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As many of us who own a 4G TL (also RL, MDX, ZDX and some Honda's) there is a known issue with the J37A engine that causes excessive oil consumption. Everyone is frustrated with this issue and ACURA (American Honda Motor Co. (AHM)), is failing to acknowledge there is an issue. Many customers are getting no where because many dealerships aren't aware because no TSB has been issued. Others are able to get to the next step which is an Oil Consumption Test (I suggest everyone demand that their dealership put them on one)! Depending on the results and the dealership pushing ACURA (AHM) you maybe lucky enough to get to the next stage, having the small blocked replaced. I was one of the lucky ones or so I thought until my "new" (2nd) engine continued consuming excessive oil.
Well I had enough of Acura (AHM) denying there is a defect, after my 3rd Oil consumption test and now on my 3rd "new" engine. I have been fighting ACURA (AHM) since May demanding they fix my TL or repurchase/replace my car. October 23, Acura (AHM) finally responded to me with the most inadequate and disappointing response.
I am paraphrasing from Acura's letters (which I've included); "While we do not feel that an unreasonable number of attempts or time out of service have been incurred to correct a substantial defect with your vehicle, we do agree that you have been inconvenienced and we would like to regain your faith in our product. AHM has agreed to provide you with a onetime cash settlement offer of $3,000 and a 5 year/120,000 Vehicle Service Contract (which I've previously purchased from my dealership when I purchased the car) in good faith and in the interest of customer satisfaction".
They then attached a 2nd page "Release Form". Again I'm paraphrasing "Consumer agrees to accept this amount in full settlement and compromise of any and all claims ... this release is not an admission of fault. This Release may be pleased as a full and complete defense to, and may be used as the basis for an injunction against any action, suit or other proceeding which may be instituted prosecuted or attempted in breach of this Release".
I love how they want a full release from any action or suit if I agree to the cash settlement, yet they acknowledge "a substantial defect with your vehicle".
Is there anyone else out there who has been offered a settlement by Acura?
Also, I am very interested in not only pursuing a personal lawsuit against Acura (AHM), but also would like to see how many other people would join a class action lawsuit against Acura. I have reached out to the attorney's who filed and won a similar class action against Honda for excessive oil.
I have been reading lots of people here are having the same issue that you are having so you are not alone. Did your car start consuming oil since new?
I guess I am one of the lucky ones. Mine is has 31,000 miles and so far it only consumes half quart every 4000 miles. That half quart usually happens on the last 1000 miles before I do my oil change (every 4000 miles or when MID reads 50%) and I have been using Mobile 1 5-20. This last oil change I used Castro Edge Premium and so far no oil consumption after 1300 miles... Knock on wood!!!
Good luck and do not give up! I would definitely join you if mine crap out... finger crossed...
Bought it new, but the oil issue didn't start or wasn't recognized until around 16,500 miles. Currently 20 days in to the BBB Autoline arbitration but preparing for my next step. Have done a lot of research and the word is starting to become public.
I just had a new short block installed. It, too, consumes oil. I am checking oil every two weeks and documenting everything. At this point, just documenting during the first 3,000 miles and have not brought the issue back to my local dealer yet. Have not decided whether or not I am going to continue the fight with AHM Corporation. So no, I have NOT been offered the settlement you provided in your OP. Again, I just got a new short block to replace the original, so on my second short block now and yes it too consumes oil.
I'd join a class action suit at this point I think.
Last edited by HondaOwnerForLife; 11-29-2015 at 06:07 AM.
Reason: spelling
Mike, I had my first replaced about 34,500 and the second at 41,500 so basically 7k later. It would have been sooner but the dealership where I recently moved to is worthless and I went back to my orginal dealer 750 miles away. Mike, I also sent you a PM but I suggest you get started with Acura ASAP!!!
Hadokenuh, that this point I totally agree with you at this point. Acura is not doing anything. But the sad part is I received 3 different trade in values, 2 from Acura dealerships and 1 from a Lexus dealership. And because both engine replacements show up on Auto Check & CarFax I was only offered an average of $12,000 for my car, when NADA & KBB both value a comparable but "conforming" TL @ $22,000 - $23,000.
^^ That's nutty. With a brand new motor, the value should be higher, if anything, assuming it was installed by factory trained mechanics with OEM parts, which I understand is what happened in your case.
Hadokenuh, that this point I totally agree with you at this point. Acura is not doing anything. But the sad part is I received 3 different trade in values, 2 from Acura dealerships and 1 from a Lexus dealership. And because both engine replacements show up on Auto Check & CarFax I was only offered an average of $12,000 for my car, when NADA & KBB both value a comparable but "conforming" TL @ $22,000 - $23,000.
If that's the case, then you know have some hard numbers to counter their offer. Give Acura the trade in offers you get, ask them to make it square. IF they still refuse to rectify the situation, you'll have to talk to an attorney (maybe 2) to see what options you have.
Originally Posted by JM2010 SH-AWD
^^ That's nutty. With a brand new motor, the value should be higher, if anything, assuming it was installed by factory trained mechanics with OEM parts, which I understand is what happened in your case.
Only if the brand new motor doesn't burn oil. It's apparently a flawed design somehow Acura still hasn't figured out how to fix. So they dropped the 3.7 all together. Of course it's my speculation.
I haven't bothered physically checking the oil level myself since the last car I owned that used oil was maybe my 1970 Roadrunner. With the old American cars this was just one of those things and I got in the habit of checking oil level frequently. Once I started buying Asian and/or German cars the habit of checking oil remained but it took me a while to figure out that the level never seemed to drop. Even in my 1995 Corvette checking the oil level became a waste of time--level never went down between my 6-month changes. Same thing with our 2000 TL.
I have been bringing the 2012 TL in to the dealer for the scheduled maintenance (per the Maintenance light) which ends up maybe every 6 to 8 months based on our driving but maybe I should routinely be inspecting the oil level?
Is this problem confined to the 3.7 engine used in the AWD or also the 3.5 engine?
...
I love how they want a full release from any action or suit if I agree to the cash settlement, yet they acknowledge "a substantial defect with your vehicle".
...
When did they acknowledge a defect? Was it in writing, or verbal?
OP, were you able to get a new engine placement TWICE?
After much battle Acura finally replaced my engine recently with a new one b/c my existing engine had valve damage. I haven't monitored oil levels yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if the engine is still flawed and design unchanged.
When did they acknowledge a defect? Was it in writing, or verbal?
I don't see it either. I see that they disagreed with the notion that the car had been out of service an inordinate amount of time due to a substantial defect and that the settlement agreement they asked the OP to sign explicitly stated that AHM was not admitting fault or liability. Completely consistent and pretty ordinary in resolutions of this type.
When did they acknowledge a defect? Was it in writing, or verbal?
Originally Posted by JM2010 SH-AWD
I don't see it either. I see that they disagreed with the notion that the car had been out of service an inordinate amount of time due to a substantial defect and that the settlement agreement they asked the OP to sign explicitly stated that AHM was not admitting fault or liability. Completely consistent and pretty ordinary in resolutions of this type.
Second line of second para. of letter dated 10/23/15.
The second letter isn't a surprise releasing them of liability and not accepting fault, I actually had to sign one recently for my windshield that was damaged by my State and had to settle with the Department of Treasury.
At this point on your third motor, what's the oil consumption like? Personally $3k and an extended warranty on the existing stuff seems like a fair offer. $3k will buy you a shit ton of oil if that's the concern and if the motor craps out again, I assume the 5/120 that they're offering would cover it.
The second letter isn't a surprise releasing them of liability and not accepting fault, I actually had to sign one recently for my windshield that was damaged by my State and had to settle with the Department of Treasury.
At this point on your third motor, what's the oil consumption like? Personally $3k and an extended warranty on the existing stuff seems like a fair offer. $3k will buy you a shit ton of oil if that's the concern and if the motor craps out again, I assume the 5/120 that they're offering would cover it.
The diminished value is the big deal to me. Who wants to replace an engine every 15-30k miles? Even if it's no charge, it's a hassle. His only other option is to sell it but he's going to take a big loss because of the work that shows up on Carfax.
That's my problem with OP's anecdote; damned if you do, damned if you don't. My car is burning oil but not to the extreme that would require engine replacement. So what am I to do? Hope that it stays the same so that at the end of powertrain warranty I trade it in on something else? What if the engine needs to be replaced during that time. Do I want that replacement on the car's "record"? What if it happens outside the warranty?
I'm getting close to settling on selling/trading in the car at the end of the warranty and it's a sad day in my mind because every possible replacement for this car is either going to be a big let down in features/qualities or going to be much more money than what I paid for it.
Mike, I had my first replaced about 34,500 and the second at 41,500 so basically 7k later. It would have been sooner but the dealership where I recently moved to is worthless and I went back to my orginal dealer 750 miles away. Mike, I also sent you a PM but I suggest you get started with Acura ASAP!!!
Hadokenuh, that this point I totally agree with you at this point. Acura is not doing anything. But the sad part is I received 3 different trade in values, 2 from Acura dealerships and 1 from a Lexus dealership. And because both engine replacements show up on Auto Check & CarFax I was only offered an average of $12,000 for my car, when NADA & KBB both value a comparable but "conforming" TL @ $22,000 - $23,000.
I just saw this post. OP, this seriously sucks on the value of your car. I'm in a comparable boat with a new engine. My car so far has been working well but I need to check on the oil level wrt oil consumption.
I've been seriously thinking of trading in my TL as well. A new engine should theoretically maintain or even enhance a car's value, so I'm not sure why the dealerships are dinging you for the new engine. Possible stealership low ball strategy?
Now I'm curious to see what my car is worth with the new engine. Time permitting I'm going to take it to a Lexus or Toyota dealership this weekend to see what they would offer on a trade-in for a 4Runner or NX. Now I'm wondering if the new engine replacement will show up on my TL's carfax.
If I too get jipped on the NADA/KBB value I may be forced to try and sell it privately, which would be a HUGE inconvenience and at that point I would be seriously pissed off, again.
Second line of second para. of letter dated 10/23/15.
Oh, I see. I thought there was something else. But that's not what the letter says. I agree, it's a bit "clunky" as language goes, but that's not an acknowledgement of a substantial defect. I can see how you might read that into the letter, but that's not what it says.
Sadly, you won't get very far throwing that back at them.
I just saw this post. OP, this seriously sucks on the value of your car. I'm in a comparable boat with a new engine. My car so far has been working well but I need to check on the oil level wrt oil consumption.
I've been seriously thinking of trading in my TL as well. A new engine should theoretically maintain or even enhance a car's value, so I'm not sure why the dealerships are dinging you for the new engine. Possible stealership low ball strategy?
Now I'm curious to see what my car is worth with the new engine. Time permitting I'm going to take it to a Lexus or Toyota dealership this weekend to see what they would offer on a trade-in for a 4Runner or NX. Now I'm wondering if the new engine replacement will show up on my TL's carfax.
If I too get jipped on the NADA/KBB value I may be forced to try and sell it privately, which would be a HUGE inconvenience and at that point I would be seriously pissed off, again.
I recall when I was searching for 10-11 SH-AWD 6MTs before I bought my car, there were two in the northeast that were listed on Autotrader for, on average, about $2-4k less than comparable cars. The only difference being they had small block replacement notations on their Carfax records.
It's sad because it doesn't say anything about the balance of the car, but it's record is effectively tainted.
I wonder if the VSC offered by AHM helps the case for the car's value or not.
3K is enough to get a motor rebuilt and be even better. I'd take the 3K and be happy.
IMHO $3K would be ok if the new motor is a problem-free one. Problem is with OP's rate of having oil consumption with the engine, it's doubtful Acura will have engineered the "new" engine to be resolved of its oil consumption issues. I don't hold a crystal ball, but said problem is likely to continue.
Question on mind now is why are some 3.7V6 owners having oil consumption issues, and others are not.
Second line of second para. of letter dated 10/23/15.
I read it to mean just the opposite -- they disagree with the OP's claim that the car has been out of service an inordinate amount of time or that an unreasonable amount of repairs have been necessary to correct a substantial defect. But it certainly could have been written better.
IMHO $3K would be ok if the new motor is a problem-free one. Problem is with OP's rate of having oil consumption with the engine, it's doubtful Acura will have engineered the "new" engine to be resolved of its oil consumption issues. I don't hold a crystal ball, but said problem is likely to continue.
Question on mind now is why are some 3.7V6 owners having oil consumption issues, and others are not.
Get the block re-sleeved with Darton liners and you won't have to worry at all about the silicon lined walls! NO more oil consumption either.
Question on mind now is why are some 3.7V6 owners having oil consumption issues, and others are not.
That's the million dollar question right there IMO. The J37A4 consumes oil at an abnormally high rate. I think they all consume oil and that folks simply do not realize it or choose to just add oil and live with it.
The diminished value is the big deal to me. Who wants to replace an engine every 15-30k miles? Even if it's no charge, it's a hassle. His only other option is to sell it but he's going to take a big loss because of the work that shows up on Carfax.
That's my problem with OP's anecdote; damned if you do, damned if you don't. My car is burning oil but not to the extreme that would require engine replacement. So what am I to do? Hope that it stays the same so that at the end of powertrain warranty I trade it in on something else? What if the engine needs to be replaced during that time. Do I want that replacement on the car's "record"? What if it happens outside the warranty?
I'm getting close to settling on selling/trading in the car at the end of the warranty and it's a sad day in my mind because every possible replacement for this car is either going to be a big let down in features/qualities or going to be much more money than what I paid for it.
Diminished value is an issue, but let's look at it -
He's using the trade-in value of the vehicle to a dealership - probably not even looking at buying a new car there. Of course they're going to lowball him. That's what dealerships do for trade-ins. The vehicle would probably go to auction and maybe they'll get $20k for it or maybe they'll get $14k for it. They aren't going to give you its value since they're taking the risk of flipping it.
The motor swaps were done at an Acura dealership and the OP has documentation that proves who, why, when, etc and now has an extended warranty. For the vast majority of private sales, I think that would be sufficient to where it may knock a few grand off the price but not $10k.
I know Honda, CarMax, and a Mazda dealer offered me $2.5k for my '03 Pilot as a trade-in. I stuck it on Craigslist for $7800 (KBB/NADA Excellent value) and it sold within a month to the first person that looked at it.
Shit, I spent $30k on my TL and it's got 30k more miles on it in one year of ownership, take a guess how much CarMax or Acura would offer me for it? I'm betting way way way less than what I owe on it.
It's a shitty situation.
Acura is giving him $3k and an extended warranty. That brings his trade-in value to $15k if we're being technical.
That's the million dollar question right there IMO. The J37A4 consumes oil at an abnormally high rate. I think they all consume oil and that folks simply do not realize it or choose to just add oil and live with it.
.5qt every 5k miles for mine. Incredibly ok in my books.
IMHO $3K would be ok if the new motor is a problem-free one. Problem is with OP's rate of having oil consumption with the engine, it's doubtful Acura will have engineered the "new" engine to be resolved of its oil consumption issues. I don't hold a crystal ball, but said problem is likely to continue.
Question on mind now is why are some 3.7V6 owners having oil consumption issues, and others are not.
Are we sure OP isn't just that guy and is over-exaggerating the oil consumption of the two brand new replacement motors in effort to Lemon Law the car for oil consumption and/or attempt a lawsuit against Acura for personal gain? What better way to do that then to bitch and complain to your dealer, get 3 new motors, then come to a forum where most acknowledge an oil consumption issue and then drum up support of everyone and kickstart a lawsuit.
What if he's using the same (garbage) oil that's prone to burning off? Mobil1 in my S2000 practically evaporates out of that sucker. I use Castrol Syntec and it's nice and happy now.
I'd love to see what the actual tests are being run, how we're measuring oil consumption, if different oils have been used, if the oil has been sent to Blackstone for performance/consistency at the oil change intervals, etc.
*edit*
Case and point. The OP (acurakid_slc) has only two threads on the forum. Both about oil consumption, the first one even titled 'Lemon'
All of the OP's posts are in oil consumption threads. Every. Single. One.
They make no mention of if the car was purchased new. I presume it was not. They had an short block replacement at 35k miles. Then another (presumably) around 40k miles.
Does everyone honestly believe a brand new shortblock demolished 100% of it's oil within a single oil change interval as claimed by OP?
Last edited by TheMuffinMan; 12-02-2015 at 03:16 PM.
Pretty much the liner for the engine block (grey circles in the center):
These liners are what contact the pistons and rings, and the oil goes between them to lubricate the moving surfaces. The factory liners are created with a silicon layer that is supposed to reduce friction. This layer is apparently breaking down or damaging the rings causing oil consumption.
Since there is no exact method to making the Acura Silicon liners, some liners may be perfect while others are failing, hence why some have terrible oil consumption while others have little to none.
People use these darton sleeves for high output motors since they can handle a lot of turbo/supercharger boost compared to the factory ones. Old liners are removed, new ones are pressed into place. That way you don't have to rehone the block either.
Originally Posted by HeartTLs
TAGGED. Darton liners. Silicone walls.
Carry on~
Originally Posted by HondaOwnerForLife
That's the million dollar question right there IMO. The J37A4 consumes oil at an abnormally high rate. I think they all consume oil and that folks simply do not realize it or choose to just add oil and live with it.
A lot of acura owners don't reguarly check on their own cars, they let the dealer handle it. The 3.7L used in the 2010-2013 MDX and the 2009-2014 TL both have oil consumption issues and that's when they used the silicon liners and also made the switch to 0w-20 oil.
Some dealerships put in 0w-20 even though the SH-AWD is supposed to be 5W-20. I'd highly recommend using some 0W-40 oil to see if it helps with the oil consumption.
It's a good question. Honda (and other manufacturers) have been using Nikasil liners on two- and four-stroke motorcycle engines for many years. It is tried and true technology and extremely durable. Why some J37s use more oil than others is a mystery. Especially when many report that the consumption is not linear, i.e., consumption at the front end of the oil change cycle is negligible but increases with more miles on an oil change. Someone who has a good technical background in motors and lubrication should be able to draw some conclusions from that clue. But I haven't seen any credible hypotheses yet.
It's a good question. Honda (and other manufacturers) have been using Nikasil liners on two- and four-stroke motorcycle engines for many years. It is tried and true technology and extremely durable. Why some J37s use more oil than others is a mystery. Especially when many report that the consumption is not linear, i.e., consumption at the front end of the oil change cycle is negligible but increases with more miles on an oil change. Someone who has a good technical background in motors and lubrication should be able to draw some conclusions from that clue. But I haven't seen any credible hypotheses yet.
The nikasil liners are part of the problem as the oil is shearing and is loosing volume to to the viscosity modifiers and other components in the oil breaking down and burning off. Other than the nikasil liners on the 3.7, nothing else really differs that could be causing the issue.
The TL with 3.7 engines AWD had oil burning problems, the 3.5 engines didn't have to much of the oil burning problem as 3.7 stay away from those 3.7 AWD TL. If you can trade it in for the TL with 3.5 engine front wheel drive do it ,Acura aren't going to own up to 3.7 oil burning problem, the dealership knows whats up they are not going to tell you anything they just want to sell cars , Service guy or gal just going to rake you over hot coals $$$. TL is a good car just not the TL 3.7 ENGINE AWD, tell yours friend stick with 3.5 TL 2010- 2014
The nikasil liners are part of the problem as the oil is shearing and is loosing volume to to the viscosity modifiers and other components in the oil breaking down and burning off. Other than the nikasil liners on the 3.7, nothing else really differs that could be causing the issue.
Except for the fact that the 3.7 has variable valve timing on the exhaust, and the 3.5 does not. That exhaust valve, AFAIK, is open, slightly, when the intake is, to help usher out exhaust gases.
So, I wonder, when the exhaust is pushed out, by the incoming intake pulse, does it take some oil with it? Theory: when the exhaust gases are pushed out, it should create a vacuum, thereby, pulling oil past the rings... If it does, keeping your engine below 4,700 RPM's should "help" oil loss.
Anyway, I could be, and probably am, way off base. But, I figured I'd share my thoughts, FWIW.
Yes that probably true in the 3.7 variable valve timing and 3.5 does not Beak14, for me and you and some other would understand that, the average everyday husband and wife aren't going to know the difference, they need layman term. The old RL 2005 - 2008 had 3.5L engine HAD AWD they didn't had a lot oil burning problems, it like when Honda switch from the 3.5 to 3.7 engines for there TL AWD something happen it could be what you describe between the 3.5 and 3.7. Everybody I know that had 3.5 didn't have as much of the horrible oil burning problem, of always checking the oil dipstick every thousand mile to see if they lost a quart, those issue is very scary for a woman or a everyday husband and wife, me or you might be able to figure it out ,they won't. All they know they just spend15 0r 20 grand or more on there car, she or he ain't going to watching if their RPM are below 4,700 while driving everyday to work. Your not going to find to many Major brand Car Dealership salesman telling you hay don't get that one it has oil burning problems. If there TL AWD 3.7 is giving you problems Dump it and trade it in before it dumps you and your pockets dry. I would take my chance with 3.5L TL front wheel drive it get better gas mileages, just get a good set of winter tires if you live where it snow in the winter. Destroying your engine from not having enough oil in it, "WHO ARE THERE GOING TO BLAME? " it won't be them; YOU. If your the everyday Male, Female, Husband Wife having oil burning problem , there's no solution dealership aren't working with you to try to fix the issue.Try to find a 3 party warranty for your car, that might help with cost of some repairs, if you can trade it when your able to. Research online with Carcomplaints.com or Google car problems, whatever car your looking to buy before you buy it, to see if there some issue you can resolve with aftermarket parts and a good mechanic buddy, so you and your hard earn money part ways with you. Don't roll the dices and get snake eyes. 3.7L TL AWD had problems oil burning 2009-2013, don't get burn out. Remember dealership just wants to sale cars. future Advice lease new cars, that way you don't get stuck with a 40 50 60 grand, expensive lemon you can't get rid of. Good luck out there with those who have oil burning problems there 3.7 TL AWD hope you find a solution.
Except for the fact that the 3.7 has variable valve timing on the exhaust, and the 3.5 does not. That exhaust valve, AFAIK, is open, slightly, when the intake is, to help usher out exhaust gases.
So, I wonder, when the exhaust is pushed out, by the incoming intake pulse, does it take some oil with it? Theory: when the exhaust gases are pushed out, it should create a vacuum, thereby, pulling oil past the rings... If it does, keeping your engine below 4,700 RPM's should "help" oil loss.
Anyway, I could be, and probably am, way off base. But, I figured I'd share my thoughts, FWIW.
I'll probably regret posting this, lol.
Don't regret posting anything! You may have stumbled onto something here!
Can any 3.7L owners perform a leakdown and/or compression test?
11-29-2015, 12:12 AM
Acura's Response to Excessive Oil Consumption
