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I have NEVER changed a timing belt, even at 300K. How about you?
Basically, I'm curious to know what other peoples disciplines are regarding the changing of their timing belt and water pump. Before subjecting myself to an onslaught of bashing and criticism, I'd like to explain a little about myself and how I have gotten to this point of never changing either after nearly 30 years of driving more than a dozen vehicles well beyond 100K.
I am a 45 year old Male, well educated, pretty sensible, down to earth and not much of a risk taker generally speaking. My first few cars as a kid were budget beaters so I never put a dime into them unless I had to and drove them as far as they would go. The older I got, the newer/nicer my cars were but still all used, value vehicles that I pushed to the limit with the reasoning of 'why spend nearly $1,000 on a vehicle that is only worth 2-3K. The trend continued right up to the point where I was making more money than I had ever imagined. At that point, I bought several very expensive cars and had money to burn and no time to spare so I really did not care about unsexy things like seemingly unnecessary maintenance. Then came a family. I began mostly buying sensible Honda/Acura vehicles that I basically drove into the ground with only the basic maintenance.
Here is a list of the vehicles with approx. mileage I've taken them to without changing the timing belt or water pump.
Now, I am retired early due to injury and just recently bought an '09 TL tech with 100K. Not exactly a budget vehicle or one I intend to run into the ground. Also, I don't have the unlimited cash flow I once had and have all the time in the world. Can you see where this is headed? I know I may just be very lucky and that I'd be risking a 3-4K engine replacement but be paying almost 1K to mitigate the risk that I have a lifetime of luck with. Continue rolling the dice as I've done so well, or, am I pushing my luck too far and BOUND for disappointment.
I'm not familiar with the engines of each of the models you've listed, but how many of these are timing chains as opposed to belts? Timing chains have greater longevity in terms of use as they're not susceptible to the breakdown with age or temperature change that a rubber or a rubber hybrid belt would be. I suspect everything '99 or later Honda / Acura has had a belt. Good track record nonetheless.
I'm not familiar with the engines of each of the models you've listed, but how many of these are timing chains as opposed to belts? Timing chains have greater longevity in terms of use as they're not susceptible to the breakdown with age or temperature change that a rubber or a rubber hybrid belt would be. I suspect everything '99 or later Honda / Acura has had a belt. Good track record nonetheless.
All Honda V6 engines use belts and all 4 cylinder engines use chains.
Can you afford a replacement engine + labor for installation in the event the timing belt snaps?
If the answer is no then you should be doing the preventative maintenance. Which is what the timing belt service is.
Why bother doing oil changes, spark plugs, brakes, or tires? Just drive on the brakes til they grind into the rotors! Just drive the tires til they explode.
You can do a timing belt, water pump, and seals for ~$500 with OEM parts and a third party (not Honda/Acura dealership) mechanic. Why wouldn't you do it?
Thanks for an interesting post. You will get some thoughtful responses and you will get some that are just reflex reactions based on personal bias rather than facts.
The post above from RDX10 is incorrect. Many 4 cyl engines have timing belts including Honda and Mazda engines. But the point about some of your vehicles having had chains is correct.
Although it is true that chains don't need changing as belts do, they can stretch and slip on their sprockets. Not sure how common that is, but it does happen.
I think it's pretty obvious that a part like a timing belt will have a lifetime that is unpredictable. For one thing, there will be a natural variation in the belts themselves. They are not all exactly the same. There is always variation in any set of manufactured parts. And then obviously the torture that the belt endures will vary considerably due to the type of driving the car experiences, the weather it is subjected to, etc.
I'm sure the manufacturer makes his best guess based on test data and actual experience and sets a replacement suggestion that is a compromise.
To get back to your question, my opinion is that you are taking a gamble by trying to extend the use of a belt past the suggested replacement timing. It would only be possible to understand your odds if you had reliable data from similar vehicles, and even then you would not be able to predict with any certainty. But it's a fact that belts do fail. Serpentine belts fail often and they are not that different than timing belts. Your chances of a belt failure go up pretty significantly after 160,000 km or 100,000 mi. Your chances of engine damage from a broken timing belt are much much greater with an interference engine where the valves can hit the pistons when the belt breaks. Not all engines are this type though.
I did a similar "test" when I had my beloved '99 Integra. It was a fabulous car that I sold in perfect condition after 225,000 km.
I did not change the timing belt soon enough and it broke at 200,000 km. Luckily for me I was sitting at a red light idling in neutral and the car simply stalled and did no damage to the engine. A new belt was all it needed. With your TL I would recommend you do the service shortly after 100,000 mi.
The reason people change the water pump at the same time as the timing belt is simply that water pump seals are prone to leaking eventually, so replacing the pump simply avoids the probable cost of doing the exact same job over again. The water pump does not necessarily have to be changed if it is not leaking, it is again a case of avoiding a possible more costly repair.
Some service departments also like to get you to change plugs, coolant and hoses when doing a timing belt. This is not really necessary unless it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy.
And for a final word, don't believe everything you read on the internet!!
Thanks for an interesting post. You will get some thoughtful responses and you will get some that are just reflex reactions based on personal bias rather than facts.
The post above from RDX10 is incorrect. Many 4 cyl engines have timing belts including Honda and Mazda engines. But the point about some of your vehicles having had chains is correct.
Although it is true that chains don't need changing as belts do, they can stretch and slip on their sprockets. Not sure how common that is, but it does happen.
I think it's pretty obvious that a part like a timing belt will have a lifetime that is unpredictable. For one thing, there will be a natural variation in the belts themselves. They are not all exactly the same. There is always variation in any set of manufactured parts. And then obviously the torture that the belt endures will vary considerably due to the type of driving the car experiences, the weather it is subjected to, etc.
I'm sure the manufacturer makes his best guess based on test data and actual experience and sets a replacement suggestion that is a compromise.
To get back to your question, my opinion is that you are taking a gamble by trying to extend the use of a belt past the suggested replacement timing. It would only be possible to understand your odds if you had reliable data from similar vehicles, and even then you would not be able to predict with any certainty. But it's a fact that belts do fail. Serpentine belts fail often and they are not that different than timing belts. Your chances of a belt failure go up pretty significantly after 160,000 km or 100,000 mi. Your chances of engine damage from a broken timing belt are much much greater with an interference engine where the valves can hit the pistons when the belt breaks. Not all engines are this type though.
I did a similar "test" when I had my beloved '99 Integra. It was a fabulous car that I sold in perfect condition after 225,000 km.
I did not change the timing belt soon enough and it broke at 200,000 km. Luckily for me I was sitting at a red light idling in neutral and the car simply stalled and did no damage to the engine. A new belt was all it needed. With your TL I would recommend you do the service shortly after 100,000 mi.
The reason people change the water pump at the same time as the timing belt is simply that water pump seals are prone to leaking eventually, so replacing the pump simply avoids the probable cost of doing the exact same job over again. The water pump does not necessarily have to be changed if it is not leaking, it is again a case of avoiding a possible more costly repair.
Some service departments also like to get you to change plugs, coolant and hoses when doing a timing belt. This is not really necessary unless it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy.
And for a final word, don't believe everything you read on the internet!!
I was only talking about current Honda engines. Nothing to do with mazda.
I was only talking about current Honda engines. Nothing to do with mazda.
To correct your post, all new Honda 4cyl engines use a chain while the V6 engines use a belt.
The F series (F22B1/B2, F23) as well as the H series (H22A, H23, etc) were timing belt. The F23 was in use up until 2002 in the Accord. After that they switched to the K24 which is a chain.
So the OP's '99 Odyssey (F23 engine) had a timing belt and his newer '08 Odyssey (J-series V6) also had a belt.
Thanks given jim_c for a very unbiased, neutral, yet helpful response full of accurate information. Just what I was looking for. Not judgement or criticism, just your opinions and experiences delivered in a peaceful way to help others such as me develop their own opinions based on intellect rather than emotions. Cheers!
Thanks given TheMuffinMan for the helpful suggestions and information. Especially regarding which vehicles had belts and chains. I am aware of the 'gamble' so to speak. As I am retired, I do have some money set aside but a limited income. So, can I afford to deal with an engine replacement? Yes, if I have too. Would I rather save the $$ if I knew I would continue to have the luck I've always had? Yes. Do I know what is going to happen in the future? No. I guess I was just trying to sample the crown in how they feel about their TL, what the TL's track record is etc. before making my decision. As my '09 TL is my favorite car ever, and, I am on a limited income, $1,000 is still painful but if I can get it done for $500 as you say, I think I would certainly do that. Perhaps I was assuming it was too much and need to get a quote. Maybe my next post will be titles 'How much to change your timing belt?'
Thanks given TheMuffinMan for the helpful suggestions and information. Especially regarding which vehicles had belts and chains. I am aware of the 'gamble' so to speak. As I am retired, I do have some money set aside but a limited income. So, can I afford to deal with an engine replacement? Yes, if I have too. Would I rather save the $$ if I knew I would continue to have the luck I've always had? Yes. Do I know what is going to happen in the future? No. I guess I was just trying to sample the crown in how they feel about their TL, what the TL's track record is etc. before making my decision. As my '09 TL is my favorite car ever, and, I am on a limited income, $1,000 is still painful but if I can get it done for $500 as you say, I think I would certainly do that. Perhaps I was assuming it was too much and need to get a quote. Maybe my next post will be titles 'How much to change your timing belt?'
You can purchase kits on eBay that have OEM and/or OE parts for ~$200 to service the timing belt, water pump, tensioner, and seals.
That leaves you $300 for labor, most shops are ~$95-100/hr and I've seen most timing belts estimates around 4 hours range. I've got a local shop that did my '03 Pilot for the ~$300 when I provided the parts (purchased from eBay link linked above)
To correct your post, all new Honda 4cyl engines use a chain while the V6 engines use a belt.
The F series (F22B1/B2, F23) as well as the H series (H22A, H23, etc) were timing belt. The F23 was in use up until 2002 in the Accord. After that they switched to the K24 which is a chain.
So the OP's '99 Odyssey (F23 engine) had a timing belt and his newer '08 Odyssey (J-series V6) also had a belt.
oh my god triple face palm, I went back to see what I posted and holy hell I feel like an idiot right now. Yes you are 100% correct. V6's with belts and 4 cylinders with chains. I shall now go relegate myself to the corner.
oh my god triple face palm, I went back to see what I posted and holy hell I feel like an idiot right now. Yes you are 100% correct. V6's with belts and 4 cylinders with chains. I shall now go relegate myself to the corner.
Lol, all good. I knew what you meant (current gen Honda's) but that's why someone corrected you in the first place. :beer:
Though I would change the belt at 105k, apparently the belts in our cars still look pretty new when replaced, according to many posts I've read here. I can see that for you, having saved a pile of cash not doing the belts or chains on all those cars, you could say you are so far ahead in cash saved that if this one breaks you'll still be way ahead overall. However, it's not like you put all that cash you didn't spend on maintenance into an account that you could now pay for a replacement engine out of it. Since you say you're now on a limited income, I'd advise doing what others suggested - buy the parts and find a place that will just charge the labor. Peace of mind is worth something too.
Though I would change the belt at 105k, apparently the belts in our cars still look pretty new when replaced, according to many posts I've read here. I can see that for you, having saved a pile of cash not doing the belts or chains on all those cars, you could say you are so far ahead in cash saved that if this one breaks you'll still be way ahead overall. However, it's not like you put all that cash you didn't spend on maintenance into an account that you could now pay for a replacement engine out of it. Since you say you're now on a limited income, I'd advise doing what others suggested - buy the parts and find a place that will just charge the labor. Peace of mind is worth something too.
One of the truest and most accurate statements I have ever read. Also exactly why I don't touch German cars anymore.
Given all the $$ that the OP has saved over the years in NOT replacing belts and the fact that he loves his current TL, I'd vote for replacing the belt at 105K, especially given the relatively low cost versus the cost of a new top end if the belt breaks.
I looked at this thread initially thinking someone was in my situation -- a low mileage car that has hit or will hit the time limit suggested but is well under the mileage recommendation for timing belt replacement. When this happened on my Legend, I waited a bit, but ultimately replaced it (when the car was over 10 years old) because 1) I was afraid of thrashing the top end; and 2) I knew that when I sold the car, a prospective buyer would like the fact the belt/water pump had been replaced.
...............someone was in my situation -- a low mileage car that has hit or will hit the time limit suggested but is well under the mileage recommendation for timing belt replacement. When this happened on my Legend, I waited a bit, but ultimately replaced it (when the car was over 10 years old) because 1) I was afraid of thrashing the top end; and 2) I knew that when I sold the car, a prospective buyer would like the fact the belt/water pump had been replaced.
So, yes, peace of mind is worth something.
I am in that position. In service date of 08 TL-S is 01/2008 and have just recently rolled 76K on my odometer. Will likely get my TB, water pump and tensioner, etc done in the next 6 months or so.
I am in that position. In service date of 08 TL-S is 01/2008 and have just recently rolled 76K on my odometer. Will likely get my TB, water pump and tensioner, etc done in the next 6 months or so.
Same engine in my 07 RL. At 75k I decided to do the timing belt maintenance just the other day. I asked for my old timing belt back just so I can check out the condition and it looks flawless to me.
This is interesting and good data.
Assuming you didn't put all those miles on these cars (approx. 110,000 miles per year for 1 driver over 30 years) ... how sure are you that the ones with timing belts weren't changed before you got them?
Hi Reorge, I actually left a few off of the list as I either was uncertain about the previous owners care, or, I had them for such a short time. All of the vehicles listed were either from friends, family, new, or low enough mileage that no one would ever have changed the timing belt unless there was a fluke occurrence. Some were purchased right at about 100K (like with my new to me '09 TL where I know it has not been changed.) The list included my girlfriends vehicles form when I met her at 19 as well as her vehicles as my wife. Very good points though. Cheers!
I didn't know that Honda had changed to using timing chains on the 4 cyl engines. So thanks for the info. Unfortunately they have gone so wacky with their styling cues that I will probably never buy another Honda. The new Civic is very popular, but I hate it. And the Accord was obviously designed by a committee.
And I am a multiple Honda/Acura owner! I certainly don't want a car with a CVT. I really like our 2010 TL but ironically it will need a timing belt and all new tires soon. Currently has 120,000 km (75,000 mi.)
My current thinking is to keep it another year and then trade it with its original timing belt still in it.
I knew when I bought the TL that it had a TB. If you figure in the cost of a TB every 105K miles, and the generally bulletproof nature of these cars, the cost of maintainace is still pretty low. I also don't get buying a relatively expensive car, maintaining it with regular oil/fluids changes for 105K miles, and then knowingly risking the engine ($4,000 to replace) by not performing a known maintainance item. OTOH, there are lots of stories like yours, with people going long past the recommended TB interval without any problems at all. Either way, enjoy the TL!!!
^ I agree with your comments. My car (2010 TL fwd 3.5L) has only ever had one repair and it is now 7 years old. The repair under warranty was for a front speaker, pretty small potatoes.
Of course this does not include regular maintenance but I do most of that myself . I've done a timing belt before buy I'm not up for that job anymore.
So I agree that overall cost of ownership, especially if you get a good deal on a low mileage used vehicle is very reasonable.
My concern is simply that I am regularly a thousand miles or more away from home and I really don't want to need a tow in a locale far from home.
Life is not black and white eh? It's kinda grey!
Lots of good info here thanks everyone. I bought a 2012 TL SH-AWD about 4 months ago and have been looking into this. It has 106,500 kilometers on it. Wondering if I should do it soon or wait until the 110,000-115,000 range to do it. It had 105,000 when I bought it had I don't drive far, mainly city driving. Does it matter much if I wait?
My 09 TL SHAWD has a nice sticker on the engine cover saying it was done at 94000KM in 2012. Make sure wherever you get it done puts a sticker on the engine somewhere obvious that indicates when and at what mileage it was done. Anyways I got it at 184KM, and now its at 194KM. From my research and experience I'm going to invest in a new belt in another 50,000KM. My old 99 accord with the first J series V6 (J30A1) I got it at 250,000KM, and sold it at 384,000KM, no timing belt replaced during my use. And I drove that thing very hard to say the least. So I would say these things are built very well.
I do recall taking my old Honda to a mechanic and there is an inspection port they can check to see the condition of it. He said it was fine no cracks or anything. (I was mainly worried about age, was probably 10+ year old belt in the car)
The fact that they say you should change it every 100,000 miles (160,000KM) should tell you this item is incredibly robust. But change it at some point in the far future.
I know this is 4th gen section for the TL, but there are several mentions of getting the TB replaced at 100K or 105K. So my question is this - Is the 100K or 105K documented as a maintenance interval in the the 4th gen owner's manual? The reason for the question is there is no such documentation for the 3rd gen TL. The guidance is to replace when "4" shows up on the maintenance minder regardless of time or mileage. Some 3G owners have said dealers have quoted the 7 yr / 105K mileage, but when pressed for documentation, they back off. I'm just curious what the 4th gen manual says or if it is formally documented anywhere??
Isn't our cars drive by wire (Electronic)?!
I hope we don't have to change that thing out, looks super expensive. From a quick search this isn't a maintenance schedule item anywhere for our newer cars.
Just re-read what you posted disregard my last post haha
The Maintenance Minder does the calculation, there is no "specific" time. But it will come on around that time depending on how the car was driven over time. When you get the alert on your dash with the code prepare to go to your bank account and change the timing belt. Or if you changed it early make delete the code and be sure to have a sticker on your engine when it was actually done to keep track.
To correct your post, all new Honda 4cyl engines use a chain while the V6 engines use a belt.
The F series (F22B1/B2, F23) as well as the H series (H22A, H23, etc) were timing belt. The F23 was in use up until 2002 in the Accord. After that they switched to the K24 which is a chain.
So the OP's '99 Odyssey (F23 engine) had a timing belt and his newer '08 Odyssey (J-series V6) also had a belt.
As noted there are few listed that have timing chain((s). For the most part, doing the timing belt is part of ' I dont want to pay for 10x the repair' and/or be in the middle of nowhere if it goes.
There is always 'I have a shit load of money and dont care'...or 'I have a shit load of money and I care however I dont want to spend the extra money, hence how I became rich.' (being a frugal with one's money)
No I did not check which were non-interference engines.
Silly to skip the service, my timing belt tensioner was leaking fluid at 100k, and many others have reported pulley bearings on their way out. Penny wise pound foolish..
As I think I already posted, Acura Canada has published a formal document with the maintenance schedule itemized, including the timing belt recommendation.
I was given a hardcopy by my dealer.
It's of some interest and folks should be aware of the fact that service departments (dealers) often push maintenance shedules that are much more detailed and costly than what the manufacturers propose.
For example, they are always pushing fuel injector cleaning as preventive maintenance, which is not needed unless you have serious driveability issues.
I've gone 11 years and 91K miles on the same belt in my 2006 Acura TL. I've gone back and forth on the whole time vs. mileage debate, but will wait until I hit 105K.
I've owned 4 Honda products and exceeded the timing belt interval with all four, including my 2012 TL which currently has 128K miles. With all four, I removed the timing belt cover twice a year or so and inspected it via turning the crank. I've never found a crack, break or any other sign of damage or wear. In every case the belts looked practically brand new.
I'm not encouraging someone not to change their timing belt. And I understand that a visual inspection is not an assurance of the belts integrity. If I were giving a friend advice I'll tell him to follow the maintenance interval. However, when it's my own neck on the line, it becomes very difficult to spend the money when I've observed what I have and never encountered a problem.
However, I think I'm at the point where I could tackle the job myself. My plan is to hunt down the Acura tech manual (if anyone has a link please feel free to post ) OR call the mechanic I used to use, back when I owned American vehicles and needed a mechanic, and see what he'd charge. Either way, I'm going to get it done this time but needless to say, I'm not in a mad rush or nervous in the least that the belt is going to break anytime soon.
Perfectly nice looking belts can snap from deterioration caused by heat from the inside. So yes, the belt looks nice and clean but... disaster awaits from the inside
Besides, it is not only the belt that needs changing at that mileage The belt tensioner won't last that long, and some say they leak oil and eventually seize. Other things need to change too, too many to mention.
If you do a search in the root of the 4G TL forum you'll find a post with a link to the repair manual.
Perfectly nice looking belts can snap from deterioration caused by heat from the inside. So yes, the belt looks nice and clean but... disaster awaits from the inside
Besides, it is not only the belt that needs changing at that mileage The belt tensioner won't last that long, and some say they leak oil and eventually seize. Other things need to change too, too many to mention.
If you do a search in the root of the 4G TL forum you'll find a post with a link to the repair manual.
I'd believe that. I'm struggling to find the repair manual however. If you know where it is, would you mind providing a link?
I've owned 4 Honda products and exceeded the timing belt interval with all four, including my 2012 TL which currently has 128K miles. With all four, I removed the timing belt cover twice a year or so and inspected it via turning the crank. I've never found a crack, break or any other sign of damage or wear. In every case the belts looked practically brand new.
I'm not encouraging someone not to change their timing belt. And I understand that a visual inspection is not an assurance of the belts integrity. If I were giving a friend advice I'll tell him to follow the maintenance interval. However, when it's my own neck on the line, it becomes very difficult to spend the money when I've observed what I have and never encountered a problem.
However, I think I'm at the point where I could tackle the job myself. My plan is to hunt down the Acura tech manual (if anyone has a link please feel free to post ) OR call the mechanic I used to use, back when I owned American vehicles and needed a mechanic, and see what he'd charge. Either way, I'm going to get it done this time but needless to say, I'm not in a mad rush or nervous in the least that the belt is going to break anytime soon.
You disassembled half the engine to take a look at the belt, and then decided to leave it after all that work?
04-25-2017, 09:05 PM
