SL1200MK4

The best offer that I got on the TL 6spd is $47,500 + tax. The same offer from two dealers. I am not sure if I can do much better than that, but will try. That is just $1500 off MSRP. The comparably equipped BMW 335xi is 51600 + tax. Included in the price difference is the "pre-paid" scheduled service. That price is possible with the $3500 cash incentive from BMW and aggressive pricing from the dealer.

The funny thing is that while the earthquake in Japan might have affected their supply. The world doesn't revolve around Honda. BMW is aggressively pricing their car in the mean time. I never thought the 335xi could be priced so close to the TL.

CalgaryAWDTL

But you're comparing a 2012 MY to a 2011 MY which is soon to be out dated when the F30 arrives next spring. In fact, as soon as the pics of the new 3 series is officially released with improved spec numbers etc that E9X series will drop like a rocket. Hence, DO NOT BUY IT which is what you'd be doing through BMW Financing. I would only lease a car that is about to be replaced with a newer model. Let BMW take the hit in 3 or 4 years assuming they give you a good enough residual.

With respect to these two deals, I would take the BMW but ONLY on a lease with a good residual. Go to Leasebusters.com and see if you can assume something better there or at least check out what other leases were costing on this car so they don't try to screw you with hidden numbers on the lease. As I said, to me no way is a TL worth anything close to 50K...lots of other nice used product out there too if you have the cash.

SL1200MK4

Yes and no. Of course everyone has a different level of risk tolerance.

The 2nd Gen TL that I am driving now have a high rate of transmission failure and it did fail once on me. So, driving the 335 really is no more dangerous than my TL now. If anything the transmission could lock up and cause sudden loss of control which is much worse than sudden loss of power.

It's like saying that people shouldn't buy Porsche 996 and 997.1 because of the IMS failure which is much uglier than a fuel pump failure.

CalgaryAWDTL

But it's just not a mater of risk tolerance. There is the annoyance of having to take your car into the shop at the worst times....don't also forget these infamous problems also affect resale. In Canada, BMW does not warranty the HPFP problem for 10 years (LOL) like in the States....in fact, they were very late to issue voluntary recalls up here and only after the TV show 20/20 made a stink about it in the States did BMW act after knowing about this problem since 2007. They still don't have a fix for it. It's just some crap software upgrading that they're doing just to fool the masses if I'm not mistaken.

SL1200MK4

I think we are in agreement with each other. I do have a slightly different perspective on the MY2011 vs MY2012 thing though.

True, the F30 will be introduced in 11month at the Geneva Auto Show. The sales rep mentioned that the F30 cars could hit the lot as early as April 2012. He was told that information during training.

But the TL will likely get a complete redesign in two years as 2014 model. So, if I do purchase the TL, I will be taking a huge hit on depreciation in two years anyways.

If we compare Apple to Apple. On a 36 month lease with 0 money down. The BMW is around $875 and the Acura is $783. Again the "pre-paid" schedule service is included with the BMW. That's literally less than $100 a month.

CalgaryAWDTL

There's your answer. $3600 more for the BMW over the 3 years sounds like the better deal but only because that TL is not a good deal at that price point.

Just so you know I paid $612(tax in) for my 335d lease (60K car!)back in 2009, drove the car for 1 year, and got it assumed with money back to me that essentially covered my lease payments for that whole year! I drove it for free for 1 year. How? I got 12K off the MSRP because they weren't selling well then as it was still a new thing and people are funny about diesals here in NA. My point is that sometimes it does make sense to lease a BMW (I ownly purchase used BMW though, not new, as in the case of my M3s) and in your case it makes more sense to lease that BMW over the TL if that is the only cars in the equation for you. However, I think you can do a bit better on the 335 lease.

Laters and GL.

P.S. your title of this thread is not fair for all the reasons I discussed above but no big deal...

VTEC Racer

It seems like all you are doing is looking for reasons why you shouldn't buy the TL. Why don't you just make things easier for yourself and get the BMW? In the end, you will be happier because you're not going to always be thinking about "what could have been".

SL1200MK4

I suspect that BMW Canada wants to buy some time and wait until the cars are out of warranty. Then they will charge you to fix the problem. You are right about the inconvenience. Plus if you car stall in the middle of no where in winter, you will be without heat while waiting for rescue to arrive.

At the end of the day, I will have to either decide between the TL and 335xi or maybe wait a bit until a better deal comes along.

Here is something interesting. Insurance on the AWD 335xi cost more than the RWD 335i. The coupe is also cheaper than the sedan. So, the 335i Coupe is actually the cheaper 335 to insure.

scfa

+1

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

Do yourself a favor and buy the BIMMER, the TL is "flawed" and does not have the image you want.

SL1200MK4

Read much?

MD-DRIVER

This morning, I would of said "no" the BMW is not worth the extra money.
BUT --- during an extended lunch break I went out and drove a 335I Coupe and a TL SH-AWD Advance.

Both are really nice cars, but I think I would now pay the extra for the BMW.
It just had more of the "wow" factor for me personally. It felt sportier and was more fun to drive. I actually took the TL out without a salesperson, so I really pushed it hard.
It handled nice and the power was fine, I had the tires screeching around a few turns but I never felt out of control. It just did not feel like I was in a sports sedan, If I was looking for a nice family car, I think the TL would be it. But, I am looking for something with a more sporty edge. Maybe it was that the BMW was a coupe, can't really put my finger on it. But I think I would enjoy the BMW more over the long run.

Gonna have to go back and look at the 335IS now also, and give the Audi S4 a second look.

scfa

actually i do but for some reason you only listen to what you want to hear. go buy the bimmer and post pics when you do and we'll all congratulate you. as I don't think you will be happy with Acura's flawed epic fail.

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

IMO.....as anyone would say to each is own ...as u said pricing might be slightly different where you are...but over here a maxed out TL is 45,085 that's SHAWD with advanced package.........305 HP....if you don't care about NAVI and ELS sound system car is about 40K ............still AWD 305 horses...................

BMW 335I Xdrive is 44k starting AWD 300 horses not to sure of what that comes with standard.........

Now on another note me i have a bias ...not because i have an acura but because i am a fairly big guy...........i have been in a 3 series before ....no type of room .......my TL has fit 4 adults comfortably ......

i believe they are both nice cars.....if room is not an issue for you and you like the bmw then go for it .....if you need your space the TL is the move other than that ....performance etc etc the cars aren't that much different ........which ever you prefer and what ever styling you could see your self with......for a couple of years.........either way your going to be spending money no matter if your saving 100 dollars or no dollars you need to get what you feel best fits your needs...........

everybody gets different cars for different reasons .....

SL1200MK4

Look guys, this is a TL forum and my intention is to use this thread to provide some feedback to Acura whether they care or not. There are plenty of problems with the BMW, from HPFP from exploding sunroofs, you name it.

For these having problem with the thread title, please note the question mark after "Epic Fail Acura". I did call the TL a failed product. Because it failed to hit the benchmark and that remark is not without basis. The 4th gen TL should be a continuous evolution, improvement and refinement over the previous generation. Instead Acura ran into several issues.

1. Exterior Design

Clearly it is not a home run to say the least. It is actually deal-breaker for many potential customers. Come on, even Acura knows and admits that. It's like how many would defend the design Pontiac Aztek?

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/surp...ker-11319.html


2. Interior Design

The maze of StarTrek theme buttons have been criticized by reviewers. I certainly believe that they can do better. Mind you that the front driver and passenger seats are very comfortable save for the slightly intrusive headrest. I praise their decision to keep the handbrake. It is an safety feature in my opinion.

3. Packaging

Unlike the exterior and interior design, the failed packaging design is both apparent and objective. Poor packaging design lead to an unusable rear middle seat and an odd shaped trunk. This a mid size family sedan, there really is no excuse for not providing room to seat 5 properly.

4. Pricing

Of course, this comes down to supply and demand. But I wonder if Acura is really pricing their cars at the most profitable point. There are many factors that must be considered, e.g. they can''t price it so low to the point that it affects the market position of the 5th gen TL. I don't have enough info to form an opinion on that. I can only say that they are not competitively priced to me at this point in time in the Canadian market. That's all.

Which is a real shame because mechanically this car is beautiful engineered and arguably superior to the Bimmer. If I hated the TL and love the 335 so much, I won't even both posting this thread. I will just go get the Bimmer.

In any case, I will be keeping my 2nd Gen TL no matter which car I decide to buy. So, one way or another I will always be a part of this community. Now if Acura comes out with a Type-S...

wakattack

I still think the 5 series is a better comparo to the TL.

That said, as a former 535i owner, I advise anyone to steer clear of the x35 series for now. They are absolutely horrendous with the hpfp situation. BMW has not been able resolve it. It doesn't do much good that they extended the warranty out on the hpfp to 120k miles, they did not extend the warranty on the programming, the injectors and rails. The failed hpfp always seems to require the replacement of one of these other non covered items, You can easy drop 2k or so a pop on a so called warrantied repair on the hpfp. Not only that once things go south it's often you will get the problem over and over again. sometimes in as little as two weeks other times maybe a couple of years. mine was replaced 3 times in one year, with a down time of over a month. It is not just me, read the BMW forums, there are a lot of people who love their twin turbo but can't wait for their lease to be up, so they can get away from the nightmare.

This is a much bigger deal than you realize. Because this is so prevalent of a problem, tons of cars have been lemoned in California (it's easier to lemon out there) and then resold on auction block in the rest of the country severly driving down the resell value of these cars. Once it is a buy back, BMW will not CPO it. Once out of warranty the x35 series goes into the proverbial toilet.

So if you are thinking about getting a x35 variant, I totally recommend getting to know your service manager well, and getbrid of the car after it is out of warranty. But I think you would do much better to make a different engine choice.

I don't think there is too much danger from the hpfp malfunction, just more of a major annoyance. You engine light will come on and you will suddenly have very little power, but enough to drive your sad car to the dealership.

Once BMW if they ever resolve this turbo problem, I will be out of my TL and quickly back into a 5 series, they are awesome. That power is unbelivable. Until then I am hanging out in reliable Honda world.

RedHOT

Is anything competitively priced in Canada? Everyone I know from Canada always complains about how stuff is so much more expensive then here in the states.

Hamma Tyme

So far the new BMW N55 engine has not had any problems like the N54.....so far. I agree the 10 year/ 120k extended is great on the HPFP, but not the rest of the fuel delivery system. The 535 will pin you in your seat with 300lbs of torque starting early on the tach and chip the engine by Dinan to experiance about 400lbs of torque and 380hp. Hands down the the car is solid, a pleasure to drive, and a true drivers car, and I'm not talking solely on a 0-60 BS rating. Buy one and experiance a European delivery and drive her on the autobahn and then it's understood why they call it the Ultimate Driving machine. I'm not exactly sure why I have never seen an Acura on the Autobahn during my travels to europe. I will admit the Acura hands down has and always had the best Nav setup.

CalgaryAWDTL

Almost everything is 20% more up here despite our dollar worth more than yours.

http://money.ca.msn.com/video/?cp-do...2-188344060500

bigfoot1523

Condoms are competitively priced here. I think.

CalgaryAWDTL

Yes, it does. There have been some reports since last spring about the N55 having the same issues with the HPFP. It's not as common but still there.

CalgaryAWDTL

It's a nice car but an M3 or GT3 is the car I'd much prefer to drive over there in those beautiful rodes with exceptional drivers who, by the way, actually take up to 2 years to get their licenses.

Hamma Tyme

Actually I would like to see these reports being I read the BMW sites and there has not been any proof. Of the few reports in fact were not the HPFP but a software issue. As soon as there is a reduced power alert, everyone jumps up and says HPFP. I read up on a few of these issues. But if you have a report, please post it here as I would like to read it and stay on top of any.

CalgaryAWDTL

Calgary BMW has already replaced fuel pumps on some early N55s. Of coarse, they prefer to keep this stuff quiet. I know this because I have many friends that work for these two dealerships in town. There have also been confirmed reports on E90Post by a few folks who have had to deal with this. It's not as common but the problem still does exist. I sure hope this gets all fixed by the time the new M3 comes out. The turbos in the diesals are not plagued by the same problems because they use different fuel pumps.

I loved my 335d with 425 lbs ft tq so I hear ya on the low end torque.

Hamma Tyme

Yes, they also stay to the right too. When you hit the passing lane at 140MPH, you have to make sure you pass quickly and move to the right being there maybe a car going 50MPH faster then you and up your ars pretty quickly and flashing brights, slamming on the horn, and giving the finger. If I was buying a toy, I would enjoy an GTR 3. But if you're buying a family sedan, you drive the autobahn with what you can buy.

Hamma Tyme

Actually the diesel does use the same pump but a different fuel running through it.

CalgaryAWDTL

That's very strange since the diesel pump runs at 10 times the pressure of a 335i.

Edward'TLS

The 2G TL/CL tranny is undoubtedly one big flop from Honda. Honda has since learn it's lesson, and has adopted drive-by-drive throttle in following Acura vehicles.

In fact, this 2G TL/CL tranny problem had not even caused a small dent in the overall sales figures for the 3G TL.

Here is the logic. Get rid of your "dangerous" 2G TL right NOW. Any new car on the market is highly unlikely to exhibit the same 2G tranny failure problem, even for the new TL's. However, buying the 335 is gonna land you on the same spot which is a continuation of driving a "dangerous" car, no matter how low your risk tolerance is.

Really, do you or do you NOT want to continue driving a "dangerous" car ?

Now your excuses . . . . .

SL1200MK4

Thanks you, that's probably the most honest and useful bits of information that I will get regarding the N55 series motor at the moment. Gave me lots to think about. Leasing the BMW makes a lot more sense.

The 5 series sure is nice, but 535xi does not come with a manual. I Simply don't have the money for a 550xi, otherwise wouldn't that be nice.

I showed pictures of a Bellanova White 2012 TL to a bunch of friends. Mostly girls that' don't know much about cars and they all dig the styling. It has grown on me a lot.

winstrolvtec

OP, the pricing issue is a result of a best case scenario for the 3 series as it is getting redone, it's a 2011, and they are looking to move what they have. The TL is a worst case buying scenario as it is a 2012 MMC ahead of schedule with not much inventory. I wouldn't buy either right now because chances are you will overpay for the TL at the moment and the 3 will be outdated in a few months with a complete redesign.

If it was me, I would wait until the new 3 dropped not to limit my options. Even then with the car being newly released, chances are it will not be that discounted or at all until year end of the first model year run and at the time of the new 3 release, the TL rates and discounts will be much better and the current 3 model will probably be a steal. At that time the ball will be completely in your court and you can pick which one you feel is the better buy and better car for you.

Even before that these are very different cars, really only grouped together because of price, for the most part. The 3 is the classic sport luxury compact with a very sporty feel throughout, smaller but well balanced and capable especially in a straightline. It's a more natural or pure handling and feeling sports car.

The TL is sort of a low end mid level, it has a lot of touring attrributes. Lighter steering and brake feel, it's larger, more spacious throughout and argubaly more comfortable and as relaxing to drive as a result. It's two very contrasting styles merged together which is something you sort need to be looking for or realize that it is something you have been looking for because the issue often is that it is too sporty for those who like the much softer elements of it or it's too soft or relaxd and maybe a bit artificial (meaning not as pure especially with the use of active torque vectoring) for those who still enjoy it's bottomline capablities which are excellent, suprisingly better than the 3 when it comes to full out handling and braking efforts, trialing only in acceleration but you won't notice too much with the 6MT and you also have to give consideration to it being a larger, heavier car.

I think that is one of the more important areas you need to focus on, as it determines what kind of driving experience you want. Personally I like having a little bit of both in the TL and having the balance of an overall great product in every area and category vs the 3 series which IMO just excels in one or two while suffering in major areas like resale and reliability.

As for areas like styling and features and functions, I won't comment because it's largely subjective and is a matter of preference because both cars have the same available stuff and they do the same things within 90% of each other. I think you will find a lot of trades offs when it comes to this area.

So I tend to focus on the objective first and work my way to more in depth analysis of the subjective then tie in some of the other areas and factors and you should have a decision but it's important to know yourself and want you want before you know the car. Hope this helps.

jginnane

Gosh!

Our 4G TL with tech was bought in April 2009 in the height of the economic crunch. $34,000 even. (US Dollars). We paid cash and my wife drove it home.

I remember that price exactly, because my Nissan 370Z w/ Touring came out to $34,013 in June 2009, meaning I paid more but got 2 fewer seats. (My wife thinks the TL is the better deal and I don't argue w/ her.


So ... What's this financin' stuff you're smokin'?

Iceman52489

I just wanted to mention that it's great we've convinced you to reconsider your options and I just wanted to add this in...

I don't know where you saw this on paper...or if you just assumed because they had 6+ more speaker system they automatically win. Acura's ELS Sound System has been ranked #1 since 2009 across the top 6 luxury car brands (When I say top 6, I don't mean Porsche+). Do a little more research on the system but I can't defend that it hit #1 this year though.

SL1200MK4

I have had some experience with the Logic 7 system and I was reasonably pleased with it. I just assumed that the Individual Sound will be even better, which might not be true I know. It is also rated at around twice the power as the Acura system. Assuming that both figure might be slightly inflated but the BMW will probably be a more powerful system. I like my bass.

Having said that, I will have to bring my own CD/MP3 samples in and give it a good listen to decide for myself.

Personally I still think that the navigation control interface is a failure. It is not as quick and intuitive as a touch screen. If they want to stick with a wheel controller, at least place it on a flat rather than vertical surface like BMW/Audi. It is more economical.

More importantly there is a good reason why I prefer a third party navigation solution. When it comes to updating the software and map information, it is much easier that way.

Hamma Tyme

That is exactly what the HPFP or how the High Pressure Fuel Pump functions. I asked this exact question to a master tech at BMW. They are two of the same.

the_razor

Good one

CalgaryAWDTL

Having owned a 2008 M3 and 2009 335d both of which had the top end "Individual Sound" system, there is no doubt it is a better sound system than Acura's. BMW's Individual sound system is by far the most clear and loudest stock system I have ever heard in any car!

Hamma Tyme

Agreed, the Logic 7 system is tough to beat! Much better then the stock BMW stereo.

draph

I purchased a 2010 TL SHAWD 6MT after leasing a 2007 335i 6MT rwd. In 42,000 miles, the HPFP never failed, but a fuel injector had to be replaced at about 20K. The car also burned a quart of oil every 7K, and it's sealed cooling system required a gallon or so of coolant to be added after about 25K (I wonder where it went - which makes me wonder if these blown N54 engines will have head gasket issues at some point). Maybe the leaking/burning coolant and oil helped keep the HPFP lubricated and cool.... ;-)

The 335 definitely "feels" different. Clever "ultimate driving machine" marketing had me believing it was "better", and I was making a compromise for reliability. After driving the TL now for a year, however, I have to say I have gotten used to the lighter electric steering in the TL which felt like a video game at first compared to the 335. There is road feel there, but just less noticeable, but still enough to tell you what's going on at the front wheels.

Also, the ELS sounds much better than the Logic7 in the 335 IMHO; but, like most Americans, I like bottom end (the "subwoofers" in the BMW are something like 3 inchers under the front seats, which are a joke if you like to feel and hear a little bass).

Finally, no question that the flat torque curve of the BMW makes it stronger in the low revs. My driving style got lazier in the BMW, and now I'm back to enjoying rowing the gears of a slick Honda drive train to get into the power band. The Acura SH-AWD makes turning out into busy traffic a much less harrowing affair compared to the BMW open diff rwd (honestly can't say how X drive would help, assuming all open diffs in that system, too).

draph

BTW, I'm not talking about rwd oversteer, here. I'm talking about one wheel spinning and the DSC killing power to the point it was like pulling out into traffic with my very first car, a 1984 Olds Ciera diesel....

With all the stability/traction stuff turned on, I can actually get power oversteer easier in the Acura SH-AWD 6MT than in could with the BMW. With the DSC system off, the one spinning wheel of the BMW could get the back end to come around.

CalgaryAWDTL

Is the logic 7 the same as the Individual? I didn't think it was but maybe it's just different names for the US and Canada. To be clear, the base BMW sound system sucks and is not the one I was referring to. That Individual sound system alone up here was an extra $1500 on my 335d and was worth every penny although I didn't really pay for it. It's also the stock system in the E92 M3 up here.

Hamma Tyme

I figured you were not referring to the stock system. I couldn't confirm the Logic 7 and the Individual are the same being I couldn't log on to BMW.ca because of some crazy survey. I would assume they are the same upgraded systems with different names.