creamofthe_crop

Ever since Honda came to America they have been successful. Acura has now become a powerhouse in the luxury car market (more cars sold than Lexus and Infiniti). And correct me if im wrong, but nobody liked the 3G style TL at first either. Also the new TSX recieved hatred. The problem in both cases?? No one saw them on the road. Pictures are worth a thousand words, but seeing is believing. The 4G TL will be the best thus far, possibly car of the year, and once again, Honda/Acura have hit another homerun. Mark my words, half of you guys will trade in your 3G TL for a 4G, but all will have to admit how beautiful it is.

Colin

Indeed, maybe we need an Official "I prefer my crow with a demi glace sauce" Thread

SilverJ

I was skeptical about the 3g tl...but the more I saw of it, the more I loved it.
The more I see of the 4g the more I hate it...and by the way the New TSX in pictures looks HAWT. The TL ? Hideous, bloated POS.
I never underestimate the ignorance of the general public...(bush IS president after all) so if the car sells well I wont be surprised but I think many of the people on this board who dont like the exterior design (about 8 out of every 10) will not grow to like it...just my opinion. If I never saw or owned a 3G tl I may be more interested in it...but to me its just a major step down.

TL1999

i will go buy a GS before I spend $$ to buy 4G TL...

Peters

A quote from about.com:cars...2004 TL

From the very first, Acura TLs have been terrific – comfortable, pretty good mpg, quick enough and dead reliable. It’s just that they were so, well… dowdy. The 2004 TL fixes that. It still has all the good things (well, most anyway) but now they’re packaged with Italian-like flare. This one is flat gorgeous from every angle. But it’s not perfect: I don’t like the passenger seats and I think the engine’s too powerful for a family-type front-drive sedan. MSRP: $32,650; Warranty: 4yrs/50,000mi.

From Automobile - on the 2004 TL:

Just look at it. This is an Acura with style. A great-looking, beveled front fascia has a wide, powerful stance. The gutter at the beltline of this tough, extruded shape recalls the blade of a hunting knife. And, as you'd expect from Acura, the engineers also played an important role here, adding an assortment of pieces beneath the floorpan that trim the drag coefficient to 0.29.

I disagree with you on the reception of the 3G TL. It was a consensus winner in the looks department. For sure its about personal preference, but don't get your shorts in a knot. There are far too many people who just plain don't like the look of this new TL. So be it. Maybe we'll get used to it...maybe not.

Here's what cars.com said about the new 2009 TL and sums it up well.

Looks

Before I get into how remarkable a car the new TL is, there's just no escaping its looks. The phrase "love or hate" is used a lot in today's automotive world because executives believe a car needs to stand out in a crowd to attract buyers. Even if 70 percent of people hate the look, designers would rather draw the eyes of that other 30 percent. The new TL will certainly draw stares. On my test drive through Connecticut, before the TL was revealed to the public, other drivers definitely stared my way. Sure, some of them seemed to know they were getting a sneak peek, but I think most were gawking at the car's pronounced beak.

The Acura "shield" grille is well-integrated, and the thin headlights resemble both the previous-generation TL and the rest of the redesigned Acura lineup. Along the side is a strange "snarling" bulge above the front fender. It isn't repeated over the rear fender, making the front stand out even more. I call this the "Elvis Lip Curl," and it's even more pronounced on models with dark exterior colors.

When you go around to the back, things really get interesting. The rear bumper and trunklid jut outward as you move from the side of the car to the middle. Yes, it's pointing backward. Most back ends try to be flat across, not convex. It's a strange look that reminds me of a spaceship from "Buck Rogers," not a modern luxury sedan. Still, I always wanted to fly Buck Rogers' spaceship.

Stash

It isn't receiving negative press.....just hate from the internuts. I see the new TL as a natural progression from the 3G TL. The only question I have is will the back deck lid hold water if parked outside.

JAB00

I compare the new TL to the current 5 series or 5 series BMW. It's a design that's fraught with controversy. These models have harsh lines than can be looked as ruggedly handsome or hideous. I initially hated those two BMW models but I now like them.

KeithL

I'll disagree, the 3G TL is waht got my juices going and made me dump my Infiniti for a TL. I loved the 3G the first time I saw it. Alsoways liked the 2G as well. Most of my car nut friends loved or very much liked the 3G. They same crowd is scratching their heads on the 4G. The truth is the general public will likely not be as picky, they will buy the name brand first to some degress if they moderatly like the car.

Peters

Bingo. You've captured it. Most people, and automotive journalists praised the 3G TL when it was introduced not only for its looks but advancements. Our own poll in this forum indicates over 1/2 don't like the 4G. Defenders can say all they want and - let's face it - taste is personal, but over 1/2 of us don't like the look of it so far. What might save it, is if its driving characteristics are outstanding. We'll see.

Flavour

consider yourself corrected.

the 3g looked amazing the first time i saw it, and i didn't even get one until 08, the feeling lasted that long. i can guarantee you the feeling i have of the 4g will also last that long, just that the feeling is the complete opposite.

flydog

First. You should check your facts before posting. Lexus sold almost twice as many cars as Acura in 2007. 329,000 v. 180,000

Second. Acura is not a "powerhouse" in the luxury market by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd best Japanese brand.

Third. No one rated the 3G TL one of the 10 ugliest cars ever made as is the case with the 4G TL and I dont recall anyone ever complaining about the 3G design. The backlash against the 4G has been both extensive and universal. Even the more generous magazine reviews use language like "if you can get past the exterior . . . "

The car is just plain butt ugly. If you like then buy it. Don't come down here with made-up facts to try to substantiate your love for what everyone else things is a hideous beast.

Costco

Exactly my thoughts. I loved the 3G when I first saw it, and the TSX I didn't like it much at first, but within a month it grew on me so much, I can easily see it being a beautiful car, given a different grill. The TL however, I've been seeing spy photos for months now, and it only looks worse as time goes by.

As nice as it may be, it isn't the ONLY car in its class. I don't care how much it grows on anyone, it is the least attractive-looking car exterior wise in its class, you can't deny that. And another thing is for sure..... a different grill, like the 3G's grill, for instance, would be a huge improvement.



Someone mentioned the press not saying negative things about it. Actually, if you visit autoblog and other car blog sites, the comments are pretty much in line with those on AZ. 1 in 5 people like it, the rest hate it.

ed99

I fell in love with the 3rd Gen TL the very first time I layed my eyes on it. And I knew I had to get that car and I did. But the 4th gen isn't doing it for me.

Colin

What happens if this sells at the same rate or better? Does this bring into question the value of such sites' opinions ? (in the big picture)

BraveDemon

1. Acura is not truly in the luxury car market. If anything its the "near luxury," but no where near Lexus, MB, BMW.

2. I'm not sure of numbers, but I'm almost certain that the 3g was not as hated as the 4g. If anything, people were shocked at the deviation from the 2g style to the 3g style. There's less of a deviation from the 3g to the 4g; meaning there's a resemblance between the two, but IMO the 4g has been made to look larger and uglier.

3. For a price point at nearly $40k out the door, do you think styling should really have to grow on you? I'm sorry, but if I'm going to spend my hard earned money on a $40k car, I'd buy a car that immediately appeals to me. At the price point the new TL is occupying, there are other cars that are far better looking.

4. Nearly $40k for FWD "sports sedan?" You kidding me? Maybe its just me, but I believe "sports sedans" should be RWD.

The 4g TL is not the ugliest car - there are far uglier cars (think American cars) but its gotten bigger, uglier and older. Yes older, meaning I have a hard time imagining myself (a 26 year old) driving one. And it shows; clearly the price point, styling and size is geared more towards an older audience.

Between the 4g TL or the IS350, I'd take the IS350 in a heartbeat.

Colin

I'm pretty sure that by the time you get to $40K you'll be in an AWD car. The TL is supposed to start around 34K for FWD, same range as G3.

CL6

Lexus outsells Acura.

omd316

Some of the crowd whom purchase these vehicles hardly understand the difference of RWD , FWD or AWD honestly , most are into the brand name . I think the real question is will the badge of Acura lure enough buyers to what is a moderately designed 4g TL .

carlos9827

iTrader: (2)

I will be with the half that DOES NOT trade in their 3G for the 4G TL. As someone else said, I would buy an M35 or GS over the 4G TL. I also loved the 3G since the SECOND I first saw one. I still remember that day......

Hugh9269

The reason I bought a G3 TL over a Infiniti G35 was the looks. I never made it back to the Infiniti dealership, dropped off my RSX Type S and moved on. I still think the 3G looks fresh today, I think Automobile magazine mentioned that last year in a comparo.

Acura's new 4G TL is already a dividing design, not a good start...

blakura

Is there any way possible to contact the decision makers or boardmembers at Acura? I have to know why they did this to our car. I'm serious, I mean do they even care what we think about the direction the company is moving in and the look of the cars? I think the features are awesome for the most part, but I can't ride around in an ugly car. Even people who dislike Acura (BMW/Lexus fans) are asking why? I have had a total of 6 Honda/Acura cars since 1996, but I'm seriously considering jumping ship, but I will wait until I see the car in person.

static808

BMW Fans made the same noise when the 5 series came out. I owned a Z3 at the time and was on their boards. BMW fans were swearing off the brand. How could they destroy the 5 series and the Z3 with a weird looking Z4? How dare they. Who can I call in Munich. What's the CEO's email address? All that stuff. Their redesigned cars sell very well and now we all like them right? Well except for the Z4.

Acura wanted to distinguish itself on the road. Next time on the road, count how many cars have a horizontal grille. Its probably 7 out of 10 cars. Acura needed to break from the pack. Mercedes is Mercedes, the orginial horizonal grille, BMW has the kidney grille, Audi has that big grille thing and now Acura with its grille. All the rest: Lexus, Infiniti, Hyundai, Kia, you name it...all look the same.

Acura's management rolled the dice and needed to be different if they wanted to be global. People will notice an Acura in Europe, Asia and the US. The 3G TL will look old on the road when the 4G TL's start cruising around. Heck, the old gen TSX looks small and very old compared to the 2009 TSX.

The MMC's will scale down the grille's and settle into a nicer more pleasing design. Its called progress.

And my 2 cents, it doesn't look that bad....

BraveDemon

I believe its 34k non navi. So even if you want a non type S 4g TL, you'd be look at 36.5k for a navi version. Add taxes and license fee and you're hitting $40k out the door.

The TL-S (Sh-awd version) will probably start at $38-$40k. Which means it'll break $40k out the door.

And its not so much the design that I myself am disappointed in; I (like many other car enthusiasts) are more or less frustrated with Acura's lack of direction. I believe someone posted that many people don't care for FWD or RWD; and the masses probably could care less. But car enthusiasts do care - and for $40k it'd be nice to get RWD standard. All other luxury companies build their cars around the car enthusiast (BMW/Lexus/MB) whereas Acura is still stuck in the "economy luxury" image.

Yes SH-AWD is a start, but I would've loved to see that in the TSX with a Turbo I4. Instead what did we get in the 09 TSX? Just an exterior and interior redesign. Where's the boost in HP? Where's the optional drive trains?

Acura may still be a great auto manufacturer, but its clear that they're not doing anything for the enthusiast.

Peters

Wrong. What you can't measure is lost sales from people who cannot get over their particular distaste for the way a car looks, like the BMWs Z cars for instance. Check out the new 2010 5 Series. A big, big difference from the outside - to improve the look of the car.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/s...ries-revealed/

maverickinvestor

Most people on this board do not hate Acura/Honda. I know I like their cars. Between my wife and I, we have had 4 Acuras (89 Integra, 90 Integra, 03 MDX, 08TLS)!

But I just do NOT like the look of the 4G's grill and rear. They are too exaggerated! Its profile and interior looks good to me though.

I too still remember when I first saw a 3G ad, it was love at first sight for me. But these 4g photos bought out the opposite reactions from me.

I went out and bought a 08TLS AFTER seeing the 4G's photos. I certainly will not be trading my 3G in for a 4G.

Acura has been accused of being too bland and conservative in the past for their styling so they have been trying to change that.

The 3G style, I believe, struck a great balance between being classical as well as innovative. It will age well.

As Emeril like to say, they tried to "take it up a notch" with the 4G. But I think they over did it!

Since when I first saw the 4G photos I hadn't bought my 08TLS, I don't think my dislike for the 4G's look is a case of sour grapes either.

However, the new dedicated Acura design studio in LA will get their act together eventually and Acura will have more consistency in their design.

Acura is NOT a powerhouse in the luxury segment of the car market.

Honda IS a powerhouse in the car industry. Its car fleet is the best in terms of fuel efficiency and pollution control. It IS making money even in this terrible car market. Unlike some of American brands, they will be around!

Colin

I know the estimated pricing for the car BUT the point is that you will be able to buy a TL for mid 30s. AWD TLs will be closer to 40. You did not say 'OTD' in your post, so I thought you were playing a 'little loose' with the facts and I didn't want to perpetuate a myth. The main point I was trying to make is that (not counting discounts at the end of the MY) MSRP for MSRP a current base TL and the projected cost for the new car are going to be roughly the same. An '09 TL tech and '08 TL Navi will probably be similarly priced, yet the '09 will get the drivetrain from the upmarket TL Type-S. This seems like more car for the same money to me.

A current TL-S MSRP is 39ish, already pushing 40K for a FWD car. There is going to be more overlap here because TL-S' have Navi, but I'll bet that a TL AWD will be under the MSRP of a current TL-S. Yes, you're giving up features but getting other 'enthusiast' features in exchange. Add in the Tech package and you finally bust 40K at MSRP. Of course, this is all a guess, but I'm generally a pretty good guesser....

Here I think you're mistaken. I see Acura focused like I've never seen them in the 13 years I've sold them. For the first time I see a long range goal (Tier 1) and a plan to get there. On the RWD part, I wrote a longish reply that detailed my thoughts on why we don't see one now, but might in the future. It is peppered with an understanding I've gained from talking to factory guys but mostly focuses on economics of scale. In the humblest way I can, let me quote myself:

carlos9827

iTrader: (2)

I am REALLY liking the new 5 series and its not even out yet, these are just spy pictures, I still don't like it as much as I liked my 3G TL when I first saw it, but this is just for those who say you can't judge a car by pictures unless you see it in person......um no.....you CAN judge it by a picture. My opinion of the 09TL is that its ugly as hell!

Stash

Wrong and Right. You cannot measure lost sales. However, Acura doesn't care about lost sales. They care about sales and a brand identity. Will they attract more buyers by designing a more aggressive car then they will lose by not playing to the "enthusiasts"? What percentage of Acura buyers are "enthusiasts"?

datnkay

i dunno it doesn't look so bad...the grill could be replaced...i felt the same way for the '09 TSX, but the more i saw it the more potential i saw in it...i like the new looks of the MDX, RDX, and TSX, but the RL hmmmm...still can't get use to it!!! i think the TL is gonna look a lot better in person...still can't wait until it's release to the public

creamofthe_crop

A quote from the October car and driver

"Lets's just get this out of the way. Yes, the beaky nose on the new Acura TL looks odd. Maybe it's just the shock of a new look.... We can however testify that it looks better in the flesh than in photographs, and that the rest of the TL's angular, mondern shape is assuredly handsome, especially in the pointed shape of the trunk."

So like I said before, no one here has seen the car in person, and until you do, don't make judgements. Honda/Acura are marketing genius's and will not mess up their bread and butter.

Costco

Yes, marketing geniuses indeed. In fact, they marketed the RL so well that its the best seller in its class and I can't watch a single show without seeing at least one RL commercial twice.

I sure hope Car and Driver is right.

The Chevrolet Cavalier when it was introduced, sold even better than the Chevrolet Vega.

No doubt it's a better car. Is it better looking, or even attractive, to begin with? My opinion.... its one of the ugliest cars I've set my eyes on, period. I had high hopes for the 4G, which explains the hate, and I think others feel the same way too.

Colin

Huh? Who cares about Chevys? My point was that many here claim that because the Internet has proclaimed "its one of the ugliest cars I've set my eyes on, period." that it is doomed to failure. I am saying that over the last 5 years, Acura has sold about 300,000 G3 TLs and how many of those owners are here? This site and sites like this are not the majority.

BraveDemon

I'm sorry, but I haven't been following the 4th gen TL much, but I thought ONLY THE TYPE-S was going to have SH-AWD? Or that I believe that's what I've been reading from the news on them.

And if a regular TL is offered with SH-AWD, it will probably MSRP for what the current TL-S MSRP's for. And I would hardly call SH-AWD an "enthusiast" feature; with all that weight the TL is carrying and not to mention the HP that is robbed through that SH-AWD drive train, it's not going to be very fast. I believe someone dynoed their 08 RL and although it's rated at 300hp from the factory, it was only putting down 190 to the wheels - thats the same as my 2nd Gen TL-S.

I don't know how to qoute that qoute you had, but IF Acura offered RWD vehicles, yes I believe they'd sell, even if the pricing was a little more expensive. I'd gladly buy a RWD TSX at an IS250 price range. (Currently the TSX is hitting pretty damn close to the IS250 price and its still FWD).

And its pretty obvious that Acura will have to offer RWD sooner or later - look at Hyundai. Yes, sure. Laugh now. Five years ago, no one would have imagined a RWD V8 from Hyundai. Now it's a reality. What kind of people are going to consider the RWD Genesis? Acura TL shoppers - those bargain shoppers looking for the best value. IMO, the Genesis has more going for it than the 4g TL currently.

Acura has made all these claims about being wanting to be like Maybach, or being a true Tier 1 automaker. Then step up to the plate.

1. 09 TSX - what incentive do previous TSX owners have to get the 09? Definitely no change in HP or drivetrain. Just a refreshed exterior and a neater interior design, but at a higher price.

2. 09 TL - I'm sorry, but like I've said its just plain ugly. For 40k, I should not have to "get used to" the looks of a car. Not to mention again, how I'd much rather get another car for that price.

3. 09 RL - Slight refresh, still underpowered, still expensive, still boring, still disappointing.

Acura is an entry level luxury car maker and thats it. As their prices continue to rise, they need to start offering more options to the consumer. Sure they're focused now - more focused than you've seen in the past 13 years right? But they should have been focused much longer ago. Lexus has already hit premuim automaker status and entered the game near the same time as Acura. Where has Acura been? Occupying that econo-luxury category.

creamofthe_crop

Here's what car and driver said
"As for the rest of the Acura playbook, the TL still boasts an impressive amount of equipment... and an industry firist doppler radar weather map feauture.... Material qualities are first-rate, and this car feels more upscale than the previous one... Driving the TL back-to-back with its predecessor makes it clear that major improvements have been made... the TL is the most focused and best executed car in Acura's line-up"

So its seems to me Acura is making its way into the pure luxury manufacter market with industry first quality. And like I have been saying, when you see the car in person, and drive the car, you will realize that Honda/Acura have hit another home-run

Colin

Obviously we don't agree, and I think we've been here before. I will only respond to correct factual errors and not try to respond to your opinions and feelings.

-There is no Type-S for 2009, only TL and TL SH-AWD.

-You need to go out and drive a SH equipped car. It is definitely an enthusiast feature.

-Bass MSRP for a TSX is 29,720, the IS base price is 32,850. IMO in this price range this is not that close. Comparably equipped, the IS 250 is 36,831. Now that's not even close.

-Tier 1 is a goal for the future, nobody can go back and change what should have been done. Complaining about it now won't change what happened 9or didn't happen) in the past.

Peters

I suppose your point is the whole point of this thread. Acura may not care about enthusiasts. But that is the danger that has plagued every car manufacturer since the start of the industry...when buyers lose the passion to say...."I just gotta have that." We'll see about the sales. Acura makes a good car. Acura is not a Mercedes or BMW...let's see how much it costs and what the real world driving experience is and then you'll be able to gauge the reaction of buyers. This is one of the most competitve industries in the world. We'll know soon enough. For me, I just can't get used to the look of the 4G. And the TL may be loaded with goodies, but the others won't be far behind, as illustrated below.

DivinDude

I have no intentions of driving it .. it has a cow-catcher on the front .. what an ugly unrefined piece of plastic which has been called out by most reviews that I've read. I personally do not care for the SH-AWD - those letters is just a fancy way of saying 'there's a lot of spinning stuff that really doesn't do much good for day-to-day driving' .. so the SH-AWD version is totally out for me (I didn't buy the 3G until the Type S came out since I tend to go upscale on any particular model) ... Also, Acura's sales and service are no where near that of Lexus .. totally different experience .. simply coming out with a cheap piece of plastic grille and raising prices doesn't make you a tier-1. If I'm laying out $40k for a car .. I'll drive right by that Acura dealer because they have nothing that I want (I've had 6 Acuras in the past 10.5 years) .. let's hope that they do a quick re-do to the front like they did with the last gen Accord's rear-end

Colin

People have short memories

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/new-looks-blah-blah-blah-537461/

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/exclusive-2004-tl-%2Aunmasked%2A-acura-tsx-com-536371/

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/things-i-hate-about-536424/

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/anti-2004-tl-536098/

Proving once again, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

mikiTL

What exactly constitutes a Luxury Car Automaker anyway? What gives Lexus this status and not Acura?

When the last RL came out, it was (and is) a far more beautiful car than the LS (of that time), which was nothing more than an oversized Avalon. Critics talked down the RL because the exterior seemed smaller compared to its rivals. In truth, it appears smaller because its corners are angled in. Roads in japan are narrower, have more esses, and are generally harder to negotiate than in Germany or the United States. The Legend was designed for an older, mature driver who wanted the perfect balance of handling and power while cruising the 'to-ge' (mountain roads). The size, plainly put, is perfect. It has SH-AWD, a technology that far surpasses any other AWD. Ofcourse, critics then have to point out that it is FF biased. Truth of the matter is, FF, for all intents and purposes, in all driving conditions, considering the wide range of driving personality types, is MUCH safer than FR.

Size and drivetrain aside, Acura has packaged it's cars with best-in-class navigation systems, the most beautifully designed ergonomic interiors (3gTL yay!), and was one of the first manufacturers with bluetooth connectivity.

Then there is racing heritage. Not many people here really know Honda's racing history, but any true racing enthusiast would know that Honda dominated Formula 1 for decades. Think Ayrton Senna, and before him, Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet. Honda had perfected the turbocharged engine and was unrivaled. They dominated so much that Formula 1 ended up going normally aspirated. Toyota's racing heritage pales in comparison. Well, they did have race trucks..

Truth is, Honda is very much a Luxury Car Automaker. They have made quality, luxurious cars for a while now. The numbnuts at Acura who are saying 'we are going to become a tier1 luxury automaker' really don't have any idea what Acura is, and put other manufacturers like BMW, MB, and Lexus on pedestals because they have been brainwashed by the propaganda of those manufacturers. The commercials speak for themselves. MB and Lexus commercials exude luxury in all its arrogance and pompousness with their chin up, nasal-cavity-and-throat-in-one narration voice.

Oh, one more thing. The thing Honda prides itself more than anything is their engine technology (everyone has copied VTEC, and now Honda has VTEC for the Exhaust, not just intake). I can only think of one other prominent automobile manufacturer that makes engines/turbines for jet planes. They are called Rolls Royce. I would say Honda is in good company.

To the OP: I agree with you completely. The 4GTL is going to be a huge hit. But not yet. When MMC comes around, you will see them everywhere. I didnt care for the 3G when it first came out, it never really grabbed my attention. Not until the 07 MMC, when the front bumper and mirrors changed. Just like how the 04-06TL is a bit dull compared to the 07/08 TL and Type-S, the first run of the 4GTL's will be embraced rather slowly. But sooner or later, people are going to want to stand out in a unique and exclusive vehicle, and that would be the 4GTL.

Costco

I mentioned those two because you said the 4G TL may sell better.... my analogy pretty much meant, so what? The Vega was a piece of shit and ugly, and so was the Cavalier, arguably with even worse looks. They both sold well, and the Cavalier was the successor to the Vega, and sold even better than the Vega did..... which is why I couldn't understand your reasoning

I see there are a lot of people are saying the car won't sell because its ugly as hell. I'll agree with them on its looks. Me, personally, I could care less about sales numbers, but as of now I'm unsure how it'll do, which is why I don't note my forecast for the TL's sales. Maybe the ordinary buyer, the basic bread-and-butter sedan owner, who gets an Accord or a Camry every few years and judges their decision on tangible things like price, etc, who has no idea what FWD means or stands for, may like it. So the reception by the general public may be good, perhaps, but personally I still think it looks terrible.... doesn't matter how much it grows on me in person, it's by far the worst looking car in the $30,000-$50,000 sedan segment.

I didn't have to see the Pontiac Aztek in person to know it was an atrocious monstrosity on 4 wheels.... and I think the same goes for the TL. And for what its worth, I loved the looks of the 3G TL, even in concept form. The Advanced sedan concept, sadly, was a sign of things to come. Not even a mother could love that face