Colin

So What? The point of the business is to sell cars. There is no other way to empirically measure success or failure.

This is why I was saying that this board represents a sliver of the owners so whether you like it, or hate it, makes no difference. I really don't care.

What I do care about is when detractors state opinion as fact to support their case, or list inaccuracies as fact. Your arguments are poorly constructed and filled with way too much emotion and I'm finding it hard to discuss this with you. Sorry.

rksokol

Everyone in my office knows what I drive, and most are aware of my affiliation with AZ and my "passion" for the TL. I've shown them the pics of the 4G soon to come out, and I hear:

1. cowcatcher
2. parrot beak
3. can opener
4. bucky beaver

They are all talking about the same thing: that fugly grille!

Legend2TL

Actually no, BMW sales of the E60 have increased from the previous E39. I agree that it's not possible to determine how many lost sales there were, but the steady increase in sales on the latest generation BMW's have proven the Bangle cynics wrong. There was however a rushed mid-model update to the E65 (current 7 series due to a greater than expected drop in sales after the initial year).

In terms of the next gen 5 series, it's on schedule for a 7 year design cycle. IMO it looks improved on the current 5, but certainly hasn't gone back to a retro styling either.

I'm no fan of the Bangle BMW's but their sales have proven to be strong despite all the whining from BMW purists.

nhousepro

That's your opinion!

Costco

So what are we supposed to do, sit around and twiddle our thumbs and wait until the 4G TL is actually on sale, and for the sales numbers to be released to start discussing it? If every discussion on this forum was completely subjective, it would be one hell of a borefest. I guess we should all just discuss prices and sales figures only and all nod our heads in agreement with everything since there's only one right answer.

I'm confused as to how to can even discuss anything with anyone on this forum. As cliche as it sounds, everyone has an opinion here. If you find it hard to discuss things with me, then why bother bringing up my post in the first place, when its just opinion? I'm no market analyst, sales manager, or anything like that, so I really don't care how well something sells, I'm a consumer, and likewise I'll discuss what I'm looking for in a car.

By your means of rating success or failure, the S2000 would be a failure, since in that market segment the 350Z outsells it roughly 10-to-1. Makes sense to you, doesn't it?

mikiTL

You mean Mazda MX-5 Miata, not 350Z. And yes, Honda deemed S2000 a failure in terms of sales numbers. Tho it is one beautiful car. Just goes to show that a car can look fantastic and still not meet sales expectations

Legend2TL

Actually you're both wrong the target for the S2000 was the Z3 and Porsche Boxster. I've never read anywhere a Honda person claiming it's sales numbers a failure (not the case for the NSX where Honda board members expressed dismay over it's expensive manufacturing). The S2000 has been successful in that it introduced Honda into a true sports coupe convertible with extremely high levels of handling and performance. Being light and extremely responsive. The S2000 has a exclusive engine, drivetrain, and a chassis shared with no other. To me when I look at the interior and lack of features it seems expensive, but that was not it's intent in marketing it was all about a pure sports roadster.

Colin

Indeed, if you were to judge the S2000 by the same criteria that we were using in our TL discussion then the S2000 was a blockbuster because it outsold it's predecessor by leaps and bounds. After all, how many S800s did Honda sell?

BradE

I wish Acura had taken a page from Infiniti on the G37 sedan. They recognized the current design wasn't broke, only refreshed it with subtle cues instead of going off the freakin' reservation. I've got my 08 TL-S for the next few years, but if the 4G TL is still in it's present form when it's time for a new ride, I see a G37 in my future.

007TL-S

Beauty is in the eye of the BEHOLDER!....you perfer PLUS SIZE women!....I perfer VOLUPTOUS women!

fsttyms1

Most of you weren't around or have very short memories but the 3g wasn't perceived very well on this forum when it was first introduced either. While i dont think the grill on the 4g is that great to look at i think it will grow on people and that in person it will look better, just like the TSX

dseag2

Well said. BMW received major bashing from the auto press on the "Bangled" 5 Series, yet it sold extremely well. It was toned down after the intro of the 7 Series, which was also bashed but also outsold the previous generation. I doubt that BMW cared about the opinions of the "purists" when they were selling all they could produce.

Each automaker is trying to distinguish itself from the next. Audi has the new Big Mouth Bass grille, Nissan is using the cut-out headlights on the new Maxima and upcoming 370Z. Acura is using the "shield". They are also using a lot of cut lines just for effect (whether they work or not). Personally, I think the shield works better on the MDX than the TSX or new TL, but I don't find the TL's looks revolting. I actually think the rear-end is attractive, and the chrome back there will eventually be a non-issue just like the chrome spoiler on the G35/37.

Count me in among the many who loved the looks of the 3g TL when it was first introduced (I owned an '04 TL) and still do today, but every model needs updating. There will always be current owners who think their model is better than the new one. When the '08 M was introduced last year with a few tweaks the '06-'07 M owners said Infiniti had "ruined it" and "dumbed down the styling". Now those same owners are searching dealerships to try to replace the front/rear ends on their cars with the newer ones. This will just take time.

Unfortunately, the buying public really does want something distinctive, whether it is considered good design or not.

Razzi

first of all to the original query as to why we hate this car. it's bland, it's boring. we're enthusiasts that want something else, something that stands out, that's why we mod, cause we love the hobby and we love the attention.

this car takes away all that, it's a fat ass old man's car that you cant do squat with, it sits there and be ugly. is it gonna sell? hell yes it's gonna sell, it's a frickin honda that will go for 500000 miles before you need an oil change, it'll tell you if there's a tornado in oklahoma. it'll probably ride over railroad tracks better than an Abrams tank.

it's big, it's fat, it exudes a sense of "i got money in da bank" the dads love that. it carries 5 passengers and a booty to make beyonce jealous. it's not TERRIBLE, it's a bit ugly and kinda bland. but for 90% of car buyers functionality, quality and value comes first. that's what car makers aim for. the other 10%, well, that's why we have the aftermarket.

so is it a good car? yeah, so is the 2002-2006 camry, but it's just boring as hell

cbusAcuracls

I love Acura ..but IMO this "plenum grille" is the wrong design and is ugly. I am def. jumping ship...Given when Acura fires their current designers in the future I might come back as long as they make quality products. Some will justify the grille all day and night. The fact is 50%, 60%, 70%..etc don't like it and thats our god given right and your is to love it. So all you go out and spend 40K on a car you think looks good. The rest of us will glance at you on the road and laugh because it will look like your driving a cow pusher down the road and life will go on. PERIOD.

cyborgen

Lexus styling better ?

For the same amount of money. I'd go for this instead.

cyborgen

The 2009 IS350 is even better

carlos9827

iTrader: (2)

Any major changes for the 09 IS350?

Stash

Yes..they shoot the car from the passenger side, in motion, with the camera slightly tilted.

RSA_Secure

If you can put up with the numb steering wheel and minuscule rear passenger room

schristo

Didn't hesitate buying an 08 TL-S last month after looking at the '09. Did 3 drunk college kids design that exterior the weekend before it was due?

static808

The Lexus IS350 is a very bland looking car and doesn't compete with the TL. It competes with the Honda Fit.

IS 350: Legroom, Rear (in) 30.6
Fit: Legroom (in, rear) 34.5

I'd by a loaded Honda Fit over a Lexus IS350 and take the $20K left over and....buy another Honda Fit.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Gentlemen, let's try and stay on topic w/ this thread. Thanks.

shooter

When the change is too drastic/radical, it's bound to rough some feather ...

I don't like the trunk of the new TL, but I'm willing to give it sometime to sink in as I didn't like the 3G shape when it first came out compare to my old 2G more aerodynamic bodylines ... my two cents ...

sufall96

1. Acura is not truly in the luxury car market. If anything its the "near luxury," but no where near Lexus, MB, BMW.



My wife and I own a Lexus RX330 besides my 04 TL and I don't see how Acura is not a luxury brand. Please fill me in. I would take a TL over a C Class MB anyday unless it's an AMG. Now if you mean Acura does not have a car to compete with the S Class, CLS, SL, CL, then say that but neither does BMW match car for car with MB. Don't knock the whole brand. We have experienced multiple dealerships from both brands (Acura and Lexus) in Dallas, Houston, Baton Rouge, and New Orleans. Some were better than others on both sides. Once again please fill me in.

Peters

I tend to agree that Acura is not necessarily viewed as a luxury car. From my experience it is definitely the least expensive of the Lexus, Infiniti family, although price alone shouldn't disqualify it. From a performance perspective I feel its a reasonably powerful, good value for money front-driver for people in snowy climates and that has been its appeal. From a road feel perspective it's okay, with light steering, and as expected understeer and torque steer, and a fair amount of body roll. From an interior point of view its pretty good, but things like the roof liner falling down, my navi module needing to be replaced, the tires constantly wearing out have me feeling it's a good made in America sedan, but that's about it. It is no where close to my 3 series BMW in terms of driving feel, road handling and overall quality.

So a luxury car? Depends how you look at. In this day and age, most cars so well appointed its the feel and look of the car that distiguishes it. I don't think people would think of Acura as a luxury car. A good value for money car? For sure.

Type34

Since its inception into the US market with the original Legend and Integra, the Acura brand has represented clean aesthetics (ext & int), rock-solid reliability, and luxury value. Along with these attributes came high resale value.

Acura has now established "technology" as a brand value as well - we've all seen the ADVANCE commercials...I have marketing experience and think Acura should have stayed the course with evolutionary (trusted) design and expanded on its technological prowess.

I think why Acura fans and the media alike are gasping at the new TL (and especially) RL designs is that the front grilles are not evolutionary to the Acura design scheme. Their implementation is a calculated move that many did not feel need to be made.

A more successful "beak" is on the 09 TSX: the grille does not protrude onto the hood of the vehicle as in the TL and RL. I made a quick mockup of what the "beak" on the TL would look like with out the hood protrusion (much eaiser to swallow):



The grille of a vehicle sets the tone for the entire aesthetic of the exterior (hence M-B and BMWs recognizable grilles). Acura established the horizontal chrome/brushed bar with the bold Acura symbol and has done very well with it. Try something different? Okay. But the hood-protruding "beak" seems to have gone too far for many.

007Acura

I totaly agree

it sure will create a lot of turning heads and double takes on the road

BEAR-AvHistory

Good words.

carlos9827

iTrader: (2)

If this is what the grille looked like I would deifnately consider buying one.

mickey3c

I do have to say this. I have owned an early 2g and 3G model and felt that if I buy acura again, I will wait at least a year before I buy anothe model year from them. I believe many other people will have a wait and see attitude about this and not have to run out and buy the latest piece of iron right away.

That said along with money being tight, I do not believe the 4G to outsell the 3 even with the SH AWD and 3.7 engine. Well, at least not right away. And if we see 4.00+ a gallon for gas we shall see a trend towards more economical cars.

The other fact is transmissions... Hell even the mazda 6 offers a 6 speed automatic.

I think you will see some people at the high end buying but the lower end 34K model you might see sit in the show rooms for a while like the redesigned RL a few years ago. I remember being able to pick those up for a song.

Legend2TL

I agree for the most part. Having driven and looked at in detail the vehicles from Lexus, BMW, and MB at the Lexus and MB events Acura is a luxury brand in the small to mid line (TL, MB C-class, BMW 3-series | RL, MB E-class, BMW 5 series | MDX, MB ML, BMW X5). But not having a flag-ship car like a LS460, 7 series or S-class does deter many people from catogizing Acura as a luxury brand. In the classes they compete in they and Infiniti (which has come a long way) hold their own fairly well against the likes of MB, BMW, and Lexus.

The auto press have also praised Acura, the 2G MDX beat out all others in it's comparison from the likes of MB, BMW, Lexus and the RL placed second to the Infiniti M in the other comparison tests. So in many ways they are competing very well against the competition in sales and reviews.

BallsOfSteel

A butt ugly grill will start to grow on people ???? I can see if that grill was the only grill in the world. Sure. But when there are alot better grill's out there. Please !!!! That's just like saying that to a new employee in the office. She looks ugly now, but maybe her ugly face and body may grow on me and I will start to like her. Get real. That grill is nasty like Bettle Juice's face. But wait, maybe his face will start looking better if I start seeing it more often.