now outsells Acura even though Acura years ago would easily outsell them 2-1. When the recession is over and buying confidence increases in the middle income bracket im sure you will see Acura sales increase alot being this is the mainstream market that is generally affected by the economy, while the luxury brands will probably not change much or have slight increases.



I think you can be safe with that statement here in Canada but im not sure about the USA. Acura had the KBB award in 2009 (in Canada) but hasnt come close since probably due to the high incentives/discounts and low sales here.

You also have to remember that their research I believe (Not sure) is based off of the last 4 or so model years which means they are probably still using some 3G data for their results. It will be interesting to see if the 4G in the USA still gets the award in the next year or two when no 3G data is involved.

saturno_v

^^^^


I agree with some of your points......the main issue for the TL was/is the exterior styling...then you have the recession and the fact that the car moved upmarket (and upsized).

I don't know about Canada but here in Seattle Audi did offer incentives...when we shopped for my wife's car in Dec we test drove the Q5, supposedly a huge sales success...the salesperson pestered us after that as any other manufacturers.


You are assuming that the potential buyer of the A4 is a true luxury buyer while the TL buyer is not....they belong to the same earning band/demographics....so the bad results for Acura are related mainly to styling choices, same (in reverse) for Audi's success...is not because typical Audi buyers are "true" luxury customers that weathered the recession better.

Again, I don't know about Canada but here in the US, incentives or not, Acura still outsells Audi and the TL did outsell the A4 (2010 results)...when I got my TL in October (Seattle) I had to fight tooth and nail (almost a month) to get the price I wanted.


Audi sales are bottom heavy, entry level luxury (Q5, A3, A4), as you go upmarket even in the A6/5 Series segment, they fall off the map....again here in the US.

NwTSXmt

Great article...He nailed it..Now go buy the TL YOU like...You cant loose...ps I did see a Acura aprroaching me from the rear and thought it was a new TL...it was just a 4 banger TSX

JM2010 SH-AWD

TL sales were falling off considerably from their peak before the 4G was unveiled, so some of these points are not free from doubt. 3G sales the last couple of years were dropping - the car was late in its development stage, the economy was beginning to slow and the segment simply had a lot more players than it did in 2004, including the G, the CTS and others.

It's easy to armchair quarterback and say TL sales are down because of 4G styling. I don't deny that some folks didn't like the edgier 4G styling - but there were many other factors at play too, including a sizable price increase, where the top of the line TL moved from 39K to 43K. It's simply a lot more complex than some make it out to be.

compewterbleu

The price increase coupled with the economy is crazy.

winstrolvtec

Very true, there was a report floating around that suggested Acura and MB were/are the only two luxury brands who's sales percentages through their entire line are much more balanced. Meaning something like, not a single model makes up more than let's say 30% of total sales (not an actual fugure). Where most of the others get around 50% of their sales from their entry model.

The article also went on to suggest that due to this, one could make a case that they are doing a better job of catering to those with more money than the others. That makes sense when half a brands sales come from sub $40k cars with the small engine and few extra features and options.

Also, Acura's starting prices are not drastically less compared to the others and in some models they are higher because of the amount of standard features included. Likewise, there was a statistic from another article that had Acura's lease percentages at around 50% of all sales and most of the other luxury brands at around 75%. So there is strong evidence there that Acura owners don't necessarily spend less on their cars. I know for what I pay monthly (by choice) that I could have leased almost anything in the $50k range.

This is actually very contrasting info to the idea that Acura suffers more due to economic conditions because they are more aligned with mainstream products and prices compared to other luxury brands. I don't know if we would ever have the proper info and data to know for sure.

jspagna1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ostrich
As a previous owner of a 2010 TL SH-AWD with Tech and a current owner of a 2012 TL SH-AWD Elite, I find that while I really love the 6AT of the 2012 car, and that the front grille of the 2012 car is much less "refined" and pleasant looking, I really miss the edgy styling of my 2010 car. Both the front and rear of the 2009-2011 cars are so much edgier looking that I really prefer that look overall. I just loved how aggressive my car looked!!! Now with the 2012 car, the front end is very pretty, but the rear end is just plain bland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atruedsgb
I agree with the article, for the most part. As mid-level luxury sedan styling has become more and more vanilla/bland (i.e. current gen 5-series, E-class), I have come to truly appreciate my 4G TL's sharp styling. Up where I live and work, other cars just seem to...well, blend in



Me to!!!

saturno_v

Winstrolvtec


We need to specify that RL sales are disastrous...so maybe sales are more balanced within the other models.

It is true. the German brands are the most leased in the premium segment.

What a lot of people do not realize is that Acura is still one of the most profitable in the luxury segment.....the brand has serious issues that urgently need to be adressed but in the meantime they still minting money.....their entire lineup is made with basically 2 engines (the 3.5 and 3.7 V6 J series) and the 4 cylinder of the TSX and RDX (naturally aspirated and turbo) and 5 models largely based on high volume Honda platforms.

Audi, for example, with a much larger model range, expensive dedicated platform and halo cars stil sell less in the US.


Acura has problems for sure....but is still making very good money at the moment...

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

^ acura is making very good money because they don't have PROBLEMS.....they have always been ahead of their time ........people just don't know what they want.......and always find something to complain about..............people that i heard from complained about the TL's size ...ACURA makes the inside of the TL bigger and still keeps great handling in my opinion as compared to other vehicles in that size range.....people say it's to big......people want futuristic looking cars as most cars at the auto shows....and some movies ....they make a car that looks more advanced than the others .........now they are ugly..........280 horses for a base model 305 for the top model ....there i can agree with people on because infiniti is giving 330 hp with thier g37 coupe/sedan and the m .......but even still comparing the 5 series 528 which has less than 260 hp and the 535 which has 300 hp and are priced higher than the tl REALLY why would i look at a 5 series ?

as i say in most of my posts going to bat for thr 4G TL people need to do exactly what they have been doing .....looking at the cars they want and not paying attentio to the cars they don't period ......

i think ACURA is doing what they set out to do ...and just as anyone who steps away from the crowd...THE NORM they get criticized for it .......i think remodling the 2012 was a stupid move ...but who am i ..........i am not going to purchase enough of thier cars for them to meet the numbers...........

the sad thing is now that everybody was crying about the 4G they are probably not going to try to go more proggresive with thier next models and end up bieng .......a cookie cutter square basic brand as most of these other ....companies......i hope they don't though...........................because the they will lose way more business than they think they did bringing out the 4G................................................

TechnoCat

Halo cars aren't supposed to sell well, but the R8 is exceeding everyone's expectations. Audi also did very well in profits this year too. The numbers really do bounce around. Audi sold about twice as many A4s as Acura sold TLs in Canada in the last month, and the A4/A5 growth in the U.S. was quite good, keeping in mind that that A5 cannibalized from the A4.

Acura does have two big advantages over the Germans - price/feature ratio and reliability.

saturno_v

Technocat

Keep in mind that the A4 price starts at almost (excluding the S4 of course) 4K below the TL and tops at $1000 over the least expensive TL (we are talking here in the US), MSRP figures.

And the A4 has the station wagon trim which the TL lacks.

It doesn't surprise me that is certain locale or demographic it sells more.

Another big advantage is that is uses mainly high volume Honda platforms and not dedicated ones....it helps profitability.


Halo cars sometimes sells very well and help pulling the lesser models and the brand in general anyway....for example the presence of the S4 helps the A4 image.


This is what Acura lacks....halo models and upper luxury ones.

Glashub

Great thread. I respect all of your opinions. Just saw that a vintage Edsel is fetching $200,000. I wonder what the same year Ford Crown Victoria is worth? Maybe I should put my 2010 on blocks and store it for 30 years and get an Audi. Oh, never mind. I'd be dead by then. Think I'll just enjoy the very focused virtues of my TL. Like Apple products....it just works and does what it's advertised to do.

Last night I had some hot BMW on my ass as I was getting on the 10 freeway. Punched the TL, left him in the dust, but the beauty was the way I was able to switch lanes quickly and firmly...like the car had magnets.

Mr. BMW apparently couldn't believe it and came flying up next to me and looked at me. Does a few whoop-de-woos and then drifts back to me. My wife said, "Honey, don't get into anything with this guy."

I told her that I’m based in reality and realize that ultimately I couldn't compete with that BMW but then again I probably paid 15K less for a car he seemed to feel threatened by.

Maybe BMW guys are a little insecure because it seems everyone in LA has some year/variation of a BMW.

Stew4HD

Indeed, I can't spit around here without hitting a BMW, it seems. I look out in the parking lot and see 11 from my vantage point and that is only a portion of the parking lot... I see 1-3G TL, 1-2G and no 4G's (mine is on the other side of the lot, covered).

compewterbleu

From many articles I read the TSX is poised against the A4....not the TL. And they also mention the TSX as a not so entry level car, more for your dollar than Audi.
Couple to that they factored in reliability being more pronounced with the current economic landscape.
Audi lovers love your Audi's...I use too love VDub's and Audi brand, however it made no sense to me to shell out bucks just to say I drive a German car while it was having constant reliability problems.
Drove a Audi Prestige when a family member brought theirs home, compares to my ex's 2011 TSX, the TL has moved on to another level.