Originally Posted by Cap'n Preshoot

Understood completely. 805 myself and I didn't get to this point in life by making foolish decisions. We raised 7 children and all were taught the same lesson, unfortunately only 1 listened and today has his law degree.

Originally Posted by ggesq

Yes, they are trying to steal your car. Try and negotiate more for it or leave. Sell it privately or find a different dealer.

Originally Posted by erick3

okay, i'm not experienced in this sort of financing at all - i have my folks typically come down during vehicle purchases to talk logistics. despite, the 10k for your TL-S doesn't sound too far-fetched. if it's not a number you want to hear, then push for some more money. if not, haggle more for them to bring down the price on that 2012. you CAN get it for invoice - absolutely, 100%. just push push push! if it takes you getting up and leaving, then do it. it took me 3 months to get the price i wanted for my infiniti; i'm really not the patient type (make sure to bring your alter ego). best way to do your negotiations is to bring other dealerships into the equation (the reason my infiniti took so long was because we only have 2 proximal infiniti dealers in washington, both owned by the same owner).

good luck!

edit: sounds like you already have your decision. i was unaware of your future child! congratulations man! a newborn truly turns everything upside down (in a good way). our family, well my brother, just had his first daughter! again, congratulations....and good luck lol

PS for all you financial gurus out there - i was told when purchasing my infiniti that my credit score was just shy of being able to PURCHASE the car (750+). i've always considered myself to be in good standing in terms of credit (apparently not...?). my dad co-signed (extremely good credit from what i've heard), and as it turns out, we were qualified for 0.0% apr. should i see an increase in my own personal credit score after the payments are through with the car? the car is under my name...

Originally Posted by Mr Marco

Agreed. Sometimes you need to get up and walk out of the little room. Also, Winsrtolvtech is on the money. "Also the credit score is not as much of an issue as it seems. He qualifies for Acura's best rates on the vehicle (2.9% for 60 months), ..." I recently looked at refinancing the TL to a lower rate (3.9% Acura Financial Used) but no one has a better rate right now (State Farm offered me 3.49% but 1/2 a percent isn't worth it). 2.9% is good, but Acura may offer a better rate next month as more inventory starts to move. The point is there is nothing wrong with the OP trading up for something better. Sure (OP) keep the Type S if you want, but don't take any shit from these guys about being in a hole...you are not.

Originally Posted by Mr Marco

Dealers are such pricks with trade-ins. I hate it when they use KBB to sell a car for a higher price, then turn around and tell you your car isn't worth the KBB "Trade-in Value". What a bunch of crap. The trade-in value is set by actual trade-in prices that other dealers paid. Next time I hear "Your car just isn't worth that much money anymore" or "KBB is way off the mark, we don't use it." I'm going to tell them I will just take my business to a dealer that does.

Originally Posted by eazy

I know a friend who gets letters from Rallye Acura all the time asking him to trade his car in for a good deal on a new Acura because his car is in high demand(type S that is). Is this the dealer you bought from originally?

Originally Posted by kingmiller82

Hello all, I have a few questions about me "Possibly" buying a 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance!!

You guys may remember me from the Lexus Is-F vs 2012 TL Thread, but after talks with my wife and my first born will be here in 4 weeks we have decided on a 2012 TL or an 2011 MDX.

Ok, so I am at the Acura Dealership, I was approved to be financed by Acura/Honda. They asked if I was trading in anything so I said yea, my 2007 TL Type S. They wanted me to come down and do an appraisal on it. Ok, while i am down there doing paper work, a guy is checking my car, and test driving it. The 2012 MSRP was $45,945 they gave me a $1,300 Courtesy Discount bringing it down to $44,645.

He gave me two interest rates, either 2.9% for 60 months or 4.9% for 72 months.

He is the sad part. My Type S had exactly 90,000 on it when I got there 3 days ago, It's flawless inside and out. I owe $16,500 on it. Well the Stealership said because of the Mileage they can only give me $10,000 for it!!!!!!!!! That blew my mind, I knew it would be negative equity but not that much!!!

I told them before they assessed it, that I would put down $5,000, so they will be roughly financing me about $39,645.

The other kicker is my monthy Payments!!!

$904 x 60 Months
$834 x 72 Months

Overall I am thinking they are trying to screw me all the way around on this deal.

What do you guys think? My credit is good not great, they pulled from my experian credit score which is a 695. And when I bought my 2007 Infiniti M45 and was financed $55K My monthly payments was that of $750 x 72 months and these creeps asking for 834 for 72 months???

What do you guys think? If you was in this situation, how would you handle it and what would you say while negotiating??

Thanks

Originally Posted by acurator99

The trade in value of your 90K 2007 TL-S should be around $15K. They are definitely screwing you over by offering 10K.
On the flip side you will screwing yourself over with $834 a month which is a waste of money considering you are planning to get a brand new TL. You do realize it will depreciate about 20% as soon as you drive it off the lot? So that's like burning $8K in a few seconds. Then when the 2014 TL comes around you will complain about the trade in offered for your 2012 TL. There is no end to spending money which you do not have since you are trying to finance. Why not put that $834 into a college fund for the child you are expecting?
What's the point of spending money which you do not have; trying to buying things you do not need; to impress people you do not care about?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Preshoot

Some more "fatherly" advice... I'll turn 65 next month, so I think this qualifies me

With a new baby on the way, my opinion is that an MDX would make a hellouvalot more sense than a TL. The TL is an "I-Wanna" whereas the MDX is an "I-Needa".

But more importantly, the bottom line is this: can you really afford either? From what you've told us, I don't think so.

As for your credit score, these vary depending on who it comes from (Experian, TRW, etc) but 695 is no doubt the reason you couldn't get better financing. What lenders are subtly telling you is you're not, as the fine print in the TV ads says, "a qualified buyer". In terms more easily understood, they're telling you that you have champaign tastes on a beer budget. You're also upside-down on your trade-in, meaning you'll be financing not only the entire price of the new car, but an additional $6500 on top of that (minus the $5k cash down).

Your trade-in is what it is. You'll probably get more for it selling it outright, but if you do then you'll lose the sales tax credit. To explain, if the trade-in value is $10,000 and your state sales tax rate is 7%, trading it in will reduce the sales tax on the new car by $700 (because you're only charged sales tax on the difference). In other words, if you're able to sell it for $1000 more than the dealer's offer, your net gain is only $300, not the $1000. Selling it outright also means you'll have to pay it off. Do you have $16,500 laying around? Probably not. (selling it yourself is also a royal P.I.T.A.)

What's your present job status (likelihood of continued employment)? What shape is your employer in? Does your wife work (or otherwise contribute to the family income)? How stable is her job? With a new baby, either she stays home to care for it or you start forking out cubic dollars for child care. How would a loss of either your or her job affect your ability to pay your rent or house note + a huge car note and still be able to put food on the table? (do you really want the car that badly?)

A 2007 TL with 90,000 on it is very high mileage. First of all, it's out of warranty. Secondly, it's only 30,000 miles away from requiring MAJOR engine servicing (timing belt) plus whatever it's currently due for. Thirdly, with the 2012's on the lot it means your 2007 just had another birthday. The reality is it's now 5 years old, not 4. Personally, without trying to insult you, I think a $10,000 offer was fair.

Without seeing the "big picture", just from what you've told us I really don't see you as someone who is in any position to be considering a new car, certainly not one that's $45k. I also would not (never-ever) consider re-financing a car I'm already upside-down on. I'd say wait until at least a year after the baby is here and then reexamine your financial situation.

Originally Posted by Mr Marco

Dealers are such pricks with trade-ins. I hate it when they use KBB to sell a car for a higher price, then turn around and tell you your car isn't worth the KBB "Trade-in Value". What a bunch of crap. The trade-in value is set by actual trade-in prices that other dealers paid. Next time I hear "Your car just isn't worth that much money anymore" or "KBB is way off the mark, we don't use it." I'm going to tell them I will just take my business to a dealer that does.

Originally Posted by wakattack

A quick review of auto trader with TL-s from 2007

15,000 87k miles Private Seller
18,000 75k miles
18,000 86k miles private seller
19,500 51k miles
19,500 89k miles
19,900 73k miles
20,000 76k miles
20,000 73k miles
20,000 73k miles

If your car is in very good shape, I would think you could get $14 TO $15K for it on the used market.

Technically they should give you about that for your trade in, but you have two things working against you, the mileage and the type S. The mass amount of people are just looking for a TL, and not the S, so it's a smaller percentage of buyers, also the higher mileage cars tend to sit on the lots longer. I would think auction prices are about 5k off of the 19,500 which is about $13500 to $14500 for your car. So they are low balling you, but it's probably hard for them to move your car.

I would list it for $15500 and see if you get any bites.

I actually prefer the TL over the MDX for a small family. Better fuel economy, and it's a safer vehicle. The MDX is pretty rough on fuel. I do like the storage space and third row seating on the MDX though.

Originally Posted by winstrolvtec

It makes perfect sense to get a new car with an addition to the family coming, a car with 90k miles on it, payments on it still being made, and no warranty. I don't believe the finances are a question here, in this situation the OP already ownes and is paying for a TLS, which is not much cheaper. My SH actually costs me less than my 07 TLS, same terms and conditions, money down, etc.

True, it would be better for everyone to just get by with less expensive livestyles and try to save as much as possible but that's not really how things work (not that I agree with that) and if he is willing to put down $5k and can pay, that's his decision. Speaking from experience, he already has the payment for the TLS and if things start going wrong mechanically, it needs brakes and tires, and/or you have to pay for an expensive extended warranty, sometimes it's not a bad thing or necessarily more expensive (short term), to get a new car.

The issue is the trade in and it is low. There is no reason, considering the OP is willing to pay almost full sticker on a newly released car, that the dealer can't eat the payoff and just finance him the new car, worst case, $13k is respectable number for trade in, not $10k. They just smell blood in the water.

Also the credit score is not as much of an issue as it seems. He qualifies for Acura's best rates on the vehicle (2.9% for 60 months), so it seems it's actually a non issue.

Instead of just trying to get him away from buying a new car, which in itself is not bad advice but why not also lend some advice on how to make the situation to buy one better?

Originally Posted by eazy

I know a friend who gets letters from Rallye Acura all the time asking him to trade his car in for a good deal on a new Acura because his car is in high demand(type S that is). Is this the dealer you bought from originally?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Preshoot

Right now, just 2 weeks after the initial release, no one is doing much if any discounting on 2012's, particularly SH-AWD models. They're still in very short supply.

Your present car (your trade-in) is not worth a penny more than you can sell it for. You might do better by going to CarMax, but if you've got the hots for something that's on the lot right now, it may not be there tomorrow.

The dealer can also sense your anxious desire to have that new one, placing you in a very poor bargaining position. He knows you want that car some kind'a bad & are laying awake nights thinking about it. Trust me, he knows.

So you have to ask yourself, as bad as you want it, is it really worth 800+ a month and going in hock up to your eyeballs, leveraging your life for the next 5 whole years? - also think for just a moment how you're going to feel 10 or 12 payments from now or when the 2013 comes out.
.

Originally Posted by RedHOT

Hi,

First off you need to get them to lower the price of the new car ~ 43,360 (includes dest). That's $1,285 less than the price they offered you.

Do not take a penny less than $17,000 for your trade. If its clean even with 90k miles it's worth that all day long.

Assuming the prices above and 5k down you would be looking at roughly $707 a month for 60 @ 2.9 apr. (using 6% tax not sure what it is in your area)

Contact every dealer around you by email regardless of if they have the car you want or not. Figure out what they are willing to give you for trade and work from there. You need to play them off each other. Hopefully you have a bunch of dealers close to you.

Originally Posted by kingmiller82

As far as my financial background goes, I am pretty stable, I say pretty because nothing is promised, but I work for a great company, and made my first 6 figure salary at the age of 25 (Petroleum Engineer), and my wife is currently out of work, and this is my first child, so it'll be a great new experience. Thanks All

Originally Posted by Cap'n Preshoot

Sorry but I disagree. While the offer is admittedly low, the mileage is shockingly high. The dealer has some prep costs (both mechanical as well as cosmetic) in making it ready for sale. At 90K there's already some major required work due that has to be done before it can be re-sold at retail. It may also need tires. I think it's possible (if not likely) with that high of mileage on a 2007 that the dealer won't waste time fooling with it and will take it straight to the auction as-is and dump it. High mileage on an old car is expected. On an otherwise reasonably new model high mileage is a huge wart that makes it tough to sell unless they're really short of cars on their used lot. It being a Type-S certainly helps but that mileage keeps coming back to haunt a would-be buyer. To compensate, the dealer will have to offer some kind of minimal warranty. - and yes, the dealer is entitled to a reasonable profit.

I agree that you should get one or two additional "buy-bids", just remember there's a payoff owed on it making it hard to sell it outright, because you can't give the buyer a clear title. You acknowledged early-on in this thread that you know you have negative equity, the only thing we're disputing is how much.

"Go for it, go for it" is the sideline cheer of inexperience and foolishness. - The cheering section doesn't have to make the payments, you do.

Originally Posted by kingmiller82

Everyone makes great since in this thread, I appreciate it all,and I think I will hold on to this bad boy for another year, (I believe I will have it paid off by Xmas) and go from there, I like this forum because there are many people with so much knowledge and I come to you guys for the best advice and Is never let down!!!

Thanks All

Originally Posted by Slinks

I agree with the digressers and would recommend you keep your car; regardless of financial situation but if you really want to a new car...

Here's a question (dont need to answer it publicly): Would you feel comfortable paying cash for the car brand new (pretending there was no trade)?
If the answer is no, I would suggest you keep your existing tl. If the answer is yes, then consider upgrading.

My personal opinion is that just because a car is financed or leased doesn't mean you should be willing to buy a car thats more expensive than one you'd pay in cash up front.

And since you already have a TL, I don't think the new 2012 TL will give you that much more excitement/safety/utility to justify the 30k cost increase.

Spend the money on things that matter more & will not depreciate as quickly -- like a house (or furniture), an investment account for your kid (if you have their potential college expenses paid early, it'll save you headache down the road), retirement savings, etc.

Originally Posted by acurator99

Dude to sum it all as I mentioned earlier; What's the point of spending money which you do not have; trying to buy things you do not need; to impress people you do not care about?
I have seen a lot of people making even 300K+ a year still broke and without great credit scores. Its all due to out of control spending, no savings and a massive ego.
Lets face the truth; if you had savings and could pay cash for the car, you wouldn't worry about financing.
What do you have to show for your 6 figure income?

Originally Posted by a32tl

I'm glad to see that you've decided to keep the '07 a while longer. For someone your age, you make an impressive salary but with seemingly little financial knowledge it could spell big trouble ahead. I honestly don't mean this to sound belittling but if you were to spend a few months or a year educating yourself financially, the answer to the question you pose would be a no-brainer.

You've obviously got some smarts to possess the job you have and to be pulling in a more than decent salary for someone your age. I have no doubt that you are capable of improving your financial literacy. At 25, the decisions you make now will pave the way for your financial soundness. "Play now, pay later. Pay now and play for the rest of your life". There are tons of valuable resources available to help you. Be wise and take advantage of them now and learn as much as you can in your 20s. In 10 short years from now, you will be one happy camper. Good luck to you and be proud you have an '07TLS. Don't give the '12 a second thought for now.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Originally Posted by kingmiller82

Thanks Dude, I appreciate it, I am 28 now though but yea, I lack in some areas and excel in others, I still go to my father for financial advice, it's something that I am 10x's better at than at the age of 18, but being a spoiled brat with one brother and one sister growing up it didn't help me much either. Out of the three of us though I was the more Independent one by far, education is endless, and I am still on my ways to advance my knowledge, that's why I explore a bit like getting advice from you guys and gals here on acurazine. I know my parents will never steer me in the wrong directions, but hearing it from a few others is always great you know!!

Thanks Again.

Originally Posted by KES

My 2 cents. Take it as fatherly advice and from someone who is perhaps ultra conservative with my spending (I drive my cars 10+ years / 150K+ in miles and paid cash for my last 3 vehicles).

The 2007 is still has plenty of miles left in it. Pay it off. Save some $$ and in a few years get a new vehicle when you need it. Based on your age 28 and what you wrote (credit score) while you may want a new vehicle it seems that it will be a struggle to pay for.

But if you decide to get the new TL it appears you need to shop it around at other dealers as this deal is good for the dealer and not so good for you.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by Moneyman2011

I am a Private Wealth Advisor and Managing Director of a financial firm in New York City on Madison Avenue. I can assure you that I have seen all kinds of situations my clients have put themselves in that has caused destruction for years to come as well as many years prior to my meeting them. Money is a very difficult thing to manage and there are very few courses on the subject at any academic level. I have clients who are business owners, people in the entertainment world, lawyers, doctors, scientists, and the worst are lottery winners. I can count on one hand over 18 years the number of clients I feel manage their own finances as well as I do. Yes I am tooting my own horn, but I should. I have an 837 FICO, zero debt with the exception of my new TL (yes my seven figure house is paid for), a very sizable investment portfolio and a very careful handle on managing my expenditures. My wife still clips coupons and buys everything on sale or she does not make a purchase.

The key to financial success is just two simple things but they are the hardest for people to put in action: Spend less than you take home, and save at least 50% of the difference. In other words, say you make $100,000 and you live in Texas, your personal take home income could be $80,000 since there is no personal state income tax. Assuming you are not contributing to your IRA and you are not a business owner, your monthly income after tax could be around $6,600. If you are paying $800-$900 per month for a car, that is just silly. The car you should be buying should cost you no more than $500 per month (7.5% of your net income) and you should not put more than 33% down as the worst use of your money is buying a car, unless you are buying a rare exotic that will hold its value or even increase in some markets. So the cost of the car you should be buying should be no more than $41,000 (deal price before sales tax), assuming you are putting down about $13,500, thus you would be financing $30,000 assuming zero percent rate. If you had a 4.9% rate, then you could only buy a $36,000 car when putting $11,800 down. Assuming you could not put any money down, you should only buy a car that costs $25,000 with a 4.9% 60 month interest rate.

I have a client who makes $1,100,000 in income per year and is living check to check if you can believe that! I have been working with him for more than 6 months to restructure his life and get him back on earth. He is selling his house, selling his 12 Rolex and Breitling watches, stopping his $300 lunches, getting rid of his beach house, turning in his leases on his Porsche, Land Rover, Lexus and SL65AMG. He is going to buy a used Honda Civic to drive to the train as that is all he does every day. We are changing everything and his wife is completely on-board or it would never fly. She is giving up her gym membership, her uncontrolled spending habits and they are even cancelling their country club membership. They were concerned about what their friends would think, and I said the following: “they are likely struggling just as much as you and they don’t want you to know about it either. When you tell them you are restructuring your lives, if they don’t want to be friends with you as a result, they were never your friends in the first place.” The net result of everything for this couple is that they will be able to live in a very comfortable home (not the current one which is $8,000,000), but likely about $1,000,000, they will start saving for their retirement which they have done nothing and they are 48 years old, and finally they will join the rest of us on the 3rd rock. The biggest thing is they will avoid bankruptcy as they are two months away from that horrible experience.

Here is my recommendation without knowing anything else about your personal financial situation: keep the car you have until it is paid off, save $12,000 for a down payment, and then get a new TL at that time. You have many years of good experiences with your current car yet to come, so keep it, save for your future and buy another car down the road. I know I am sounding like a dad, but I am one and I'm not yours.

Originally Posted by Rocketsfan

I agree with "dad" above.

My first car, a 1988 Toyota Camry, I drove for 130k miles but finally had to get rid of it after 8-9 years and 3 wrecks. lol.

My second car, a 1997 Nissan Maxima, I sold with around 128k on the odo despite the fact the only thing that went wrong with the car outside of warranty was a starter dying around 120+k miles. Like an idiot, I got "bored" with the car and sold it. It probably could've gone for another 30-40k miles easily.

My third and most recent car is my 2004 Acura TL. I had a power steering pump replaced around 80k under warranty. The only other major repair on the car was 2 engine mounts needed to be replaced for around $800 around 120k miles. The thing is still running fine at 165,000 miles (albeit with a couple of lights going out on the inside. lol).

If you don't need a new car, don't buy it. Get ahead in life instead of always trying to figure out a way to get another payment. I only pay cash for my cars and could buy a TL now if I wanted to, but I've learned my lesson - don't buy it unless you really have squeezed the last bit of juice out of the car you already have.

Sincerely,

Your 40 year old big brother who is probably going to wait for the 5G TL to see how it looks or buy a damn Prius. But only if his 3G starts causing problems.

Originally Posted by KES

My 2 cents. Take it as fatherly advice and from someone who is perhaps ultra conservative with my spending (I drive my cars 10+ years / 150K+ in miles and paid cash for my last 3 vehicles).

The 2007 is still has plenty of miles left in it. Pay it off. Save some $$ and in a few years get a new vehicle when you need it. Based on your age 28 and what you wrote (credit score) while you may want a new vehicle it seems that it will be a struggle to pay for.

But if you decide to get the new TL it appears you need to shop it around at other dealers as this deal is good for the dealer and not so good for you.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by kingmiller82

.... This same dealership back in March/April of 2007 took my trade in for a 2003 tl type s.....

Originally Posted by Moneyman2011