Sonor Kid 2

Thanks for the feedback guys, I didn't mean to come off in my last comment too harshly, I am a big Acura fan regardless of my feelings on the grill.
My sig shows my beautiful CL and I have an 2008 TL base as well if that gives you any idea.
I have posted negatively about the grill in the past, not as much recently to be honest and I do love the new TL in so many areas and yes we are going to feel hot and cold about the front, it's still a great car regardless.

YetiTL

Nah...no worries...this is the Internet afterall, we're supposed to argue over insignificant things (performance wise I mean) like old hags. If all the have to argue is a grille then I'm happy makes you think how great the car is!

Now if Acura could only develop a DI supercharged V6....

chaiwala

I didn't read the whole thread but Acura does need to do something about the grill. Obviously its subjective when it comes to looks, some like it and some don't. Let me say this though, I have never ever seen a dealer who go out of their way to change the look of the grill by paint matching it to the car either whole or just the middle part. That in it self speaks volumes as to what the majority think about the grill. I have seen dealers add rims, exhaust, spoilers to entice buyers but never once seen what Acura dealers are doing around my neck of the wood. It is a big deal and Acura needs to address the issue.

winstrolvtec

I would like to add that the grill is probably only half the issue that people make it out to be. I used to be in a similar sales type industry as auto sales for a long time. When you're in such a business and it is really impacted by the general economic state and population morale in regards to spending money unnecessarily and things are slower than ever it becomes the business of excuses and everything from the grill to the weather is now the issue but really it's only the scape goat since everyone starts having insecurities and second thoughts about everything job or career related, but primarily the product becomes the main thing in question. So in reality is the grill really so much the problem to the extent that many dealers make it out to be?

canddmeyer

While I'll agree the grill is ugly, I'd bet when the grill goes the deals go too.

Olu

Yeah, I'm sure the deals are all about the grill and nothing to do about the recession.

In fact having just shopped for the car, Acura was the ONLY dealership offering significant discounts....NOT

mr.Honda F1

This is the people nature when they can not afford the thig they start to complain about it , and the only thing they have to complain about is the grille because this is what they read and hear about it when it came "the heaters".
ACURA will take the real 4G owner in any survy not the hanging out guys inter the show room to spend some time.
the GRILLE must carry on its unique.

KeithL

I don't agree, the dealer knows the feedback they get and how it affects their sales. They can;t even get some customers to test drive it becasue they don't like the front end. I was so on the fence about buying becasue I still hate the grill, but the ride won me over. More people buy a car becasue they liek the way it looks than enything else. I compromised on the front end becasue the rest of the car was so damn great. They dealer even mentionde if they coudl get people to drive it some would change their minds. Honestly if I was not already an Acura owner and they came out witht he 4G TL I would never have gone to drive one the front ends turns me off. Sure some love it and others like it, but I also think they came out with the midnight grill optons this year becasue they know the grill is turning some away.

jjsC5

If you think the looks of a car don't effect it's sales, you are living in a fantasy world. I've said it before, but I hang out with a bunch of hard-core car guys who buy a lot of cars. Right now, a few of them own cars that compete directly with the TL, and two of us owned 3G TL's. Everyone one of them hates the front end (and back) and have said they would never buy one because of it.

It's kind of like women. If you see a fat ugly women in a club, you are not going to go ask her to dance. You might be missing a real gem, but you'll never know because you'll never give it a try.

DLeeWebb

I seem to have been in the minority since I bought the TL, but I liked the grille when I bought it and I still like it just fine. I hope they don't change it. I liked the previous TL's from the back and side profile, but the reason that I didn't consider a TL before the 2009's is that I thought that the front was boring and like so many other cars. Long live the Power Plenum!

winstrolvtec

Everyone has different tastes but there is something in every car's style that I and probably everyone else could do without, would change or really just don't like but I don't let it affect my whole perception of the car overall. The new E class is a particularly good looking car but I don't really care for the rear taillight shape, nothing I can do about it, still like it overall. I like the overall TL style but am not crazy about the hood portion of the grill but I don't mind it. The grill has simple options for improvment that really make it look attractive and unique, where in many other vehicles cases things I don't care for can't be change or modified so easily.

DeMAN

First; mr.Honda F1, You are certainly not the only one that can afford to buy a car (TL). I posted earlier that there were other cars that I was consider that were equal cost, yet I chose not to buy them because of those car not having the features I wanted.

KeithL, One of my coworkers felt the same as you after driving the the 09 TL. She was driving a 07 MDX at the time of using the 09 TL as a loaner.
She decided however to buy an SUV (Buick Enclave).

Oswald Vater

I've owned 3 TL's (2k, 04 base, 08 Tech) and would like to own a 4th in 2011 when my current lease is up but I am having a tough time getting past the front blade. Hopefully Acura will get the hint from most of their customers/floor traffic and tone it down a bit by 2011 like Subaru had to when the grill on the Tribeca tanked their sales. Otherwise the rest of the 4g's looks are ok in my opinion.

BEAR-AvHistory

The recession is at fault?

3 Series - 9833
C class - 4253
A4 - 3823
G sedan - 3341
G coupe - 1562
TL - 3003

winstrolvtec

^What is your point? The TL has cleaned house on many of these cars all year. Olu's statement is correct which is in regards to deals not sales. It's the same reason they are giving away G's and charge virtually no interest on top of a great lease rate, particularly so late in the model year, on Lexus IS models, also why Audi is discounting preorder, limted production 2010 S4's, and why a 3 series can be had for invoice or a little over where that was never the case before. Guess they all have style issues as well.

Olu

Thanks, your reply was much kinder then mine would have been

BEAR-AvHistory

The point is that a car the fanbois say the TL competes against & costs more has sold 3x as many units in the period mentioned.

Why is the recession a factor with TL sales any more or less then the other cars on the list some of which are more expensive?

IIRC the more expensive 3 & C have outsold the TL every month this year by a wide margin, shouldn't the biggest bang for the buck be kicking their butt in these "hard times"?

YetiTL

I think all of you are correct...up to a point. Frankly, I don't know all the factors that can explain why some other brands fare better than others. We could argue about the following factor:
-Absolute performance of models
-Relative performance of models against others in segment;
-Styling, inside and outside;
-Status or perceived statuts;
-Incentives and special deals;
-lease/sale financing rates;
-others internal factors: reliability, perceived value, maintenance fees;
-Target demographics and the effect of the financial crisis;
-etc.

My point is: for me, the TL represents a great value. But it seems people, as a whole, preferred BMW because of a pletora of factors such as killer leases deals with no maintenance fees and the statuts of driving a fine german car.

For me, I couldn't justify the 6-8K $CDN between a BMW series 3/ A4 and TL. I didn't have an Infiniti/ Audi dealer in my city either and I need lots of legroom for my very tall frame (6'4'' with tall legs and size 16 feet, I need lots of room and I can't even drive manual because of the size of my feet! ). So for me the TL was the best value.

And one last point: sales numbers don't say is your sales are profitable. I don't know if BMW is happy to offer killer leases and rates and if it's profitable for the company. I don't know if Acura is making good money also...I just wanted to point that out.

My reply wasn't directed toward anybody, so no need to feel attacked the slightest.

My 2 cents!
-YetiTL

BEAR-AvHistory

Generally agree.

That being said the thread was about KeithL hearing about the salespeople being unhappy because the beak was driving away, no pun intended, customers.

This was a pervasive enough issue that Honda commissioned a study of the problem & came up with a quick fix, the new sport grill.

The Kool-Aid drinkers think they know more about why the sales are off, none of which seem to have anything to do with the beak, then either the guys whose livelihoods depend on selling them or the company that makes them.

YetiTL

IIRC, there's a saying that goes like this: "the confidence of amateurs is the envy of professionnals".

While the reasons are numerous, I agree the styling is probably a good one because when you are ready to put 40k+ for a car, you can claerly make a choice not based uniquely on value or economy. Personnal tastes and all the other "intangibles" become much more important.

So what there's left to say to Acura management? Great car but make it more to the tastes of this segment buyers/leasers? I guess this is it...

RANT: And to think of what it could have been with a more stylish exterior and slightly smaller/lighter exterior proportions...

Olu

Not sure what your problem is. Just because some one likes the grille they're fanbois and koolaid drinkers? Let's act our age shall we?

1. My statement was about why Acura was/is making deals. EVERY DEALERSHIP is making deals due to the recession. The grille is not the only reason (if it is at all).

2. Absolute sale of units means nothing. What's important is if Acura is gaining or losing ground on competitors. Until this last month they had been doing pretty well. There's a recent thread that partially explains why the last month showed a decline in TL sales.

3. Absolute sales numbers means nothing to most people who love and drive their cars. I'd prefer that there were less TLs on the road. The 3g has become pretty ubiquitous a fate I hope doesn't befall the 4g.

BEAR-AvHistory

I don't think you have anything to worry about on that score.

KeithL

I don't think the recession is to blame here, it was inventory, many dealers in GA had nearly naked lots and with no inventory they were not discounting what they had as much further driving some sales away.

winstrolvtec

Aside from price, the TL is not a direct competitor to anything in the premium entry segment. Just look at all the cars in class, the TL does not fit that mold, no question. Bringing up another point that the TL is really fuzzy in regards to it's purpose, since the Acura sedan lineup is moving up segments. They cannot fully market this car appropriately while the current RL is still around. It's not what people are looking for in the segment but it is comparable and cross shopped due to it's price.

In comparison FWD and AWD sales in either class combined don't make up half of what RWD's do and they carry the least amount of appeal in the first place. Most entry class makers tend to produce a broader range of models making them more appealing. Three times the sales can easily be attributed to three times the models, that makes sense.

Deals are everywhere because of the recession but that has very little direct impact on sales figures in brand comparison because they are all discounted. A sales impact comparison due to the recession would make no sense either, they all suffer, but it makes even less sense to declare the TL the supposed to be automatic winner in hard times, incorrectly assuming or making it appear to be at a greater disposition than others and further implying it's due to general distaste for the grill, which is not true. The reason, a BMW 3 or MB C can be had for less money than either TL. That is in actuality a plus to BMW and MB, it's only a plus to Acura when loaded but it is a recession afterall and most of their buyers rarely load up anyway.

At the same time I will not make it appear that the TL is not afffected at all by the grill and I don't believe anyone is suggesting that it isn't but it's not nearly as bad as most think and that's probably why it has not yet been changed. One thing that can't be debated so much is the lack of late model year production and availability for the TL in comparison to it's competition.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

I have no idea what sales are for the new version since its debut but Acura had hopes to sell 70k a year. If they sold 3000 last month, thats not even close.

http://www.brandweek.com/bw/content_...cb7dcf4ba2c9c3

Rossick predicted that the TL would do well despite it being "a tough environment to launch a car."AHM has set a sales goal of 70,000 units for the model year.The TL was introduced five years ago, she said, and "the most important part of the campaign is to show that it is all new and redesigned and to re-create the enthusiasm and aspiration for the car."

BEAR-AvHistory

The trend line is 50-55% of target.

cp3117

I know everyone lately has been using the inventory idea as the reason for the TL's lack of sales, but i dont really believe it.

Since the recession started last fall all manufactures have been making cut backs and reducing production resulting in less inventory....this isnt just an Acura issue.

While people have said their local Acura dealers are empty others are saying the opposite. In my area the Acura dealer is full of 09 models and even 2 - 2008 models (mind you there not TL's). With the 2010 models arriving they are now having a space issue where to store their product.

BMW and MB are all average to below average and Audi has zero inventory. their sold section is bigger than their inventory and luckily the 2010 models are arriving but most are all pre-sold stock. They havent had a S5 in stock for over a year and expect the same for the new S4 which are all basically selling at MSRP. (Their stock is either selling before its built or while in-transit).

While I dont believe the grill is the sole issue for the TL's sales, I do think the overall styling is a factor plus that the 4G TL costs more than the previous generation and consumers are realizing that the value isnt there as it use to be.

While Acura does technically aim the 4G at cars like the 3 and 5 series, A4 and A6 etc. Its main market is still clearly the 3 series, A4 etc. While all manufactures where having big discounts and sales, Acura was doing the same and the 4G still seems to be selling less than the previous generation and less than Acuras own goals.

While the economy has been a factor, why is it manufactures like Audi etc can still make huge sale gains while offering little or no special discounts and horrible lease rates etc.......There has to be more to the TL's sales numbers than just the economy and inventory.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Was at the dealer last week buying some parts; there was only one 4G there and it was in the showroom and it was FWD.

There's a myriad of factors to be included when trying to figure out why the sales figures are the way they are.

SpicyMikey

^^ No doubt. Plus, you really can't look at sales in one month to draw any conclusions. Need to trend it over 6 or more. Acura DID indeed underestimate on the new TL. They have generally run low of 09's before the 10's are ready. That has hurt end of MY sales. Of course some areas may have supply but that seems to be the exception.

On the flip side, Lexus over produced IS250's and was heavy on them coming into the stretch. As a result they have been giving them away and offering ridiculously low lease offers. That no doubt helped there sales in August. Hard to draw conclusions from one month. Inventory and incentives will skew the numbers.

KeithL

True, but I think Acura cut too much that had so much inventory in early spring and probably thought sales woudl not be as good as they even were and they were caught short. I drive by all make car lots and I see plenty of Infiniti's on their lots, same with Lexus and such, but for sime reason Acura skipped a few months of production and the dealer lots are low, I mean like less than 20% of their normal inventory to the point the dealer was complaining that he can't get some cars for some customers, even trying to do dealer swaps.

bagbklyn

Yeah just leased an FWD last night picking up saturday. I went to another dealership last week he gave me the price for an AWD and said I can't get you or find you that car. Went to the biggest dealership on long island,ny and they only had WDP. They said acura cut their production to early and they have been trying to move the 09 FWD's but that is even dwindling now. Color selection is hard to come by and the only things they have left on the lots are the non-tech which they said once everyone sees say then rather go with an accord.

winstrolvtec

When it comes to inventory you can't compare an order based inventory like the Germans to that of Acura's and the others allocation systems. It's pretty safe to say that almost no car is hitting it's sales target and the TL's was introduced before the TSX V6 was confirmed and it is very likely the sales quota was overestimated just to be safe since they knew well what they were getting into.

It's unfortunate for Acura because regardless of what last months sales numbers might suggest the TL sales were actually beginning to be pick up more recently. Obviously the last few months of sales outdid their production and we see many new members now on board or planning to buy. Some might see plenty of inventory at one or two dealers but because the overall inventory is low they are not willing to swap and that still affects sales at empty nearby dealers. So basically just because a few dealers are full doesn't mean there is no inventory issue. At least with more 2010 model year buyers now waiting including the 6MT hold outs, Acura should see a decent first quarter for the 2010's.

cp3117

If your looking for a specific color combo then I can see where you may have a problem at this time of the year. This is a problem though with all makes and models as the build out dates for most manufactuers happened months ago......this is not specific just to Acura.

I just checked the Long Island area on the internet at lunch for 2009 TL's and almost every dealer i checked had 5-10 SHAWD's and some had 30++ FWD models on their lots. Many had various color combos but if you where looking for some rare color combo I can see where you had trouble.

For fun I quickly checked other major centres in the eastern region and all had plenty of 2009 stock in SHAWD or FWD. So once again I am sure there are a few rare incidents where dealers are low on stock but dealer trades would easily cure that problem.

Once again a quick check will show that there is lots of inventory out there so I cant really see this being the issue for lower sales. I think Acura did have some agressive campaign on recently that ended in August and this is probably the more logical reason for the lower sales and why they where higher months ago when the sales campaign was on.

KeithL

And I just checked several dealers here in GA and one had 5 TLs total, the other had 7, the next had 3 that is most of Metro Atlanta, going a little farther out finds a dealer with 6 then another with 5 and another with 7 .. and so on and none had any AWD. Like I said the SE had a drought of cars. We're talking less than 50 new TLs in the entire state! Six dealers totalling 33 new TLs, my dealer used to stock more than that alone! Then I look at the 3 closest Infiniti dealers and get a total of 62 G37 sedans wihtin 20 miles of my house, I think Acura had massive inventory problems that hurt August and will probably still hurt September sales.

winstrolvtec

For what it's worth I wouldn't excpect the Nort East to have any significant shortage and naturally because that is the main market for this car. They will not likely swap to other parts of the country because there is nothing to trade. That could cause a/the problem.

chaiwala

You also have to take into account that a LOT of consumers don't like to buy a first year model because of the myth(and some what true) that they are not the best built vehicles and the manufacturers work hard to resolve these problems for the next model year.

BUT, the sales are definately down due to the polarizing grill. How am I so sure about this? Well all the dealership I called and/or visited, I used the grill to my advantage as a selling ploy. It did work and EVERY dealer admitted that sales have hurt due to the styling of the car and they have gone out of their way to paint the grill to sell more TL's.

It's not just the grill though that is hurting the sales but it's the WHOLE design of the vehicle that is. This is the first car that I know that has creases in the front and back which many people don't care for but more importantly it is the size of the car both length and width that has affected sales in my opinion. We all know that honda's are probably the most modded cars in the market and honestly, the 2009 Acura from the exterior looks more like a car that would not appease the "normal" Acura demographic population. From just looking at the car, it looks bloated thus people assume its going to be boring to drive and is most probably geared towards the older population. Combination of this and the grill(mostly this) has people running away. To me it seems that Acura tried to compromise and make this car appealing to both the young at heart and the ones who are young hearted and it seems at this junction they have failed.

bagbklyn

When I went into two dealerships both said they were salesman for over 20 years, they have know acura to not overproduce cars, but with the TL they messed in the production. Like others have said when you go into the lot and the dealerships floor has a lot of empty holes, its a problem. When dealers tell you we have to wait for the 2010's to be delivered that isn't a good sign because now you have lost your bargaining edge. I wouldn't want to take that chance.