4th Gen TL - Thoughts before purchase
12-15-2009, 02:40 AM
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4th Gen TL - Thoughts before purchase
So, before making a big purchase, thought I would check in here. Do I understand correctly that the 4th Gen TL has been out since 2009 so it's in its 2nd year now?
Also, what quirks and things to look out for when looking to purchase this car? Any major recalls or things to look out for yet?
Why does Acura not provide DVD screens on head rests as an option!?
And more importantly, why does the fully loaded version not come fully loaded? ie. lots of accessories and body kit that requires more money! Come on Acura! [IMG]/forums/images.old/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Also, what quirks and things to look out for when looking to purchase this car? Any major recalls or things to look out for yet?
Why does Acura not provide DVD screens on head rests as an option!?
And more importantly, why does the fully loaded version not come fully loaded? ie. lots of accessories and body kit that requires more money! Come on Acura! [IMG]/forums/images.old/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
12-15-2009, 03:48 AM
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huh! 
that's a good point - fully loaded isn't really, fully loaded per say, is it? I guess maybe all the other options are "luxury" add-ons. What it comes with standard from the get go, as you described "fully loaded," includes standard options that come in other vehicles in its class. Some of that stuff are thousands of dollars more on say, BMW and Audi vehicles. But I don't know...just my 
. Anyways, onto your new purchase - first off, congrats! I'd recommend staying away from the color black; I've had a 3rd gen TL going on almost 5 years now (2005 TL), and from day one I've always had swirls, swirls, swirls! Don't get me wrong, it's a BEAUTIFUL color, but practically, it's too difficult to maintain for the average driver. So, definitely look for swirls - they're more obvious on darker colored cars, of course, but they're still there on the whites/lighter colors. Check for RATTLES. I'm not too informed on the 4th gen TL's, but rattles were BAD in the 3rd gen. Lots of plastic for sound insulation purposes. Check alignment, and ask them to lift the car up on a rack. Sure it's unlikely, but who knows what happened during delivery from point A (factory) to the dealer. Check for RUST. I've seen a few brand new TL's with rust on them...surprising . Check for paint chips. It's another unlikely possibility, but it's possible that it could have been damaged during delivery. Check leather. It's almost pointless to do so, because once you start sitting it in, and wearing it down, it'll start to show wrinkles and such; unfortunately, Acura doesn't use the best quality leather. Hm.... that's all that I can really think of off the top of my head. Best of luck!
PS I worked for an Acura dealer a few summers ago while I wasn't taking any classes (solely for the purpose of getting myself and friends parts! lol). The mindset that many of the salesmen have: "It's all about presentation! Once it's gone, it's their problem!" They'll do everything and anything to get you jump in and drive off with it. Be extra, extra, extra thorough when you take delivery. This, my friend, was my mistake when I took delivery of my brand new 2005 TL, back in 2004.
that's a good point - fully loaded isn't really, fully loaded per say, is it? I guess maybe all the other options are "luxury" add-ons. What it comes with standard from the get go, as you described "fully loaded," includes standard options that come in other vehicles in its class. Some of that stuff are thousands of dollars more on say, BMW and Audi vehicles. But I don't know...just my . Anyways, onto your new purchase - first off, congrats! I'd recommend staying away from the color black; I've had a 3rd gen TL going on almost 5 years now (2005 TL), and from day one I've always had swirls, swirls, swirls! Don't get me wrong, it's a BEAUTIFUL color, but practically, it's too difficult to maintain for the average driver. So, definitely look for swirls - they're more obvious on darker colored cars, of course, but they're still there on the whites/lighter colors. Check for RATTLES. I'm not too informed on the 4th gen TL's, but rattles were BAD in the 3rd gen. Lots of plastic for sound insulation purposes. Check alignment, and ask them to lift the car up on a rack. Sure it's unlikely, but who knows what happened during delivery from point A (factory) to the dealer. Check for RUST. I've seen a few brand new TL's with rust on them...surprising . Check for paint chips. It's another unlikely possibility, but it's possible that it could have been damaged during delivery. Check leather. It's almost pointless to do so, because once you start sitting it in, and wearing it down, it'll start to show wrinkles and such; unfortunately, Acura doesn't use the best quality leather. Hm.... that's all that I can really think of off the top of my head. Best of luck!PS I worked for an Acura dealer a few summers ago while I wasn't taking any classes (solely for the purpose of getting myself and friends parts! lol). The mindset that many of the salesmen have: "It's all about presentation! Once it's gone, it's their problem!" They'll do everything and anything to get you jump in and drive off with it. Be extra, extra, extra thorough when you take delivery. This, my friend, was my mistake when I took delivery of my brand new 2005 TL, back in 2004.
Last edited by erick3; 12-15-2009 at 03:52 AM.
12-15-2009, 07:58 AM
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Also, what quirks and things to look out for when looking to purchase this car? Any major recalls or things to look out for yet?
Why does Acura not provide DVD screens on head rests as an option!?
It's not as much "luxury" as it is "practical performance" or "luxury performance" (that is, a performance car that provides luxury, not a luxury car that provides performance).
What is it that appeals to you about the 2010 TL, and which specific model are you looking at? To be honest, it seems to me that most people who'd be looking for headrest TV screens would usually not even be looking at the TL.
And more importantly, why does the fully loaded version not come fully loaded? ie. lots of accessories and body kit that requires more money!
Your comment about the body kit rather belies your comment about the TV screen. I am surprised that the same person would want both of those things.
Acura simply "fully loads" cars to a different standard.
For example, SH-AWD is still a generation ahead of anything you'll find on any car in 2010 in the United States, unless you've spent $100,000 on the Nissan GT-R.
And the 440 watt ELS stereo that comes with the Tech Package is the industry's best factory system, at any price.
Acura's just a different kind of fully loaded, and you either get it or you don't, I guess. :-)
12-15-2009, 08:50 AM
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12-15-2009, 02:48 PM
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Thanks for all the info here. Appreciate your time to post some feedback.
Why does it surprise you that someone who wants a DVD option also wants the body kit when paying this kind of a price for a car? These option serve a different purpose and I don't think there are any contradictions in wanting a DVD player for the family and wanting skirts to make the car look more sporty. After all, isn't the 305 HP SH-AWD TL about luxury and performance?
Why does it surprise you that someone who wants a DVD option also wants the body kit when paying this kind of a price for a car? These option serve a different purpose and I don't think there are any contradictions in wanting a DVD player for the family and wanting skirts to make the car look more sporty. After all, isn't the 305 HP SH-AWD TL about luxury and performance?
12-15-2009, 05:30 PM
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You are who you are, and if it's what you want to do, that's fine. It's your car.
But it surprises me because it's unusual, that's all. :-)
Luxury and performance? Yes, sure. But I think 4G TL is probably more focused on something we might label "logical luxury" or "performance (accent on performance) luxury."
I don't think we mean for it to be the ultimate vehicle in competition with cars costing 10 or 20 grand more, if that makes sense.
It just surprises me that somebody looking at the TL would be interested in a TV screen of any kind.
Last edited by George Knighton; 12-15-2009 at 05:32 PM.
12-15-2009, 09:04 PM
#7
Suzuka Master
So, before making a big purchase, thought I would check in here. Do I understand correctly that the 4th Gen TL has been out since 2009 so it's in its 2nd year now?
Also, what quirks and things to look out for when looking to purchase this car? Any major recalls or things to look out for yet?
]
Also, what quirks and things to look out for when looking to purchase this car? Any major recalls or things to look out for yet?
]
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12-15-2009, 09:11 PM
#8
I find myself standing again with George. As a car junkie ever since I realized that my dad had a serious love affair with his baby-blue '57 Buick RoadMaster convertible with straight pipes, it looks to me that Honda/Acura has had a very specific market segment in mind with their performance vehicles and focused on same.
If you think about it, to pre-wire all possible bling options like headrest LCDs adds weight and expense that few owners would opt for, not to mention detracting from the performance factor. Those that do have dealer-installed stuff like wowie-wings, skirts and a huge aftermarket available for the rest. When I think about rear-seat entertainment, I think of a minivan or SUV, not a luxury sports sedan.
George, now that you made that site confession, you have to give up the rest! Do I already have that website in my Favorites folder? Let's name some names here!
If you think about it, to pre-wire all possible bling options like headrest LCDs adds weight and expense that few owners would opt for, not to mention detracting from the performance factor. Those that do have dealer-installed stuff like wowie-wings, skirts and a huge aftermarket available for the rest. When I think about rear-seat entertainment, I think of a minivan or SUV, not a luxury sports sedan.
George, now that you made that site confession, you have to give up the rest! Do I already have that website in my Favorites folder? Let's name some names here!
12-16-2009, 04:51 AM
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BMW offers backseat DVD as an option in the 5 and 7 series so it's not unusual that someone would want a car that is completely decked out in terms of performance and luxury, it's just unusual that such people would look at the Acura brand in general.
There are a few nutbars out there who literally "fully load" their Acura's to the max, but when you do that the price tag becomes too high to justify finding yourself at an Acura dealership. If you added every gold emblem and body kit and mud flap in the catalog to a V6 TSX, ultimately you'd be driving away with a $45,000 Honda Accord covered in crap.
There are a few nutbars out there who literally "fully load" their Acura's to the max, but when you do that the price tag becomes too high to justify finding yourself at an Acura dealership. If you added every gold emblem and body kit and mud flap in the catalog to a V6 TSX, ultimately you'd be driving away with a $45,000 Honda Accord covered in crap.
12-16-2009, 05:02 AM
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I find myself standing again with George. As a car junkie ever since I realized that my dad had a serious love affair with his baby-blue '57 Buick RoadMaster convertible with straight pipes, it looks to me that Honda/Acura has had a very specific market segment in mind with their performance vehicles and focused on same.
If you think about it, to pre-wire all possible bling options like headrest LCDs adds weight and expense that few owners would opt for, not to mention detracting from the performance factor. Those that do have dealer-installed stuff like wowie-wings, skirts and a huge aftermarket available for the rest. When I think about rear-seat entertainment, I think of a minivan or SUV, not a luxury sports sedan.
If you think about it, to pre-wire all possible bling options like headrest LCDs adds weight and expense that few owners would opt for, not to mention detracting from the performance factor. Those that do have dealer-installed stuff like wowie-wings, skirts and a huge aftermarket available for the rest. When I think about rear-seat entertainment, I think of a minivan or SUV, not a luxury sports sedan.
It has nothing to do with corporate philosophy, it's about market realities. If their customers would purchase these options in sufficient numbers they'd have them available by tomorrow morning.
It looks like Acura will either move further towards affordable luxury or they'll borrow from the new Honda models and "go green". I don't think becoming sports oriented is even a consideration at the moment. I think that Acura's people had felt they tried sporty in the late 90's early 00's and were crushed by Lexus and everyone else as a result of that move.
12-16-2009, 07:31 AM
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The V8 and a RWD Legend platform are developed, but shelved, as you suggest, for reasons of economic prudence. It's not the right time to think about competing in that market, and the idea is generally beyond Honda's Green mission and the Safety For Everyone programmes.
Personally, I have no qualms referring to Acura as the Logical Luxury or Luxury Performance wing of Honda, and I'm puzzled by the vitriole you're spewing.
What kind of Acura do you drive, just out of curiosity?
Personally, I have no qualms referring to Acura as the Logical Luxury or Luxury Performance wing of Honda, and I'm puzzled by the vitriole you're spewing.
What kind of Acura do you drive, just out of curiosity?
12-16-2009, 09:58 AM
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Acura isn't swimming in the same waters as the Germans. In the RWD platform, they're the 800 lb gorilla. Lexus is competing with M-B, (and BMW, to a lesser degree). Lexus tries, but mostly comes out on the short end. Acura is really competing against Infiniti and the other Japanese FWD makes, which it does quite well.
If you live anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon line, and want a reliable car that's good in the snow, you're buying FWD and AWD and you're buying Japanese. Infiniti doesn't even bring in their RWD models where I live.
What Acura knows is that the RWD scene is dominated by the Germans. What they also know is that it's shrinking due to the economy. So if you're going to position yourself for the long haul, you back off the effort to become a "Tier 1" player and go back to selling the cars that people will buy. People will buy a RWD Genesis because it's $35k and loaded, not because it's RWD. When the economy took a dump, the only car manufacturers who didn't lose money were the Japanese, and that was because of the value aspect. If we ever get back to having money again, I foresee a return of the NSX, possibly a V-8 and/or RWD RL or Legend again.
I just bought a TL, coming from an Accord, and the TL is no Accord.
12-16-2009, 01:35 PM
#13
Performance? Acura? The only luxury maker to not offer a V8? One of, if not the only, luxury marque to not offer RWD? The same Acura that killed the RSX and NSX?
It has nothing to do with corporate philosophy, it's about market realities. If their customers would purchase these options in sufficient numbers they'd have them available by tomorrow morning.
It looks like Acura will either move further towards affordable luxury or they'll borrow from the new Honda models and "go green". I don't think becoming sports oriented is even a consideration at the moment. I think that Acura's people had felt they tried sporty in the late 90's early 00's and were crushed by Lexus and everyone else as a result of that move.
It has nothing to do with corporate philosophy, it's about market realities. If their customers would purchase these options in sufficient numbers they'd have them available by tomorrow morning.
It looks like Acura will either move further towards affordable luxury or they'll borrow from the new Honda models and "go green". I don't think becoming sports oriented is even a consideration at the moment. I think that Acura's people had felt they tried sporty in the late 90's early 00's and were crushed by Lexus and everyone else as a result of that move.
The advancements and of AWD are starting to show that it can be a more dynamic platform than RWD when engineered that way from the start, instead of just being an all weather option for RWD vehicles.
While Acura up until recently was mostly just FWD it was still a very performance oriented product and the 3G TL outperformed many of it's RWD and older V8 rivals at the time, even in handling. The Acura brand as well as their customers think outside the box and are trying the change the ignorance that surrounds the luxury segments.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 12-16-2009 at 01:38 PM.
12-16-2009, 02:54 PM
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The V8 and a RWD Legend platform are developed, but shelved, as you suggest, for reasons of economic prudence. It's not the right time to think about competing in that market, and the idea is generally beyond Honda's Green mission and the Safety For Everyone programmes.
Personally, I have no qualms referring to Acura as the Logical Luxury or Luxury Performance wing of Honda, and I'm puzzled by the vitriole you're spewing.
What kind of Acura do you drive, just out of curiosity?
Personally, I have no qualms referring to Acura as the Logical Luxury or Luxury Performance wing of Honda, and I'm puzzled by the vitriole you're spewing.
What kind of Acura do you drive, just out of curiosity?
My understanding was that the Integra, Legend and Vigor were meant to be cheaper answers to BMW models while Lexus and Infinity were focused more specifically on luxury, and Acura came up behind at the end of the 90's. Ever since Acura has been erasing sporty from their lineup. Even the Lexus IS series is more sporty than anything Acura is offering at the moment.
The 3G TL was a good argument for sportiness, but it was based on an Accord, thusly the critics bashed the torque steer and then Acura killed it.
The new TL SH-AWD is a decent car aside from its looks, but it's a very big sedan. It looks like a Buick.
I like Acuras. I have one that's only a year old. They're just not as sporty as they used to be.
12-16-2009, 03:05 PM
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12-16-2009, 03:27 PM
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This article answers nearly all of the questions posed here: http://www.forbes.com/2003/04/01/cz_jf_0401flint.html
Remember back when Japanese cars were small, inexpensive and unpretentious?
That changed in 1986. Honda Motor (nyse: HMC - news - people ) moved upscale with its Acura division aimed at the luxury market.
Talk about overnight success: Acura was quickly outselling Mercedes-Benz and BMW. And then Toyota Motor (nyse: TM - news - people ) started Lexus, and Acura outsold that, too.
But that was then and this is now.
Where is Acura in today's luxury market? Most of the cars sold are sport sedans and coupes, costing $30,000 or less. Consumer Reports likes them, and testers give them good marks for handling. But most of them aren't luxury cars. Acura's best seller so far this year is a fine sport utility vehicle, the MDX, a $40,000 rival to Toyota's Lexus RX 330, but that's not quite a car; it's a cross between an SUV and a minivan, these days dubbed a "crossover."
What went wrong? It's just hard to score in the luxury market when you refuse to do an eight-cylinder engine, wear undistinguished styling and don't offer a rear-wheel-drive car. Acura's absurd system for naming its cars doesn't help either.
Let's look at these problems one by one:
Honda has an almost religious fervor when it comes to not doing an eight-cylinder car. Its $45,000 (sticker) flagship sedan, the RL, only has a six. But the top competitors in the luxury field also offer eights or even bigger engines. When Acura was new, its luxury model, the Legend, was selling 50,000 per year. Last year the RL, the Legend's replacement, sold only 9,392 units. Honda targets the RL against the Mercedes E-Class and BMW 5 Series. But each of those sold more than 40,000 units last year.
Undistinguished styling: Well, just look at the cars. It's not that they look bad, but they aren't anything special.
The Acura TL Type-S
Front-wheel drive is another drawback. Luxury cars, with a few exceptions such as Audis and the Cadillac Deville, are rear-wheel drive. Audi gets away with it by making all-wheel drive available. Going front-wheel drive was a screwup that nearly ruined Cadillac. General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) is now rectifying that mistake. Not Honda. While Acuras are good handling cars, they rarely come out on top in road tests against rear-wheel-drive models from BMW, Mercedes or Nissan's (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) Infiniti. In short, Acura has conceded the driving-enthusiast market to those competitors.
Model names are another problem. This is one of the strangest stories in Acura history. The original Legend was quite successful, but Honda executives decided they had a problem: More Americans knew the Legend name than the Acura name. Honda's bosses also fretted that their competitors in the luxury segment were using alphanumeric designations, such as SE 450, rather than names like Legend, Integra and Vigor.
So what did Acura do? They renamed their most successful car, the Legend, as the RL. This probably was the dumbest naming decision since Nissan abandoned the name Datsun decades ago.
In fairness, everyone seems to be trying to copy the Germans in using alphanumeric model designations, and most of them are awful. Today's Acura models are the RL, CL, TL, MDX, RSX and NSX. It's really hard to keep them straight or develop an interest in them.
Let me show you some figures that will make this clear.
Acura came out in 1986; its first full year was 1987, in which sales totaled 109,000 cars, including 55,000 Legends. The smaller Integra cars were tossed in to make sure the dealers had enough sales to survive in case the Legend bombed.
By 1990, the Acura total was 138,000, including 54,000 Legends. That same year, Mercedes sold 78,000 cars; BMW and Lexus each sold 64,000.
Last year, Acura sold 113,000 cars, about the same as it did in 1994. Its MDX sport utility vehicle pulled in another 53,000 customers, bringing total sales to 166,000. How does Acura currently stack up against the competition?
2002 Unit Sales
Marque Cars Light Trucks Total
Acura 113,000 53,000 166,000
BMW 189,000 43,000 232,000
Lexus 150,000 84,000 234,000
Mercedes 170,000 43,000 213,000
In short, the others just left Acura behind.
Look at the NSX, the Acura $90,000 sports car, which was exciting at first but is now a flop. Acura sold only 233 of them last year, compared to 13,717 Mercedes SL models.
The newest Acura, the TSX, is just coming out. It's really the European Accord, which is smaller than the American Accord. The TSX is a lively performer with a 200-horsepower four-cylinder engine, and will sticker around $30,000. This new sedan sort of fills the product hole created when the four-door Integra was dropped a few years ago. But I don't see this as a high-volume car, and neither does Acura. The sales target is only 15,000 units this year.
Honda didn't want to go where the luxury buyers go; it wanted luxury buyers to go on its road. And that hasn't worked, even for a great carmaker like Honda.
That changed in 1986. Honda Motor (nyse: HMC - news - people ) moved upscale with its Acura division aimed at the luxury market.
Talk about overnight success: Acura was quickly outselling Mercedes-Benz and BMW. And then Toyota Motor (nyse: TM - news - people ) started Lexus, and Acura outsold that, too.
But that was then and this is now.
Where is Acura in today's luxury market? Most of the cars sold are sport sedans and coupes, costing $30,000 or less. Consumer Reports likes them, and testers give them good marks for handling. But most of them aren't luxury cars. Acura's best seller so far this year is a fine sport utility vehicle, the MDX, a $40,000 rival to Toyota's Lexus RX 330, but that's not quite a car; it's a cross between an SUV and a minivan, these days dubbed a "crossover."
What went wrong? It's just hard to score in the luxury market when you refuse to do an eight-cylinder engine, wear undistinguished styling and don't offer a rear-wheel-drive car. Acura's absurd system for naming its cars doesn't help either.
Let's look at these problems one by one:
Honda has an almost religious fervor when it comes to not doing an eight-cylinder car. Its $45,000 (sticker) flagship sedan, the RL, only has a six. But the top competitors in the luxury field also offer eights or even bigger engines. When Acura was new, its luxury model, the Legend, was selling 50,000 per year. Last year the RL, the Legend's replacement, sold only 9,392 units. Honda targets the RL against the Mercedes E-Class and BMW 5 Series. But each of those sold more than 40,000 units last year.
Undistinguished styling: Well, just look at the cars. It's not that they look bad, but they aren't anything special.
The Acura TL Type-S
Front-wheel drive is another drawback. Luxury cars, with a few exceptions such as Audis and the Cadillac Deville, are rear-wheel drive. Audi gets away with it by making all-wheel drive available. Going front-wheel drive was a screwup that nearly ruined Cadillac. General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) is now rectifying that mistake. Not Honda. While Acuras are good handling cars, they rarely come out on top in road tests against rear-wheel-drive models from BMW, Mercedes or Nissan's (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) Infiniti. In short, Acura has conceded the driving-enthusiast market to those competitors.
Model names are another problem. This is one of the strangest stories in Acura history. The original Legend was quite successful, but Honda executives decided they had a problem: More Americans knew the Legend name than the Acura name. Honda's bosses also fretted that their competitors in the luxury segment were using alphanumeric designations, such as SE 450, rather than names like Legend, Integra and Vigor.
So what did Acura do? They renamed their most successful car, the Legend, as the RL. This probably was the dumbest naming decision since Nissan abandoned the name Datsun decades ago.
In fairness, everyone seems to be trying to copy the Germans in using alphanumeric model designations, and most of them are awful. Today's Acura models are the RL, CL, TL, MDX, RSX and NSX. It's really hard to keep them straight or develop an interest in them.
Let me show you some figures that will make this clear.
Acura came out in 1986; its first full year was 1987, in which sales totaled 109,000 cars, including 55,000 Legends. The smaller Integra cars were tossed in to make sure the dealers had enough sales to survive in case the Legend bombed.
By 1990, the Acura total was 138,000, including 54,000 Legends. That same year, Mercedes sold 78,000 cars; BMW and Lexus each sold 64,000.
Last year, Acura sold 113,000 cars, about the same as it did in 1994. Its MDX sport utility vehicle pulled in another 53,000 customers, bringing total sales to 166,000. How does Acura currently stack up against the competition?
2002 Unit Sales
Marque Cars Light Trucks Total
Acura 113,000 53,000 166,000
BMW 189,000 43,000 232,000
Lexus 150,000 84,000 234,000
Mercedes 170,000 43,000 213,000
In short, the others just left Acura behind.
Look at the NSX, the Acura $90,000 sports car, which was exciting at first but is now a flop. Acura sold only 233 of them last year, compared to 13,717 Mercedes SL models.
The newest Acura, the TSX, is just coming out. It's really the European Accord, which is smaller than the American Accord. The TSX is a lively performer with a 200-horsepower four-cylinder engine, and will sticker around $30,000. This new sedan sort of fills the product hole created when the four-door Integra was dropped a few years ago. But I don't see this as a high-volume car, and neither does Acura. The sales target is only 15,000 units this year.
Honda didn't want to go where the luxury buyers go; it wanted luxury buyers to go on its road. And that hasn't worked, even for a great carmaker like Honda.
12-16-2009, 03:47 PM
#17
Racer
So to me, the only reason I'm driving a non-German car right now is that Acura has a performance car meeting my needs.
V-8? Why? This thing is seriously fast and a bit nose-heavy already!
12-16-2009, 03:52 PM
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This article answers nearly all of the questions posed here: http://www.forbes.com/2003/04/01/cz_jf_0401flint.html
I would not gauge success in those terms, and the writer has some very clearly expressed prejudices.
But if that's how you want to see it, that's certainly your privilege.
12-16-2009, 04:08 PM
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There's lots of ways to interpret events, but the numbers don't lie. The measurements of their vehicles have become larger and larger over the past decade, and I don't associate larger with more sporty.
But I have to give credit to the MDX; it's more performance oriented than competing SUVs, but given how Honda/Acura has been going I want to chalk that up to circumstance.
But I have to give credit to the MDX; it's more performance oriented than competing SUVs, but given how Honda/Acura has been going I want to chalk that up to circumstance.
12-16-2009, 06:38 PM
#20
I wouldn't base an opinion from an article, all they really do is just twist facts to support their own (another) opinion and this one happens to be over 6 years old.
This is just more popular belief or perception. Most cars have grown and continue to grow in size with time. Size does not necessarily have anything to do with level of performance. A larger heavier car can be more perfromance capable than a smaller lighter one. You measure a car on it's own merits not by generalizations.
Not all the cars are larger everywhere. The 3G TL and current RL are shorter than the previous generations as are the wheelbases but overall they have consistantly grown in width and track and that is a great thing IMO. The most important thing to remember is that they are the most performance capable now then they have ever been regardless of where they have gone up in size or not. A look at recent performance stats on the whole lineup will confirm this, I don't see how anyone could feel the opposite. If they can continue to add more overall performance and added size just so happens to come with that as a bonus then why should anyone have a problem with it?
This is just more popular belief or perception. Most cars have grown and continue to grow in size with time. Size does not necessarily have anything to do with level of performance. A larger heavier car can be more perfromance capable than a smaller lighter one. You measure a car on it's own merits not by generalizations.
Not all the cars are larger everywhere. The 3G TL and current RL are shorter than the previous generations as are the wheelbases but overall they have consistantly grown in width and track and that is a great thing IMO. The most important thing to remember is that they are the most performance capable now then they have ever been regardless of where they have gone up in size or not. A look at recent performance stats on the whole lineup will confirm this, I don't see how anyone could feel the opposite. If they can continue to add more overall performance and added size just so happens to come with that as a bonus then why should anyone have a problem with it?
12-16-2009, 07:21 PM
#21
2010 TL AWD 6MT: New King
This article answers nearly all of the questions posed here: http://www.forbes.com/2003/04/01/cz_jf_0401flint.html
1) The article was published in 2003, much have changed since then
2) Acura no longer has undistinguished styling. Whether or not one likes the new Acura styling, it is distinguishable, and each model has its own unique style.
The same cannot be said for BMW and Audi. IMHO, BMW and Audis, while having tasteful exterior designs, tend to look alike. It's hard to tell a 3 series from a 5 series, and now the A6/A8 are all looking like stretched A4s.
3) Acura now has SH-AWD, so can no longer be held out as being FWD. SH-AWD is FWD biased, but is an evolutionary design in its own right. Since its introduction, Audi and BMW have mimicries Acura's torque vectoring system.
4) Recent articles suggest the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD to be tops among overall performance against the BMW 335i/xi, S4, and G35.
5) I'm not sure why Acura's naming nomenclature of its cars having anything to do with...anything. How is "A4" or "335xi" any better, or worse, than TL or TSX?
6) Acura is sticking with V6 b/c of federal mandates for future fuel efficiency, and b/c of the economic crisis. Acura is thinking and planning for the future. Acura is about refinement, and its V6 engines are on par with many V8s (ie. Acura MDX vs Lexus LX/GX).
How will the likes of BMW, Audi, and MB adapt to federal regulations of 35.5 mpg for passenger cars?
IMHO, Acura has a solid lineup forming, and is anticipating for the future.
To help answer the OP, the 2010 TL SH-AWD is a true sports sedan in nearly every aspect.
12-16-2009, 10:12 PM
#22
I agree with everything Docboy says except this...
Maybe I'm reading the wrong articles, but I have yet to see any comparo from a large publication that puts the TL ahead of the 335 or G35/G37.
Having said that, I was car shopping for an eternity. Considered everything from the TSX, to the G37Xs, 335, CTS, Pontiac G8, and the IS. After pricing every car the way I wanted them configured, driving them all, and considering reliability, I ended up with the TL SH-AWD. Some others were faster, some others had nicer interiors, but none struck the kind of balance between price / performance / features as the TL. For the money, it's one of the best cars out there in my opinion.
Luckily, I also happen to be one of the few that loves the styling. When I walk up to my car I freakin' love it.
With that said, even though I feel too young to say something like this, they don't make cars like they used to. My '97 CL may not have been as big or as powerful, but the interior quality was vastly superior to the TL, and although it's too early to say, I suspect the TL won't hold up as well over the long haul. I'm one of those people who hold onto their cars forever though (had that CL for almost 13 years!). If you only plan to keep it for the term of the loan or lease, I can't fathom anyone being unhappy with the TL, as long as they did their homework before hand.
Mine's been back to the dealership for 40+ days since I bought it in July (currently without it for almost 3 weeks), and should I move forward with lemon law arbitration to get my money back, I'm buying the exact same car.
Having said that, I was car shopping for an eternity. Considered everything from the TSX, to the G37Xs, 335, CTS, Pontiac G8, and the IS. After pricing every car the way I wanted them configured, driving them all, and considering reliability, I ended up with the TL SH-AWD. Some others were faster, some others had nicer interiors, but none struck the kind of balance between price / performance / features as the TL. For the money, it's one of the best cars out there in my opinion.
Luckily, I also happen to be one of the few that loves the styling. When I walk up to my car I freakin' love it.
With that said, even though I feel too young to say something like this, they don't make cars like they used to. My '97 CL may not have been as big or as powerful, but the interior quality was vastly superior to the TL, and although it's too early to say, I suspect the TL won't hold up as well over the long haul. I'm one of those people who hold onto their cars forever though (had that CL for almost 13 years!). If you only plan to keep it for the term of the loan or lease, I can't fathom anyone being unhappy with the TL, as long as they did their homework before hand.
Mine's been back to the dealership for 40+ days since I bought it in July (currently without it for almost 3 weeks), and should I move forward with lemon law arbitration to get my money back, I'm buying the exact same car.
12-16-2009, 11:04 PM
#23
2010 TL AWD 6MT: New King
I agree with everything Docboy says except this...
Quote: Originally Posted by docboy
4) Recent articles suggest the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD to be tops among overall performance against the BMW 335i/xi, S4, and G35.
Maybe I'm reading the wrong articles, but I have yet to see any comparo from a large publication that puts the TL ahead of the 335 or G35/G37.
Having said that, I was car shopping for an eternity. Considered everything from the TSX, to the G37Xs, 335, CTS, Pontiac G8, and the IS. After pricing every car the way I wanted them configured, driving them all, and considering reliability, I ended up with the TL SH-AWD. Some others were faster, some others had nicer interiors, but none struck the kind of balance between price / performance / features as the TL. For the money, it's one of the best cars out there in my opinion.
Luckily, I also happen to be one of the few that loves the styling. When I walk up to my car I freakin' love it.
With that said, even though I feel too young to say something like this, they don't make cars like they used to. My '97 CL may not have been as big or as powerful, but the interior quality was vastly superior to the TL, and although it's too early to say, I suspect the TL won't hold up as well over the long haul. I'm one of those people who hold onto their cars forever though (had that CL for almost 13 years!). If you only plan to keep it for the term of the loan or lease, I can't fathom anyone being unhappy with the TL, as long as they did their homework before hand.
Mine's been back to the dealership for 40+ days since I bought it in July (currently without it for almost 3 weeks), and should I move forward with lemon law arbitration to get my money back, I'm buying the exact same car.
Quote: Originally Posted by docboy
4) Recent articles suggest the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD to be tops among overall performance against the BMW 335i/xi, S4, and G35.
Maybe I'm reading the wrong articles, but I have yet to see any comparo from a large publication that puts the TL ahead of the 335 or G35/G37.
Having said that, I was car shopping for an eternity. Considered everything from the TSX, to the G37Xs, 335, CTS, Pontiac G8, and the IS. After pricing every car the way I wanted them configured, driving them all, and considering reliability, I ended up with the TL SH-AWD. Some others were faster, some others had nicer interiors, but none struck the kind of balance between price / performance / features as the TL. For the money, it's one of the best cars out there in my opinion.
Luckily, I also happen to be one of the few that loves the styling. When I walk up to my car I freakin' love it.
With that said, even though I feel too young to say something like this, they don't make cars like they used to. My '97 CL may not have been as big or as powerful, but the interior quality was vastly superior to the TL, and although it's too early to say, I suspect the TL won't hold up as well over the long haul. I'm one of those people who hold onto their cars forever though (had that CL for almost 13 years!). If you only plan to keep it for the term of the loan or lease, I can't fathom anyone being unhappy with the TL, as long as they did their homework before hand.
Mine's been back to the dealership for 40+ days since I bought it in July (currently without it for almost 3 weeks), and should I move forward with lemon law arbitration to get my money back, I'm buying the exact same car.
Caused a little controversy b/c some readers claim the test was staged (all the cars were tested on a Honda track), and b/c some claim Acura used their "new" 2010 model and compared it to "old" 2008s. Nevertheless, it gives a glimpse and taste on just how well engineered the 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT is.
http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html
12-16-2009, 11:12 PM
#24
2010 TL AWD 6MT: New King
For the money, it's one of the best cars out there in my opinion.
Luckily, I also happen to be one of the few that loves the styling. When I walk up to my car I freakin' love it.
With that said, even though I feel too young to say something like this, they don't make cars like they used to. My '97 CL may not have been as big or as powerful, but the interior quality was vastly superior to the TL, and although it's too early to say, I suspect the TL won't hold up as well over the long haul. I'm one of those people who hold onto their cars forever though (had that CL for almost 13 years!). If you only plan to keep it for the term of the loan or lease, I can't fathom anyone being unhappy with the TL, as long as they did their homework before hand.
Mine's been back to the dealership for 40+ days since I bought it in July (currently without it for almost 3 weeks), and should I move forward with lemon law arbitration to get my money back, I'm buying the exact same car.
Luckily, I also happen to be one of the few that loves the styling. When I walk up to my car I freakin' love it.
With that said, even though I feel too young to say something like this, they don't make cars like they used to. My '97 CL may not have been as big or as powerful, but the interior quality was vastly superior to the TL, and although it's too early to say, I suspect the TL won't hold up as well over the long haul. I'm one of those people who hold onto their cars forever though (had that CL for almost 13 years!). If you only plan to keep it for the term of the loan or lease, I can't fathom anyone being unhappy with the TL, as long as they did their homework before hand.
Mine's been back to the dealership for 40+ days since I bought it in July (currently without it for almost 3 weeks), and should I move forward with lemon law arbitration to get my money back, I'm buying the exact same car.
The styling is unique. Definitely very fresh, stands out, and I constantly am still getting compliments about my car (I've had my TL for a few months, and I even get repeated compliments from the same people). I never had this with my 1G TSX and my wolf-in-sheep-clothing 2009 Lexus IS I had briefly (which I absolutely hated).
Sorry to hear about the problems with your TL. What problems did your TL incur? It speaks highly though, that you plan on getting another TL if you decide to lemon your current TL. I don't hear this with pissed off BMW, Audi, and MB owners..
12-17-2009, 07:27 AM
#25
Pro
Well, I don't want to be blunt but do the following: read the description on manufacturers web sites & frequent forums such as this one, then go to dealers and get quotes and test drives. Look closely at each dealership to find one that suits you too!
The TL is currently one of the "best bang for your buck" sport sedan in this segment. In order to keep it that way, Acura has to make decision as to want kind of customer they want to attract. If you want DVD and similar stuff, go for a SUV or minivan. You'll find some and they'll be cheaper than a 40K + $USD sport sedan.
The TL is currently one of the "best bang for your buck" sport sedan in this segment. In order to keep it that way, Acura has to make decision as to want kind of customer they want to attract. If you want DVD and similar stuff, go for a SUV or minivan. You'll find some and they'll be cheaper than a 40K + $USD sport sedan.
12-17-2009, 09:17 AM
#26
I thought that was fixed, but a few weeks later, I noticed the metal in the A-pillar, above the area where the broken weld was, had started to buckle. There were three creases forming in the A-pillar. On top of that, a new creaking noise cropped up, but this one was coming from the back of the car--and I'm not taking any chances in case there's another broken weld.
Monday will make three weeks since I dropped off the car for the fourth time, and it only has 4K miles on it.
12-17-2009, 10:24 AM
#27
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We're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
In order to meet increasing demands for legislated safety requirements, and in order to meet Honda's own Safety For Everyone standards, the cars get bigger sometimes, whether or not they get heavier.
In the specific case of the 4G TL, for example, the car meets two standards that are not required in the USA (yet).
These two standards are:
- A future requirement that the car hit a pedestrian at a certain speed head on, and the pedestrian's head is uninjured because of the front crush area that keeps the pedestrian's head off of the engine block. This requires more front overhang, and a high, blunt nose that many people have criticized.
- A future requirement for nonintrusion and safety with a high speed impact into a hard metal pole in certain conditions at a certain speed. This has added weight to the car in the form of side bolsters and different air bag systems.
... although it's too early to say, I suspect the TL won't hold up as well over the long haul.
I'll guess we'll find out soon. :-)
Mine's been back to the dealership for 40+ days since I bought it in July (currently without it for almost 3 weeks), and should I move forward with lemon law arbitration to get my money back, I'm buying the exact same car.
The TL is currently one of the "best bang for your buck" sport sedan in this segment. In order to keep it that way, Acura has to make decision as to want kind of customer they want to attract. If you want DVD and similar stuff, go for a SUV or minivan. You'll find some and they'll be cheaper than a 40K + $USD sport sedan.
12-17-2009, 10:45 AM
#28
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docboy,
That article was from 2003 but some of the issues being raised here date back to the 90's.
Lets just not talk about Acura and styling. It's not a good time. I realize you like the looks of the 4G TL but most people don't and that's all that matters right now.
I believe buyers avoided FWD them because it was long standing common knowledge that sports cars were RWD. Even though AWD might perform almost as well or better I think it remains to be seen whether drivers who are looking for RWD will fully accept AWD. I think more AWD "sports cars" will have to hit the market before we really know.
The new TL might or might not perform better than a particular 3 series or the G35, but you have to look at the big picture and not cherry pick in order to rationalize failure. Acura doesn't have a flag ship with a V8, and many luxury buyers demand a V8 because it represents the "best". Acura doesn't have a smaller sporty model the likes of the IS350 or the 3 series or the G37. Acura comes up short on both ends and ultimately appeals more to practical people who could be happy with a top end Toyota or a Honda (oh look, a TSX). They're lacking flare.
But opinion aside, Acura sales are lagging behind the other luxury marques. You can't simply point to one favorable review for one particular model and then continue to deny the reality of poor sales. Current sales trends show that people are connecting with the TSX (amazing value, practical daily driver), but the rest of the models are getting drug through the mud.
That article was from 2003 but some of the issues being raised here date back to the 90's.
Lets just not talk about Acura and styling. It's not a good time. I realize you like the looks of the 4G TL but most people don't and that's all that matters right now.
I believe buyers avoided FWD them because it was long standing common knowledge that sports cars were RWD. Even though AWD might perform almost as well or better I think it remains to be seen whether drivers who are looking for RWD will fully accept AWD. I think more AWD "sports cars" will have to hit the market before we really know.
The new TL might or might not perform better than a particular 3 series or the G35, but you have to look at the big picture and not cherry pick in order to rationalize failure. Acura doesn't have a flag ship with a V8, and many luxury buyers demand a V8 because it represents the "best". Acura doesn't have a smaller sporty model the likes of the IS350 or the 3 series or the G37. Acura comes up short on both ends and ultimately appeals more to practical people who could be happy with a top end Toyota or a Honda (oh look, a TSX). They're lacking flare.
But opinion aside, Acura sales are lagging behind the other luxury marques. You can't simply point to one favorable review for one particular model and then continue to deny the reality of poor sales. Current sales trends show that people are connecting with the TSX (amazing value, practical daily driver), but the rest of the models are getting drug through the mud.
Last edited by _Helios_; 12-17-2009 at 10:48 AM.
12-17-2009, 10:54 AM
#29
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Are you saying they will never make a small car again?
12-17-2009, 01:21 PM
#30
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ok, now that is some great discussion. Forget about performance versus luxury and everything in between. For a car that is 300+ horsepower and wrapped in great interior, this is luxury plus performance. As the OP who asked this question, I am still annoyed. Why would Acura NOT offer a DVD option in its top of the line 2010 TL?!
12-17-2009, 02:53 PM
#31
Instructor
They have already started. The production of the CR-Z will be the next small car from Honda or they may even brand this car as an Acura here in US.
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=866814
Also, like George already pointed out in his post, everyone in the industry is making the cars bigger as each new generation arrive. The best examples are the BMW cars. The current 3 is bigger than previous generations. The next 5 will be almost as big as the 7 series. In fact, Honda is the only car company I know of actively working on reducing the weight and size of the cars. Honda reportedly scrapped the original design of the next gen Civic and started to design a smaller car.
http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=868825
This article may answer some of the question. There will be a new entry model to maybe compete with the smaller IS or G37. Perhaps this new entry model will satisfy the enthusiast needs since the TSX and TL have moved up in the luxury segment. Still no RWD and V8 because it doesn't make since with the new higher fleet MPG requirement on the horizon. However, there will be a new flagship perhaps with retuned V6 or some kind of hybrid powertrain.
NPD isn't easy for cars and Honda has been relatively quiet for the past couple years. It will be interesting to see what Honda brings to the table.
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=866814
Also, like George already pointed out in his post, everyone in the industry is making the cars bigger as each new generation arrive. The best examples are the BMW cars. The current 3 is bigger than previous generations. The next 5 will be almost as big as the 7 series. In fact, Honda is the only car company I know of actively working on reducing the weight and size of the cars. Honda reportedly scrapped the original design of the next gen Civic and started to design a smaller car.
Originally Posted by _Helios_
Acura doesn't have a flag ship with a V8, and many luxury buyers demand a V8 because it represents the "best". Acura doesn't have a smaller sporty model the likes of the IS350 or the 3 series or the G37. Acura comes up short on both ends and ultimately appeals more to practical people who could be happy with a top end Toyota or a Honda (oh look, a TSX). They're lacking flare.
This article may answer some of the question. There will be a new entry model to maybe compete with the smaller IS or G37. Perhaps this new entry model will satisfy the enthusiast needs since the TSX and TL have moved up in the luxury segment. Still no RWD and V8 because it doesn't make since with the new higher fleet MPG requirement on the horizon. However, there will be a new flagship perhaps with retuned V6 or some kind of hybrid powertrain.
NPD isn't easy for cars and Honda has been relatively quiet for the past couple years. It will be interesting to see what Honda brings to the table.
12-17-2009, 03:42 PM
#32
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No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they'll never be able to go back to the Integra-sized double wishbone cars that everybody's pining for.
Right now there are plans for a smaller coupe, but I don't think we know if it's going to be a glorified McPherson Civic or a sort of TSX Performance Coupe wishbone car.
Personally I'd love to see a TSX Coupe with a J Motor and the excellent six speed that is in the TL. A Torsen axle would be mandatory, of course...that or SH-AWD.
:devil:
Right now there are plans for a smaller coupe, but I don't think we know if it's going to be a glorified McPherson Civic or a sort of TSX Performance Coupe wishbone car.
Personally I'd love to see a TSX Coupe with a J Motor and the excellent six speed that is in the TL. A Torsen axle would be mandatory, of course...that or SH-AWD.
:devil:
12-17-2009, 04:20 PM
#33
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dtc5,
I think it's pretty clear that Honda doesn't have to make all Acuras fat sedans. Whatever safety initiative is being used to justify this is to some extent optional on their part because as you mention they're producing the death-trap sized CR-Z. I'm not a fan of the Lexus IS series but that's more the size I would expect from a sports sedan, and the three series is nowhere near as large as the TSX let alone the TL. I just think I see some rationalizing going on here, making it look like Honda had no choice when they really did.
Thanks for linking to that news. I'm glad to hear that there will be a smaller vehicle in the lineup and I'd bet it will be a much nicer car than the RSX was. To me the lack of a V8 and RWD simply means the brand will appeal to more practical people for better or worse, and I think leans worse because a lot of practical people probably don't consider luxury practical in the first place. I think a luxury brand has to make some bold statements to get the right kind of customer.
The idea of luxury hybrid seems pretty niche because I'm sure there are some people who want both in one but I associate hybrid drivers as high minded conservation types and luxury buyers more as being self indulgent. I wouldn't think there is huge overlap.
"Smart luxury" sounds like a pretty good marketing angle, infinite degrees better than "advance".
I think it's pretty clear that Honda doesn't have to make all Acuras fat sedans. Whatever safety initiative is being used to justify this is to some extent optional on their part because as you mention they're producing the death-trap sized CR-Z. I'm not a fan of the Lexus IS series but that's more the size I would expect from a sports sedan, and the three series is nowhere near as large as the TSX let alone the TL. I just think I see some rationalizing going on here, making it look like Honda had no choice when they really did.
Thanks for linking to that news. I'm glad to hear that there will be a smaller vehicle in the lineup and I'd bet it will be a much nicer car than the RSX was. To me the lack of a V8 and RWD simply means the brand will appeal to more practical people for better or worse, and I think leans worse because a lot of practical people probably don't consider luxury practical in the first place. I think a luxury brand has to make some bold statements to get the right kind of customer.
The idea of luxury hybrid seems pretty niche because I'm sure there are some people who want both in one but I associate hybrid drivers as high minded conservation types and luxury buyers more as being self indulgent. I wouldn't think there is huge overlap.
"Smart luxury" sounds like a pretty good marketing angle, infinite degrees better than "advance".
12-17-2009, 04:36 PM
#34
2010 TL AWD 6MT: New King
ok, now that is some great discussion. Forget about performance versus luxury and everything in between. For a car that is 300+ horsepower and wrapped in great interior, this is luxury plus performance. As the OP who asked this question, I am still annoyed. Why would Acura NOT offer a DVD option in its top of the line 2010 TL?!
To be honest, I never thought of having DVD monitors in the headrests when I looked at the TL and its competitors.
I've looked at the MDX a few times, and I liken the DVD monitor for the rear passengers/kids. Who knows, in the future, I still may end up getting an MDX w/tech/entertainment.
Now that you mentioned it, it would nice to have integrated DVD monitors in the headrests. We solved that problem by getting a portable DVD player for the kid. Easy and cheap to replace, since they break so easily
I'm sure there are auto shops who will install DVD monitors in the headrests. You can do a google search and find a few places who sell them; here's one I found by random: http://www.eonon.com/
But I personally would not let the lack of DVD video option deter you from purchasing the TL.
12-17-2009, 04:37 PM
#35
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What I don't get is why Lexus offers MT for the IS250 but not the IS350 and Acura offers MT for the TSX I4 but not the V6 models. It seems counterintuitive that they would match the performance transmission with the lesser performance engine.
12-17-2009, 05:59 PM
#36
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At the moment there is a minor supply issue with the six speed manual. It's a very high quality, very strong unit...but it was intended to be put into the high performance J37 first.
It'll roll down to other J Motors as the need arises, as the cars change to make room in their profiles for it.
It'll roll down to other J Motors as the need arises, as the cars change to make room in their profiles for it.
12-18-2009, 01:19 PM
#37
Racer
I never considered Acura a "luxury marque". Honda may, but my previous three cars were Audis. They aren't really that similar, even at the same feature or near-price-point. The feel is different, the thunk of Audi doors vs the clang-like semi-thunk of the Acura, the more conservative German styling vs the boy-racer TL style, the low-end torque vs the nervous-twitch VTEC, ... it's just not the same.
12-18-2009, 07:12 PM
#39
Racer
How are you defining luxury? (Or was that just an automatic defense-of-Acura post on your part?
)
12-18-2009, 07:24 PM
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If a car that costs more than what most people make in a year (or two) and one that is priced more than many luxury models in the market place isn't called a luxury car, I don't know what is. Not to mention the fact that if most people is not able to buy it 100% outright (versus leasing and financing), it's considered a luxury in my books.