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Is Acura same class with Infiniti, Lexus, Audi?

 
Old 11-09-2010, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
I could say exactly the same thing about Audi service.....anything but "premium" (well, just the price)
Have you experienced Audi service? I've had many Audis. Maybe it was just the dealership, but I always got very fast friendly almost concierge-like service, the car was thoroughly washed, another car (usually an Audi) was provided, etc. The Acura service consisted of waiting (briefly) in line, no car wash, not as friendly pick-up, not as much personal care.

(And, to boot, my Audis were every bit as reliable as my Acura, though I realize that's not the case for everyone.)

Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
As general observation I have to say that is becoming increasingly difficult to differentiate luxury or premium cars from mainstream vehicles (for any brand)...
...But all of that it doesn't mean that your average 3 series with fake leather or an A4 is somewhat more "prestigious" than your Acura TL ....
...many Audi models are luxury VW.....
Very true. This confounds some posters here. But the feature-list doesn't give you the finish-quality. Supporting AC (as you mention) doesn't tell you if it has individual climate controls or if the passenger's seat heater does the back too. Having an iPod supporting audio system doesn't tell you whether you can quickly search through large numbers of artists. Having Nav doesn't tell you whether the nav system can use addresses from your phone. Having a sunroof doesn't tell you whether it's quiet when open. In each case, the Audi A4 is Yes, the Acura TL is No. That's what makes the perception difference. (And the fact that there are no Audis designed by VW or built on VW lines, while your TL was designed at Honda's design center, is built on the same factory line as the Accord, and is labelled with a company, "Acura", whose HQ is a disused janitorial closet at the same address as Honda Motor Co.s US HQ. )

Seriously, the TL being a HondAcura while the A4 is really an Audi, isn't what causes the perception or experience gap. Nobody cares that Cadillac and Saturn were essentially the same company rather than merely corporate cousins under a holding group. And the TL really is a great car - it's very sports-car-like in a large well-appointed sedan. But consider:

BWM isn't in the same class as Porsche.

Is Porsche more luxurious? Nope. It's just a different class.

The TL sort-of created a new class. It's as much Charger R/T as it is Audi A4. The A4 isn't a high-powered car. (The S4 is, but that costs much more.) The TL and the Charger R/T are. The TL and Charger are closer to the same size. But you don't compare the TL to the Charger - so just go with it being a new niche.
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Old 11-09-2010, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TechnoCat View Post
The Acura service consisted of waiting (briefly) in line, no car wash, not as friendly pick-up, not as much personal care.
Evidently you hit a bad Acura dealer.....The Acura dealers in my area, for example, provide you always an Acura loaner and they try to give you a vehicle at least in the same class (that means if you leave a TL they try to give you at minimum a TL) and they always wash your car inside and out


Very true. This confounds some posters here. But the feature-list doesn't give you the finish-quality. Supporting AC (as you mention) doesn't tell you if it has individual climate controls or if the passenger's seat heater does the back too. Having an iPod supporting audio system doesn't tell you whether you can quickly search through large numbers of artists. Having Nav doesn't tell you whether the nav system can use addresses from your phone. Having a sunroof doesn't tell you whether it's quiet when open.
Again....it's becoming more and more difficult to differentiate and premium brands have to introduce additional features with increasingly diminishing value gap......not having climate control if much worse as luxury-value perception than not having dual zone climate control.....and nothing new there....some old Alfas of the 70's had dual climate control...many brands are recycling old ideas like the swiveling headlight (introduced by Citroen on the DS in the 60s!!) or the BMW head-up display sold to ignorant customers as top technology when instead was introduced in some GM cars in the early 90s!!!


By the way, dual climate control is pretty much standard everywhere....

If you put feature per feature technology equipment of the TL with tech package with a full optional A4 side by side the Acura comes out ahead (for example climate control GPS linked)


That's what makes the perception difference. (And the fact that there are no Audis designed by VW or built on VW lines, while your TL was designed at Honda's design center, is built on the same factory line as the Accord, and is labelled with a company, "Acura", whose HQ is a disused janitorial closet at the same address as Honda Motor Co.s US HQ. )
I have news for you....there is an assembly plant in India (Aurangabad) that produces A4s, Passats, and others....as well as another Audi-VW joint assembly plant in China (Changchun).and, however, where the car is assembled has really nothing to do with the sharing of engines and platform...that is a typical (futile) attempt to find "differentiating value" from the German car proponents that know very well they cannot compete on value..period.

People eventually vote with their dollars....Acura solidly outsells Audi with a much smaller lineup (YTD October 2010)....the TL sells as much as the A4 and the TSX (with only 2 trims and no AWD!!!) almost as much (couple of thousands of units of difference).

I had an incredible deal offered by a broker where I could get an S4 for a little bit more than my TL SH-AWD and I still went for the Acura....

But the feature-list doesn't give you the finish-quality.
Ahh the biggest mass delusion in the car world....the supposedly superior Audi finishing....nonsense....the TL is assembled as well and the interiors feels much more rich...yes Audi sprinkle some real alluminum trim here and there (again pulling wool over your eyes...Germans are masters at it), then I only need to look at the ugly net behind the seats, the antiquated dashboard style. the ugly as hell instrukment cluster (look like a sad Raccoon )


the TL being a HondAcura while the A4 is really an Audi
Again another nonsensical line...an Acura is an Honda corporation product as much as an Audi is a VW....I know it hurts but that's it.....Audi fans hate it when they hear it from BMW and MB lovers but it is reality.....deal with it....personally I do not care the less about the badge on my hood as long as it is a great car.....but this is the obsession with German cars fan base...if makes you happy, buy a brand...

The TL sort-of created a new class. It's as much Charger R/T as it is Audi A4. The A4 isn't a high-powered car. (The S4 is, but that costs much more.) The TL and the Charger R/T are. The TL and Charger are closer to the same size. But you don't compare the TL to the Charger - so just go with it being a new niche.

The comparison between a Charger and a TL is ridiculous... the former is an appealing (for some) mix of very old technology and other manufacturers leftovers (the 3 generations ago Mercedes E class platform and suspension) with seriously subpar assembly and finishing sold at competitive prices.

Last edited by saturno_v; 11-09-2010 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 11-09-2010, 03:59 PM
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Well stated opposing argument Saturno. I don't think it's really a matter of right or wrong here but clearly we can see the different points of view and just how perception can manipulate how one can think and feel about something in both cases.

When it comes to the service debate, I don't think there is such a thing as Acura service or Audi service, it's way more independent than that. It really comes down to the individual dealer, expect for maybe Lexus. In my area several Audi dealers are also joint with VW (or vice versa) but I have only seen Honda and Acura side by side not in the same building and the service in this particular Audi dealer is up to only mainstream standards, if that, while the Honda dealer on the other side of town is nearly up to the service standards of a few BMW dealers in the area.

I don't take that as this brand having this kind of service or that brand having that. It depends which dealer you go to and sometimes how the area surrounding it is. Again it's perception but at the same time we know we can't make sweeping generalizations from such a small sample size. The reality probably has more to do with the volume of dealers where I would suspect Acura outweighs Audi and that makes a case for one being able to better find a superior servicing dealer but won't necessarily prove true in all cases.

Very true. This confounds some posters here. But the feature-list doesn't give you the finish-quality. Supporting AC (as you mention) doesn't tell you if it has individual climate controls or if the passenger's seat heater does the back too. Having an iPod supporting audio system doesn't tell you whether you can quickly search through large numbers of artists. Having Nav doesn't tell you whether the nav system can use addresses from your phone. Having a sunroof doesn't tell you whether it's quiet when open.
Technocat regularly points out where he feels the S4 is superior to the TL and where the TL's deficiencies lie in terms of luxury and finished quality and there is absolutely some truth to it but we never hear the other side of the discussion.

It is true that these things are available on the A4 for the same price points as the TL but again the A/S4 can lack just as much in details, finishes, quality, luxury, or whatever when compared to the TL, as impossible as that may seem to be for some, depending on how far the comparisons are taken and then how it is presented.

The Audi lacks a sliding cup holder cover, has netted back seats and plastic instead of leather or leather material, uses cheaper seat base plastics, lacks a full tire pressure monitor, smaller seating surfaces, no Zagat incorporation and that's before geting into the really subjective stuff. We can back and forth all day as there are more of these areas that can be dissected and more differences to point out and that does not even include other areas of vehicles either.

But these "touches" or areas don't seem to make a case for anything being more luxurious or better finished IMO, certainly doesn't warrant another league or class of distinction as they seem to trade off in most areas with both show varying points of finishing quality emphasis.

Even to give the benefit of the doubt, the A4 sacrifices in several other key areas to maybe excel in a few of these compared to the TL while the S4 costs $15k more to not have to make performance sacrifices while gaining only a few touches, a few features and a marginal level of performance in a smaller package. That has more to do with value though and less to do with luxury but it all ties together.

Last edited by winstrolvtec; 11-09-2010 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:43 PM
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No amount of information or personal experience is going to change that cat's mind. S/he has chosen the Audi as a primary vehicle and has significant sunk costs (skin in the game). When challenged s/he will naturally become defensive as s/he feels his/her reputation or “face” is at risk and s/he has become even more attached to his/her decision to buy the Audi. So much so, that s/he continues to post here on AZ, even thought there is a great Audi forum with plenty of people that are happy with the brand and AW would we be a better place for cat to occupy his/her time.

As for the S-4… At a premium price of $46-54,000, the S-4 is just too expensive. There has to be a point where the car is "reasonably priced" for its features and quality. And...With the average median home price (on the west coast) of $215,000, that premium price makes the S-4 worth 1/4 of the cost of the homes we live in. My personal dept-to-income ratio would not permit the purchase of a $50,000 car. Notwithstanding the TL.

Last edited by Mr Marco; 11-09-2010 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:32 PM
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The Audi lacks a sliding cup holder cover, has netted back seats and plastic instead of leather or leather material, uses cheaper seat base plastics, lacks a full tire pressure monitor, smaller seating surfaces, no Zagat incorporation and that's before geting into the really subjective stuff. We can back and forth all day as there are more of these areas that can be dissected and more differences to point out and that does not even include other areas of vehicles either.
What about the simle fact that the TL is significantly bigger than the A4 and in terms of size it should compete with the A6, a much more expensive vehicle???

Technocat has not even tried to shell out his/her immaginary superiority of the Audi finishing with me...I did look very carefully at the A4 before buying the TL...the value proposition was simply not there.....there are really no arguments to be made....
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:41 PM
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There seems to be a lot of emphasis on "finish quality" here by some. Finish quality suggests, among other things, reliability and safety.

There are also some, including certain individuals who write for car magazines, who place importance on the sound the car door makes when shutting. What a wonderful measure of safety and reliability.
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:54 PM
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On the subject of service...I can't even recall the last time I felt a dealer was 'bad' or provided poor service, after decades of car ownership. For it to happen with my first Acura was certainly unexpected and disappointing. While we can say each dealer is independent...Acura client services was pretty useless as well. I ended up getting the attention I needed and the improvement in service purely through my own efforts of tracking down the dealership's parent company and speaking with a high level exec. ACS could not even provide me with the right contact name and number at the parent company. Had to search it myself on google...and it took a while to find it.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by winstrolvtec View Post
The Audi lacks a sliding cup holder cover, has netted back seats and plastic instead of leather or leather material, uses cheaper seat base plastics, lacks a full tire pressure monitor, smaller seating surfaces, no Zagat incorporation and that's before geting into the really subjective stuff. We can back and forth all day as there are more of these areas that can be dissected and more differences to point out and that does not even include other areas of vehicles either.
Interesting. Yes. It (the S4, at any rate) lacks a sliding cup holder, but that's because the arm rest can be moved for and aft, unlike the TL's - essentially completely over where the cup holder is if you wish. I consider that more of a win for the S4 than the TL.

And true that the tire pressure monitor doesn't provide actual pressure readings, but rather is differential based. I guess you could view that as a negative, if you want to view the actual pressure rather than just be warned. I changed to winter wheels and tires just recently - yes, separate wheels for winter - and was pleasantly surprised that it's so much less expensive. So is the Audi better for being higher-tech and not relying on expensive sensors, or is the Acura better for providing more data? From a luxury perspective, probably the Acura is better, since I think of luxury as more features rather than cost savings, but you tend to be on the other side of the equation.

I like the leather in the Audi, and the rear (net) seat pockets better. I hated the TL's solid-material pockets and had no idea that was considered "better". Definitely the Audi is smaller; a Porsche C4S is smaller still - size isn't luxury. On reflection, you're right that Zagat isn't there; I hadn't even noticed.

I've pointed out other superior luxury features of the TL before. For example, it has both iPod and aux input jacks, while on the Audi you have to choose. (On the flip side, the TL's iPod interface is lousy.) The TL has better-placed power sockets too.

One big problem with my comparisons, though, is that I'm comparing the TL SH-AWD (a $42K list car, currently selling for just under $37K) to an Audi S4 Prestige, about $15K more. Comparing the A4Q... which is a four-cylinder putt-putt-mobile... to the TL SH-AWD Tech is unfair because the A4 is less expensive and less powerful but (IMHO) more luxurious... while comparing the TL to an S4 that costs currently about 1/3 more is equally unfair to the TL. The TL SH-AWD really seemed focused on being a super-high-performance family sedan, rather than on being a luxury car, while the A4Q 2.0T is more of a sedate executive car (european term meaning, essentially, entry luxury.)

Originally Posted by Mr Marco View Post
No amount of information or personal experience is going to change that cat's mind. S/he has chosen the Audi as a primary vehicle and has significant sunk costs (skin in the game). When challenged s/he will naturally become defensive as s/he feels his/her reputation or “face” is at risk and s/he has become even more attached to his/her decision to buy the Audi.
Actually, this reflects more on you and Saturno than on me. Because I actually bought a 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT a bit less than a year ago... so I had a LOT of skin in that game... and had to accept that it wasn't the right car for me. I've overcome the skin, by virtue of losing it with the trade-in. You and Saturno still have marque-ego going though.

Not that pride in your choice is a bad thing, just that your argument reflects rather more on you guys than on someone who did have skin in the game... and gave it up anyhow.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TechnoCat View Post
Actually, this reflects more on you and Saturno than on me. Because I actually bought a 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT a bit less than a year ago... so I had a LOT of skin in that game... and had to accept that it wasn't the right car for me. I've overcome the skin, by virtue of losing it with the trade-in. You and Saturno still have marque-ego going though.

Not that pride in your choice is a bad thing, just that your argument reflects rather more on you guys than on someone who did have skin in the game... and gave it up anyhow.
I followed your path in reverse...went from Audi (two of them and higher range than the entry level A4) to Japanese brands (and now Acura), I had my reasons, you have yours.

I respect your choice...you like the A4, great, more power to you, I'm glad, to each his/her own.

What I do not accept is when you say that the A4 is a more luxurious car than the TL....it is not and you never made your case with compelling arguments...there is not such superior finishing and workmanship in the Audi..none, zilch...you prefer your A4, again, fine..just do not tell me that is a superior product because it is not...period.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:57 PM
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Definitely the Audi is smaller; a Porsche C4S is smaller still
The Carrera is basically an exotic sport car, the A4 is a sedan...nice try....however I do agree size is not luxury...

One big problem with my comparisons, though, is that I'm comparing the TL SH-AWD (a $42K list car, currently selling for just under $37K) to an Audi S4 Prestige, about $15K more. Comparing the A4Q... which is a four-cylinder putt-putt-mobile... to the TL SH-AWD Tech is unfair because the A4 is less expensive and less powerful but (IMHO) more luxurious... while comparing the TL to an S4 that costs currently about 1/3 more is equally unfair to the TL. The TL SH-AWD really seemed focused on being a super-high-performance family sedan, rather than on being a luxury car, while the A4Q 2.0T is more of a sedate executive car (european term meaning, essentially, entry luxury.)
The comparison between the A4 2.0 T and the TL is more adequate given the vicinity in the price range and with the TL being as every bit "more car" than the A4 considering the price difference...however you are right...actually Acura dealers comparative sheet for the Acura TL SH-AWD is the BMW 535i and 535i xDrive...so yes, the A4 is not even on the same TL league......

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Old 11-09-2010, 11:33 PM
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Interesting. Yes. It (the S4, at any rate) lacks a sliding cup holder, but that's because the arm rest can be moved for and aft, unlike the TL's - essentially completely over where the cup holder is if you wish. I consider that more of a win for the S4 than the TL.

And true that the tire pressure monitor doesn't provide actual pressure readings, but rather is differential based. I guess you could view that as a negative, if you want to view the actual pressure rather than just be warned. I changed to winter wheels and tires just recently - yes, separate wheels for winter - and was pleasantly surprised that it's so much less expensive. So is the Audi better for being higher-tech and not relying on expensive sensors, or is the Acura better for providing more data? From a luxury perspective, probably the Acura is better, since I think of luxury as more features rather than cost savings, but you tend to be on the other side of the equation.

I like the leather in the Audi, and the rear (net) seat pockets better. I hated the TL's solid-material pockets and had no idea that was considered "better". Definitely the Audi is smaller; a Porsche C4S is smaller still - size isn't luxury. On reflection, you're right that Zagat isn't there; I hadn't even noticed.

I've pointed out other superior luxury features of the TL before. For example, it has both iPod and aux input jacks, while on the Audi you have to choose. (On the flip side, the TL's iPod interface is lousy.) The TL has better-placed power sockets too.

One big problem with my comparisons, though, is that I'm comparing the TL SH-AWD (a $42K list car, currently selling for just under $37K) to an Audi S4 Prestige, about $15K more. Comparing the A4Q... which is a four-cylinder putt-putt-mobile... to the TL SH-AWD Tech is unfair because the A4 is less expensive and less powerful but (IMHO) more luxurious... while comparing the TL to an S4 that costs currently about 1/3 more is equally unfair to the TL. The TL SH-AWD really seemed focused on being a super-high-performance family sedan, rather than on being a luxury car, while the A4Q 2.0T is more of a sedate executive car (european term meaning, essentially, entry luxury.)
The point is not about winning and losing because we can argue those points all day and most of it becomes subjective. The thing is the double standard that I hope you notice you hold one to but not the other.

I bring up areas for how the TL is more luxurious by your definition, the same one you use against the TL in favor of the A/S4 and you make excuses and turn that into how it is actually a positive luxury attribute instead and while that may or may not be true, the idea or the point is that it's all in how you (one) perceive(s) it to be, yet you don't give the same type of positive consideration to the TL.

Others don't feel the same, some of which just made a purchase decision recently that included both of these cars and others who came from Audi as well. Look, you like what you like and someone else likes what they like so naturally you prefer that but I don't know if that gives anyone the right to say that what I like is so much more luxurious or better and that it is on another level.

That would be the same thing as me saying that where I feel the TL is more luxurious is exactly why it is on a higher luxury level compared to the A4, you have already attempted to dimiss that notion yet it's the same thing you do in the reverse but I don't actually believe that.

I just don't see how that objectively makes one more luxurious than the other especially when you yourself can even admit that the TL has it's share of superior areas of luxury as well. It's a lot of trading off as no two brands build the same car and where I come from that's called a wash. Afterall we are talking about the A4 and TL, not an A6 or 5 series and the TL, that would be different and while I would argue how much more luxurious they are, I wouldn't argue that they simply are more luxurious.

I don't see how the mentioned comparison is unfair to the A4 prestige as it has a higher sticker than a TL SH. That is the best dollar for dollar comparison you can do of a TL SH and A4 Q. And no I don't think more value equals more luxury but I do not concede to the idea that with better value comes less luxury, that perspective doesn't serve anyone any good. Where I do agree is that the TL is more of a family oriented super high performing sedan in comparison but I don't think it's necessarily any more or less luxurious but as long as you can keep that idea in the context of being your opinion, I don't think anybody minds.

Actually, this reflects more on you and Saturno than on me. Because I actually bought a 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT a bit less than a year ago... so I had a LOT of skin in that game... and had to accept that it wasn't the right car for me. I've overcome the skin, by virtue of losing it with the trade-in. You and Saturno still have marque-ego going though.

Not that pride in your choice is a bad thing, just that your argument reflects rather more on you guys than on someone who did have skin in the game... and gave it up anyhow.
Just because you have more skin in the game doesn't mean your opinions are any more accurate or unbiased. You have said several times that you have had at least a 15 years of consecutive experiences with Audi prior to the TL which didn't even last a year now back to audi, besides the S4 was the car you admitted to originally wanted anyway.

Similarly I have had 10 years with Acura but if I chose a brand that I was unfamilar with because the TL got too expensive, too big, or whatever the reason, and I happened to be disappointed, I think I would know how to differentiate between my personal biases and preferences with things that I have grown accustomed to with that of which is mostly new and different.

The person who has the right amount of skin in this game is the one who has owned or owns both without any kind of mistake in choice and who appreciates and enjoys both cars the same for what each brings to the table despite the different approaches and methods, be that, to luxury, value, or any other aspects of the vehicles.

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Old 11-10-2010, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by winstrolvtec View Post
The point is not about winning and losing because we can argue those points all day and most of it becomes subjective. The thing is the double standard that I hope you notice you hold one to but not the other.

I bring up areas for how the TL is more luxurious by your definition, the same one you use against the TL in favor of the A/S4 and you make excuses and turn that into how it is actually a positive luxury attribute instead and while that may or may not be true, the idea or the point is that it's all in how you (one) perceive(s) it to be, yet you don't give the same type of positive consideration to the TL.

Others don't feel the same, some of which just made a purchase decision recently that included both of these cars and others who came from Audi as well. Look, you like what you like and someone else likes what they like so naturally you prefer that but I don't know if that gives anyone the right to say that what I like is so much more luxurious or better and that it is on another level.

That would be the same thing as me saying that where I feel the TL is more luxurious is exactly why it is on a higher luxury level compared to the A4, you have already attempted to dimiss that notion yet it's the same thing you do in the reverse but I don't actually believe that.

I just don't see how that objectively makes one more luxurious than the other especially when you yourself can even admit that the TL has it's share of superior areas of luxury as well. It's a lot of trading off as no two brands build the same car and where I come from that's called a wash. Afterall we are talking about the A4 and TL, not an A6 or 5 series and the TL, that would be different and while I would argue how much more luxurious they are, I wouldn't argue that they simply are more luxurious.

I don't see how the mentioned comparison is unfair to the A4 prestige as it has a higher sticker than a TL SH. That is the best dollar for dollar comparison you can do of a TL SH and A4 Q. And no I don't think more value equals more luxury but I do not concede to the idea that with better value comes less luxury, that perspective doesn't serve anyone any good. Where I do agree is that the TL is more of a family oriented super high performing sedan in comparison but I don't think it's necessarily any more or less luxurious but as long as you can keep that idea in the context of being your opinion, I don't think anybody minds.



Just because you have more skin in the game doesn't mean your opinions are any more accurate or unbiased. You have said several times that you have had at least a 15 years of consecutive experiences with Audi prior to the TL which didn't even last a year now back to audi, besides the S4 was the car you admitted to originally wanted anyway.

Similarly I have had 10 years with Acura but if I chose a brand that I was unfamilar with because the TL got too expensive, too big, or whatever the reason, and I happened to be disappointed, I think I would know how to differentiate between my personal biases and preferences with things that I have grown accustomed to with that of which is mostly new and different.

The person who has the right amount of skin in this game is the one who has owned or owns both without any kind of mistake in choice and who appreciates and enjoys both cars the same for what each brings to the table despite the different approaches and methods, be that, to luxury, value, or any other aspects of the vehicles.
Never said that the TL is more luxurious...is simply bigger and then compete with can the A6 or a 5 Series as well (for size)

I just say that it is a better value proposition and assembled and finished as well if not better in some areas...period....and Acura outselling Audi significantly means that a lot of people agree with me and others on this forum.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:53 AM
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I think this is a perception issue. If you look at what you get for the dollar you get probaly more frm Acura and Infiniti in terms of quality and luxury features than you do in a comparable MB, Audi or BMW. The probem I think is that while Infiniti has done a good job or distinguishing themsleves as a luxury line Acura for some reason has struggled getting the same recognition. I also think Acura's more utilitarian interior designs hurt it more. I loved my AWD, the leather was top quality, the fit and finish and features all top tier, but the cluter of buttons and the plasticy control knob sure did detract form a "luxury" fell. Also I think Acura has not doen a good job of keeping up with the "Joneses" here. All the competitors are into 7 and 8 speed AT while Acura is just getting ready to release a 6 speed. Also You can get some extra bells and whistles in all the competitons, things like Blind Spot warning, laser cruise control, cooled seats. From a build perspective I would take Acura over any of them, but when you factor in the items I mentioned and then the 4G polarizing styling I think it set Acura back a tad.
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:44 AM
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You want to see a ranking of customer service and dealership experience by manufacturer, here it is. This is the nation avg of reporting by consumers but as you can see on avg Audi is ranked near the bottom of the pack in this regard! Audi did not rate great in any category surveyed. But as others said, stealerships are independently owned for the most part so it can vary by stealership.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...-/#page-anchor

Lexus and Cadillac are the best in these regards!
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Never said that the TL is more luxurious...is simply bigger and then compete with can the A6 or a 5 Series as well (for size)

I just say that it is a better value proposition and assembled and finished as well if not better in some areas...period....and Acura outselling Audi significantly means that a lot of people agree with me and others on this forum.
Luckily Acura has that still going for them or they'd really be a in a shit hole! Hopefully toning down the grill on the TL next year will help. Here is to hoping the next gen Acura's will get rid of the shield grill or at least implement it in a much more luxurious/better way then they are now.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:36 AM
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The argument for size doesn't work. The Saab 9-7 is now as long as a S-class nearly. That doesn't make it S-class competition. The Lincoln MKS is as big as a S-class, that doesn't make it S-class competition.

People need to be happy with what they bought and stop justifying things and making it seem like they are something it is not which is what the CEO just stated. Nothing wrong with "smart" luxury whatever that it is. It just isn't genuine luxury which is what most people want.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TechnoCat View Post
Interesting. Yes. It (the S4, at any rate) lacks a sliding cup holder, but that's because the arm rest can be moved for and aft, unlike the TL's - essentially completely over where the cup holder is if you wish. I consider that more of a win for the S4 than the TL.

And true that the tire pressure monitor doesn't provide actual pressure readings, but rather is differential based. I guess you could view that as a negative, if you want to view the actual pressure rather than just be warned. I changed to winter wheels and tires just recently - yes, separate wheels for winter - and was pleasantly surprised that it's so much less expensive. So is the Audi better for being higher-tech and not relying on expensive sensors, or is the Acura better for providing more data? From a luxury perspective, probably the Acura is better, since I think of luxury as more features rather than cost savings, but you tend to be on the other side of the equation.

I like the leather in the Audi, and the rear (net) seat pockets better. I hated the TL's solid-material pockets and had no idea that was considered "better". Definitely the Audi is smaller; a Porsche C4S is smaller still - size isn't luxury. On reflection, you're right that Zagat isn't there; I hadn't even noticed.

I've pointed out other superior luxury features of the TL before. For example, it has both iPod and aux input jacks, while on the Audi you have to choose. (On the flip side, the TL's iPod interface is lousy.) The TL has better-placed power sockets too.

One big problem with my comparisons, though, is that I'm comparing the TL SH-AWD (a $42K list car, currently selling for just under $37K) to an Audi S4 Prestige, about $15K more. Comparing the A4Q... which is a four-cylinder putt-putt-mobile... to the TL SH-AWD Tech is unfair because the A4 is less expensive and less powerful but (IMHO) more luxurious... while comparing the TL to an S4 that costs currently about 1/3 more is equally unfair to the TL. The TL SH-AWD really seemed focused on being a super-high-performance family sedan, rather than on being a luxury car, while the A4Q 2.0T is more of a sedate executive car (european term meaning, essentially, entry luxury.)


Actually, this reflects more on you and Saturno than on me. Because I actually bought a 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT a bit less than a year ago... so I had a LOT of skin in that game... and had to accept that it wasn't the right car for me. I've overcome the skin, by virtue of losing it with the trade-in. You and Saturno still have marque-ego going though.

Not that pride in your choice is a bad thing, just that your argument reflects rather more on you guys than on someone who did have skin in the game... and gave it up anyhow.
I have a huge ego! The difference between you and I is I admit it.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by LessisBestmakingendsmeet View Post
The argument for size doesn't work. The Saab 9-7 is now as long as a S-class nearly. .
True that is an extreme case...even the Accord is as big as a 5 Series but it cannot be compared.

However, the TL does compare well with entry level/middle of the pack 5 Series (the 535i for example) and A6, not only because of size similarities...
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TechnoCat View Post
Have you experienced Audi service? I've had many Audis. Maybe it was just the dealership, but I always got very fast friendly almost concierge-like service, the car was thoroughly washed, another car (usually an Audi) was provided, etc. The Acura service consisted of waiting (briefly) in line, no car wash, not as friendly pick-up, not as much personal care.

(And, to boot, my Audis were every bit as reliable as my Acura, though I realize that's not the case for everyone.)

Very true. This confounds some posters here. But the feature-list doesn't give you the finish-quality. Supporting AC (as you mention) doesn't tell you if it has individual climate controls or if the passenger's seat heater does the back too. Having an iPod supporting audio system doesn't tell you whether you can quickly search through large numbers of artists. Having Nav doesn't tell you whether the nav system can use addresses from your phone. Having a sunroof doesn't tell you whether it's quiet when open. In each case, the Audi A4 is Yes, the Acura TL is No. That's what makes the perception difference. (And the fact that there are no Audis designed by VW or built on VW lines, while your TL was designed at Honda's design center, is built on the same factory line as the Accord, and is labelled with a company, "Acura", whose HQ is a disused janitorial closet at the same address as Honda Motor Co.s US HQ. )

Seriously, the TL being a HondAcura while the A4 is really an Audi, isn't what causes the perception or experience gap. Nobody cares that Cadillac and Saturn were essentially the same company rather than merely corporate cousins under a holding group. And the TL really is a great car - it's very sports-car-like in a large well-appointed sedan. But consider:

BWM isn't in the same class as Porsche.

Is Porsche more luxurious? Nope. It's just a different class.

The TL sort-of created a new class. It's as much Charger R/T as it is Audi A4. The A4 isn't a high-powered car. (The S4 is, but that costs much more.) The TL and the Charger R/T are. The TL and Charger are closer to the same size. But you don't compare the TL to the Charger - so just go with it being a new niche.

Technokitty must be in Cali smoking Schwarzenegger laced catnip. A TL is like a Charger R/T, but then it says you don't compare, but then it says...oh hell, it's the sezz fo' sho' playa. I know we are but mere mortals compared to a demi-god from Ass-gard! But whoa, I'm getting the Freebreeze...if I don't I'll get a contact from this post and end up end up get a piss test next week....whew.
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Marco View Post
I have a huge ego! The difference between you and I is I admit it.

LMFAO! At least someone's keeping it real. The other is a Dave Chappelle, "When keeping it real goes wrong." LMFAO!
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaChaCharles View Post
Just ordered an A5 Prestige last month (won't be built until Jan). Milano leather is NOT standard. It is $1000 upgrade.
Sorry, and thanks for the correction. I am from Canada and assumed the same would be in the USA. I see in the USA they have various other features on other models too....(Congrats on the purchase BTW).

Here in Canada Nappa leather is generally the optional choice. A Audi Canada rep this summer advised me that it isnt listed on the internet or in written material but if you want a true 100% Milano interior you can order it but its only on their ordering guides. This is because the standard leather is a Milano leather but processed slightly different to be more durable and less of it is used in the interior compared to the full Milano or Nappa package etc. I shouldnt of assumed it was the same in the USA.

All i was trying to point out to another member is that Audi uses real leather being he didnt really know much about the brands history either.

Originally Posted by JM2010 SH-AWD View Post
You gotta love these kinds of statements. Audi owners can keep saying that to themselves when their water pump on a brand new S4 craps out. Now that's the kind of luxury Acura can only aspire to.
To each there own but I would sooner have my car in the shop for a day or two because of a water or fuel pump rather than having it in the shop for weeks or months on end because of squeeks and rattles that cant be fixed or speakers blowing on a regular basis etc etc etc......Sorry but this doesnt scream Luxury to me. I know many here think reliability is the main part of luxury but if thats so then many here must think a Honda Civic must be way more luxurious than a Maybach etc

The last thing I want is my interior gutted because of poor build quality where welds have broken or need to be re-welded in the A-frame, sunroof or rear deck in order to stop the rattles and squeeks. Anyone knows that when this happens your car will never be the same again.

Originally Posted by jasonwdp10 View Post
Clear as crystal. Lets see how people on the forum take it.

To me, "Smart Premium" = luxury hondas. Always have been always will be, and that's exactly why I buy acuras. I don't think of it as any more and I don't want it to be.
Originally Posted by LessisBestmakingendsmeet View Post
People need to be happy with what they bought and stop justifying things and making it seem like they are something it is not which is what the CEO just stated. Nothing wrong with "smart" luxury whatever that it is. It just isn't genuine luxury which is what most people want.
Well said by the both of you.

Many here including myself like and appreciate Acura for what they are and what they provide. That is a nicely equippted vehicle that competes very well against premium models in the mainstream brands like VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc etc.

When the majority of the automotive industry, consumers and more importantly Acura/Honda management admit that they arent at the same Level as the tier 1 brands there is really nothing to debate. I understand that this is a Acura Enthusiast site but some people need to be more realistic when they try comparing a TL to a 535i etc. Do you honestly believe that if the Acura was truly 100% comparable in all areas and still $20k less, that Acura wouldnt be a worldwide brand and dominating the luxury market worldwide and BMW, Audi etc would be out of buisness...
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TechnoCat View Post
One big problem with my comparisons, though, is that I'm comparing the TL SH-AWD (a $42K list car, currently selling for just under $37K) to an Audi S4 Prestige, about $15K more. Comparing the A4Q... which is a four-cylinder putt-putt-mobile... to the TL SH-AWD Tech is unfair because the A4 is less expensive and less powerful but (IMHO) more luxurious... while comparing the TL to an S4 that costs currently about 1/3 more is equally unfair to the TL. The TL SH-AWD really seemed focused on being a super-high-performance family sedan, rather than on being a luxury car, while the A4Q 2.0T is more of a sedate executive car (european term meaning, essentially, entry luxury.)
I know your not a big fan of four cylinder engines techno but not comparing the two because of this isnt really fair.

Many comparo's have been done between the TL SH-AWD 5AT and the A4Q. Also a recent comparo was done with TSX V-6 and the VW CC 2.0T and despite the huge advantage on Engine numbers for Acura both the VW/Audi's with their much smaller engines performed equally or in some cases better than the Acura's with Acura obviously having a advantage on top end power (100-120+ Mph)..........and on a luxury side note the CC was deemed to be more luxurious than the TSX and the TL basically on par with the CC.
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:50 PM
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BIAS for the lose...
Who cares, if its gots nice leather and nifty features for my american ass, its luxury to me.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cp3117 View Post
Many here including myself like and appreciate Acura for what they are and what they provide. That is a nicely equippted vehicle that competes very well against premium models in the mainstream brands like VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc etc.
This is probably one of the more ridiculous statements I've read on here in a while. First off, Infiniti isn't a mainstream brand, and with the exception of say the new Maxima, I rarely has seen or read any comparison tests or statements of Acura models competing with mainstream company products or even cross shopped by people.

I've seen them cross shopped, compared, and competing with the other Japanese, American, and German luxury companies. So I think your statement is just a way of demeaning Acura further.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cp3117 View Post
Sorry, and thanks for the correction. I am from Canada and assumed the same would be in the USA. I see in the USA they have various other features on other models too....(Congrats on the purchase BTW).

Here in Canada Nappa leather is generally the optional choice. A Audi Canada rep this summer advised me that it isnt listed on the internet or in written material but if you want a true 100% Milano interior you can order it but its only on their ordering guides. This is because the standard leather is a Milano leather but processed slightly different to be more durable and less of it is used in the interior compared to the full Milano or Nappa package etc. I shouldnt of assumed it was the same in the USA.

All i was trying to point out to another member is that Audi uses real leather being he didnt really know much about the brands history either.



To each there own but I would sooner have my car in the shop for a day or two because of a water or fuel pump rather than having it in the shop for weeks or months on end because of squeeks and rattles that cant be fixed or speakers blowing on a regular basis etc etc etc......Sorry but this doesnt scream Luxury to me. I know many here think reliability is the main part of luxury but if thats so then many here must think a Honda Civic must be way more luxurious than a Maybach etc

The last thing I want is my interior gutted because of poor build quality where welds have broken or need to be re-welded in the A-frame, sunroof or rear deck in order to stop the rattles and squeeks. Anyone knows that when this happens your car will never be the same again.





Well said by the both of you.

Many here including myself like and appreciate Acura for what they are and what they provide. That is a nicely equippted vehicle that competes very well against premium models in the mainstream brands like VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc etc.

When the majority of the automotive industry, consumers and more importantly Acura/Honda management admit that they arent at the same Level as the tier 1 brands there is really nothing to debate. I understand that this is a Acura Enthusiast site but some people need to be more realistic when they try comparing a TL to a 535i etc. Do you honestly believe that if the Acura was truly 100% comparable in all areas and still $20k less, that Acura wouldnt be a worldwide brand and dominating the luxury market worldwide and BMW, Audi etc would be out of buisness...
Step back and gain a little perspective. If you are on AZ, you are either a perfectionist “GearHead” like me, or you have had an issue with your car, Googled it, and found a bunch of perfectionist assholes like me that hear every little moan and groan in their car.

A good example of this comes from my personal experience with a Ford Taurus SHO. I owned a 3G SHO which had a critical flaw in the camshaft. Only about 5% of the cars had a cam failure, but if you were on <v8sho.com>, you would think that every 1997 SHO had a cam that failed (mine did not). In a real world statistical perspective, there were only .58% of Taurus owners who had an engine failure. Yes, less than 1% of Taurus owners had an issue with their engine within their warrantee period.

The moral of the story is that there are a lot of happy people driving around in their 1, 2, 3, and 4G TL’s. If you are not, sorry, I hope you will have a better experience in the future.

I have 3 HMoCo products in my garage right now! After owning 5 Honda, 3 Porsche, 2 Ford, 2 GM, 2 VW, 1 Volvo, 1 Saab, 1 Mazda, and 1 Fiat, I can honestly say I will never drive another brand.

Last edited by Mr Marco; 11-10-2010 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:37 PM
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I forgot, I have owned 7 Honda products including the HRC-216 Mower in the garage right now and a CB-750 Motorcycle. They all started on the first pull.
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:02 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by cp3117 View Post
That is a nicely equippted vehicle that competes very well against premium models in the mainstream brands like VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc etc.

When the majority of the automotive industry, consumers and more importantly Acura/Honda management admit that they arent at the same Level as the tier 1 brands there is really nothing to debate. I understand that this is a Acura Enthusiast site but some people need to be more realistic when they try comparing a TL to a 535i etc. Do you honestly believe that if the Acura was truly 100% comparable in all areas and still $20k less, that Acura wouldnt be a worldwide brand and dominating the luxury market worldwide and BMW, Audi etc would be out of buisness...
Eh?? I'm not sure I agree with those statements.

On top of my head, I quickly copy and paste 2 excerpts straight from Edmunds, which I believe is not an Acura enthusiast site, compares the TL to the Audi A4/S4, BMW 3 series/535xi, etc:


http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2010/review.html

Either TL model, however, is a competitive choice in the entry-level luxury sedan segment that also includes such luminaries such as the Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Cadillac CTS, Hyundai Genesis, Infiniti G37 and Mercedes-Benz C-Class.



http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2010/testdrive.html

If you're a fan of the styling, the TL SH-AWD 6MT definitely belongs at the top of your shopping list. After all, its performance is competitive with that of the BMW 535i xDrive, which runs $10,000-$15,000 more when comparably equipped. And the TL SH-AWD is bigger and more comfortable than the marginally better-performing but pricier Audi S4.

Though more conservatively styled, the above-mentioned BMW and Audi are the only truly comparable luxury performance sedans with manual transmissions and the year-round versatility of all-wheel drive. Even if you're not high on the TL's brave design language, you might still want to give this car a chance. As one of the best-driving luxury performance sedans under $60,000, the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT is proof that beauty is more than skin deep.

Last edited by docboy; 11-10-2010 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by docboy View Post
Eh?? I'm not sure I agree with those statements.

On top of my head, I quickly copy and paste 2 excerpts straight from Edmunds, which I believe is not an Acura enthusiast site, compares the TL to the Audi A4/S4, BMW 3 series/535xi, etc:


http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2010/review.html

Either TL model, however, is a competitive choice in the entry-level luxury sedan segment that also includes such luminaries such as the Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Cadillac CTS, Hyundai Genesis, Infiniti G37 and Mercedes-Benz C-Class.



http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2010/testdrive.html

If you're a fan of the styling, the TL SH-AWD 6MT definitely belongs at the top of your shopping list. After all, its performance is competitive with that of the BMW 535i xDrive, which runs $10,000-$15,000 more when comparably equipped. And the TL SH-AWD is bigger and more comfortable than the marginally better-performing but pricier Audi S4.

Though more conservatively styled, the above-mentioned BMW and Audi are the only truly comparable luxury performance sedans with manual transmissions and the year-round versatility of all-wheel drive. Even if you're not high on the TL's brave design language, you might still want to give this car a chance. As one of the best-driving luxury performance sedans under $60,000, the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT is proof that beauty is more than skin deep.

cp3117 is clearly confised or blinded by his/her Audi love

First of all, he/she doesn't know about the Audi brand history....I challenged him/her and nothing came out of it.

Second, I live in the United States and here the A4 spandard seats are not real leather...period...I do not care if in Canada they sell it in crocodile skin.

About comparing Acura to mainstream brands...it is so ridiculous there is real no need to comment further......and I have no problem choosing a "mainstream" model over a premium model if I like the car...I would take an Accord FWD or a Maxima over an A4 or A6 Front Track any time of the day...

cp317...Acura outsold Audi significantly....just to let you know...people seem to like them..
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cp3117 View Post
I know your not a big fan of four cylinder engines techno but not comparing the two because of this isnt really fair.

Many comparo's have been done between the TL SH-AWD 5AT and the A4Q. Also a recent comparo was done with TSX V-6 and the VW CC 2.0T and despite the huge advantage on Engine numbers for Acura both the VW/Audi's with their much smaller engines performed equally or in some cases better than the Acura's with Acura obviously having a advantage on top end power (100-120+ Mph)..........and on a luxury side note the CC was deemed to be more luxurious than the TSX and the TL basically on par with the CC.
Um what? I get EVERY car magazine at my house; I just reread the C&D "Between A Rock & a Grand Place" and found not one single mention of the TL. If you could please clarify the page number and give the quote for the statement you have just made I would greatly appreciate it. As far as I’m concerned you have inaccurately represented an automotive magazine that has been in circulation since July 1955.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by OperationDarkie View Post
BIAS for the lose...
Who cares, if its gots nice leather and nifty features for my american ass, its luxury to me.
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Old 11-11-2010, 06:29 PM
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Never said that the TL is more luxurious...is simply bigger and then compete with can the A6 or a 5 Series as well (for size)

I just say that it is a better value proposition and assembled and finished as well if not better in some areas...period....and Acura outselling Audi significantly means that a lot of people agree with me and others on this forum.
True that is an extreme case...even the Accord is as big as a 5 Series but it cannot be compared.

However, the TL does compare well with entry level/middle of the pack 5 Series (the 535i for example) and A6, not only because of size similarities...
Just making sure you know my posts are not directed at you Saturno, as I agree with your position 100% and have defended the same one for over 2 years now. The problem is God forbid you mention the TL in the same sentence as the A6, 5 series, and other mid levels, for any given reason, even when it has with nothing to do with luxury and people come out of the woodwork to protest this idea that it is a complete competitor to those cars when no one here has ever made that case.

It seems folks just don't like the idea that the A/S4, 3 series, and C class are brand variants of the same type of vehicle and offer a very similar overall package with categorically similar offerings across the board, while the TL doesn't fit into that box and is different with much more unique offerings, being based off of Acura's mid level RL, which allows the TL to not resemble much of anything else in the marketplace. Some individuals either have interpretation problems or it's them that are really trying to justify something against the TL, maybe the styling direction, what they drive or prefer instead, or simply not getting one, who knows?

It's pretty simple to see how the TL stacks up to those cars and how it doesn't if you actually look into all of them and consider cross shopping them or at least how someone would, I am not sure why that part of it is a discussion?

Many of our points are that there are some that shop the mid level segment and end up with a TL (mainly the SH) for various reasons, that does not mean it is the same on every level for $20k cheaper when comparably equipped. It is simply a good mid level alternative and is considered to have more mid level appeal than most entry cars do, particulary in the size and performance categories as well as both of them combined.

Perceived level of luxury is not the sole reason to buy a mid level sedan, other than the luxury and refinement the TL SH hits on every other aspect that makes a mid level a mid level and is often considered to excel in a few others like reliability, resale, and crash testing, when actually compared against much more expensive large mid sized, mid level, luxury sedans.

Naturally something has to be missing when a product is very similar and delivers on many of the same areas but is $20k less expensive but that doesn't mean the $20k more expensive mid levels are worth what is charged for them when cars like the CTS and TL officially receive mid level and tweener consideration for entry level money in the first place. Clearly something is missing there as well.

Regarding the original topic, Acura may not be considered Tier 1 luxury but that doesn't mean they should not be considered luxury or that the industry does not recognize them as so. Regarding the TL, it clearly is well qualified enough to fall under the term entry luxury when it is and has been gaining mid level consideration as well. These are facts or are as close as they are going to get surrounding subjective terms but people like to manipulate them when they don't agree, usually based only on their opinions.

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Old 11-11-2010, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cp3117 View Post
I know your not a big fan of four cylinder engines techno but not comparing the two because of this isnt really fair.
I've driving the 2.0T a few times as a loaner. The TL's 3.7 V6 blows it away. It's definitely a Honda - weak on the low end, a bit raspy, but winds up like nobody's business - but still amazing. The 2.0T is a bit the other way... has some torque (but much less than the 3.7 simply because it's got less power), but is refined. The S4 V6 3.0 Super is very refined and very fast, but perhaps a bit over-counter-balanced.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:47 AM
  #113  
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To each there own but I would sooner have my car in the shop for a day or two because of a water or fuel pump rather than having it in the shop for weeks or months on end because of squeeks and rattles that cant be fixed or speakers blowing on a regular basis etc etc etc......Sorry but this doesnt scream Luxury to me. I know many here think reliability is the main part of luxury but if thats so then many here must think a Honda Civic must be way more luxurious than a Maybach etc

The last thing I want is my interior gutted because of poor build quality where welds have broken or need to be re-welded in the A-frame, sunroof or rear deck in order to stop the rattles and squeeks. Anyone knows that when this happens your car will never be the same again.
No issue along either lines screams luxury, but here you are again making a one sided argument and naturally making the scenario out to be rather easy and harmless in comparison to Acura and the TL (as usual), when you can go ask a few BMW owners how they feel about their reocurring fuel pump issues. Some of you individuals want to come here as more pro another brand or brands than Acura and voice your thoughts and opinions, which that is fine, but if you make an argument against one side you have to consider that for the other as well and as equally.

It doesn't seem balanced to make a list of issues that pop up in the 4G TL's problems & fixes sub forum, without one for the other. Strangely, you spend time there to gather this material to post but don't seem interested in the car from a potential owners point of view which clearly raises flags. Regardless, most of the issues are from first year early builds anyway.

You also choose not to include any other Acura's only the TL which does not speak for the entire brand all by itself and there is a different production place and process for some models over others, yet no mention or consideration of that either and you are using relatively low sample sizes to try to establish what you maybe want to appear to be signifcant issues when they may only be flukes.

That only reveals some form of bias and/or anti sentiment, as anyone with a neutral or balanced stance would consider those issues for both sides because there are always concerns over there as well. They all have lemons, issues, and bugs, perhaps the idea is to see where the lower percentage of all that takes place and with qualified enough information to base it off of and not assumptions from forum threads, that's why we don't take you approach.

That's where your perception of how things appear to be come into play but the reality may be more reflected by another thread where many express our enjoyment and pleasure of the fact that we are rattle, quality, and reliabilty issue free instead, some on nearly one year, like myself, others on two.

And no, luxury does not have to have anything to do with reliability but outside of internet forums, people shop and compare cars on more levels than just luxury alone, and other areas automatically tie into luxury and it's perception.

When one's luxury commands a higher price over another's, their reliability should not take a step back or should probably at the least be considered average in the first place but that doesn't necessarily make it anymore or less luxurious but if they are a lot closer to each other than a Civic and a Maybach, where they are competitors in the same segment or segment range, it very well could and probably does in a lot of peoples' minds.

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Old 11-12-2010, 10:01 AM
  #114  
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I am fortunate to own a 2010 Infiniti G37 & 2010 Acurat TL SH-AWD. Before purchasing these two cars, i've driven the A4, BMW & Mercedes. The Acura & Infiniti have the same, if not more options than either the BMW A4 & MB. BMW interioir is dated, and boring. Sure is simple and easy to use, but in my opinion i need something that stands out. Long story short, to get an equally equiped A4, C350, 335I, or IS350 (which are direct competitors), your looking at atleast $6 - $10,000 more than the TL or Infiniti (canadian). So in a nutshell, i believe that Acura is recognized as a Luxury brand. They do it well for their price.

Now the real question is...........what makes a car "Luxury"?? Because all of the above mentioned cars have same features, leather seats, same type of Horsepower etc......why would Acura or any of the above brands not be Luxury cars??
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
There is nothing wrong with that.....the Accord is not technologically inferior in its engineering and design than an A4 or a 3 Series.....many Audi models are luxury VW.....
If by "many" you mean two (or threeish), then yes.

A3- fancy VW
A4- Audi platform
A5- Audi platform
A6- Audi platform
A7- Audi platform
A8- Audi platform
Q5- Audi platform
Q7- VW platform, but the Touareg is a luxury SUV anyway
TT- fancy VW
R8- Lamborghini base

Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
The comparison between a Charger and a TL is ridiculous... the former is an appealing (for some) mix of very old technology and other manufacturers leftovers (the 3 generations ago Mercedes E class platform and suspension) with seriously subpar assembly and finishing sold at competitive prices.
To be fair you have to say both have an apealing mix to "some" of different concepts. The TL is not selling nearly as well as its predecessors did so it's got its own set of issues.

Also, he might have meant the 2011 Charger, which is a huge improvement it seems compared to the 2006-2010. The interior has an actual design now and has all soft touch materials and more leather coverings, at least about as much leather as the TL has. Its aluminum dash is actually aluminum, it has lots of technology the TL doesn't offer, and its base V-6 is now more advantages than any of our Acuras' J engine. The platform was originally less than 20 percent Mercedes parts, and now it's even less. A lot of the media gives you the impression it's just a stretched old MB platform, which is completely false. Its structure is also extremely solid. I'd like to see which is more solid, the TL platform or the Charger platform. Quietness and ride also should be very competitive.

No, I'm not saying they're actually competitors. But actually you could compare some of the Charger models to the TL without being too silly, know what I mean? Some say that the domestic large cars are moving in the direction of entry luxury anyway while still offering a base cloth model or two. By that logic, maybe you actually could say that certain Chargers or Taurus are competitors to the TL. It's all opinion based.
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:04 PM
  #116  
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Wait, we're debating a topic by 4 internet noobs with out a post count higher than 40 (the OT)? Come on guys, save your mad debating skills for something worth while?!
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:59 PM
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If by "many" you mean two (or threeish), then yes.

A3- fancy VW
A4- Audi platform
A5- Audi platform
A6- Audi platform
A7- Audi platform
A8- Audi platform
Q5- Audi platform
Q7- VW platform, but the Touareg is a luxury SUV anyway
TT- fancy VW
R8- Lamborghini base


Let's correct that a little bit

A1 (not yet sold in the US) - VW platform
A3- fancy VW
A4- Audi platform (up to 2005 shared with the VW Passat and others) the current platform is shared with the SEAT Exeo (not sold in the US, sold in Europe, Latin America, South Africa and other low-middle income markets)

SEAT is a budget brand placed under VW in the marketplace.

A5- Audi platform
A6- Audi platform
A7- Audi platform
A8- Audi platform shared with the VW Phaeton
Q5- Audi platform
Q7- VW platform, but the Touareg is a not a luxury SUV anyway (we perfectly cross shopped years ago when we got my wife Tribeca)
TT- fancy VW
R8- Lamborghini base

Then you have case by case sharing of engines, transaxle, suspension setups, etc...

The new cleverly designed (and marketed) Volkswagen Group MLP (MLB in German) platform (Modular Longitudinal Platform) and MTB (MQB in German) platform (Modular Tranverse Platform) are nothing else than design matrix where around the central difference (engine positioning) there will be lots of frame component sharing as VW see fits, firewalls, structural ribs, parts of the floorplan, suspension, etc...


An A4?? No sorry, a budget SEAT Exeo.....









To be fair you have to say both have an apealing mix to "some" of different concepts. The TL is not selling nearly as well as its predecessors did so it's got its own set of issues.
The TL styling has not been digested by many....yet...it still sells as many A4 (a cheaper car by price entry point) at october 2010 YTD...actually the market comparison between a TL and an A4 is not correct...the A4 competitor in the Acura lineup is the TSX not the TL.......and yes the TSX has the significant disadvantage of not having an AWD version...hopefulyl Acura will fix that soon. The TL is more of a competitor of the A6 and the 5 Series.......the RL at the moment does not make sense in the lineup unless it grows a bit and get more powerful engines.

[quote]

Also, he might have meant the 2011 Charger, which is a huge improvement it seems compared to the 2006-2010. The interior has an actual design now and has all soft touch materials and more leather coverings, at least about as much leather as the TL has. Its aluminum dash is actually aluminum, it has lots of technology the TL doesn't offer, and its base V-6 is now more advantages than any of our Acuras' J engine.
[quote]

I reserve judgment on the 2011 Charger because I have not seen the car yet nor I have researched further, however Chrysler current owner (FIAT Group) is a seriously cash strapped company with huge issues (they go from one financial crisis to the next) at the moment....I give them the benefit of the doubt but I don't know how much real money has been spent on the new Charger...we will see...

[quote]
The platform was originally less than 20 percent Mercedes parts, and now it's even less. A lot of the media gives you the impression it's just a stretched old MB platform, which is completely false.
[quote]

The Charger/300C share with that old Mercedes platform many the frame components, structural ribs between the wheelbase, suspension housing and setup, transmission design....I don't know about percentage but it is a lot....Chrysler could not have come with that competent sedan on their own at that moment in such short time...all they had was their lousy LH FWD platform....

It's all opinion based.
On that we totally agree....some cars are clearly luxury from any perspective......if an A4 is more luxurious of a TL it's all in someone mind.....

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Old 11-12-2010, 02:43 PM
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Yes, and I have had Lexus, BMW, and Infinity, the Acura 2010 TL SH-AWD is my Top pick.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post

Let's correct that a little bit

A1 (not yet sold in the US) - VW platform
A4- Audi platform (up to 2005 shared with the VW Passat and others) the current platform is shared with the SEAT Exeo (not sold in the US, sold in Europe, Latin America, South Africa and other low-middle income markets)

SEAT is a budget brand placed under VW in the marketplace.


Q7- VW platform, but the Touareg is a not a luxury SUV anyway (we perfectly cross shopped years ago when we got my wife Tribeca)
I was discussing American products that we get, not global ones. In Europe many luxury cars as we call them are sold with little more than cloth seats and 16 inch wheels. And German brands sell more economy based models, but that doesn't really affect us here in Norde America. Or, for example, the Acura CSX in Canada as a Japanese take on the same concept.

The Seat you mention is based on an Audi, yes, but not a new Audi. It's based on the old A4, not the 2009-Present model. The Audi is therefore not based on a VW, a VW-owned company based their product on the Audi after the fact.

The Touareg is definitely a luxury SUV. The VR6 is priced like a MDX and the V-8 only gets more expensive from there. I would mention that in Europe they have hugely expensive R50s or the W12 but since I dismissed Europe's market earlier I am unable to officially use that as a point of information.

Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
The Charger/300C share with that old Mercedes platform many the frame components, structural ribs between the wheelbase, suspension housing and setup, transmission design....I don't know about percentage but it is a lot....Chrysler could not have come with that competent sedan on their own at that moment in such short time...all they had was their lousy LH FWD platform....
I wouldn't call 20 percent a lot, but I suppose that's all opinion based as well. Like I said, the old model used 20 percent and the new one already uses less than that. The transmission is being replaced by a ZF sourced 8-speed as well, so that -among other things- is proof that the car is moving further and further away from the minimalistic 20 percent it used from 2005-2010. I know what you mean, however.

Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
On that we totally agree....some cars are clearly luxury from any perspective......if an A4 is more luxurious of a TL it's all in someone mind.....
Quite true.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Raven34 View Post
Yes, and I have had Lexus, BMW, and Infinity, the Acura 2010 TL SH-AWD is my Top pick.
What's an Infinity?
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